Who should/could be a Bond actor?

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  • Posts: 2,915
    Univex wrote: »
    Ethnicity is NOT Nationality, ffs.

    Then casting a British actor for the part doesn't mean casting a white one. Today it is more important that Bond be British and male then white, because today those are far more important markers of Bond's identity than his skin color. The world has changed and the series has always changed with it. There are far more important factors in choosing the next Bond than the color of the actor's skin.

  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,196
    Revelator wrote: »
    Univex wrote: »
    Ethnicity is NOT Nationality, ffs.

    Then casting a British actor for the part doesn't mean casting a white one. Today it is more important that Bond be British and male then white, because today those are far more important markers of Bond's identity than his skin color. The world has changed and the series has always changed with it. There are far more important factors in choosing the next Bond than the color of the actor's skin.

    And that's one opinion, as is feeling that Bond should remain a Caucasian; it's a preference not a prejudice.
  • edited July 2019 Posts: 6,709
    Revelator wrote: »
    Univex wrote: »
    Ethnicity is NOT Nationality, ffs.

    Then casting a British actor for the part doesn't mean casting a white one. Today it is more important that Bond be British and male then white, because today those are far more important markers of Bond's identity than his skin color. The world has changed and the series has always changed with it. There are far more important factors in choosing the next Bond than the color of the actor's skin.

    Then you didn't understand me. I'm saying one should respect the markers the writer gave to his character. Some markers can be faked, some can not. Faked, not changed. Cast an American actor to play an English character, if you will. But the character must not be American. It must be English. The character is white. You cannot cast a black actor to play a white character. You can cast a Swedish or American actress to play Lara Croft (Vikander and Jolie) but the character is a white woman. They can't cast Lupita Nyong'o to play Lara Croft because she cannot play a white woman. She can play an english one, but not a white one. The same way you can't cast Pierce Brosnan to play Django, but he can pretend to be an American character, like say, a Texan. I can't, for the life of me, understand why this is hard to grasp.
  • edited July 2019 Posts: 17,744
    If there's one black actor I think could have made a good Bond back in the day (if he hadn't starred in Bond films already), it's Colin Salmon. I've always enjoyed his portrayal of Charles Robinson.

    Tomorrow-Never-Dies-Charles-Robinson-M-Colin-Salmon-Judi-Dench.png
  • Posts: 16,149
    If there's one black actor I think could have made a good Bond back in the day (if he hadn't starred in Bond films already), it's Colin Salmon. I've always enjoyed his portrayal of Charles Robinson.

    Tomorrow-Never-Dies-Charles-Robinson-M-Colin-Salmon-Judi-Dench.png

    He'd have been my choice as well. Very dashing and suave.
    This discussion has got me to ponder: hypothetically if Bond were cast with an actor of a different ethnic background, would continuation authors then change Bond's ethnicity in the novels to match the current actor? Officially making the literary Bond a person of African, Asian, South American etc descent? I recall Benson making M female to match the trend in the Brosnan films.
  • Posts: 727
    Robert Pattinson as Bond would be proper bonkers.
  • Posts: 2,915
    Univex wrote: »
    Then you didn't understand me. I'm saying one should respect the markers the writer gave to his character...Cast an American actor to play an English character, if you will. But the character must not be American. It must be English. The character is white. You cannot cast a black actor to play a white character.

    James Bond is white because he was British and at the time he was created one implied the other. Today it is accepted that someone can be non-white and British. It isn't disrespecting Fleming to cast a non-white actor in the role if that actor is British and proud of it. That is more important to Bond's core identity than skin color, which is no longer a mark of Britishness.
    Casting a non-white actor as Bond wouldn't work if you were planning an period adaptation of Fleming's Live and Let Die, but that won't be happening anytime soon. Bond movies are 21st century movies made for a modern audience in multi-cultural and multi-racial countries. I am not one of those Guardian editorializes who insist the next Bond must be non-white. But if he was it wouldn't bother me either. There are some aspects of a character's identity that are constant and some that grow less relevant as times change, especially if you're making movies that are not set in the past.
  • edited July 2019 Posts: 11,425
    Univex wrote: »
    Revelator wrote: »
    Univex wrote: »
    Ethnicity is NOT Nationality, ffs.

    Then casting a British actor for the part doesn't mean casting a white one. Today it is more important that Bond be British and male then white, because today those are far more important markers of Bond's identity than his skin color. The world has changed and the series has always changed with it. There are far more important factors in choosing the next Bond than the color of the actor's skin.

    Then you didn't understand me. I'm saying one should respect the markers the writer gave to his character. Some markers can be faked, some can not. Faked, not changed. Cast an American actor to play an English character, if you will. But the character must not be American. It must be English. The character is white. You cannot cast a black actor to play a white character. You can cast a Swedish or American actress to play Lara Croft (Vikander and Jolie) but the character is a white woman. They can't cast Lupita Nyong'o to play Lara Croft because she cannot play a white woman. She can play an english one, but not a white one. The same way you can't cast Pierce Brosnan to play Django, but he can pretend to be an American character, like say, a Texan. I can't, for the life of me, understand why this is hard to grasp.

    Until relatively recently it was standard practice for Hollywood to make many British literary characters American when they hit the big screen. Disney did it for years. The belief was that US audiences were less likely to go and see a film with British accents. Even Winny the Pooh became a US citizen.

    Believe it or not J.K. Rowling had to fight quite hard with Warner Brothers to keep Harry Potter British. It was one of her red lines when selling the movie rights.

    Until Black Panther Hollywood also struggled to get its head around the idea of a film with a predominantly black cast being a commercial smash. Black actors meant minority interest as far as the studios were concerned.

    There are no hard and fast rules. I have no doubt there will be a black Bond one day. And when it happens people will wonder what all the fuss was about.

  • Posts: 5,767
    It depends if the producers want Bond to be a subliminal symbol for a commonwealth (which could make sense even if the commonwealth as such doesn't exist anymore), or if they want him to be an am assador of Great Britain.
  • edited July 2019 Posts: 11,425
    So you can't be an ambassador for Great Britain if you're black? Interesting. We seem to have entered a wormhole taking us back to the mid 1970s.

    There have been black Britons since at least the 17th century - doubtless longer. How long do their descendants have to wait before they're recognised as British?

    And just to add to my previous point about Bond casting. I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that with producers other than the Britophile Cubby and Harry, there would have been a significant risk that Bond would have been turned into an American CIA agent. We know this could have happened because when CBS adapted Casino Royale for the TV in the States, they made Bond American and Leiter a Brit. Obviously it would have been much worse had they made Bond a black British character... much, much worse. ;)
  • edited July 2019 Posts: 1,661
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    If there's one black actor I think could have made a good Bond back in the day (if he hadn't starred in Bond films already), it's Colin Salmon. I've always enjoyed his portrayal of Charles Robinson.

    Tomorrow-Never-Dies-Charles-Robinson-M-Colin-Salmon-Judi-Dench.png

    He'd have been my choice as well. Very dashing and suave.
    This discussion has got me to ponder: hypothetically if Bond were cast with an actor of a different ethnic background, would continuation authors then change Bond's ethnicity in the novels to match the current actor? Officially making the literary Bond a person of African, Asian, South American etc descent? I recall Benson making M female to match the trend in the Brosnan films.

    Pierce Brosnan suggested Colin Salmon as a potential Bond...
    13 Apr 2013
    Pierce Brosnan has suggested that Colin Salmon would be his pick to become the first black James Bond. He said: "I've always thrown Colin Salmon's name in the mix. He's somebody I have worked with closely over the years. He would be outstanding and I think it would be absolutely essential."

    I think Salmon's contribution to the franchise didn't help his chances. Can't imagine Eon would want Salmon as Bond. He played a supporting character so I doubt they'd have wanted to give him the Bond part. Would have been unlikely.



  • Posts: 6,709
    Right... BTW, Bond doesn't have to be tall or fit or savvy or suave or action oriented or a womaniser or like sports cars and baccarat to be BRITISH. So why should he be all those things. Those things are not markers for britishness. Not in nowadays. Same thing for skin colour, right? What matters is he is British, none of the other characteristics the author wrote him with matter because this is not 1952. These are your arguments, right?

    Sorry, but they don't fly for me. If I write a character in a given way, I want it to be depicted in that fashion forever. Writers strive on eternity, not context. Only poor writers or intervention writers strive on context.

    But listen, you guys champion for whomever you want. That's what being a fan is all about.

    Oh well, here's a chap that could be Bond.

    NTAImpactAward2.jpg
  • Posts: 17,744
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    If there's one black actor I think could have made a good Bond back in the day (if he hadn't starred in Bond films already), it's Colin Salmon. I've always enjoyed his portrayal of Charles Robinson.

    Tomorrow-Never-Dies-Charles-Robinson-M-Colin-Salmon-Judi-Dench.png

    He'd have been my choice as well. Very dashing and suave.
    This discussion has got me to ponder: hypothetically if Bond were cast with an actor of a different ethnic background, would continuation authors then change Bond's ethnicity in the novels to match the current actor? Officially making the literary Bond a person of African, Asian, South American etc descent? I recall Benson making M female to match the trend in the Brosnan films.

    Hypothetically, that would maybe depend on whether it's present day set Bond novels or not. Anthony Horowitz writes his novels within the Fleming timeframe, and I couldn't imagine a novel set in the 50s/60s featuring a Bond with a different ethnic background.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Let me put it this way. Would Henry Cavill or Idris Elba have made a better Bond? Does the fact that Cavill is white outweigh the fact that his acting is more wooden than an antique side table?
  • NeverOnTheFirmsTimeNeverOnTheFirmsTime A plane tree'd square off the Kings Road
    Posts: 34
    Getafix wrote: »
    Let me put it this way. Would Henry Cavill or Idris Elba have made a better Bond? Does the fact that Cavill is white outweigh the fact that his acting is more wooden than an antique side table?
    Couldn't agree more re Cavill's 'acting' ability 😂😂
    Whenever I have the misfortune to watch Cavill in action I'm reminded of the famous exchange between Dennis Pennis and Hugh Grant, where (commenting on Grant's 'woody' acting) Pennis asked him: 'How do you get yourself psyched up, I mean, do you go into the forest and sort of stare at a few trees?' 😂😂
  • edited July 2019 Posts: 6,709
    That depends, who would make for a better Kyûzô, Sean Connery or Hiroyuki Sanada?

    Who would make a better modern day Poirot? David Suchet or John Malkovich?

    One would be deprived of its ethnicity, and the other would be deprived of its defining characteristics. So, obviously, no matter when the time and circumstances of the adaptations, Sanada and Suchet would be better suited for the characters.

    For the sake of it, who would have made a better Bond, a good actor who looks nothing like the character, or a reasonable actor who is its spitting image?

    I know who I'd choose. But hey, @Getafix, I thought you were in favour of a good Bond film, not an award winning one (Skyfall). Oh, btw, I've seen this and I thought of you, old pal ().

    Thought you'd enjoy it. Lets not derail the thread, though ;)

    So, to answer your question, Cavill, no doubt about that. Now, I'd love to see a good spy thriller with Elba, I really would, as I really like the guy. But he doesn't look like Bond, just as, say Hiroyuki Sanada doesn't either.
  • Posts: 5,767
    Getafix wrote: »
    So you can't be an ambassador for Great Britain if you're black? Interesting. We seem to have entered a wormhole taking us back to the mid 1970s.

    There have been black Britons since at least the 17th century - doubtless longer. How long do their descendants have to wait before they're recognised as British?
    I thought my post made it clear that of course you can be black if you're an ambassador of Great Britain. I'm baffled that you interpreted it in another way.
    If you're a symbol for the commonwealth on the other hand it doesn't make too much sense if you're black.
  • Posts: 9,843
    Univex wrote: »
    Right... BTW, Bond doesn't have to be tall or fit or savvy or suave or action oriented or a womaniser or like sports cars and baccarat to be BRITISH. So why should he be all those things. Those things are not markers for britishness. Not in nowadays. Same thing for skin colour, right? What matters is he is British, none of the other characteristics the author wrote him with matter because this is not 1952. These are your arguments, right?

    Sorry, but they don't fly for me. If I write a character in a given way, I want it to be depicted in that fashion forever. Writers strive on eternity, not context. Only poor writers or intervention writers strive on context.

    But listen, you guys champion for whomever you want. That's what being a fan is all about.

    Oh well, here's a chap that could be Bond.

    NTAImpactAward2.jpg

    I would prefer him over Idris Elba
  • Posts: 5,767
    Univex wrote: »
    Sorry, but they don't fly for me. If I write a character in a given way, I want it to be depicted in that fashion forever. Writers strive on eternity, not context. Only poor writers or intervention writers strive on context.
    ]
    Not sure if I would go that far, but for sure one thing that is easily overlooked is that, no matter how much Fleming's Bond might have been a man of his time and age, and no matter how much he was very much a common man, the whole concept of James Bond was at no time realistic. So we shouldn't try too hard to bring Bond up to date, as that would over time only wash out Bond's appeal.

  • edited July 2019 Posts: 3,333
    Revelator wrote: »
    Univex wrote: »
    Then you didn't understand me. I'm saying one should respect the markers the writer gave to his character...Cast an American actor to play an English character, if you will. But the character must not be American. It must be English. The character is white. You cannot cast a black actor to play a white character.

    James Bond is white because he was British and at the time he was created one implied the other. Today it is accepted that someone can be non-white and British. It isn't disrespecting Fleming to cast a non-white actor in the role if that actor is British and proud of it. That is more important to Bond's core identity than skin color, which is no longer a mark of Britishness.
    Casting a non-white actor as Bond wouldn't work if you were planning an period adaptation of Fleming's Live and Let Die, but that won't be happening anytime soon. Bond movies are 21st century movies made for a modern audience in multi-cultural and multi-racial countries. I am not one of those Guardian editorializes who insist the next Bond must be non-white. But if he was it wouldn't bother me either. There are some aspects of a character's identity that are constant and some that grow less relevant as times change, especially if you're making movies that are not set in the past.
    But James Bond is English, not British, hence why Connery was required to act like an English gentleman in Dr. No and not Scottish. Assuming that you're from this country I'll make the assumption that you know that Britain refers politically to the whole of England, Scotland and Wales, including their smaller off shore islands. There's no such national identity as British. Ask someone from Scotland or Wales if they're English and you'll get a resounding "no" because they're Scottish or Welsh. Why do you think Dalton was required to sound English and not Welsh? Being English is an ethnic and cultural identity all of its own. Calling yourself British tends to be a requirement when filling out your passport details when entering another country. However, if you're from England, you refer to yourself as English. Though I have noticed a recent social trend of people from different ethnic cultures referring to themselves as British and not English. You see, even they know the difference.

    If you're talking about the cultural makeup of London and England changing and losing its English character then that's a different point entirely and not related to Fleming's original character as written on the page. Also, it's not as if Fleming was writing Bond as a white working class Englishman, either. He was very specific when he stated his white upper-class English roots. Using Connery's working-class Scottishness as a reason to cast someone today from African descent is ridiculous as it is political. That's one helluva leap in logic to make. Why? Because it's not a stretch to accept that if Connery can adopt the correct mannerisms and style of the white upper-class, he can make it believable that he's an English gentleman from Eton. I realise you didn't say that @Revelator and that was another member, but I don't really want to answer everyone individually. I'm sure @Getafix prefers to call himself a European rather than English as that's the politics that tends to blight our country nowadays.

    Your own argument is that because our country is now multi-cultural and diverse, we should accept ethnic changes to our own folk heroes, probably because the BBC have been adopting this now self-imposed rule recently in their dramas. The term multicultural refers to many separate cultures co-existing together, though it still makes the distinction of there being individual cultures to begin with. I put it to you that being white and upper-class has its own distinct culture that is entirely separate even to our own white working-class, which is why Ray Winstone or Danny Dyer wouldn't make for a very convincing Bond. Connery was different, he was groomed by the refined Englishman Terrence Young, as @Univex eloquently stated, and Connery just about pulled it off. Fast-forward 50 years and Bond has been played by 6 different actors and all of them of the same ethnic make-up and well established they are too, but they played him as an English gentleman. Connery, Lazenby, Moore, Dalton and Brosnan were in fact playing the exact same character, and "no" it wasn't a code name. The only way you can change Bond to someone from a Sierra Leonean background is if you buy into the code name theory and no longer have the character as an upper-class Englishman. It really comes down to that. If that's how you want your Bond to be portrayed then I guess that's fine, but you'll be in the minority, and cast doubt on your own sincerity as a bonafide Bond fan.

    If you really want to bring other ethnic groups into the equation then perhaps Bond should be played by someone of Indian (Asian) descent as they happen to make up far more of the population than Afro-Caribbeans do, if that's your argument. I really don't know what is your argument to be honest.
  • Posts: 6,709
    Thank you @bondsum! Clarity, finally!
  • Posts: 12,526
    Univex wrote: »
    Right... BTW, Bond doesn't have to be tall or fit or savvy or suave or action oriented or a womaniser or like sports cars and baccarat to be BRITISH. So why should he be all those things. Those things are not markers for britishness. Not in nowadays. Same thing for skin colour, right? What matters is he is British, none of the other characteristics the author wrote him with matter because this is not 1952. These are your arguments, right?

    Sorry, but they don't fly for me. If I write a character in a given way, I want it to be depicted in that fashion forever. Writers strive on eternity, not context. Only poor writers or intervention writers strive on context.

    But listen, you guys champion for whomever you want. That's what being a fan is all about.

    Oh well, here's a chap that could be Bond.

    NTAImpactAward2.jpg

    I saw that he has filmed his final series of Poldark too? Only time will tell?
  • edited July 2019 Posts: 11,425
    What are you talking about?

    Connery is clearly Scottish in all his films. Connery couldn't pass as English if he tried! He's so Scottish that Fleming created a Scottish-Swiss ancestry for Bond.

    Yes Fleming conceived of Bond as English but when Cubby and Harry cast Mishter Bond, Fleming changed his ethnicity.

    Keep up!

    Dalton was never really Welsh either - that's total nonsense. I think he might have been born there but he grew up in Derbyshire and went to school in Manchester I think. His natural accent is north west English. It comes out a lot in LTK.

    And yes I'm very happy to describe myself as European, as well as British and English. What on earth is your problem with that? Aside from anything else they're statements of fact. It's an unavoidable geographical truth that the UK is a European nation.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,767
    As long as the next Bond actor or actress self-identifies as (and is presented as) a tall white heterosexual male I'm good with it.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,247
    Getafix wrote: »
    What are you talking about?

    Connery is clearly Scottish in all his films. Connery couldn't pass as English if he tried! He's so Scottish that Fleming created a Scottish-Swiss ancestry for Bond.

    Yes Fleming conceived of Bond as English but when Cubby and Harry cast Mishter Bond, Fleming changed his ethnicity.

    Keep up!

    Dalton was never really Welsh either - that's total nonsense. I think he might have been born there but he grew up in Derbyshire and went to school in Manchester I think. His natural accent is north west English. It comes out a lot in LTK.

    And yes I'm very happy to describe myself as European, as well as British and English. What on earth is your problem with that? Aside from anything else they're statements of fact. It's an unavoidable geographical truth that the UK is a European nation.

    No he didn't. He changed his background story. Still, in all the books he's got dark hair, blue eyes, he's handsome in a ruthless way, about six feet tall and has a scar on his right cheek.

    Now some of that is superficial (scar, eye-colour), but it makes a heck of a lot of difference if he'd be changed in a 72 y/o lady from nagorno karabach. Would the biggest problem be beeing a lady? Beeing 72 y/o? Or his ethnic background. Already with Craig people were complaining he looked like a Russian thug and the man's English himself.

    Could, or perhaps should there be a carribean-background 005 or 009? Why not? But why change the protagonist so fundamentally that all connection to the past is lost? That makes no sense at all.
  • Posts: 6,709
    Getafix wrote: »
    What are you talking about?

    Connery is clearly Scottish in all his films. Connery couldn't pass as English if he tried! He's so Scottish that Fleming created a Scottish-Swiss ancestry for Bond.

    Yes Fleming conceived of Bond as English but when Cubby and Harry cast Mishter Bond, Fleming changed his ethnicity.

    Keep up!

    Dalton was never really Welsh either - that's total nonsense. I think he might have been born there but he grew up in Derbyshire and went to school in Manchester I think. His natural accent is north west English. It comes out a lot in LTK.

    And yes I'm very happy to describe myself as European, as well as British and English. What on earth is your problem with that? Aside from anything else they're statements of fact. It's an unavoidable geographical truth that the UK is a European nation.

    No he didn't. He changed his background story. Still, in all the books he's got dark hair, blue eyes, he's handsome in a ruthless way, about six feet tall and has a scar on his right cheek.

    Now some of that is superficial (scar, eye-colour), but it makes a heck of a lot of difference if he'd be changed in a 72 y/o lady from nagorno karabach. Would the biggest problem be beeing a lady? Beeing 72 y/o? Or his ethnic background. Already with Craig people were complaining he looked like a Russian thug and the man's English himself.

    Could, or perhaps should there be a carribean-background 005 or 009? Why not? But why change the protagonist so fundamentally that all connection to the past is lost? That makes no sense at all.

    Couldn't agree more, @CommanderRoss.
  • edited July 2019 Posts: 2,915
    Technically Bond is not even English--he's half Scottish and half Swiss (which is in fact a partial change in ethnicity). And Connery was cast partly because the American producers wanted someone tougher than the stereotypical English cinema characterizations of the time. Even American reviewers picked up on Connery's Scottish accent (though some thought it was Irish!). Terence Young helped make sure Connery didn't look or sound working class, but he didn't eliminate Connery's Scottishness.

    I am willing to bet that Eton's student population has not been all-white for many decades now, and that there is class variation among Britain's minority population. So the class argument against casting a non-white actor doesn't work. I wouldn't mind if Bond was played by an English actor of Indian (Asian) descent, since that demographic is indeed more numerous than that of Afro-Caribbeans. Class and nationality can and often do transcend race, and skin color is no longer an instant marker of class or nationality in England or America.
  • edited July 2019 Posts: 11,425
    Getafix wrote: »
    What are you talking about?

    Connery is clearly Scottish in all his films. Connery couldn't pass as English if he tried! He's so Scottish that Fleming created a Scottish-Swiss ancestry for Bond.

    Yes Fleming conceived of Bond as English but when Cubby and Harry cast Mishter Bond, Fleming changed his ethnicity.

    Keep up!

    Dalton was never really Welsh either - that's total nonsense. I think he might have been born there but he grew up in Derbyshire and went to school in Manchester I think. His natural accent is north west English. It comes out a lot in LTK.

    And yes I'm very happy to describe myself as European, as well as British and English. What on earth is your problem with that? Aside from anything else they're statements of fact. It's an unavoidable geographical truth that the UK is a European nation.

    No he didn't. He changed his background story. Still, in all the books he's got dark hair, blue eyes, he's handsome in a ruthless way, about six feet tall and has a scar on his right cheek.

    Now some of that is superficial (scar, eye-colour), but it makes a heck of a lot of difference if he'd be changed in a 72 y/o lady from nagorno karabach. Would the biggest problem be beeing a lady? Beeing 72 y/o? Or his ethnic background. Already with Craig people were complaining he looked like a Russian thug and the man's English himself.

    Could, or perhaps should there be a carribean-background 005 or 009? Why not? But why change the protagonist so fundamentally that all connection to the past is lost? That makes no sense at all.

    As at @Revelator pointed out, yes he did.

    Fleming's Bond is technically not even English. Scots Swiss. And that's because Fleming created a back story to keep pace with EON's really quite extensive reimagining of the character.

    So for Fleming 'purists' the news is just in - they've been tweaking the character in the films since day one.

    In fact screen Bond is so not English that out of the 6 actors to play him only 2 were English (if you buy the 'Welsh' Dalton thing).
  • JeremyBondonJeremyBondon Seeking out odd jobs with Oddjob @Tangier
    edited July 2019 Posts: 1,318
    Well well well gents, ask and thou shalt receive. Ross Poldark to channel his inner James Bond in the new Poldark season. Could this mean anything? ;) Aidan Turner ahoy:

    https://www.digitalspy.com/tv/a28231970/poldark-series-5-aidan-turner-james-bond-style-spy/

    giphy.gif

    Can't remember Craig looking as intense/menacing as this. Well perhaps when his bits got smashed in CR...
  • edited July 2019 Posts: 17,744
    Looks like he's channeling his inner angry Dalton in that GIF above. ;-)
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