Who should/could be a Bond actor?

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  • DrClatterhandDrClatterhand United Kingdom
    Posts: 349
    Univex wrote: »
    Univex wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    I take @00Agent comments on board, tradition is key to the Bond franchise. The vital elements have to be there – you need Bond, the villain, the girls, the car, the action, the locations – but it doesn’t stop you changing and evolving those elements.

    Bond as a character wouldn’t fundamental change if you changed his race. The character of Bond – a suave, cool, enigmatic, sophisticated, dangerous, charming killer with a taste for the finer things – doesn’t change if you make him black.

    The best examples I can pose are the castings of Naomie Harris and Jeffrey Wright….both actors played roles previously played by white actors. The tradition associated with those characters didn’t change with those castings. They are still Leiter and Moneypenny.

    01%2BNaomie%2BHarris%2Bas%2BEve%2BMoneypenny.jpg
    06%2BJeffrey%2BWright%2Bas%2BFelix%2BLeiter.jpg

    The same would be the case with Bond.

    However, I really don’t think 2020 is the right time to announce a black Bond. Maybe back in 2005 they could have got away with it. But not today with the left and right so politicised. It isn’t the right time. Howver…………….I think generally speaking if Idris Elba got cast, no one would care. I think people almost are willing it to happen.


    Thanks for the vid, @suavejmf!

    And...all my black friends think the same. I've got an Angolan friend that is a massive James bond fan and he says the exact same thing. I've got a 48yo friend from Mumbai who is fanatical about the novels and the films and he says that changing Bond's race is stupid. My wife, who is sort of an activist for human rights, often says that decharacterisation of intelectual property for the sake of diversity and/or gender quotas is as stupid as it gets and a symptom of an unintelligent society who has lost a grip on creativity. Just create new and interesting stuff based on current times. Don't go changing historical characters and fictional characters just for the sake of proving a current point. Do it now. Create something in the now. Something fresh and to the point. Don't hijack the past, learn from it sure, but don't hijack things that always worked and that are dear to thousands of people.

    Well said!

    I still don't know what people have got against trying to find an actor that closely resembles the character that Fleming wrote? Is having a dark haired white actor that difficult to comprehend playing the part of Bond?

    If people find it that offensive for a white actor to play the part of Bond, then I don't believe they are true Bond fans.

    Did Fleming get it so wrong in his description of Bond that it needs radically changing drastically?

    Exactly. And it seems as though you can't say someone isn't a true Bond fan here. It seems that is taboo. If some member comes along saying Bond is just a superspy that runs around in a tuxedo and shoots missiles from his wristwatch, we can't comment negatively on it, and we can't tell him he doesn't understand Bond or that he isn't a true fan.Apparently civility in forums is nodding in agreement to all opinions.

    No, a so called fan who says Bond should be black is not a true Bond fan. A so called fan who says the cinematic Bond owes nothing to Fleming is not a true Bond fan. A so called fan who thinks Bond is just a suave superspy with gadgets and cars is not a true Bond fan. Why? Because he bloody well doesn't understand the character, its literary background, its decades long adaptation to screen and times, and the significance of an old world agent, a relic of the cold war, still relevant today, but not a product of today.

    Bond should be a 50s spy living in the XXI century, because he's old school, he's a relic. Actually even in the 50s he was already living in the past, with a 30s car and many filthy old habits. The times change around him, he doesn't.

    Facially, Bond resembles the composer, singer and actor Hoagy Carmichael. In Casino Royale, Vesper Lynd remarks, "Bond reminds me rather of Hoagy Carmichael, but there is something cold and ruthless." Likewise, in Moonraker, Special Branch Officer Gala Brand thinks that Bond is "certainly good-looking ... Rather like Hoagy Carmichael in a way. That black hair falling down over the right eyebrow. Much the same bones. But there was something a bit cruel in the mouth, and the eyes were cold."

    In the novels (notably From Russia, with Love), Bond's physical description has always been consistent: slim build; a three-inch long, thin vertical scar on his right cheek; blue-grey eyes; a "cruel" mouth; short, black hair, a comma of which rests on his forehead. Physically he is described as being 6 feet in height and 168 lb in weight. After Casino Royale, Bond also had a faint scar of the Russian cyrillic letter "Ш" (SH) (for Shpion: "Spy") on the back of one of his hands, carved by a SMERSH agent.

    This IS James Bond. Just find someone who looks the part and can act. How difficult can that be?

    Excellent post, dear @Univex

    It's extremely difficult. An actor really needs to understand the character and take ownership of it. Brosnan was like a greatest hits Bond, and his performance screamed that he was acting. Craig is very natural and completely owns the part. When Craig came in I almost felt a little sorry for Brosnan, as his performance of the character was made to look like something out of an episode of The A-Team. Only Connery, Craig and Moore completely owned Bond. Dalton was too earnest, Brosnan was a lightweight confection, and Lazenby couldn't act his way out of a paper bag. OHMSS is still a fantastic film, by the way.
  • RoadphillRoadphill United Kingdom
    Posts: 984
    One wonders, if EON could get their act together and get back to a two/three year turnaround, the Michael Fassbender would be the perfect choice.

    If we are talking Craig era gaps, then he too old, alas
  • Posts: 6,709
    alas, I think many ships have sailed and many more will soon follow. I don’t see them making the next one until maybe 2025. By then most of the so called candidates will be history, if they continue the obnoxious trend of making the heroes green and then creating faux archs for them to follow. We’ll see.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    edited January 2020 Posts: 5,131
    Univex wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    I take @00Agent comments on board, tradition is key to the Bond franchise. The vital elements have to be there – you need Bond, the villain, the girls, the car, the action, the locations – but it doesn’t stop you changing and evolving those elements.

    Bond as a character wouldn’t fundamental change if you changed his race. The character of Bond – a suave, cool, enigmatic, sophisticated, dangerous, charming killer with a taste for the finer things – doesn’t change if you make him black.

    The best examples I can pose are the castings of Naomie Harris and Jeffrey Wright….both actors played roles previously played by white actors. The tradition associated with those characters didn’t change with those castings. They are still Leiter and Moneypenny.

    01%2BNaomie%2BHarris%2Bas%2BEve%2BMoneypenny.jpg
    06%2BJeffrey%2BWright%2Bas%2BFelix%2BLeiter.jpg

    The same would be the case with Bond.

    However, I really don’t think 2020 is the right time to announce a black Bond. Maybe back in 2005 they could have got away with it. But not today with the left and right so politicised. It isn’t the right time. Howver…………….I think generally speaking if Idris Elba got cast, no one would care. I think people almost are willing it to happen.


    Thanks for the vid, @suavejmf!

    And...all my black friends think the same. I've got an Angolan friend that is a massive James bond fan and he says the exact same thing. I've got a 48yo friend from Mumbai who is fanatical about the novels and the films and he says that changing Bond's race is stupid. My wife, who is sort of an activist for human rights, often says that decharacterisation of intelectual property for the sake of diversity and/or gender quotas is as stupid as it gets and a symptom of an unintelligent society who has lost a grip on creativity. Just create new and interesting stuff based on current times. Don't go changing historical characters and fictional characters just for the sake of proving a current point. Do it now. Create something in the now. Something fresh and to the point. Don't hijack the past, learn from it sure, but don't hijack things that always worked and that are dear to thousands of people.

    Well said!

    I still don't know what people have got against trying to find an actor that closely resembles the character that Fleming wrote? Is having a dark haired white actor that difficult to comprehend playing the part of Bond?

    If people find it that offensive for a white actor to play the part of Bond, then I don't believe they are true Bond fans.

    Did Fleming get it so wrong in his description of Bond that it needs radically changing drastically?

    Imagine the reaction if a remake of Shaft was made with a white male lead.

    Well it wouldn’t even get ‘put forward’ would it? Because Shaft is a cultural icon. But saying Bond should be white is immediately racist apparently! That video I posted shows how ludicrous it is to change Flemings creation/ character.

    Another point is that the film credits always say/ state ‘as IAN FLEMING’S James Bond 007’.....if Bond isn’t white they need to stop that as it won’t be anymore.
  • suavejmf wrote: »
    Univex wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    I take @00Agent comments on board, tradition is key to the Bond franchise. The vital elements have to be there – you need Bond, the villain, the girls, the car, the action, the locations – but it doesn’t stop you changing and evolving those elements.

    Bond as a character wouldn’t fundamental change if you changed his race. The character of Bond – a suave, cool, enigmatic, sophisticated, dangerous, charming killer with a taste for the finer things – doesn’t change if you make him black.

    The best examples I can pose are the castings of Naomie Harris and Jeffrey Wright….both actors played roles previously played by white actors. The tradition associated with those characters didn’t change with those castings. They are still Leiter and Moneypenny.

    01%2BNaomie%2BHarris%2Bas%2BEve%2BMoneypenny.jpg
    06%2BJeffrey%2BWright%2Bas%2BFelix%2BLeiter.jpg

    The same would be the case with Bond.

    However, I really don’t think 2020 is the right time to announce a black Bond. Maybe back in 2005 they could have got away with it. But not today with the left and right so politicised. It isn’t the right time. Howver…………….I think generally speaking if Idris Elba got cast, no one would care. I think people almost are willing it to happen.


    Thanks for the vid, @suavejmf!

    And...all my black friends think the same. I've got an Angolan friend that is a massive James bond fan and he says the exact same thing. I've got a 48yo friend from Mumbai who is fanatical about the novels and the films and he says that changing Bond's race is stupid. My wife, who is sort of an activist for human rights, often says that decharacterisation of intelectual property for the sake of diversity and/or gender quotas is as stupid as it gets and a symptom of an unintelligent society who has lost a grip on creativity. Just create new and interesting stuff based on current times. Don't go changing historical characters and fictional characters just for the sake of proving a current point. Do it now. Create something in the now. Something fresh and to the point. Don't hijack the past, learn from it sure, but don't hijack things that always worked and that are dear to thousands of people.

    Well said!

    I still don't know what people have got against trying to find an actor that closely resembles the character that Fleming wrote? Is having a dark haired white actor that difficult to comprehend playing the part of Bond?

    If people find it that offensive for a white actor to play the part of Bond, then I don't believe they are true Bond fans.

    Did Fleming get it so wrong in his description of Bond that it needs radically changing drastically?

    Imagine the reaction if a remake of Shaft was made with a white male lead.

    Well it wouldn’t even get ‘put forward’ would it? Because Shaft is a cultural icon. But saying Bond should be white is immediately racist apparently! That video I posted shows how ludicrous it is to change Flemings creation/ character.

    Another point is that the film credits always say/ state ‘as IAN FLEMING’S James Bond 007’.....if Bond isn’t white they need to stop that as it won’t be anymore.

    IF they ever is a non-white actor to play Bond that doesn't mean the character of James Bond isn't still white. You are playing James Bond....a lighter skin multi-racial actor (think the skin tone of Vin Diesal) could still pull off playing James Bond. Remember this is acting.
  • edited January 2020 Posts: 3,327
    parkert5 wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Univex wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    I take @00Agent comments on board, tradition is key to the Bond franchise. The vital elements have to be there – you need Bond, the villain, the girls, the car, the action, the locations – but it doesn’t stop you changing and evolving those elements.

    Bond as a character wouldn’t fundamental change if you changed his race. The character of Bond – a suave, cool, enigmatic, sophisticated, dangerous, charming killer with a taste for the finer things – doesn’t change if you make him black.

    The best examples I can pose are the castings of Naomie Harris and Jeffrey Wright….both actors played roles previously played by white actors. The tradition associated with those characters didn’t change with those castings. They are still Leiter and Moneypenny.

    01%2BNaomie%2BHarris%2Bas%2BEve%2BMoneypenny.jpg
    06%2BJeffrey%2BWright%2Bas%2BFelix%2BLeiter.jpg

    The same would be the case with Bond.

    However, I really don’t think 2020 is the right time to announce a black Bond. Maybe back in 2005 they could have got away with it. But not today with the left and right so politicised. It isn’t the right time. Howver…………….I think generally speaking if Idris Elba got cast, no one would care. I think people almost are willing it to happen.


    Thanks for the vid, @suavejmf!

    And...all my black friends think the same. I've got an Angolan friend that is a massive James bond fan and he says the exact same thing. I've got a 48yo friend from Mumbai who is fanatical about the novels and the films and he says that changing Bond's race is stupid. My wife, who is sort of an activist for human rights, often says that decharacterisation of intelectual property for the sake of diversity and/or gender quotas is as stupid as it gets and a symptom of an unintelligent society who has lost a grip on creativity. Just create new and interesting stuff based on current times. Don't go changing historical characters and fictional characters just for the sake of proving a current point. Do it now. Create something in the now. Something fresh and to the point. Don't hijack the past, learn from it sure, but don't hijack things that always worked and that are dear to thousands of people.

    Well said!

    I still don't know what people have got against trying to find an actor that closely resembles the character that Fleming wrote? Is having a dark haired white actor that difficult to comprehend playing the part of Bond?

    If people find it that offensive for a white actor to play the part of Bond, then I don't believe they are true Bond fans.

    Did Fleming get it so wrong in his description of Bond that it needs radically changing drastically?

    Imagine the reaction if a remake of Shaft was made with a white male lead.

    Well it wouldn’t even get ‘put forward’ would it? Because Shaft is a cultural icon. But saying Bond should be white is immediately racist apparently! That video I posted shows how ludicrous it is to change Flemings creation/ character.

    Another point is that the film credits always say/ state ‘as IAN FLEMING’S James Bond 007’.....if Bond isn’t white they need to stop that as it won’t be anymore.

    IF they ever is a non-white actor to play Bond that doesn't mean the character of James Bond isn't still white. You are playing James Bond....a lighter skin multi-racial actor (think the skin tone of Vin Diesal) could still pull off playing James Bond. Remember this is acting.

    Then why bother? Wouldn't it be easier just to pick an actor that is white?

    Or are we saying there are no decent white actors anymore on planet earth, so the only choice left is to go for a multi-racial or black actor?
  • parkert5 wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Univex wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    I take @00Agent comments on board, tradition is key to the Bond franchise. The vital elements have to be there – you need Bond, the villain, the girls, the car, the action, the locations – but it doesn’t stop you changing and evolving those elements.

    Bond as a character wouldn’t fundamental change if you changed his race. The character of Bond – a suave, cool, enigmatic, sophisticated, dangerous, charming killer with a taste for the finer things – doesn’t change if you make him black.

    The best examples I can pose are the castings of Naomie Harris and Jeffrey Wright….both actors played roles previously played by white actors. The tradition associated with those characters didn’t change with those castings. They are still Leiter and Moneypenny.

    01%2BNaomie%2BHarris%2Bas%2BEve%2BMoneypenny.jpg
    06%2BJeffrey%2BWright%2Bas%2BFelix%2BLeiter.jpg

    The same would be the case with Bond.

    However, I really don’t think 2020 is the right time to announce a black Bond. Maybe back in 2005 they could have got away with it. But not today with the left and right so politicised. It isn’t the right time. Howver…………….I think generally speaking if Idris Elba got cast, no one would care. I think people almost are willing it to happen.


    Thanks for the vid, @suavejmf!

    And...all my black friends think the same. I've got an Angolan friend that is a massive James bond fan and he says the exact same thing. I've got a 48yo friend from Mumbai who is fanatical about the novels and the films and he says that changing Bond's race is stupid. My wife, who is sort of an activist for human rights, often says that decharacterisation of intelectual property for the sake of diversity and/or gender quotas is as stupid as it gets and a symptom of an unintelligent society who has lost a grip on creativity. Just create new and interesting stuff based on current times. Don't go changing historical characters and fictional characters just for the sake of proving a current point. Do it now. Create something in the now. Something fresh and to the point. Don't hijack the past, learn from it sure, but don't hijack things that always worked and that are dear to thousands of people.

    Well said!

    I still don't know what people have got against trying to find an actor that closely resembles the character that Fleming wrote? Is having a dark haired white actor that difficult to comprehend playing the part of Bond?

    If people find it that offensive for a white actor to play the part of Bond, then I don't believe they are true Bond fans.

    Did Fleming get it so wrong in his description of Bond that it needs radically changing drastically?

    Imagine the reaction if a remake of Shaft was made with a white male lead.

    Well it wouldn’t even get ‘put forward’ would it? Because Shaft is a cultural icon. But saying Bond should be white is immediately racist apparently! That video I posted shows how ludicrous it is to change Flemings creation/ character.

    Another point is that the film credits always say/ state ‘as IAN FLEMING’S James Bond 007’.....if Bond isn’t white they need to stop that as it won’t be anymore.

    IF they ever is a non-white actor to play Bond that doesn't mean the character of James Bond isn't still white. You are playing James Bond....a lighter skin multi-racial actor (think the skin tone of Vin Diesal) could still pull off playing James Bond. Remember this is acting.

    Then why bother? Wouldn't it be easier just to pick an actor that is white?

    Or are we saying there are no decent white actors anymore on planet earth, so the only choice left is to go for a multi-racial or black actor?


    Why bother? If they person screentested is the best actor and looks the part then they should get the role regardless of thier actual race looks matter more than race.

    Would it b easier to pick a white actor? Yes it would be easier...But a inferior actor shouldn't be picked just because of thier actual race.

    We are not saying that there are no decent white actors on the planet anymore and we are not left with only going for a multi-racial, black actor or person of color. Im just stating that that race of the actor playing Bond doesn't mean the race of James Bond in the movie changes because it is acting. So is Lazenby's Bond Australian while Connery is Scottish while Craig's is English?
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    parkert5 wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Univex wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    I take @00Agent comments on board, tradition is key to the Bond franchise. The vital elements have to be there – you need Bond, the villain, the girls, the car, the action, the locations – but it doesn’t stop you changing and evolving those elements.

    Bond as a character wouldn’t fundamental change if you changed his race. The character of Bond – a suave, cool, enigmatic, sophisticated, dangerous, charming killer with a taste for the finer things – doesn’t change if you make him black.

    The best examples I can pose are the castings of Naomie Harris and Jeffrey Wright….both actors played roles previously played by white actors. The tradition associated with those characters didn’t change with those castings. They are still Leiter and Moneypenny.

    01%2BNaomie%2BHarris%2Bas%2BEve%2BMoneypenny.jpg
    06%2BJeffrey%2BWright%2Bas%2BFelix%2BLeiter.jpg

    The same would be the case with Bond.

    However, I really don’t think 2020 is the right time to announce a black Bond. Maybe back in 2005 they could have got away with it. But not today with the left and right so politicised. It isn’t the right time. Howver…………….I think generally speaking if Idris Elba got cast, no one would care. I think people almost are willing it to happen.


    Thanks for the vid, @suavejmf!

    And...all my black friends think the same. I've got an Angolan friend that is a massive James bond fan and he says the exact same thing. I've got a 48yo friend from Mumbai who is fanatical about the novels and the films and he says that changing Bond's race is stupid. My wife, who is sort of an activist for human rights, often says that decharacterisation of intelectual property for the sake of diversity and/or gender quotas is as stupid as it gets and a symptom of an unintelligent society who has lost a grip on creativity. Just create new and interesting stuff based on current times. Don't go changing historical characters and fictional characters just for the sake of proving a current point. Do it now. Create something in the now. Something fresh and to the point. Don't hijack the past, learn from it sure, but don't hijack things that always worked and that are dear to thousands of people.

    Well said!

    I still don't know what people have got against trying to find an actor that closely resembles the character that Fleming wrote? Is having a dark haired white actor that difficult to comprehend playing the part of Bond?

    If people find it that offensive for a white actor to play the part of Bond, then I don't believe they are true Bond fans.

    Did Fleming get it so wrong in his description of Bond that it needs radically changing drastically?

    Imagine the reaction if a remake of Shaft was made with a white male lead.

    Well it wouldn’t even get ‘put forward’ would it? Because Shaft is a cultural icon. But saying Bond should be white is immediately racist apparently! That video I posted shows how ludicrous it is to change Flemings creation/ character.

    Another point is that the film credits always say/ state ‘as IAN FLEMING’S James Bond 007’.....if Bond isn’t white they need to stop that as it won’t be anymore.

    IF they ever is a non-white actor to play Bond that doesn't mean the character of James Bond isn't still white. You are playing James Bond....a lighter skin multi-racial actor (think the skin tone of Vin Diesal) could still pull off playing James Bond. Remember this is acting.

    Yes it does. The character of Bond is a white male. That is not my opinion, it is a fact. Ian Fleming said so and all the films/ cartoon strips portray him as such. What you are talking about is re-inventing the character as mixed race.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    edited January 2020 Posts: 5,131
    parkert5 wrote: »
    parkert5 wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Univex wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    I take @00Agent comments on board, tradition is key to the Bond franchise. The vital elements have to be there – you need Bond, the villain, the girls, the car, the action, the locations – but it doesn’t stop you changing and evolving those elements.

    Bond as a character wouldn’t fundamental change if you changed his race. The character of Bond – a suave, cool, enigmatic, sophisticated, dangerous, charming killer with a taste for the finer things – doesn’t change if you make him black.

    The best examples I can pose are the castings of Naomie Harris and Jeffrey Wright….both actors played roles previously played by white actors. The tradition associated with those characters didn’t change with those castings. They are still Leiter and Moneypenny.

    01%2BNaomie%2BHarris%2Bas%2BEve%2BMoneypenny.jpg
    06%2BJeffrey%2BWright%2Bas%2BFelix%2BLeiter.jpg

    The same would be the case with Bond.

    However, I really don’t think 2020 is the right time to announce a black Bond. Maybe back in 2005 they could have got away with it. But not today with the left and right so politicised. It isn’t the right time. Howver…………….I think generally speaking if Idris Elba got cast, no one would care. I think people almost are willing it to happen.


    Thanks for the vid, @suavejmf!

    And...all my black friends think the same. I've got an Angolan friend that is a massive James bond fan and he says the exact same thing. I've got a 48yo friend from Mumbai who is fanatical about the novels and the films and he says that changing Bond's race is stupid. My wife, who is sort of an activist for human rights, often says that decharacterisation of intelectual property for the sake of diversity and/or gender quotas is as stupid as it gets and a symptom of an unintelligent society who has lost a grip on creativity. Just create new and interesting stuff based on current times. Don't go changing historical characters and fictional characters just for the sake of proving a current point. Do it now. Create something in the now. Something fresh and to the point. Don't hijack the past, learn from it sure, but don't hijack things that always worked and that are dear to thousands of people.

    Well said!

    I still don't know what people have got against trying to find an actor that closely resembles the character that Fleming wrote? Is having a dark haired white actor that difficult to comprehend playing the part of Bond?

    If people find it that offensive for a white actor to play the part of Bond, then I don't believe they are true Bond fans.

    Did Fleming get it so wrong in his description of Bond that it needs radically changing drastically?

    Imagine the reaction if a remake of Shaft was made with a white male lead.

    Well it wouldn’t even get ‘put forward’ would it? Because Shaft is a cultural icon. But saying Bond should be white is immediately racist apparently! That video I posted shows how ludicrous it is to change Flemings creation/ character.

    Another point is that the film credits always say/ state ‘as IAN FLEMING’S James Bond 007’.....if Bond isn’t white they need to stop that as it won’t be anymore.

    IF they ever is a non-white actor to play Bond that doesn't mean the character of James Bond isn't still white. You are playing James Bond....a lighter skin multi-racial actor (think the skin tone of Vin Diesal) could still pull off playing James Bond. Remember this is acting.

    Then why bother? Wouldn't it be easier just to pick an actor that is white?

    Or are we saying there are no decent white actors anymore on planet earth, so the only choice left is to go for a multi-racial or black actor?


    Why bother? If they person screentested is the best actor and looks the part then they should get the role regardless of thier actual race looks matter more than race.

    Would it b easier to pick a white actor? Yes it would be easier...But a inferior actor shouldn't be picked just because of thier actual race.

    We are not saying that there are no decent white actors on the planet anymore and we are not left with only going for a multi-racial, black actor or person of color. Im just stating that that race of the actor playing Bond doesn't mean the race of James Bond in the movie changes because it is acting. So is Lazenby's Bond Australian while Connery is Scottish while Craig's is English?

    Why bother? Because a none white actor doesn't look the part. Again, the character of Bond is a white male. That is not my opinion, it is a fact. Ian Fleming said so and all the films/ cartoon strips portray him as such. If you are black/ mixed race etc it is impossible to play a white character. It's like casting Colin Firth as Shaft or David Niven as The Black Panther/ Blade/ Axel Foley etc. I.E. Ridiculous.

    Lazenby, Connery and Craig are all white males.
  • DeerAtTheGatesDeerAtTheGates Belgium
    Posts: 524
    suavejmf wrote: »
    parkert5 wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Univex wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    I take @00Agent comments on board, tradition is key to the Bond franchise. The vital elements have to be there – you need Bond, the villain, the girls, the car, the action, the locations – but it doesn’t stop you changing and evolving those elements.

    Bond as a character wouldn’t fundamental change if you changed his race. The character of Bond – a suave, cool, enigmatic, sophisticated, dangerous, charming killer with a taste for the finer things – doesn’t change if you make him black.

    The best examples I can pose are the castings of Naomie Harris and Jeffrey Wright….both actors played roles previously played by white actors. The tradition associated with those characters didn’t change with those castings. They are still Leiter and Moneypenny.

    01%2BNaomie%2BHarris%2Bas%2BEve%2BMoneypenny.jpg
    06%2BJeffrey%2BWright%2Bas%2BFelix%2BLeiter.jpg

    The same would be the case with Bond.

    However, I really don’t think 2020 is the right time to announce a black Bond. Maybe back in 2005 they could have got away with it. But not today with the left and right so politicised. It isn’t the right time. Howver…………….I think generally speaking if Idris Elba got cast, no one would care. I think people almost are willing it to happen.


    Thanks for the vid, @suavejmf!

    And...all my black friends think the same. I've got an Angolan friend that is a massive James bond fan and he says the exact same thing. I've got a 48yo friend from Mumbai who is fanatical about the novels and the films and he says that changing Bond's race is stupid. My wife, who is sort of an activist for human rights, often says that decharacterisation of intelectual property for the sake of diversity and/or gender quotas is as stupid as it gets and a symptom of an unintelligent society who has lost a grip on creativity. Just create new and interesting stuff based on current times. Don't go changing historical characters and fictional characters just for the sake of proving a current point. Do it now. Create something in the now. Something fresh and to the point. Don't hijack the past, learn from it sure, but don't hijack things that always worked and that are dear to thousands of people.

    Well said!

    I still don't know what people have got against trying to find an actor that closely resembles the character that Fleming wrote? Is having a dark haired white actor that difficult to comprehend playing the part of Bond?

    If people find it that offensive for a white actor to play the part of Bond, then I don't believe they are true Bond fans.

    Did Fleming get it so wrong in his description of Bond that it needs radically changing drastically?

    Imagine the reaction if a remake of Shaft was made with a white male lead.

    Well it wouldn’t even get ‘put forward’ would it? Because Shaft is a cultural icon. But saying Bond should be white is immediately racist apparently! That video I posted shows how ludicrous it is to change Flemings creation/ character.

    Another point is that the film credits always say/ state ‘as IAN FLEMING’S James Bond 007’.....if Bond isn’t white they need to stop that as it won’t be anymore.

    IF they ever is a non-white actor to play Bond that doesn't mean the character of James Bond isn't still white. You are playing James Bond....a lighter skin multi-racial actor (think the skin tone of Vin Diesal) could still pull off playing James Bond. Remember this is acting.

    Yes it does. The character of Bond is a white male. That is not my opinion, it is a fact. Ian Fleming said so and all the films/ cartoon strips portray him as such. What you are talking about is re-inventing the character as mixed race.

    And there's where the difference between Book Bond and Film Bond come into play. Yes, Ian Fleming wrote Bond as a white male. But he doesn't decide who gets to play the 7th incarnation of Bond on the big screen. Barbara Broccoli and Michael G. Wilson do. And if they want to screentest actors that aren't white, they are free to do so. If they at the end of that process come to the conclusion that the best man to play the role is a non-white actor, they are free to cast him.

    BB and MGW are the ones who decide how Bond looks in the film universe. It is entirely separate from what Ian Fleming wrote. Or it has become that way.

    And frankly, thank goodness for that. I doubt Fleming would've approved Bond taking orders from a female boss, or that his best buddy at the CIA was someone else than a white American. But by doing something totally different from Fleming, BB and MGW gave us two actors who redefined the roles of M and Felix Leiter. And I trust the producers of this film series to do the thing that is best for the series to move forward.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    edited January 2020 Posts: 5,131
    suavejmf wrote: »
    parkert5 wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Univex wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    I take @00Agent comments on board, tradition is key to the Bond franchise. The vital elements have to be there – you need Bond, the villain, the girls, the car, the action, the locations – but it doesn’t stop you changing and evolving those elements.

    Bond as a character wouldn’t fundamental change if you changed his race. The character of Bond – a suave, cool, enigmatic, sophisticated, dangerous, charming killer with a taste for the finer things – doesn’t change if you make him black.

    The best examples I can pose are the castings of Naomie Harris and Jeffrey Wright….both actors played roles previously played by white actors. The tradition associated with those characters didn’t change with those castings. They are still Leiter and Moneypenny.

    01%2BNaomie%2BHarris%2Bas%2BEve%2BMoneypenny.jpg
    06%2BJeffrey%2BWright%2Bas%2BFelix%2BLeiter.jpg

    The same would be the case with Bond.

    However, I really don’t think 2020 is the right time to announce a black Bond. Maybe back in 2005 they could have got away with it. But not today with the left and right so politicised. It isn’t the right time. Howver…………….I think generally speaking if Idris Elba got cast, no one would care. I think people almost are willing it to happen.


    Thanks for the vid, @suavejmf!

    And...all my black friends think the same. I've got an Angolan friend that is a massive James bond fan and he says the exact same thing. I've got a 48yo friend from Mumbai who is fanatical about the novels and the films and he says that changing Bond's race is stupid. My wife, who is sort of an activist for human rights, often says that decharacterisation of intelectual property for the sake of diversity and/or gender quotas is as stupid as it gets and a symptom of an unintelligent society who has lost a grip on creativity. Just create new and interesting stuff based on current times. Don't go changing historical characters and fictional characters just for the sake of proving a current point. Do it now. Create something in the now. Something fresh and to the point. Don't hijack the past, learn from it sure, but don't hijack things that always worked and that are dear to thousands of people.

    Well said!

    I still don't know what people have got against trying to find an actor that closely resembles the character that Fleming wrote? Is having a dark haired white actor that difficult to comprehend playing the part of Bond?

    If people find it that offensive for a white actor to play the part of Bond, then I don't believe they are true Bond fans.

    Did Fleming get it so wrong in his description of Bond that it needs radically changing drastically?

    Imagine the reaction if a remake of Shaft was made with a white male lead.

    Well it wouldn’t even get ‘put forward’ would it? Because Shaft is a cultural icon. But saying Bond should be white is immediately racist apparently! That video I posted shows how ludicrous it is to change Flemings creation/ character.

    Another point is that the film credits always say/ state ‘as IAN FLEMING’S James Bond 007’.....if Bond isn’t white they need to stop that as it won’t be anymore.

    IF they ever is a non-white actor to play Bond that doesn't mean the character of James Bond isn't still white. You are playing James Bond....a lighter skin multi-racial actor (think the skin tone of Vin Diesal) could still pull off playing James Bond. Remember this is acting.

    Yes it does. The character of Bond is a white male. That is not my opinion, it is a fact. Ian Fleming said so and all the films/ cartoon strips portray him as such. What you are talking about is re-inventing the character as mixed race.

    And there's where the difference between Book Bond and Film Bond come into play. Yes, Ian Fleming wrote Bond as a white male. But he doesn't decide who gets to play the 7th incarnation of Bond on the big screen. Barbara Broccoli and Michael G. Wilson do. And if they want to screentest actors that aren't white, they are free to do so. If they at the end of that process come to the conclusion that the best man to play the role is a non-white actor, they are free to cast him.

    BB and MGW are the ones who decide how Bond looks in the film universe. It is entirely separate from what Ian Fleming wrote. Or it has become that way.

    And frankly, thank goodness for that. I doubt Fleming would've approved Bond taking orders from a female boss, or that his best buddy at the CIA was someone else than a white American. But by doing something totally different from Fleming, BB and MGW gave us two actors who redefined the roles of M and Felix Leiter. And I trust the producers of this film series to do the thing that is best for the series to move forward.

    But with the character of bond the producers have always ‘gone back to Fleming’ . With the exception of Daniel’s blonde hair, which is of little consequence. Furthermore, the film series has still set the precedent of Bond being white for nearly 60 years. Would you cast Bad Boys 3 (Out next week) with Jude Law and High Grant? No.....because that would be stupid. Because the lead characters are black men.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,196
    Bad Boys 3 with Jude Law and High Grant, brilliant. 😁
  • DeerAtTheGatesDeerAtTheGates Belgium
    Posts: 524
    suavejmf wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    parkert5 wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Univex wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    I take @00Agent comments on board, tradition is key to the Bond franchise. The vital elements have to be there – you need Bond, the villain, the girls, the car, the action, the locations – but it doesn’t stop you changing and evolving those elements.

    Bond as a character wouldn’t fundamental change if you changed his race. The character of Bond – a suave, cool, enigmatic, sophisticated, dangerous, charming killer with a taste for the finer things – doesn’t change if you make him black.

    The best examples I can pose are the castings of Naomie Harris and Jeffrey Wright….both actors played roles previously played by white actors. The tradition associated with those characters didn’t change with those castings. They are still Leiter and Moneypenny.

    01%2BNaomie%2BHarris%2Bas%2BEve%2BMoneypenny.jpg
    06%2BJeffrey%2BWright%2Bas%2BFelix%2BLeiter.jpg

    The same would be the case with Bond.

    However, I really don’t think 2020 is the right time to announce a black Bond. Maybe back in 2005 they could have got away with it. But not today with the left and right so politicised. It isn’t the right time. Howver…………….I think generally speaking if Idris Elba got cast, no one would care. I think people almost are willing it to happen.


    Thanks for the vid, @suavejmf!

    And...all my black friends think the same. I've got an Angolan friend that is a massive James bond fan and he says the exact same thing. I've got a 48yo friend from Mumbai who is fanatical about the novels and the films and he says that changing Bond's race is stupid. My wife, who is sort of an activist for human rights, often says that decharacterisation of intelectual property for the sake of diversity and/or gender quotas is as stupid as it gets and a symptom of an unintelligent society who has lost a grip on creativity. Just create new and interesting stuff based on current times. Don't go changing historical characters and fictional characters just for the sake of proving a current point. Do it now. Create something in the now. Something fresh and to the point. Don't hijack the past, learn from it sure, but don't hijack things that always worked and that are dear to thousands of people.

    Well said!

    I still don't know what people have got against trying to find an actor that closely resembles the character that Fleming wrote? Is having a dark haired white actor that difficult to comprehend playing the part of Bond?

    If people find it that offensive for a white actor to play the part of Bond, then I don't believe they are true Bond fans.

    Did Fleming get it so wrong in his description of Bond that it needs radically changing drastically?

    Imagine the reaction if a remake of Shaft was made with a white male lead.

    Well it wouldn’t even get ‘put forward’ would it? Because Shaft is a cultural icon. But saying Bond should be white is immediately racist apparently! That video I posted shows how ludicrous it is to change Flemings creation/ character.

    Another point is that the film credits always say/ state ‘as IAN FLEMING’S James Bond 007’.....if Bond isn’t white they need to stop that as it won’t be anymore.

    IF they ever is a non-white actor to play Bond that doesn't mean the character of James Bond isn't still white. You are playing James Bond....a lighter skin multi-racial actor (think the skin tone of Vin Diesal) could still pull off playing James Bond. Remember this is acting.

    Yes it does. The character of Bond is a white male. That is not my opinion, it is a fact. Ian Fleming said so and all the films/ cartoon strips portray him as such. What you are talking about is re-inventing the character as mixed race.

    And there's where the difference between Book Bond and Film Bond come into play. Yes, Ian Fleming wrote Bond as a white male. But he doesn't decide who gets to play the 7th incarnation of Bond on the big screen. Barbara Broccoli and Michael G. Wilson do. And if they want to screentest actors that aren't white, they are free to do so. If they at the end of that process come to the conclusion that the best man to play the role is a non-white actor, they are free to cast him.

    BB and MGW are the ones who decide how Bond looks in the film universe. It is entirely separate from what Ian Fleming wrote. Or it has become that way.

    And frankly, thank goodness for that. I doubt Fleming would've approved Bond taking orders from a female boss, or that his best buddy at the CIA was someone else than a white American. But by doing something totally different from Fleming, BB and MGW gave us two actors who redefined the roles of M and Felix Leiter. And I trust the producers of this film series to do the thing that is best for the series to move forward.

    But with the character of bond the producers have always ‘gone back to Fleming’ . With the exception of Daniel’s blonde hair, which is of little consequence. Furthermore, the film series has still set the precedent of Bond being white for nearly 60 years. Would you cast Bad Boys 3 (Out next week) with Jude Law and High Grant? No.....because that would be stupid. Because the lead characters are black men.

    But then I have to ask you, where do you draw the line, and why?
    So it's okay for the films to deviate from the source material when it comes to Bond's hair colour. Length too, presumably. A black Bond is too far for you.
    But is a female M okay? A black Felix Leiter? A black Moneypenny? Someone other than Bond being 007? If Bond marries Swann in NTTD, is it okay for her to become Mrs. Bond, and not Tracy?

    What I'm trying to say, the producers have deviated from Book Bond for quite a long time now, but when is Bond not Bond anymore? The films are already not 100% true to what Fleming wrote. Why is a non-white Bond too far, but previous alterations okay?
  • I don't believe there is anything such as a 'true fan' - simply put, you buy your ticket for the film like anyone else, your money is as good as the next person.

    Just because you're devoted more hours to something doesn't make someone's opinion superior to another 'fan'. It is just that, your opinion.

    You're welcome to not like the idea of a black actor - and in turn, I'm welcome to disagree. There is no right answer in this debate.

    I see film as a director's medium - essentially it is an art form. If the artist believes that there is a reason or point to making Bond black (i.e, a black actor is better suited to the part than any of the other candidates) then so be it. It's like Hamlet - he was conceived as a white man. But his characteristics aren't exclusive to his race - hence why a number of people have played him and reinterpreted the same text.

    The same goes for Bond. he is't Nelson Mandela, Tony Blair or Frank Sinatra - he' not a really person. He's a fictional character. Therefore, its at the whim of the artist to interpret.
  • 00Agent00Agent Any man who drinks Dom Perignon '52 can't be all bad.
    edited January 2020 Posts: 5,185
    I don't believe there is anything such as a 'true fan' - simply put, you buy your ticket for the film like anyone else, your money is as good as the next person.

    Just because you're devoted more hours to something doesn't make someone's opinion superior to another 'fan'. It is just that, your opinion.

    You're welcome to not like the idea of a black actor - and in turn, I'm welcome to disagree. There is no right answer in this debate.

    I see film as a director's medium - essentially it is an art form. If the artist believes that there is a reason or point to making Bond black (i.e, a black actor is better suited to the part than any of the other candidates) then so be it. It's like Hamlet - he was conceived as a white man. But his characteristics aren't exclusive to his race - hence why a number of people have played him and reinterpreted the same text.

    The same goes for Bond. he is't Nelson Mandela, Tony Blair or Frank Sinatra - he' not a really person. He's a fictional character. Therefore, its at the whim of the artist to interpret.

    A Bond film is an artist/directos medium up until the point where they stray to far from what EoN want. Then they will rail them in again or fire them, like Boyle or Romer.

    For the above mentioned reasons they shouldn't even audition non white actors because it's a waste of time. They would never allow white actors to audition for Black Panther or Blade. That would be ridiculous. They would also never allow black actors to audition for the next Polldark or Robin Hood, or Iron man, or Batman or Sherlock Holmes and countless others... why does Bond have to be the guinea pig to everything?
    Let someone else do it first and fail miserably at it to shut people up.
  • JeremyBondonJeremyBondon Seeking out odd jobs with Oddjob @Tangier
    edited January 2020 Posts: 1,318
    I don't believe there is anything such as a 'true fan' - simply put, you buy your ticket for the film like anyone else, your money is as good as the next person.

    Just because you're devoted more hours to something doesn't make someone's opinion superior to another 'fan'. It is just that, your opinion.

    You're welcome to not like the idea of a black actor - and in turn, I'm welcome to disagree. There is no right answer in this debate.

    I see film as a director's medium - essentially it is an art form. If the artist believes that there is a reason or point to making Bond black (i.e, a black actor is better suited to the part than any of the other candidates) then so be it. It's like Hamlet - he was conceived as a white man. But his characteristics aren't exclusive to his race - hence why a number of people have played him and reinterpreted the same text.

    The same goes for Bond. he is't Nelson Mandela, Tony Blair or Frank Sinatra - he' not a really person. He's a fictional character. Therefore, its at the whim of the artist to interpret.

    That's where most people will deviate from your opinion. I am tired of repeating myself until infinitum. You seem to be some kind of free spirited man who has no issues with taking all kinds of liberties regarding Bond. Fine. Most fans, including myself, like Bond, are more at the conservative/ traditional end of the spectrum which is the literal/ literary route. All the ingredients that make Bond have made him incredibly popular and for good reason. Bond = his ingredients = Fleming's brain. Deviate too much and - yet again - he is no longer Bond, but a fantasy by 2nd generation producers. In that case I'm out, along with millions of other Bond fans.

  • suavejmf wrote: »
    parkert5 wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Univex wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    I take @00Agent comments on board, tradition is key to the Bond franchise. The vital elements have to be there – you need Bond, the villain, the girls, the car, the action, the locations – but it doesn’t stop you changing and evolving those elements.

    Bond as a character wouldn’t fundamental change if you changed his race. The character of Bond – a suave, cool, enigmatic, sophisticated, dangerous, charming killer with a taste for the finer things – doesn’t change if you make him black.

    The best examples I can pose are the castings of Naomie Harris and Jeffrey Wright….both actors played roles previously played by white actors. The tradition associated with those characters didn’t change with those castings. They are still Leiter and Moneypenny.

    01%2BNaomie%2BHarris%2Bas%2BEve%2BMoneypenny.jpg
    06%2BJeffrey%2BWright%2Bas%2BFelix%2BLeiter.jpg

    The same would be the case with Bond.

    However, I really don’t think 2020 is the right time to announce a black Bond. Maybe back in 2005 they could have got away with it. But not today with the left and right so politicised. It isn’t the right time. Howver…………….I think generally speaking if Idris Elba got cast, no one would care. I think people almost are willing it to happen.


    Thanks for the vid, @suavejmf!

    And...all my black friends think the same. I've got an Angolan friend that is a massive James bond fan and he says the exact same thing. I've got a 48yo friend from Mumbai who is fanatical about the novels and the films and he says that changing Bond's race is stupid. My wife, who is sort of an activist for human rights, often says that decharacterisation of intelectual property for the sake of diversity and/or gender quotas is as stupid as it gets and a symptom of an unintelligent society who has lost a grip on creativity. Just create new and interesting stuff based on current times. Don't go changing historical characters and fictional characters just for the sake of proving a current point. Do it now. Create something in the now. Something fresh and to the point. Don't hijack the past, learn from it sure, but don't hijack things that always worked and that are dear to thousands of people.

    Well said!

    I still don't know what people have got against trying to find an actor that closely resembles the character that Fleming wrote? Is having a dark haired white actor that difficult to comprehend playing the part of Bond?

    If people find it that offensive for a white actor to play the part of Bond, then I don't believe they are true Bond fans.

    Did Fleming get it so wrong in his description of Bond that it needs radically changing drastically?

    Imagine the reaction if a remake of Shaft was made with a white male lead.

    Well it wouldn’t even get ‘put forward’ would it? Because Shaft is a cultural icon. But saying Bond should be white is immediately racist apparently! That video I posted shows how ludicrous it is to change Flemings creation/ character.

    Another point is that the film credits always say/ state ‘as IAN FLEMING’S James Bond 007’.....if Bond isn’t white they need to stop that as it won’t be anymore.

    IF they ever is a non-white actor to play Bond that doesn't mean the character of James Bond isn't still white. You are playing James Bond....a lighter skin multi-racial actor (think the skin tone of Vin Diesal) could still pull off playing James Bond. Remember this is acting.

    Yes it does. The character of Bond is a white male. That is not my opinion, it is a fact. Ian Fleming said so and all the films/ cartoon strips portray him as such. What you are talking about is re-inventing the character as mixed race.

    It is acting. The actual race of the actor does not change the race of the character.

  • suavejmf wrote: »
    parkert5 wrote: »
    parkert5 wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Univex wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    I take @00Agent comments on board, tradition is key to the Bond franchise. The vital elements have to be there – you need Bond, the villain, the girls, the car, the action, the locations – but it doesn’t stop you changing and evolving those elements.

    Bond as a character wouldn’t fundamental change if you changed his race. The character of Bond – a suave, cool, enigmatic, sophisticated, dangerous, charming killer with a taste for the finer things – doesn’t change if you make him black.

    The best examples I can pose are the castings of Naomie Harris and Jeffrey Wright….both actors played roles previously played by white actors. The tradition associated with those characters didn’t change with those castings. They are still Leiter and Moneypenny.

    01%2BNaomie%2BHarris%2Bas%2BEve%2BMoneypenny.jpg
    06%2BJeffrey%2BWright%2Bas%2BFelix%2BLeiter.jpg

    The same would be the case with Bond.

    However, I really don’t think 2020 is the right time to announce a black Bond. Maybe back in 2005 they could have got away with it. But not today with the left and right so politicised. It isn’t the right time. Howver…………….I think generally speaking if Idris Elba got cast, no one would care. I think people almost are willing it to happen.


    Thanks for the vid, @suavejmf!

    And...all my black friends think the same. I've got an Angolan friend that is a massive James bond fan and he says the exact same thing. I've got a 48yo friend from Mumbai who is fanatical about the novels and the films and he says that changing Bond's race is stupid. My wife, who is sort of an activist for human rights, often says that decharacterisation of intelectual property for the sake of diversity and/or gender quotas is as stupid as it gets and a symptom of an unintelligent society who has lost a grip on creativity. Just create new and interesting stuff based on current times. Don't go changing historical characters and fictional characters just for the sake of proving a current point. Do it now. Create something in the now. Something fresh and to the point. Don't hijack the past, learn from it sure, but don't hijack things that always worked and that are dear to thousands of people.

    Well said!

    I still don't know what people have got against trying to find an actor that closely resembles the character that Fleming wrote? Is having a dark haired white actor that difficult to comprehend playing the part of Bond?

    If people find it that offensive for a white actor to play the part of Bond, then I don't believe they are true Bond fans.

    Did Fleming get it so wrong in his description of Bond that it needs radically changing drastically?

    Imagine the reaction if a remake of Shaft was made with a white male lead.

    Well it wouldn’t even get ‘put forward’ would it? Because Shaft is a cultural icon. But saying Bond should be white is immediately racist apparently! That video I posted shows how ludicrous it is to change Flemings creation/ character.

    Another point is that the film credits always say/ state ‘as IAN FLEMING’S James Bond 007’.....if Bond isn’t white they need to stop that as it won’t be anymore.

    IF they ever is a non-white actor to play Bond that doesn't mean the character of James Bond isn't still white. You are playing James Bond....a lighter skin multi-racial actor (think the skin tone of Vin Diesal) could still pull off playing James Bond. Remember this is acting.

    Then why bother? Wouldn't it be easier just to pick an actor that is white?

    Or are we saying there are no decent white actors anymore on planet earth, so the only choice left is to go for a multi-racial or black actor?


    Why bother? If they person screentested is the best actor and looks the part then they should get the role regardless of thier actual race looks matter more than race.

    Would it b easier to pick a white actor? Yes it would be easier...But a inferior actor shouldn't be picked just because of thier actual race.

    We are not saying that there are no decent white actors on the planet anymore and we are not left with only going for a multi-racial, black actor or person of color. Im just stating that that race of the actor playing Bond doesn't mean the race of James Bond in the movie changes because it is acting. So is Lazenby's Bond Australian while Connery is Scottish while Craig's is English?

    Why bother? Because a none white actor doesn't look the part. Again, the character of Bond is a white male. That is not my opinion, it is a fact. Ian Fleming said so and all the films/ cartoon strips portray him as such. If you are black/ mixed race etc it is impossible to play a white character. It's like casting Colin Firth as Shaft or David Niven as The Black Panther/ Blade/ Axel Foley etc. I.E. Ridiculous.

    Lazenby, Connery and Craig are all white males.

    I disagree with the actor actual race changing the race of the character being played. That is why its called acting. You are playing a character. People of mixed raced and/or lighter skin tones in the past during slave times in real life passed themselves off as white in order to not be treated as slave. So if it can happen in real life why can't it happen in a movie. Im not stating that a person of color is my first choice because it is not my top choice is Aidan Turner but, a person of color is capable of portraying a white character.

  • Posts: 6,709
    You're welcome to not like the idea (...) - and in turn, I'm welcome to disagree. There is no right answer in this debate.

    I could argue all day long that the Earth is flat and it still wouldn't make me right. There are opinions and then there is bullheadedness towards facts. The facts, the depiction of the character is well written on the page. If you want to go against it, please do. In fact, there are, I hear, summits to discuss the possibility of the Earth being flat. You'd fit right in.

    Not being aggressive, ok? Do take this as fun bantering :-D
  • suavejmf wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    parkert5 wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Univex wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    I take @00Agent comments on board, tradition is key to the Bond franchise. The vital elements have to be there – you need Bond, the villain, the girls, the car, the action, the locations – but it doesn’t stop you changing and evolving those elements.

    Bond as a character wouldn’t fundamental change if you changed his race. The character of Bond – a suave, cool, enigmatic, sophisticated, dangerous, charming killer with a taste for the finer things – doesn’t change if you make him black.

    The best examples I can pose are the castings of Naomie Harris and Jeffrey Wright….both actors played roles previously played by white actors. The tradition associated with those characters didn’t change with those castings. They are still Leiter and Moneypenny.

    01%2BNaomie%2BHarris%2Bas%2BEve%2BMoneypenny.jpg
    06%2BJeffrey%2BWright%2Bas%2BFelix%2BLeiter.jpg

    The same would be the case with Bond.

    However, I really don’t think 2020 is the right time to announce a black Bond. Maybe back in 2005 they could have got away with it. But not today with the left and right so politicised. It isn’t the right time. Howver…………….I think generally speaking if Idris Elba got cast, no one would care. I think people almost are willing it to happen.


    Thanks for the vid, @suavejmf!

    And...all my black friends think the same. I've got an Angolan friend that is a massive James bond fan and he says the exact same thing. I've got a 48yo friend from Mumbai who is fanatical about the novels and the films and he says that changing Bond's race is stupid. My wife, who is sort of an activist for human rights, often says that decharacterisation of intelectual property for the sake of diversity and/or gender quotas is as stupid as it gets and a symptom of an unintelligent society who has lost a grip on creativity. Just create new and interesting stuff based on current times. Don't go changing historical characters and fictional characters just for the sake of proving a current point. Do it now. Create something in the now. Something fresh and to the point. Don't hijack the past, learn from it sure, but don't hijack things that always worked and that are dear to thousands of people.

    Well said!

    I still don't know what people have got against trying to find an actor that closely resembles the character that Fleming wrote? Is having a dark haired white actor that difficult to comprehend playing the part of Bond?

    If people find it that offensive for a white actor to play the part of Bond, then I don't believe they are true Bond fans.

    Did Fleming get it so wrong in his description of Bond that it needs radically changing drastically?

    Imagine the reaction if a remake of Shaft was made with a white male lead.

    Well it wouldn’t even get ‘put forward’ would it? Because Shaft is a cultural icon. But saying Bond should be white is immediately racist apparently! That video I posted shows how ludicrous it is to change Flemings creation/ character.

    Another point is that the film credits always say/ state ‘as IAN FLEMING’S James Bond 007’.....if Bond isn’t white they need to stop that as it won’t be anymore.

    IF they ever is a non-white actor to play Bond that doesn't mean the character of James Bond isn't still white. You are playing James Bond....a lighter skin multi-racial actor (think the skin tone of Vin Diesal) could still pull off playing James Bond. Remember this is acting.

    Yes it does. The character of Bond is a white male. That is not my opinion, it is a fact. Ian Fleming said so and all the films/ cartoon strips portray him as such. What you are talking about is re-inventing the character as mixed race.

    And there's where the difference between Book Bond and Film Bond come into play. Yes, Ian Fleming wrote Bond as a white male. But he doesn't decide who gets to play the 7th incarnation of Bond on the big screen. Barbara Broccoli and Michael G. Wilson do. And if they want to screentest actors that aren't white, they are free to do so. If they at the end of that process come to the conclusion that the best man to play the role is a non-white actor, they are free to cast him.

    BB and MGW are the ones who decide how Bond looks in the film universe. It is entirely separate from what Ian Fleming wrote. Or it has become that way.

    And frankly, thank goodness for that. I doubt Fleming would've approved Bond taking orders from a female boss, or that his best buddy at the CIA was someone else than a white American. But by doing something totally different from Fleming, BB and MGW gave us two actors who redefined the roles of M and Felix Leiter. And I trust the producers of this film series to do the thing that is best for the series to move forward.

    But with the character of bond the producers have always ‘gone back to Fleming’ . With the exception of Daniel’s blonde hair, which is of little consequence. Furthermore, the film series has still set the precedent of Bond being white for nearly 60 years. Would you cast Bad Boys 3 (Out next week) with Jude Law and High Grant? No.....because that would be stupid. Because the lead characters are black men.

    Could you cast Bad Boys 4 with The Rock and Vin Diesal? Both are of mixed-raced and that would be fine same as someone of mixed-raced think a young Wentworth Miller could be cast as Bond.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    I'm not going to say that the idea is entirely off the table ever, although like some have already said, I think both BB and MGW were being diplomatic.

    This question isn't going to be answered explicitly by either of them, they are placating people with this as it has been in the news for quite sometime.

    I wouldn't support it but I would be willing to see how it plays out, although the idea of Bond being a woman is utterly absurd.

    I agree that the character wouldn't be the same, the temptation of a smart arse screenwriter wanting to make a statement would make it a thing and anyone thinking that it wouldn't is living in denial.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    edited January 2020 Posts: 5,131
    parkert5 wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    parkert5 wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Univex wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    I take @00Agent comments on board, tradition is key to the Bond franchise. The vital elements have to be there – you need Bond, the villain, the girls, the car, the action, the locations – but it doesn’t stop you changing and evolving those elements.

    Bond as a character wouldn’t fundamental change if you changed his race. The character of Bond – a suave, cool, enigmatic, sophisticated, dangerous, charming killer with a taste for the finer things – doesn’t change if you make him black.

    The best examples I can pose are the castings of Naomie Harris and Jeffrey Wright….both actors played roles previously played by white actors. The tradition associated with those characters didn’t change with those castings. They are still Leiter and Moneypenny.

    01%2BNaomie%2BHarris%2Bas%2BEve%2BMoneypenny.jpg
    06%2BJeffrey%2BWright%2Bas%2BFelix%2BLeiter.jpg

    The same would be the case with Bond.

    However, I really don’t think 2020 is the right time to announce a black Bond. Maybe back in 2005 they could have got away with it. But not today with the left and right so politicised. It isn’t the right time. Howver…………….I think generally speaking if Idris Elba got cast, no one would care. I think people almost are willing it to happen.


    Thanks for the vid, @suavejmf!

    And...all my black friends think the same. I've got an Angolan friend that is a massive James bond fan and he says the exact same thing. I've got a 48yo friend from Mumbai who is fanatical about the novels and the films and he says that changing Bond's race is stupid. My wife, who is sort of an activist for human rights, often says that decharacterisation of intelectual property for the sake of diversity and/or gender quotas is as stupid as it gets and a symptom of an unintelligent society who has lost a grip on creativity. Just create new and interesting stuff based on current times. Don't go changing historical characters and fictional characters just for the sake of proving a current point. Do it now. Create something in the now. Something fresh and to the point. Don't hijack the past, learn from it sure, but don't hijack things that always worked and that are dear to thousands of people.

    Well said!

    I still don't know what people have got against trying to find an actor that closely resembles the character that Fleming wrote? Is having a dark haired white actor that difficult to comprehend playing the part of Bond?

    If people find it that offensive for a white actor to play the part of Bond, then I don't believe they are true Bond fans.

    Did Fleming get it so wrong in his description of Bond that it needs radically changing drastically?

    Imagine the reaction if a remake of Shaft was made with a white male lead.

    Well it wouldn’t even get ‘put forward’ would it? Because Shaft is a cultural icon. But saying Bond should be white is immediately racist apparently! That video I posted shows how ludicrous it is to change Flemings creation/ character.

    Another point is that the film credits always say/ state ‘as IAN FLEMING’S James Bond 007’.....if Bond isn’t white they need to stop that as it won’t be anymore.

    IF they ever is a non-white actor to play Bond that doesn't mean the character of James Bond isn't still white. You are playing James Bond....a lighter skin multi-racial actor (think the skin tone of Vin Diesal) could still pull off playing James Bond. Remember this is acting.

    Yes it does. The character of Bond is a white male. That is not my opinion, it is a fact. Ian Fleming said so and all the films/ cartoon strips portray him as such. What you are talking about is re-inventing the character as mixed race.

    And there's where the difference between Book Bond and Film Bond come into play. Yes, Ian Fleming wrote Bond as a white male. But he doesn't decide who gets to play the 7th incarnation of Bond on the big screen. Barbara Broccoli and Michael G. Wilson do. And if they want to screentest actors that aren't white, they are free to do so. If they at the end of that process come to the conclusion that the best man to play the role is a non-white actor, they are free to cast him.

    BB and MGW are the ones who decide how Bond looks in the film universe. It is entirely separate from what Ian Fleming wrote. Or it has become that way.

    And frankly, thank goodness for that. I doubt Fleming would've approved Bond taking orders from a female boss, or that his best buddy at the CIA was someone else than a white American. But by doing something totally different from Fleming, BB and MGW gave us two actors who redefined the roles of M and Felix Leiter. And I trust the producers of this film series to do the thing that is best for the series to move forward.

    But with the character of bond the producers have always ‘gone back to Fleming’ . With the exception of Daniel’s blonde hair, which is of little consequence. Furthermore, the film series has still set the precedent of Bond being white for nearly 60 years. Would you cast Bad Boys 3 (Out next week) with Jude Law and High Grant? No.....because that would be stupid. Because the lead characters are black men.

    Could you cast Bad Boys 4 with The Rock and Vin Diesal? Both are of mixed-raced and that would be fine same as someone of mixed-raced think a young Wentworth Miller could be cast as Bond.

    No not really because the characters are black.

    Wentworth Miller is not white and is American so his CV would be filed ‘in the trash’ as Americans say.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    parkert5 wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    parkert5 wrote: »
    parkert5 wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Univex wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    I take @00Agent comments on board, tradition is key to the Bond franchise. The vital elements have to be there – you need Bond, the villain, the girls, the car, the action, the locations – but it doesn’t stop you changing and evolving those elements.

    Bond as a character wouldn’t fundamental change if you changed his race. The character of Bond – a suave, cool, enigmatic, sophisticated, dangerous, charming killer with a taste for the finer things – doesn’t change if you make him black.

    The best examples I can pose are the castings of Naomie Harris and Jeffrey Wright….both actors played roles previously played by white actors. The tradition associated with those characters didn’t change with those castings. They are still Leiter and Moneypenny.

    01%2BNaomie%2BHarris%2Bas%2BEve%2BMoneypenny.jpg
    06%2BJeffrey%2BWright%2Bas%2BFelix%2BLeiter.jpg

    The same would be the case with Bond.

    However, I really don’t think 2020 is the right time to announce a black Bond. Maybe back in 2005 they could have got away with it. But not today with the left and right so politicised. It isn’t the right time. Howver…………….I think generally speaking if Idris Elba got cast, no one would care. I think people almost are willing it to happen.


    Thanks for the vid, @suavejmf!

    And...all my black friends think the same. I've got an Angolan friend that is a massive James bond fan and he says the exact same thing. I've got a 48yo friend from Mumbai who is fanatical about the novels and the films and he says that changing Bond's race is stupid. My wife, who is sort of an activist for human rights, often says that decharacterisation of intelectual property for the sake of diversity and/or gender quotas is as stupid as it gets and a symptom of an unintelligent society who has lost a grip on creativity. Just create new and interesting stuff based on current times. Don't go changing historical characters and fictional characters just for the sake of proving a current point. Do it now. Create something in the now. Something fresh and to the point. Don't hijack the past, learn from it sure, but don't hijack things that always worked and that are dear to thousands of people.

    Well said!

    I still don't know what people have got against trying to find an actor that closely resembles the character that Fleming wrote? Is having a dark haired white actor that difficult to comprehend playing the part of Bond?

    If people find it that offensive for a white actor to play the part of Bond, then I don't believe they are true Bond fans.

    Did Fleming get it so wrong in his description of Bond that it needs radically changing drastically?

    Imagine the reaction if a remake of Shaft was made with a white male lead.

    Well it wouldn’t even get ‘put forward’ would it? Because Shaft is a cultural icon. But saying Bond should be white is immediately racist apparently! That video I posted shows how ludicrous it is to change Flemings creation/ character.

    Another point is that the film credits always say/ state ‘as IAN FLEMING’S James Bond 007’.....if Bond isn’t white they need to stop that as it won’t be anymore.

    IF they ever is a non-white actor to play Bond that doesn't mean the character of James Bond isn't still white. You are playing James Bond....a lighter skin multi-racial actor (think the skin tone of Vin Diesal) could still pull off playing James Bond. Remember this is acting.

    Then why bother? Wouldn't it be easier just to pick an actor that is white?

    Or are we saying there are no decent white actors anymore on planet earth, so the only choice left is to go for a multi-racial or black actor?


    Why bother? If they person screentested is the best actor and looks the part then they should get the role regardless of thier actual race looks matter more than race.

    Would it b easier to pick a white actor? Yes it would be easier...But a inferior actor shouldn't be picked just because of thier actual race.

    We are not saying that there are no decent white actors on the planet anymore and we are not left with only going for a multi-racial, black actor or person of color. Im just stating that that race of the actor playing Bond doesn't mean the race of James Bond in the movie changes because it is acting. So is Lazenby's Bond Australian while Connery is Scottish while Craig's is English?

    Why bother? Because a none white actor doesn't look the part. Again, the character of Bond is a white male. That is not my opinion, it is a fact. Ian Fleming said so and all the films/ cartoon strips portray him as such. If you are black/ mixed race etc it is impossible to play a white character. It's like casting Colin Firth as Shaft or David Niven as The Black Panther/ Blade/ Axel Foley etc. I.E. Ridiculous.

    Lazenby, Connery and Craig are all white males.

    I disagree with the actor actual race changing the race of the character being played. That is why its called acting. You are playing a character. People of mixed raced and/or lighter skin tones in the past during slave times in real life passed themselves off as white in order to not be treated as slave. So if it can happen in real life why can't it happen in a movie. Im not stating that a person of color is my first choice because it is not my top choice is Aidan Turner but, a person of color is capable of portraying a white character.

    But Bond is a white character. So the actor playing him has to be a white actor. So it’s about appearance and acting.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    I don't believe there is anything such as a 'true fan' - simply put, you buy your ticket for the film like anyone else, your money is as good as the next person.

    Just because you're devoted more hours to something doesn't make someone's opinion superior to another 'fan'. It is just that, your opinion.

    You're welcome to not like the idea of a black actor - and in turn, I'm welcome to disagree. There is no right answer in this debate.

    I see film as a director's medium - essentially it is an art form. If the artist believes that there is a reason or point to making Bond black (i.e, a black actor is better suited to the part than any of the other candidates) then so be it. It's like Hamlet - he was conceived as a white man. But his characteristics aren't exclusive to his race - hence why a number of people have played him and reinterpreted the same text.

    The same goes for Bond. he is't Nelson Mandela, Tony Blair or Frank Sinatra - he' not a really person. He's a fictional character. Therefore, its at the whim of the artist to interpret.

    That's where most people will deviate from your opinion. I am tired of repeating myself until infinitum. You seem to be some kind of free spirited man who has no issues with taking all kinds of liberties regarding Bond. Fine. Most fans, including myself, like Bond, are more at the conservative/ traditional end of the spectrum which is the literal/ literary route. All the ingredients that make Bond have made him incredibly popular and for good reason. Bond = his ingredients = Fleming's brain. Deviate too much and - yet again - he is no longer Bond, but a fantasy by 2nd generation producers. In that case I'm out, along with millions of other Bond fans.


    Exactly. +1,000,000,000.
  • Posts: 12,526
    suavejmf wrote: »
    parkert5 wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    parkert5 wrote: »
    parkert5 wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Univex wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    I take @00Agent comments on board, tradition is key to the Bond franchise. The vital elements have to be there – you need Bond, the villain, the girls, the car, the action, the locations – but it doesn’t stop you changing and evolving those elements.

    Bond as a character wouldn’t fundamental change if you changed his race. The character of Bond – a suave, cool, enigmatic, sophisticated, dangerous, charming killer with a taste for the finer things – doesn’t change if you make him black.

    The best examples I can pose are the castings of Naomie Harris and Jeffrey Wright….both actors played roles previously played by white actors. The tradition associated with those characters didn’t change with those castings. They are still Leiter and Moneypenny.

    01%2BNaomie%2BHarris%2Bas%2BEve%2BMoneypenny.jpg
    06%2BJeffrey%2BWright%2Bas%2BFelix%2BLeiter.jpg

    The same would be the case with Bond.

    However, I really don’t think 2020 is the right time to announce a black Bond. Maybe back in 2005 they could have got away with it. But not today with the left and right so politicised. It isn’t the right time. Howver…………….I think generally speaking if Idris Elba got cast, no one would care. I think people almost are willing it to happen.


    Thanks for the vid, @suavejmf!

    And...all my black friends think the same. I've got an Angolan friend that is a massive James bond fan and he says the exact same thing. I've got a 48yo friend from Mumbai who is fanatical about the novels and the films and he says that changing Bond's race is stupid. My wife, who is sort of an activist for human rights, often says that decharacterisation of intelectual property for the sake of diversity and/or gender quotas is as stupid as it gets and a symptom of an unintelligent society who has lost a grip on creativity. Just create new and interesting stuff based on current times. Don't go changing historical characters and fictional characters just for the sake of proving a current point. Do it now. Create something in the now. Something fresh and to the point. Don't hijack the past, learn from it sure, but don't hijack things that always worked and that are dear to thousands of people.

    Well said!

    I still don't know what people have got against trying to find an actor that closely resembles the character that Fleming wrote? Is having a dark haired white actor that difficult to comprehend playing the part of Bond?

    If people find it that offensive for a white actor to play the part of Bond, then I don't believe they are true Bond fans.

    Did Fleming get it so wrong in his description of Bond that it needs radically changing drastically?

    Imagine the reaction if a remake of Shaft was made with a white male lead.

    Well it wouldn’t even get ‘put forward’ would it? Because Shaft is a cultural icon. But saying Bond should be white is immediately racist apparently! That video I posted shows how ludicrous it is to change Flemings creation/ character.

    Another point is that the film credits always say/ state ‘as IAN FLEMING’S James Bond 007’.....if Bond isn’t white they need to stop that as it won’t be anymore.

    IF they ever is a non-white actor to play Bond that doesn't mean the character of James Bond isn't still white. You are playing James Bond....a lighter skin multi-racial actor (think the skin tone of Vin Diesal) could still pull off playing James Bond. Remember this is acting.

    Then why bother? Wouldn't it be easier just to pick an actor that is white?

    Or are we saying there are no decent white actors anymore on planet earth, so the only choice left is to go for a multi-racial or black actor?


    Why bother? If they person screentested is the best actor and looks the part then they should get the role regardless of thier actual race looks matter more than race.

    Would it b easier to pick a white actor? Yes it would be easier...But a inferior actor shouldn't be picked just because of thier actual race.

    We are not saying that there are no decent white actors on the planet anymore and we are not left with only going for a multi-racial, black actor or person of color. Im just stating that that race of the actor playing Bond doesn't mean the race of James Bond in the movie changes because it is acting. So is Lazenby's Bond Australian while Connery is Scottish while Craig's is English?

    Why bother? Because a none white actor doesn't look the part. Again, the character of Bond is a white male. That is not my opinion, it is a fact. Ian Fleming said so and all the films/ cartoon strips portray him as such. If you are black/ mixed race etc it is impossible to play a white character. It's like casting Colin Firth as Shaft or David Niven as The Black Panther/ Blade/ Axel Foley etc. I.E. Ridiculous.

    Lazenby, Connery and Craig are all white males.

    I disagree with the actor actual race changing the race of the character being played. That is why its called acting. You are playing a character. People of mixed raced and/or lighter skin tones in the past during slave times in real life passed themselves off as white in order to not be treated as slave. So if it can happen in real life why can't it happen in a movie. Im not stating that a person of color is my first choice because it is not my top choice is Aidan Turner but, a person of color is capable of portraying a white character.

    But Bond is a white character. So the actor playing him has to be a white actor. So it’s about appearance and acting.

    Seconded. Create powerful new characters for Bond to face off against regardless of gender or race.
  • suavejmf wrote: »
    parkert5 wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    parkert5 wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Univex wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    I take @00Agent comments on board, tradition is key to the Bond franchise. The vital elements have to be there – you need Bond, the villain, the girls, the car, the action, the locations – but it doesn’t stop you changing and evolving those elements.

    Bond as a character wouldn’t fundamental change if you changed his race. The character of Bond – a suave, cool, enigmatic, sophisticated, dangerous, charming killer with a taste for the finer things – doesn’t change if you make him black.

    The best examples I can pose are the castings of Naomie Harris and Jeffrey Wright….both actors played roles previously played by white actors. The tradition associated with those characters didn’t change with those castings. They are still Leiter and Moneypenny.

    01%2BNaomie%2BHarris%2Bas%2BEve%2BMoneypenny.jpg
    06%2BJeffrey%2BWright%2Bas%2BFelix%2BLeiter.jpg

    The same would be the case with Bond.

    However, I really don’t think 2020 is the right time to announce a black Bond. Maybe back in 2005 they could have got away with it. But not today with the left and right so politicised. It isn’t the right time. Howver…………….I think generally speaking if Idris Elba got cast, no one would care. I think people almost are willing it to happen.


    Thanks for the vid, @suavejmf!

    And...all my black friends think the same. I've got an Angolan friend that is a massive James bond fan and he says the exact same thing. I've got a 48yo friend from Mumbai who is fanatical about the novels and the films and he says that changing Bond's race is stupid. My wife, who is sort of an activist for human rights, often says that decharacterisation of intelectual property for the sake of diversity and/or gender quotas is as stupid as it gets and a symptom of an unintelligent society who has lost a grip on creativity. Just create new and interesting stuff based on current times. Don't go changing historical characters and fictional characters just for the sake of proving a current point. Do it now. Create something in the now. Something fresh and to the point. Don't hijack the past, learn from it sure, but don't hijack things that always worked and that are dear to thousands of people.

    Well said!

    I still don't know what people have got against trying to find an actor that closely resembles the character that Fleming wrote? Is having a dark haired white actor that difficult to comprehend playing the part of Bond?

    If people find it that offensive for a white actor to play the part of Bond, then I don't believe they are true Bond fans.

    Did Fleming get it so wrong in his description of Bond that it needs radically changing drastically?

    Imagine the reaction if a remake of Shaft was made with a white male lead.

    Well it wouldn’t even get ‘put forward’ would it? Because Shaft is a cultural icon. But saying Bond should be white is immediately racist apparently! That video I posted shows how ludicrous it is to change Flemings creation/ character.

    Another point is that the film credits always say/ state ‘as IAN FLEMING’S James Bond 007’.....if Bond isn’t white they need to stop that as it won’t be anymore.

    IF they ever is a non-white actor to play Bond that doesn't mean the character of James Bond isn't still white. You are playing James Bond....a lighter skin multi-racial actor (think the skin tone of Vin Diesal) could still pull off playing James Bond. Remember this is acting.

    Yes it does. The character of Bond is a white male. That is not my opinion, it is a fact. Ian Fleming said so and all the films/ cartoon strips portray him as such. What you are talking about is re-inventing the character as mixed race.

    And there's where the difference between Book Bond and Film Bond come into play. Yes, Ian Fleming wrote Bond as a white male. But he doesn't decide who gets to play the 7th incarnation of Bond on the big screen. Barbara Broccoli and Michael G. Wilson do. And if they want to screentest actors that aren't white, they are free to do so. If they at the end of that process come to the conclusion that the best man to play the role is a non-white actor, they are free to cast him.

    BB and MGW are the ones who decide how Bond looks in the film universe. It is entirely separate from what Ian Fleming wrote. Or it has become that way.

    And frankly, thank goodness for that. I doubt Fleming would've approved Bond taking orders from a female boss, or that his best buddy at the CIA was someone else than a white American. But by doing something totally different from Fleming, BB and MGW gave us two actors who redefined the roles of M and Felix Leiter. And I trust the producers of this film series to do the thing that is best for the series to move forward.

    But with the character of bond the producers have always ‘gone back to Fleming’ . With the exception of Daniel’s blonde hair, which is of little consequence. Furthermore, the film series has still set the precedent of Bond being white for nearly 60 years. Would you cast Bad Boys 3 (Out next week) with Jude Law and High Grant? No.....because that would be stupid. Because the lead characters are black men.

    Could you cast Bad Boys 4 with The Rock and Vin Diesal? Both are of mixed-raced and that would be fine same as someone of mixed-raced think a young Wentworth Miller could be cast as Bond.

    No not really because the characters are black.

    Wentworth Miller is not white and is American so his CV would be filed ‘in the trash’ as Americans say.

    So being half-black and half-samoan The Rock should not have played Roadblock in GI Joe because the character was black?

  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    parkert5 wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    parkert5 wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    parkert5 wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Univex wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    I take @00Agent comments on board, tradition is key to the Bond franchise. The vital elements have to be there – you need Bond, the villain, the girls, the car, the action, the locations – but it doesn’t stop you changing and evolving those elements.

    Bond as a character wouldn’t fundamental change if you changed his race. The character of Bond – a suave, cool, enigmatic, sophisticated, dangerous, charming killer with a taste for the finer things – doesn’t change if you make him black.

    The best examples I can pose are the castings of Naomie Harris and Jeffrey Wright….both actors played roles previously played by white actors. The tradition associated with those characters didn’t change with those castings. They are still Leiter and Moneypenny.

    01%2BNaomie%2BHarris%2Bas%2BEve%2BMoneypenny.jpg
    06%2BJeffrey%2BWright%2Bas%2BFelix%2BLeiter.jpg

    The same would be the case with Bond.

    However, I really don’t think 2020 is the right time to announce a black Bond. Maybe back in 2005 they could have got away with it. But not today with the left and right so politicised. It isn’t the right time. Howver…………….I think generally speaking if Idris Elba got cast, no one would care. I think people almost are willing it to happen.


    Thanks for the vid, @suavejmf!

    And...all my black friends think the same. I've got an Angolan friend that is a massive James bond fan and he says the exact same thing. I've got a 48yo friend from Mumbai who is fanatical about the novels and the films and he says that changing Bond's race is stupid. My wife, who is sort of an activist for human rights, often says that decharacterisation of intelectual property for the sake of diversity and/or gender quotas is as stupid as it gets and a symptom of an unintelligent society who has lost a grip on creativity. Just create new and interesting stuff based on current times. Don't go changing historical characters and fictional characters just for the sake of proving a current point. Do it now. Create something in the now. Something fresh and to the point. Don't hijack the past, learn from it sure, but don't hijack things that always worked and that are dear to thousands of people.

    Well said!

    I still don't know what people have got against trying to find an actor that closely resembles the character that Fleming wrote? Is having a dark haired white actor that difficult to comprehend playing the part of Bond?

    If people find it that offensive for a white actor to play the part of Bond, then I don't believe they are true Bond fans.

    Did Fleming get it so wrong in his description of Bond that it needs radically changing drastically?

    Imagine the reaction if a remake of Shaft was made with a white male lead.

    Well it wouldn’t even get ‘put forward’ would it? Because Shaft is a cultural icon. But saying Bond should be white is immediately racist apparently! That video I posted shows how ludicrous it is to change Flemings creation/ character.

    Another point is that the film credits always say/ state ‘as IAN FLEMING’S James Bond 007’.....if Bond isn’t white they need to stop that as it won’t be anymore.

    IF they ever is a non-white actor to play Bond that doesn't mean the character of James Bond isn't still white. You are playing James Bond....a lighter skin multi-racial actor (think the skin tone of Vin Diesal) could still pull off playing James Bond. Remember this is acting.

    Yes it does. The character of Bond is a white male. That is not my opinion, it is a fact. Ian Fleming said so and all the films/ cartoon strips portray him as such. What you are talking about is re-inventing the character as mixed race.

    And there's where the difference between Book Bond and Film Bond come into play. Yes, Ian Fleming wrote Bond as a white male. But he doesn't decide who gets to play the 7th incarnation of Bond on the big screen. Barbara Broccoli and Michael G. Wilson do. And if they want to screentest actors that aren't white, they are free to do so. If they at the end of that process come to the conclusion that the best man to play the role is a non-white actor, they are free to cast him.

    BB and MGW are the ones who decide how Bond looks in the film universe. It is entirely separate from what Ian Fleming wrote. Or it has become that way.

    And frankly, thank goodness for that. I doubt Fleming would've approved Bond taking orders from a female boss, or that his best buddy at the CIA was someone else than a white American. But by doing something totally different from Fleming, BB and MGW gave us two actors who redefined the roles of M and Felix Leiter. And I trust the producers of this film series to do the thing that is best for the series to move forward.

    But with the character of bond the producers have always ‘gone back to Fleming’ . With the exception of Daniel’s blonde hair, which is of little consequence. Furthermore, the film series has still set the precedent of Bond being white for nearly 60 years. Would you cast Bad Boys 3 (Out next week) with Jude Law and High Grant? No.....because that would be stupid. Because the lead characters are black men.

    Could you cast Bad Boys 4 with The Rock and Vin Diesal? Both are of mixed-raced and that would be fine same as someone of mixed-raced think a young Wentworth Miller could be cast as Bond.

    No not really because the characters are black.

    Wentworth Miller is not white and is American so his CV would be filed ‘in the trash’ as Americans say.

    So being half-black and half-samoan The Rock should not have played Roadblock in GI Joe because the character was black?

    Sorry I don’t know anything about GI Joe at all and haven’t seen the film. It’s hardly on an iconic, traditional and historic par with Bond. However, yes if the character was black in the comic or cartoon the Rock shouldn’t have played him as he isn’t black.
  • suavejmf wrote: »
    parkert5 wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    parkert5 wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    parkert5 wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Univex wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    I take @00Agent comments on board, tradition is key to the Bond franchise. The vital elements have to be there – you need Bond, the villain, the girls, the car, the action, the locations – but it doesn’t stop you changing and evolving those elements.

    Bond as a character wouldn’t fundamental change if you changed his race. The character of Bond – a suave, cool, enigmatic, sophisticated, dangerous, charming killer with a taste for the finer things – doesn’t change if you make him black.

    The best examples I can pose are the castings of Naomie Harris and Jeffrey Wright….both actors played roles previously played by white actors. The tradition associated with those characters didn’t change with those castings. They are still Leiter and Moneypenny.

    01%2BNaomie%2BHarris%2Bas%2BEve%2BMoneypenny.jpg
    06%2BJeffrey%2BWright%2Bas%2BFelix%2BLeiter.jpg

    The same would be the case with Bond.

    However, I really don’t think 2020 is the right time to announce a black Bond. Maybe back in 2005 they could have got away with it. But not today with the left and right so politicised. It isn’t the right time. Howver…………….I think generally speaking if Idris Elba got cast, no one would care. I think people almost are willing it to happen.


    Thanks for the vid, @suavejmf!

    And...all my black friends think the same. I've got an Angolan friend that is a massive James bond fan and he says the exact same thing. I've got a 48yo friend from Mumbai who is fanatical about the novels and the films and he says that changing Bond's race is stupid. My wife, who is sort of an activist for human rights, often says that decharacterisation of intelectual property for the sake of diversity and/or gender quotas is as stupid as it gets and a symptom of an unintelligent society who has lost a grip on creativity. Just create new and interesting stuff based on current times. Don't go changing historical characters and fictional characters just for the sake of proving a current point. Do it now. Create something in the now. Something fresh and to the point. Don't hijack the past, learn from it sure, but don't hijack things that always worked and that are dear to thousands of people.

    Well said!

    I still don't know what people have got against trying to find an actor that closely resembles the character that Fleming wrote? Is having a dark haired white actor that difficult to comprehend playing the part of Bond?

    If people find it that offensive for a white actor to play the part of Bond, then I don't believe they are true Bond fans.

    Did Fleming get it so wrong in his description of Bond that it needs radically changing drastically?

    Imagine the reaction if a remake of Shaft was made with a white male lead.

    Well it wouldn’t even get ‘put forward’ would it? Because Shaft is a cultural icon. But saying Bond should be white is immediately racist apparently! That video I posted shows how ludicrous it is to change Flemings creation/ character.

    Another point is that the film credits always say/ state ‘as IAN FLEMING’S James Bond 007’.....if Bond isn’t white they need to stop that as it won’t be anymore.

    IF they ever is a non-white actor to play Bond that doesn't mean the character of James Bond isn't still white. You are playing James Bond....a lighter skin multi-racial actor (think the skin tone of Vin Diesal) could still pull off playing James Bond. Remember this is acting.

    Yes it does. The character of Bond is a white male. That is not my opinion, it is a fact. Ian Fleming said so and all the films/ cartoon strips portray him as such. What you are talking about is re-inventing the character as mixed race.

    And there's where the difference between Book Bond and Film Bond come into play. Yes, Ian Fleming wrote Bond as a white male. But he doesn't decide who gets to play the 7th incarnation of Bond on the big screen. Barbara Broccoli and Michael G. Wilson do. And if they want to screentest actors that aren't white, they are free to do so. If they at the end of that process come to the conclusion that the best man to play the role is a non-white actor, they are free to cast him.

    BB and MGW are the ones who decide how Bond looks in the film universe. It is entirely separate from what Ian Fleming wrote. Or it has become that way.

    And frankly, thank goodness for that. I doubt Fleming would've approved Bond taking orders from a female boss, or that his best buddy at the CIA was someone else than a white American. But by doing something totally different from Fleming, BB and MGW gave us two actors who redefined the roles of M and Felix Leiter. And I trust the producers of this film series to do the thing that is best for the series to move forward.

    But with the character of bond the producers have always ‘gone back to Fleming’ . With the exception of Daniel’s blonde hair, which is of little consequence. Furthermore, the film series has still set the precedent of Bond being white for nearly 60 years. Would you cast Bad Boys 3 (Out next week) with Jude Law and High Grant? No.....because that would be stupid. Because the lead characters are black men.

    Could you cast Bad Boys 4 with The Rock and Vin Diesal? Both are of mixed-raced and that would be fine same as someone of mixed-raced think a young Wentworth Miller could be cast as Bond.

    No not really because the characters are black.

    Wentworth Miller is not white and is American so his CV would be filed ‘in the trash’ as Americans say.

    So being half-black and half-samoan The Rock should not have played Roadblock in GI Joe because the character was black?

    Sorry I don’t know anything about GI Joe at all and haven’t seen the film. It’s hardly on an iconic, traditional and historic par with Bond. However, yes if the character was black in the comic or cartoon the Rock shouldn’t have played him as he isn’t black.

    You do realize that by taking that approach that anyone of mixed ethnicity would only be allowed to play new character so mixed-ethinicities right? You seriously think that's the way it should be? Aidan Tuner looks like he was born to play Bond and is my top choice for Bond but he's darker than some mixed/light skinned people of color. So should Aidan not be allowed to be Bond because he has a darker skin tone than say Cillian Murphy?

  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    talos7 wrote: »
    Bad Boys 3 with Jude Law and High Grant, brilliant. 😁

    🤣 It’s the same as casting a Black Bond IMO. Sir Ian Mckellan as Superfly, Colin Firth as Shaft, Sean Bean as The Black Panther.....the list is endless!
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    edited January 2020 Posts: 5,131
    parkert5 wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    parkert5 wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    parkert5 wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    parkert5 wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Univex wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    I take @00Agent comments on board, tradition is key to the Bond franchise. The vital elements have to be there – you need Bond, the villain, the girls, the car, the action, the locations – but it doesn’t stop you changing and evolving those elements.

    Bond as a character wouldn’t fundamental change if you changed his race. The character of Bond – a suave, cool, enigmatic, sophisticated, dangerous, charming killer with a taste for the finer things – doesn’t change if you make him black.

    The best examples I can pose are the castings of Naomie Harris and Jeffrey Wright….both actors played roles previously played by white actors. The tradition associated with those characters didn’t change with those castings. They are still Leiter and Moneypenny.

    01%2BNaomie%2BHarris%2Bas%2BEve%2BMoneypenny.jpg
    06%2BJeffrey%2BWright%2Bas%2BFelix%2BLeiter.jpg

    The same would be the case with Bond.

    However, I really don’t think 2020 is the right time to announce a black Bond. Maybe back in 2005 they could have got away with it. But not today with the left and right so politicised. It isn’t the right time. Howver…………….I think generally speaking if Idris Elba got cast, no one would care. I think people almost are willing it to happen.


    Thanks for the vid, @suavejmf!

    And...all my black friends think the same. I've got an Angolan friend that is a massive James bond fan and he says the exact same thing. I've got a 48yo friend from Mumbai who is fanatical about the novels and the films and he says that changing Bond's race is stupid. My wife, who is sort of an activist for human rights, often says that decharacterisation of intelectual property for the sake of diversity and/or gender quotas is as stupid as it gets and a symptom of an unintelligent society who has lost a grip on creativity. Just create new and interesting stuff based on current times. Don't go changing historical characters and fictional characters just for the sake of proving a current point. Do it now. Create something in the now. Something fresh and to the point. Don't hijack the past, learn from it sure, but don't hijack things that always worked and that are dear to thousands of people.

    Well said!

    I still don't know what people have got against trying to find an actor that closely resembles the character that Fleming wrote? Is having a dark haired white actor that difficult to comprehend playing the part of Bond?

    If people find it that offensive for a white actor to play the part of Bond, then I don't believe they are true Bond fans.

    Did Fleming get it so wrong in his description of Bond that it needs radically changing drastically?

    Imagine the reaction if a remake of Shaft was made with a white male lead.

    Well it wouldn’t even get ‘put forward’ would it? Because Shaft is a cultural icon. But saying Bond should be white is immediately racist apparently! That video I posted shows how ludicrous it is to change Flemings creation/ character.

    Another point is that the film credits always say/ state ‘as IAN FLEMING’S James Bond 007’.....if Bond isn’t white they need to stop that as it won’t be anymore.

    IF they ever is a non-white actor to play Bond that doesn't mean the character of James Bond isn't still white. You are playing James Bond....a lighter skin multi-racial actor (think the skin tone of Vin Diesal) could still pull off playing James Bond. Remember this is acting.

    Yes it does. The character of Bond is a white male. That is not my opinion, it is a fact. Ian Fleming said so and all the films/ cartoon strips portray him as such. What you are talking about is re-inventing the character as mixed race.

    And there's where the difference between Book Bond and Film Bond come into play. Yes, Ian Fleming wrote Bond as a white male. But he doesn't decide who gets to play the 7th incarnation of Bond on the big screen. Barbara Broccoli and Michael G. Wilson do. And if they want to screentest actors that aren't white, they are free to do so. If they at the end of that process come to the conclusion that the best man to play the role is a non-white actor, they are free to cast him.

    BB and MGW are the ones who decide how Bond looks in the film universe. It is entirely separate from what Ian Fleming wrote. Or it has become that way.

    And frankly, thank goodness for that. I doubt Fleming would've approved Bond taking orders from a female boss, or that his best buddy at the CIA was someone else than a white American. But by doing something totally different from Fleming, BB and MGW gave us two actors who redefined the roles of M and Felix Leiter. And I trust the producers of this film series to do the thing that is best for the series to move forward.

    But with the character of bond the producers have always ‘gone back to Fleming’ . With the exception of Daniel’s blonde hair, which is of little consequence. Furthermore, the film series has still set the precedent of Bond being white for nearly 60 years. Would you cast Bad Boys 3 (Out next week) with Jude Law and High Grant? No.....because that would be stupid. Because the lead characters are black men.

    Could you cast Bad Boys 4 with The Rock and Vin Diesal? Both are of mixed-raced and that would be fine same as someone of mixed-raced think a young Wentworth Miller could be cast as Bond.

    No not really because the characters are black.

    Wentworth Miller is not white and is American so his CV would be filed ‘in the trash’ as Americans say.

    So being half-black and half-samoan The Rock should not have played Roadblock in GI Joe because the character was black?

    Sorry I don’t know anything about GI Joe at all and haven’t seen the film. It’s hardly on an iconic, traditional and historic par with Bond. However, yes if the character was black in the comic or cartoon the Rock shouldn’t have played him as he isn’t black.

    You do realize that by taking that approach that anyone of mixed ethnicity would only be allowed to play new character so mixed-ethinicities right? You seriously think that's the way it should be? Aidan Tuner looks like he was born to play Bond and is my top choice for Bond but he's darker than some mixed/light skinned people of color. So should Aidan not be allowed to be Bond because he has a darker skin tone than say Cillian Murphy?

    No because Aidan Turner is a Brit who looks like Fleming’s description of Bond....great choice! Murphy is too odd looking for Bond IMO. He’s more Dominic Green than 007.

    Ok I’ll re phrase.....Bond is a male caucasian Brit......Just read Fleming or watch the films and you’ll get the drift of it.
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