The James Bond Debate Thread - 216

BAIN123

0013 said:
The actitude sounds like Fleming's Bond but in two occasions Bond thought of suicide in his missions:
1. In Live and Let Die while being carried by Mr Big in the boat he thought of drowning Solitaire and then killing himself in order to escape the painfull death of being eated by the baracuradas and the sharks.
2. In Golfinger, when he was about to be cut in half, he remember of people holding their breath until dying as a solution to his "partition" problem.
So I'm gonna be controversial and say no, I desagree with the thesis. I think Fleming's Bond would keep the cyanide pill "just in case".

Actually thats a very convincing argument. Can I change my answer to disagree?

echo

0013 said:
The actitude sounds like Fleming's Bond but in two occasions Bond thought of suicide in his missions:
1. In Live and Let Die while being carried by Mr Big in the boat he thought of drowning Solitaire and then killing himself in order to escape the painfull death of being eated by the baracuradas and the sharks.
2. In Golfinger, when he was about to be cut in half, he remember of people holding their breath until dying as a solution to his "partition" problem.
So I'm gonna be controversial and say no, I desagree with the thesis. I think Fleming's Bond would keep the cyanide pill "just in case".

You are exceptionally well-informed, 0013.

echo said:

0013 said:
The actitude sounds like Fleming's Bond but in two occasions Bond thought of suicide in his missions:
1. In Live and Let Die while being carried by Mr Big in the boat he thought of drowning Solitaire and then killing himself in order to escape the painfull death of being eated by the baracuradas and the sharks.
2. In Golfinger, when he was about to be cut in half, he remember of people holding their breath until dying as a solution to his "partition" problem.
So I'm gonna be controversial and say no, I desagree with the thesis. I think Fleming's Bond would keep the cyanide pill "just in case".

You are exceptionally well-informed, 0013.

Well, thank you! It's just that I like too much those little details in the books that show a more mundane Bond. Like in Quantum of Solace (short story) when he says that despite he've done a mission against the Cuban rebels, if he could choose a side, he would've help them. Bond On His Castro's Secret Service!

CraigMooreOHMSS

BAIN123 said:

0BradyM0Bondfanatic7 said:

DarthDimi said:
THESIS 127

The fact that the DAD Bond threw away his cyanide long ago is entirely in the spirit of Fleming's Bond.

When is that mentioned??

When Bond is recovering on the ship and M comes in.

M: You had your cyanide
Bond: Thew it away years ago, what the hell is this all about!?

Would Fleming's Bond have thrown away his cyanide pill? Well if he had taken it we woudn't have had any more stories would we ;)

Agree (kind of)

Fleming's Bond did throw away the cyanide pill, in the novel FRWL.

CraigMooreOHMSS said:

BAIN123 said:

0BradyM0Bondfanatic7 said:

DarthDimi said:
THESIS 127

The fact that the DAD Bond threw away his cyanide long ago is entirely in the spirit of Fleming's Bond.

When is that mentioned??

When Bond is recovering on the ship and M comes in.

M: You had your cyanide
Bond: Thew it away years ago, what the hell is this all about!?

Would Fleming's Bond have thrown away his cyanide pill? Well if he had taken it we woudn't have had any more stories would we ;)

Agree (kind of)

Fleming's Bond did throw away the cyanide pill, in the novel FRWL.

I didn't remember it! Do you know in which chapter is it?

CraigMooreOHMSS

0013 said:

CraigMooreOHMSS said:

BAIN123 said:

0BradyM0Bondfanatic7 said:

DarthDimi said:
THESIS 127

The fact that the DAD Bond threw away his cyanide long ago is entirely in the spirit of Fleming's Bond.

When is that mentioned??

When Bond is recovering on the ship and M comes in.

M: You had your cyanide
Bond: Thew it away years ago, what the hell is this all about!?

Would Fleming's Bond have thrown away his cyanide pill? Well if he had taken it we woudn't have had any more stories would we ;)

Agree (kind of)

Fleming's Bond did throw away the cyanide pill, in the novel FRWL.

I didn't remember it! Do you know in which chapter is it?

I'm not sure, the book is around somewhere I shall try and find it and get back to you with an answer. It's been a while since I've read it, but I'm sure the case Major Boothroyd gives Bond has a cyanide pill in a secret compartment, which Bond subsequently throws away. I may be misremembering the case part but Bond definitely throws the pill away.

CraigMooreOHMSS said:

0013 said:

CraigMooreOHMSS said:

BAIN123 said:

0BradyM0Bondfanatic7 said:

DarthDimi said:
THESIS 127

The fact that the DAD Bond threw away his cyanide long ago is entirely in the spirit of Fleming's Bond.

When is that mentioned??

When Bond is recovering on the ship and M comes in.

M: You had your cyanide
Bond: Thew it away years ago, what the hell is this all about!?

Would Fleming's Bond have thrown away his cyanide pill? Well if he had taken it we woudn't have had any more stories would we ;)

Agree (kind of)

Fleming's Bond did throw away the cyanide pill, in the novel FRWL.

I didn't remember it! Do you know in which chapter is it?

I'm not sure, the book is around somewhere I shall try and find it and get back to you with an answer. It's been a while since I've read it, but I'm sure the case Major Boothroyd gives Bond has a cyanide pill in a secret compartment, which Bond subsequently throws away. I may be misremembering the case part but Bond definitely throws the pill away.

And you are absolutely right:
"Despite Bond's efforts to laugh them out of it, Q's craftsmen had insisted on building a hidden compartment into the handle of the case, which, by pressure at a certain point, would deliver a cyanide death-pill into the palm of his hand. (Directly he had taken delivery of the case, Bond had washed this pill down the lavatory.)"
From Russia with Love, chapter 13, page 113 of my Penguin 2003 edition.

The evidence is undeniable and I can't do nothing but to admit my mystake. So Bond only thinks of suicide on extreme cirmcunstances, but not in advance.

DarthDimi

This thesis talk is turning in some interesting results. Thank you, gentlemen for the information, particularly with respect to FRWL.

CraigMooreOHMSS

0013 said:

CraigMooreOHMSS said:

0013 said:

CraigMooreOHMSS said:

BAIN123 said:

0BradyM0Bondfanatic7 said:

DarthDimi said:
THESIS 127
The fact that the DAD Bond threw away his cyanide long ago is entirely in the spirit of Fleming's Bond.

When is that mentioned??

When Bond is recovering on the ship and M comes in.

M: You had your cyanide
Bond: Thew it away years ago, what the hell is this all about!?

Would Fleming's Bond have thrown away his cyanide pill? Well if he had taken it we woudn't have had any more stories would we ;)

Agree (kind of)

Fleming's Bond did throw away the cyanide pill, in the novel FRWL.

I didn't remember it! Do you know in which chapter is it?

I'm not sure, the book is around somewhere I shall try and find it and get back to you with an answer. It's been a while since I've read it, but I'm sure the case Major Boothroyd gives Bond has a cyanide pill in a secret compartment, which Bond subsequently throws away. I may be misremembering the case part but Bond definitely throws the pill away.

And you are absolutely right:
"Despite Bond's efforts to laugh them out of it, Q's craftsmen had insisted on building a hidden compartment into the handle of the case, which, by pressure at a certain point, would deliver a cyanide death-pill into the palm of his hand. (Directly he had taken delivery of the case, Bond had washed this pill down the lavatory.)"
From Russia with Love, chapter 13, page 113 of my Penguin 2003 edition.

The evidence is undeniable and I can't do nothing but to admit my mystake. So Bond only thinks of suicide on extreme cirmcunstances, but not in advance.

In that regard I wouldn't call it a mistake, merely further proof of how human Bond is. Fleming made him so subtly flawed you almost don't realise it. Like you say, Bond only thinks of suicide in the most extreme cases, when he is forced to abandon his pride, the pride he shows in those scenes in FRWL when he flushes the cyanide pill away.

As a sidenote, I always liked that reference in Die Another Day. People often forget that amongst the nonsense CGI and sex puns, there's some genuinely decent stuff there. If only the other references were as neat as that one.

0BradyM0Bondfanatic7

DarthDimi said:
@0Brady, you need to watch DAD more often, sir. ;-)

Now then, do you both agree with the thesis or not? :)

I can't do that to myself. In a way, my TV that DAD is playing on could then he held accountable in a court of law of assisted suicide.

Anyway, I don't find the Bond of CR to be one to take himself out of the game like a cowardly Russian FSB agent. Just in CR alone we see the great drive Bond has to survive, and the strong will to pull through very traumatic events and obstacles. So, I agree with the thesis.

Tracy

TSWLM 35th.......

Kerim

I agree with the thesis, but I wish the cyanide pill was given to Lee Tamadori.

0BradyM0Bondfanatic7

Kerim said:
I agree with the thesis, but I wish the cyanide pill was given to Lee Tamadori.

Very facetious, but so very true. :))

BAIN123

And you are absolutely right:
"Despite Bond's efforts to laugh them out of it, Q's craftsmen had insisted on building a hidden compartment into the handle of the case, which, by pressure at a certain point, would deliver a cyanide death-pill into the palm of his hand. (Directly he had taken delivery of the case, Bond had washed this pill down the lavatory.)"
From Russia with Love, chapter 13, page 113 of my Penguin 2003 edition.

Wow...can't argue with that :-?

I'd like to point out the earlier thesis that "Brosnan was at his most Fleming-esque in DAD" :P

So...can I change it back to agree

Final answer

DarthDimi

Tracy said:
TSWLM 35th.......

What does this mean?
/:)

TheWizardOfIce

DarthDimi said:

Tracy said:
TSWLM 35th.......

What does this mean?
/:)

Presume it is a reference to TSWLM 35th anniversary (1977 + 35 = 2012). God alone knows why its been posted here though.

DarthDimi

My thoughts exactly. Speaking of the cyanide... :-S

thelivingroyale

Agree. It's a shame DAD had such a bad second half because it had Brosnans best performance.

CraigMooreOHMSS

thelivingroyale said:
Agree. It's a shame DAD had such a bad second half because it had Brosnans best performance.

Every silver lining has a cloud, I guess.

Baltimore_007

Thesis is quite correct again this time. I don't like the release at all, but some of the references Brosnan makes are actually quite well done, but it's nowhere near enough to save an overall very poor release for me. Thesis is accurate

'Abandoned stations for abandoned agents'.... actually quite good!, shame there wasn't more of that in abundance

DoubleOhhSeven

DarthDimi said:
THESIS 127

The fact that the DAD Bond threw away his cyanide long ago is entirely in the spirit of Fleming's Bond.

Agree. Best line of the movie.

DarthDimi

THESIS 128

Craig's Bond would work better with the Sir Miles Messervy "M" of the novels, than with the motherly, lecturing M as portrayed by Judy Dench.

thelivingroyale

Agree. I really don't like the M/Craig relationship. It's one of the reasons CR isn't as high on my list as it should be. The whole mother relationship is stupid, the trust issues are boring, and she's overused (cmon, it was original in TWINE, but now can't she just go back to sitting in an office?).

The M focused plot is one of the only things I don't like the sound of in SF. I preferred Brosnan/Dench to Craig/Dench.

0BradyM0Bondfanatic7

Disagree. I enjoy Judi's M interpretation, and it is nice for Bond to have a motherly figure in his life. I think this aspect of their relationship will be more examined in Skyfall.

CraigMooreOHMSS

Disagree. I preferred the chemistry Dench had with Brosnan, but she has worked well with Craig too so far. The trust issues provided the whole basis for their relationship, Miles Messervy wouldn't have had the same effect on Bond.

RogueAgent

Thesis 127 Agree, its a great line!

Thesis 128 Disagree. I like there chemistry. They just need to cut the amount of screen time M has. Lee was brilliant with Connery and Moore without question for me.

Kerim

Disagree as well. I love the maternal chemistry between Dench and Craig. Keep in mind that Craig is the inexperienced Bond and needs a mentor and that Bond was an orphan and may never have had the parental dynamic he needed growing up.

CommanderRoss

IIRC Sir Miles was some sort of father figure as well, so Dench's M just follows that line. And tbh I think the dynamics between Craigs'Bond and Dench's M are getting more interesting. He actually is winning her trust. I like the fact that they're ' getting to know' eachother slowly but surely. SF in that sense wil lbe very interesting.

Oh, and one thing that struck me in the discussion of T126. No, not all people are greedy. wanting, or expecting to get recognition for the work you've done (in money or in fame, or any other way of recognition) isn't greed. Greed to my mind is wanting more then you deserve, and that was McClory to the full. It was right for him to fight for his recognition, it was wrong to keep on battling after he got what he deserved.

Baltimore_007

I don't have a problem with Dench as M, while Bond feels a bit hen pecked at times by her, especially in Tomorrow Never Dies, I think for the most part she does a good job and was far better than the awful Robert Brown before her

I haven't read much of the novels, I'm a much bigger fan of Movie Bond I'm afraid, but what I can ascertain of the two Craig releases, I'm going with Dench. Thesis seems wrong maybe

PrinceKamalKhan

DarthDimi said:
THESIS 128

Craig's Bond would work better with the Sir Miles Messervy "M" of the novels, than with the motherly, lecturing M as portrayed by Judy Dench.

Agree. I want Fleming's M back.

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