Who should/could be a Bond actor?

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Comments

  • edited January 2020 Posts: 88
    suavejmf wrote: »
    parkert5 wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    parkert5 wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    parkert5 wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    parkert5 wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Univex wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    I take @00Agent comments on board, tradition is key to the Bond franchise. The vital elements have to be there – you need Bond, the villain, the girls, the car, the action, the locations – but it doesn’t stop you changing and evolving those elements.

    Bond as a character wouldn’t fundamental change if you changed his race. The character of Bond – a suave, cool, enigmatic, sophisticated, dangerous, charming killer with a taste for the finer things – doesn’t change if you make him black.

    The best examples I can pose are the castings of Naomie Harris and Jeffrey Wright….both actors played roles previously played by white actors. The tradition associated with those characters didn’t change with those castings. They are still Leiter and Moneypenny.

    01%2BNaomie%2BHarris%2Bas%2BEve%2BMoneypenny.jpg
    06%2BJeffrey%2BWright%2Bas%2BFelix%2BLeiter.jpg

    The same would be the case with Bond.

    However, I really don’t think 2020 is the right time to announce a black Bond. Maybe back in 2005 they could have got away with it. But not today with the left and right so politicised. It isn’t the right time. Howver…………….I think generally speaking if Idris Elba got cast, no one would care. I think people almost are willing it to happen.


    Thanks for the vid, @suavejmf!

    And...all my black friends think the same. I've got an Angolan friend that is a massive James bond fan and he says the exact same thing. I've got a 48yo friend from Mumbai who is fanatical about the novels and the films and he says that changing Bond's race is stupid. My wife, who is sort of an activist for human rights, often says that decharacterisation of intelectual property for the sake of diversity and/or gender quotas is as stupid as it gets and a symptom of an unintelligent society who has lost a grip on creativity. Just create new and interesting stuff based on current times. Don't go changing historical characters and fictional characters just for the sake of proving a current point. Do it now. Create something in the now. Something fresh and to the point. Don't hijack the past, learn from it sure, but don't hijack things that always worked and that are dear to thousands of people.

    Well said!

    I still don't know what people have got against trying to find an actor that closely resembles the character that Fleming wrote? Is having a dark haired white actor that difficult to comprehend playing the part of Bond?

    If people find it that offensive for a white actor to play the part of Bond, then I don't believe they are true Bond fans.

    Did Fleming get it so wrong in his description of Bond that it needs radically changing drastically?

    Imagine the reaction if a remake of Shaft was made with a white male lead.

    Well it wouldn’t even get ‘put forward’ would it? Because Shaft is a cultural icon. But saying Bond should be white is immediately racist apparently! That video I posted shows how ludicrous it is to change Flemings creation/ character.

    Another point is that the film credits always say/ state ‘as IAN FLEMING’S James Bond 007’.....if Bond isn’t white they need to stop that as it won’t be anymore.

    IF they ever is a non-white actor to play Bond that doesn't mean the character of James Bond isn't still white. You are playing James Bond....a lighter skin multi-racial actor (think the skin tone of Vin Diesal) could still pull off playing James Bond. Remember this is acting.

    Yes it does. The character of Bond is a white male. That is not my opinion, it is a fact. Ian Fleming said so and all the films/ cartoon strips portray him as such. What you are talking about is re-inventing the character as mixed race.

    And there's where the difference between Book Bond and Film Bond come into play. Yes, Ian Fleming wrote Bond as a white male. But he doesn't decide who gets to play the 7th incarnation of Bond on the big screen. Barbara Broccoli and Michael G. Wilson do. And if they want to screentest actors that aren't white, they are free to do so. If they at the end of that process come to the conclusion that the best man to play the role is a non-white actor, they are free to cast him.

    BB and MGW are the ones who decide how Bond looks in the film universe. It is entirely separate from what Ian Fleming wrote. Or it has become that way.

    And frankly, thank goodness for that. I doubt Fleming would've approved Bond taking orders from a female boss, or that his best buddy at the CIA was someone else than a white American. But by doing something totally different from Fleming, BB and MGW gave us two actors who redefined the roles of M and Felix Leiter. And I trust the producers of this film series to do the thing that is best for the series to move forward.

    But with the character of bond the producers have always ‘gone back to Fleming’ . With the exception of Daniel’s blonde hair, which is of little consequence. Furthermore, the film series has still set the precedent of Bond being white for nearly 60 years. Would you cast Bad Boys 3 (Out next week) with Jude Law and High Grant? No.....because that would be stupid. Because the lead characters are black men.

    Could you cast Bad Boys 4 with The Rock and Vin Diesal? Both are of mixed-raced and that would be fine same as someone of mixed-raced think a young Wentworth Miller could be cast as Bond.

    No not really because the characters are black.

    Wentworth Miller is not white and is American so his CV would be filed ‘in the trash’ as Americans say.

    So being half-black and half-samoan The Rock should not have played Roadblock in GI Joe because the character was black?

    Sorry I don’t know anything about GI Joe at all and haven’t seen the film. It’s hardly on an iconic, traditional and historic par with Bond. However, yes if the character was black in the comic or cartoon the Rock shouldn’t have played him as he isn’t black.

    You do realize that by taking that approach that anyone of mixed ethnicity would only be allowed to play new character so mixed-ethinicities right? You seriously think that's the way it should be? Aidan Tuner looks like he was born to play Bond and is my top choice for Bond but he's darker than some mixed/light skinned people of color. So should Aidan not be allowed to be Bond because he has a darker skin tone than say Cillian Murphy?

    No because Aidan Turner is a Brit who looks like Fleming’s description of Bond....great choice! Murphy is too odd looking for Bond IMO. He’s more Dominic Green than 007.

    Ok I’ll re phrase.....Bond is a male caucasian Brit......Just read Fleming or watch the films and you’ll get the drift of it.

    I own and have read all the Fleming Bonds (as well as some of the post-fleming Bonds) I also own and have watched all the Bond films. Im not suggesting changing the character of Bond. Im just stating that the race of the actor does not change the character because you are portraying a character you are playing a role. When you play a doctor on tv the actor does not have to be an actual doctor. It's no different here. But, changing gears here the only actor of color who would crack even my top 20 choices for the next Bond is Henry Goulding and he's near the back of the list for me.

  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    parkert5 wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    parkert5 wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    parkert5 wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    parkert5 wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    parkert5 wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Univex wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    I take @00Agent comments on board, tradition is key to the Bond franchise. The vital elements have to be there – you need Bond, the villain, the girls, the car, the action, the locations – but it doesn’t stop you changing and evolving those elements.

    Bond as a character wouldn’t fundamental change if you changed his race. The character of Bond – a suave, cool, enigmatic, sophisticated, dangerous, charming killer with a taste for the finer things – doesn’t change if you make him black.

    The best examples I can pose are the castings of Naomie Harris and Jeffrey Wright….both actors played roles previously played by white actors. The tradition associated with those characters didn’t change with those castings. They are still Leiter and Moneypenny.

    01%2BNaomie%2BHarris%2Bas%2BEve%2BMoneypenny.jpg
    06%2BJeffrey%2BWright%2Bas%2BFelix%2BLeiter.jpg

    The same would be the case with Bond.

    However, I really don’t think 2020 is the right time to announce a black Bond. Maybe back in 2005 they could have got away with it. But not today with the left and right so politicised. It isn’t the right time. Howver…………….I think generally speaking if Idris Elba got cast, no one would care. I think people almost are willing it to happen.


    Thanks for the vid, @suavejmf!

    And...all my black friends think the same. I've got an Angolan friend that is a massive James bond fan and he says the exact same thing. I've got a 48yo friend from Mumbai who is fanatical about the novels and the films and he says that changing Bond's race is stupid. My wife, who is sort of an activist for human rights, often says that decharacterisation of intelectual property for the sake of diversity and/or gender quotas is as stupid as it gets and a symptom of an unintelligent society who has lost a grip on creativity. Just create new and interesting stuff based on current times. Don't go changing historical characters and fictional characters just for the sake of proving a current point. Do it now. Create something in the now. Something fresh and to the point. Don't hijack the past, learn from it sure, but don't hijack things that always worked and that are dear to thousands of people.

    Well said!

    I still don't know what people have got against trying to find an actor that closely resembles the character that Fleming wrote? Is having a dark haired white actor that difficult to comprehend playing the part of Bond?

    If people find it that offensive for a white actor to play the part of Bond, then I don't believe they are true Bond fans.

    Did Fleming get it so wrong in his description of Bond that it needs radically changing drastically?

    Imagine the reaction if a remake of Shaft was made with a white male lead.

    Well it wouldn’t even get ‘put forward’ would it? Because Shaft is a cultural icon. But saying Bond should be white is immediately racist apparently! That video I posted shows how ludicrous it is to change Flemings creation/ character.

    Another point is that the film credits always say/ state ‘as IAN FLEMING’S James Bond 007’.....if Bond isn’t white they need to stop that as it won’t be anymore.

    IF they ever is a non-white actor to play Bond that doesn't mean the character of James Bond isn't still white. You are playing James Bond....a lighter skin multi-racial actor (think the skin tone of Vin Diesal) could still pull off playing James Bond. Remember this is acting.

    Yes it does. The character of Bond is a white male. That is not my opinion, it is a fact. Ian Fleming said so and all the films/ cartoon strips portray him as such. What you are talking about is re-inventing the character as mixed race.

    And there's where the difference between Book Bond and Film Bond come into play. Yes, Ian Fleming wrote Bond as a white male. But he doesn't decide who gets to play the 7th incarnation of Bond on the big screen. Barbara Broccoli and Michael G. Wilson do. And if they want to screentest actors that aren't white, they are free to do so. If they at the end of that process come to the conclusion that the best man to play the role is a non-white actor, they are free to cast him.

    BB and MGW are the ones who decide how Bond looks in the film universe. It is entirely separate from what Ian Fleming wrote. Or it has become that way.

    And frankly, thank goodness for that. I doubt Fleming would've approved Bond taking orders from a female boss, or that his best buddy at the CIA was someone else than a white American. But by doing something totally different from Fleming, BB and MGW gave us two actors who redefined the roles of M and Felix Leiter. And I trust the producers of this film series to do the thing that is best for the series to move forward.

    But with the character of bond the producers have always ‘gone back to Fleming’ . With the exception of Daniel’s blonde hair, which is of little consequence. Furthermore, the film series has still set the precedent of Bond being white for nearly 60 years. Would you cast Bad Boys 3 (Out next week) with Jude Law and High Grant? No.....because that would be stupid. Because the lead characters are black men.

    Could you cast Bad Boys 4 with The Rock and Vin Diesal? Both are of mixed-raced and that would be fine same as someone of mixed-raced think a young Wentworth Miller could be cast as Bond.

    No not really because the characters are black.

    Wentworth Miller is not white and is American so his CV would be filed ‘in the trash’ as Americans say.

    So being half-black and half-samoan The Rock should not have played Roadblock in GI Joe because the character was black?

    Sorry I don’t know anything about GI Joe at all and haven’t seen the film. It’s hardly on an iconic, traditional and historic par with Bond. However, yes if the character was black in the comic or cartoon the Rock shouldn’t have played him as he isn’t black.

    You do realize that by taking that approach that anyone of mixed ethnicity would only be allowed to play new character so mixed-ethinicities right? You seriously think that's the way it should be? Aidan Tuner looks like he was born to play Bond and is my top choice for Bond but he's darker than some mixed/light skinned people of color. So should Aidan not be allowed to be Bond because he has a darker skin tone than say Cillian Murphy?

    No because Aidan Turner is a Brit who looks like Fleming’s description of Bond....great choice! Murphy is too odd looking for Bond IMO. He’s more Dominic Green than 007.

    Ok I’ll re phrase.....Bond is a male caucasian Brit......Just read Fleming or watch the films and you’ll get the drift of it.

    I own and have read all the Fleming Bonds (as well as some of the post-fleming Bonds) I also own and have watched all the Bond films. Im not suggesting changing the character of Bond. Im just stating that the race of the actor does not change the character because you are portraying a character you are playing a role. When you play a doctor on tv the actor does not have to be an actual doctor.

    Even if they perform surgery?
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    edited January 2020 Posts: 5,131
    parkert5 wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    parkert5 wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    parkert5 wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    parkert5 wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    parkert5 wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Univex wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    I take @00Agent comments on board, tradition is key to the Bond franchise. The vital elements have to be there – you need Bond, the villain, the girls, the car, the action, the locations – but it doesn’t stop you changing and evolving those elements.

    Bond as a character wouldn’t fundamental change if you changed his race. The character of Bond – a suave, cool, enigmatic, sophisticated, dangerous, charming killer with a taste for the finer things – doesn’t change if you make him black.

    The best examples I can pose are the castings of Naomie Harris and Jeffrey Wright….both actors played roles previously played by white actors. The tradition associated with those characters didn’t change with those castings. They are still Leiter and Moneypenny.

    01%2BNaomie%2BHarris%2Bas%2BEve%2BMoneypenny.jpg
    06%2BJeffrey%2BWright%2Bas%2BFelix%2BLeiter.jpg

    The same would be the case with Bond.

    However, I really don’t think 2020 is the right time to announce a black Bond. Maybe back in 2005 they could have got away with it. But not today with the left and right so politicised. It isn’t the right time. Howver…………….I think generally speaking if Idris Elba got cast, no one would care. I think people almost are willing it to happen.


    Thanks for the vid, @suavejmf!

    And...all my black friends think the same. I've got an Angolan friend that is a massive James bond fan and he says the exact same thing. I've got a 48yo friend from Mumbai who is fanatical about the novels and the films and he says that changing Bond's race is stupid. My wife, who is sort of an activist for human rights, often says that decharacterisation of intelectual property for the sake of diversity and/or gender quotas is as stupid as it gets and a symptom of an unintelligent society who has lost a grip on creativity. Just create new and interesting stuff based on current times. Don't go changing historical characters and fictional characters just for the sake of proving a current point. Do it now. Create something in the now. Something fresh and to the point. Don't hijack the past, learn from it sure, but don't hijack things that always worked and that are dear to thousands of people.

    Well said!

    I still don't know what people have got against trying to find an actor that closely resembles the character that Fleming wrote? Is having a dark haired white actor that difficult to comprehend playing the part of Bond?

    If people find it that offensive for a white actor to play the part of Bond, then I don't believe they are true Bond fans.

    Did Fleming get it so wrong in his description of Bond that it needs radically changing drastically?

    Imagine the reaction if a remake of Shaft was made with a white male lead.

    Well it wouldn’t even get ‘put forward’ would it? Because Shaft is a cultural icon. But saying Bond should be white is immediately racist apparently! That video I posted shows how ludicrous it is to change Flemings creation/ character.

    Another point is that the film credits always say/ state ‘as IAN FLEMING’S James Bond 007’.....if Bond isn’t white they need to stop that as it won’t be anymore.

    IF they ever is a non-white actor to play Bond that doesn't mean the character of James Bond isn't still white. You are playing James Bond....a lighter skin multi-racial actor (think the skin tone of Vin Diesal) could still pull off playing James Bond. Remember this is acting.

    Yes it does. The character of Bond is a white male. That is not my opinion, it is a fact. Ian Fleming said so and all the films/ cartoon strips portray him as such. What you are talking about is re-inventing the character as mixed race.

    And there's where the difference between Book Bond and Film Bond come into play. Yes, Ian Fleming wrote Bond as a white male. But he doesn't decide who gets to play the 7th incarnation of Bond on the big screen. Barbara Broccoli and Michael G. Wilson do. And if they want to screentest actors that aren't white, they are free to do so. If they at the end of that process come to the conclusion that the best man to play the role is a non-white actor, they are free to cast him.

    BB and MGW are the ones who decide how Bond looks in the film universe. It is entirely separate from what Ian Fleming wrote. Or it has become that way.

    And frankly, thank goodness for that. I doubt Fleming would've approved Bond taking orders from a female boss, or that his best buddy at the CIA was someone else than a white American. But by doing something totally different from Fleming, BB and MGW gave us two actors who redefined the roles of M and Felix Leiter. And I trust the producers of this film series to do the thing that is best for the series to move forward.

    But with the character of bond the producers have always ‘gone back to Fleming’ . With the exception of Daniel’s blonde hair, which is of little consequence. Furthermore, the film series has still set the precedent of Bond being white for nearly 60 years. Would you cast Bad Boys 3 (Out next week) with Jude Law and High Grant? No.....because that would be stupid. Because the lead characters are black men.

    Could you cast Bad Boys 4 with The Rock and Vin Diesal? Both are of mixed-raced and that would be fine same as someone of mixed-raced think a young Wentworth Miller could be cast as Bond.

    No not really because the characters are black.

    Wentworth Miller is not white and is American so his CV would be filed ‘in the trash’ as Americans say.

    So being half-black and half-samoan The Rock should not have played Roadblock in GI Joe because the character was black?

    Sorry I don’t know anything about GI Joe at all and haven’t seen the film. It’s hardly on an iconic, traditional and historic par with Bond. However, yes if the character was black in the comic or cartoon the Rock shouldn’t have played him as he isn’t black.

    You do realize that by taking that approach that anyone of mixed ethnicity would only be allowed to play new character so mixed-ethinicities right? You seriously think that's the way it should be? Aidan Tuner looks like he was born to play Bond and is my top choice for Bond but he's darker than some mixed/light skinned people of color. So should Aidan not be allowed to be Bond because he has a darker skin tone than say Cillian Murphy?

    No because Aidan Turner is a Brit who looks like Fleming’s description of Bond....great choice! Murphy is too odd looking for Bond IMO. He’s more Dominic Green than 007.

    Ok I’ll re phrase.....Bond is a male caucasian Brit......Just read Fleming or watch the films and you’ll get the drift of it.

    I own and have read all the Fleming Bonds (as well as some of the post-fleming Bonds) I also own and have watched all the Bond films. Im not suggesting changing the character of Bond. Im just stating that the race of the actor does not change the character because you are portraying a character you are playing a role. When you play a doctor on tv the actor does not have to be an actual doctor. It's no different here. But, changing gears here the only actor of color who would crack even my top 20 choices for the next Bond is Henry Goulding and he's near the back of the list for me.

    Bonds ethnicity is caucasian, so altering this is changing the characters appearance. Henry Golding looks Chinese. So he’s not Bond. That’s the same as casting Colin Firth as Shaft. It IS changing the character, as race IS a fundamental part of the character.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,161
    Why do people insist on bringing in a black actor to play Bond?
    1. Have we suddenly run out of capable white male actors?
    2. Can't a new black spy series be created without hijacking an existing one?
    3. Can I as a white, heterosexual male please have someone left to connect with in this age of race/gender/... role models everywhere?
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,196
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Why do people insist on bringing in a black actor to play Bond?
    1. Have we suddenly run out of capable white male actors?
    2. Can't a new black spy series be created without hijacking an existing one?
    3. Can I as a white, heterosexual male please have someone left to connect with in this age of race/gender/... role models everywhere?

    Standing Ovation!
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    talos7 wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Why do people insist on bringing in a black actor to play Bond?
    1. Have we suddenly run out of capable white male actors?
    2. Can't a new black spy series be created without hijacking an existing one?
    3. Can I as a white, heterosexual male please have someone left to connect with in this age of race/gender/... role models everywhere?

    Standing Ovation!

    +1
  • Posts: 3,327
    suavejmf wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    parkert5 wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Univex wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    I take @00Agent comments on board, tradition is key to the Bond franchise. The vital elements have to be there – you need Bond, the villain, the girls, the car, the action, the locations – but it doesn’t stop you changing and evolving those elements.

    Bond as a character wouldn’t fundamental change if you changed his race. The character of Bond – a suave, cool, enigmatic, sophisticated, dangerous, charming killer with a taste for the finer things – doesn’t change if you make him black.

    The best examples I can pose are the castings of Naomie Harris and Jeffrey Wright….both actors played roles previously played by white actors. The tradition associated with those characters didn’t change with those castings. They are still Leiter and Moneypenny.

    01%2BNaomie%2BHarris%2Bas%2BEve%2BMoneypenny.jpg
    06%2BJeffrey%2BWright%2Bas%2BFelix%2BLeiter.jpg

    The same would be the case with Bond.

    However, I really don’t think 2020 is the right time to announce a black Bond. Maybe back in 2005 they could have got away with it. But not today with the left and right so politicised. It isn’t the right time. Howver…………….I think generally speaking if Idris Elba got cast, no one would care. I think people almost are willing it to happen.


    Thanks for the vid, @suavejmf!

    And...all my black friends think the same. I've got an Angolan friend that is a massive James bond fan and he says the exact same thing. I've got a 48yo friend from Mumbai who is fanatical about the novels and the films and he says that changing Bond's race is stupid. My wife, who is sort of an activist for human rights, often says that decharacterisation of intelectual property for the sake of diversity and/or gender quotas is as stupid as it gets and a symptom of an unintelligent society who has lost a grip on creativity. Just create new and interesting stuff based on current times. Don't go changing historical characters and fictional characters just for the sake of proving a current point. Do it now. Create something in the now. Something fresh and to the point. Don't hijack the past, learn from it sure, but don't hijack things that always worked and that are dear to thousands of people.

    Well said!

    I still don't know what people have got against trying to find an actor that closely resembles the character that Fleming wrote? Is having a dark haired white actor that difficult to comprehend playing the part of Bond?

    If people find it that offensive for a white actor to play the part of Bond, then I don't believe they are true Bond fans.

    Did Fleming get it so wrong in his description of Bond that it needs radically changing drastically?

    Imagine the reaction if a remake of Shaft was made with a white male lead.

    Well it wouldn’t even get ‘put forward’ would it? Because Shaft is a cultural icon. But saying Bond should be white is immediately racist apparently! That video I posted shows how ludicrous it is to change Flemings creation/ character.

    Another point is that the film credits always say/ state ‘as IAN FLEMING’S James Bond 007’.....if Bond isn’t white they need to stop that as it won’t be anymore.

    IF they ever is a non-white actor to play Bond that doesn't mean the character of James Bond isn't still white. You are playing James Bond....a lighter skin multi-racial actor (think the skin tone of Vin Diesal) could still pull off playing James Bond. Remember this is acting.

    Yes it does. The character of Bond is a white male. That is not my opinion, it is a fact. Ian Fleming said so and all the films/ cartoon strips portray him as such. What you are talking about is re-inventing the character as mixed race.

    And there's where the difference between Book Bond and Film Bond come into play. Yes, Ian Fleming wrote Bond as a white male. But he doesn't decide who gets to play the 7th incarnation of Bond on the big screen. Barbara Broccoli and Michael G. Wilson do. And if they want to screentest actors that aren't white, they are free to do so. If they at the end of that process come to the conclusion that the best man to play the role is a non-white actor, they are free to cast him.

    BB and MGW are the ones who decide how Bond looks in the film universe. It is entirely separate from what Ian Fleming wrote. Or it has become that way.

    And frankly, thank goodness for that. I doubt Fleming would've approved Bond taking orders from a female boss, or that his best buddy at the CIA was someone else than a white American. But by doing something totally different from Fleming, BB and MGW gave us two actors who redefined the roles of M and Felix Leiter. And I trust the producers of this film series to do the thing that is best for the series to move forward.

    But with the character of bond the producers have always ‘gone back to Fleming’ . With the exception of Daniel’s blonde hair, which is of little consequence. Furthermore, the film series has still set the precedent of Bond being white for nearly 60 years. Would you cast Bad Boys 3 (Out next week) with Jude Law and High Grant? No.....because that would be stupid. Because the lead characters are black men.

    But then I have to ask you, where do you draw the line, and why?
    So it's okay for the films to deviate from the source material when it comes to Bond's hair colour. Length too, presumably. A black Bond is too far for you.
    But is a female M okay? A black Felix Leiter? A black Moneypenny? Someone other than Bond being 007? If Bond marries Swann in NTTD, is it okay for her to become Mrs. Bond, and not Tracy?

    What I'm trying to say, the producers have deviated from Book Bond for quite a long time now, but when is Bond not Bond anymore? The films are already not 100% true to what Fleming wrote. Why is a non-white Bond too far, but previous alterations okay?

    Draw the line? It has to be at Bond himself. You can change secondary characters to modernise it, by all means. But the reason why the films have survived and been successful for nearly 60 years is because the central character hasn't deviated too much from what Fleming wrote.

    Yes, over the years he's had brown hair, brown eyes and blonde hair, which drifts from the literary description, but he's always been white. The character is an old fashioned relic from a bygone era, rooted in a past of Empire Britain, the Cold War and sexist attitudes towards women. The world around Bond changes, but Bond himself doesn't.

    Once you change skin colour too, then Bond is a generic action spy, and not the 1950's dinosaur relic that Fleming wrote about.

    Hell, he doesn't even need to be from Britain anymore. Why not make him Spanish, and work for the Spanish Secret Service instead? Why not make him American and become an American 007?

    You seem hell bent on trying to change the basis of the character to something else that you may feel more comfortable with, and I'm not entirely sure why. Do you think a black actor would bring out something more in the character that has been severely lacking all these years? Did EON get it wrong all this time?

  • 00Agent00Agent Any man who drinks Dom Perignon '52 can't be all bad.
    Posts: 5,185
    The people who ever brought up the black/Female Bond idea must be the same people that think the Codename theory should be canon. To them Bond is just some action hero Spy in a suit with no cultural history other than 'he has a british accent'.

    They don't have a clue, they don't care. We shouldn't even be talking about this really.
  • edited January 2020 Posts: 3,327
    I don't believe there is anything such as a 'true fan' - simply put, you buy your ticket for the film like anyone else, your money is as good as the next person.

    Just because you're devoted more hours to something doesn't make someone's opinion superior to another 'fan'. It is just that, your opinion.

    You're welcome to not like the idea of a black actor - and in turn, I'm welcome to disagree. There is no right answer in this debate.

    I see film as a director's medium - essentially it is an art form. If the artist believes that there is a reason or point to making Bond black (i.e, a black actor is better suited to the part than any of the other candidates) then so be it. It's like Hamlet - he was conceived as a white man. But his characteristics aren't exclusive to his race - hence why a number of people have played him and reinterpreted the same text.

    The same goes for Bond. he is't Nelson Mandela, Tony Blair or Frank Sinatra - he' not a really person. He's a fictional character. Therefore, its at the whim of the artist to interpret.

    As a one-off movie, an artist can do whatever he or she wants. As a 60 year old established franchise, an artist doesn't have that much say on such hugely significant things. The producers do.

    I can see just picture it now. A director hired on the next Bond film, sitting relaxed in his chair, feet up on the desk, and telling Babs, `Ok, I have decided I want the next actor to be black, or Chinese, or Indian - anything but British white. And what I say goes, because I am the creative artist here. It is all down to my interpretation! To hell with Fleming's original description of who Bond is. I am the person in charge now, and I will tell you who Bond is. And he is anything but white. In fact, I don't even want to audition any white males for the role, because they are simply not right for the character I have in mind.'

    I wonder how long that director would last...
  • edited January 2020 Posts: 3,327
    00Agent wrote: »
    The people who ever brought up the black/Female Bond idea must be the same people that think the Codename theory should be canon. To them Bond is just some action hero Spy in a suit with no cultural history other than 'he has a british accent'.

    They don't have a clue, they don't care. We shouldn't even be talking about this really.

    I know, its tedious. I cannot believe dedicated Bond fans on this forum are happy to see Bond become black, as though that will give the character a new dimension that succeeds any previous actor in the role, and also dismisses anything that Fleming wrote about.

    Did Fleming get it so badly wrong all those years ago? Did EON get it so badly wrong in their casting too?
  • edited June 2022 Posts: 932
    .
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    It's all fun and games till it doesn't sell tickets

    Exactly... not sure how they would sell the Bond franchise in the Chinese market....
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited January 2020 Posts: 24,161
    00Agent wrote: »
    The people who ever brought up the black/Female Bond idea must be the same people that think the Codename theory should be canon. To them Bond is just some action hero Spy in a suit with no cultural history other than 'he has a british accent'.

    They don't have a clue, they don't care. We shouldn't even be talking about this really.

    I know, its tedious. I cannot believe dedicated Bond fans on this forum are happy to see Bond become black, as though that will give the character a new dimension that succeeds any previous actor in the role, and also dismisses anything that Fleming wrote about.

    Did Fleming get it so badly wrong all those years ago? Did EON get it so badly wrong in their casting too?

    My point exactly.

    I don't want to enter a debate regarding where we draw the line. It's nothing we can gauge objectively; at some point, a man just stops looking like a James Bond and sometimes the phrase, "you know it when you see it" makes perfect sense. The notion that people who accept a light-haired Bond but reject a black Bond are weak in their defence is a false argument. In our appreciation of "art"--and I'm using the word in its broadest sense possible--we cannot always deconstruct, measure and archive everything minutely and mathematically. Some things are generally just more sensitive than others. Bond's hair is a purely aesthetical element. But skin colour isn't. It is a cultural and nowadays even more than that, a political thing. The "James Blonde" thing from way back when was something that only kept some internet trolls running. But if they cast a black Bond, you'd have one political side cry "victory" in the loudest possible way, and another posting angry comments in response.

    But that's not what I want to know. I want to know what the fact of changing Bond's skin colour will bring to the series that we are now missing in a big bad way. Either the answer is nothing at all, and then there's no point in wanting it; or the answer is something or a lot, and then it's implied that having a white Bond all those decades was a mistake travelling back to Fleming. The latter option would pose a serious problem.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,767
    parkert5 wrote: »
    It is acting. The actual race of the actor does not change the race of the character.
    Hmm. So the black actor could self-identify as the established white character.

    Or by extension an actress could self-identify as the established male character.

    I'd like a beer.

  • Posts: 6,709
    suavejmf wrote: »
    talos7 wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Why do people insist on bringing in a black actor to play Bond?
    1. Have we suddenly run out of capable white male actors?
    2. Can't a new black spy series be created without hijacking an existing one?
    3. Can I as a white, heterosexual male please have someone left to connect with in this age of race/gender/... role models everywhere?

    Standing Ovation!

    +1

    Hear, hear!!
  • JeremyBondonJeremyBondon Seeking out odd jobs with Oddjob @Tangier
    Posts: 1,318
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Why do people insist on bringing in a black actor to play Bond?
    1. Have we suddenly run out of capable white male actors?
    2. Can't a new black spy series be created without hijacking an existing one?
    3. Can I as a white, heterosexual male please have someone left to connect with in this age of race/gender/... role models everywhere?

    You are a breath of fresh air, a thoroughly needed voice of reason. Thank you.

    /thread
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,161
    parkert5 wrote: »
    Im just stating that the race of the actor does not change the character because you are portraying a character you are playing a role.

    This makes sense. We've had men playing women and vice versa. We've had white actors painting their faces black or yellow to portray Africans, Chinese, ... We've had kids playing grown-ups and adults playing teens. And we almost always fail at completely suspending disbelief except in a very rare few cases. Joseph Wiseman's Dr No comes to mind, but not much else. In theory, I agree with your statement, @parkert5, but I'm not "there" yet. I cannot yet be expected to simply abstract 007 from anyone --or, why not, anything--portraying him on screen, no matter what the looks, gender, age, physique,... of that someone. For me, and clearly, for many others here, 007 comes as the total package, a collection of things we immediately lock our sense onto and evaluate.

    Daniel Craig in CR: James Bond
    Tom Cruise in M:I: not James Bond
    Audrey Hepburn in Two For The Road: not James Bond
    Sean Connery in GF: James Bond
    Mickey Rooney in Breakfast At Tiffany's: not James Bond, nor Japanse!
    ...

    I think it's still a tad more complicated than what your statement suggests, though I'm fascinated by it. What am I willing to accept before I cry 'nonsense'? Interesting. :)
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    I just don't trust a script writer to not make something of it.

    Imagine being the first writer to get the chance to imagine a Bond script with the actor being black or Asian.

    Do you really think they won't want to make a statement.

    If it could be that they just present Bond as they have always done, paying no attention to his skin colour possibly it might work but I just don't think that would happen.

    Maybe not a total rewrite of the character but definitely some tweaks that wouldn't have been part of the previous 6 actors and what happens next time round, will it be OK to give the role to a white person again?
  • Posts: 11,425
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    I have a friend who is more of a fan of the novels than the films and says Idris would be the truest to Fleming's character.
    I've never seen Idris in anything that I can recall. So I know nothing of his acting ability or suaveness level.
    Looking at him, though I think he looks like he might make a decent Mike Hammer rather than Bond.

    Idris in 2005 would have been awesome.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,196
    Getafix wrote: »
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    I have a friend who is more of a fan of the novels than the films and says Idris would be the truest to Fleming's character.
    I've never seen Idris in anything that I can recall. So I know nothing of his acting ability or suaveness level.
    Looking at him, though I think he looks like he might make a decent Mike Hammer rather than Bond.

    Idris in 2005 would have been awesome.

    In what role? 😏
  • Posts: 11,425
    If pollitical correctness hasn't gone mad, then why is it ok to call black people black, when they aren't actually black? Unless there is someone out there, who is genuinely noir.

    Anyway, i'd like to continue my support for Scott Adkins. When I think of Bonds image, lately I have been think not of the Hoagy Carchmichael comparrison, but of Vivienne's reaction in TSWLM. With that in mind, I think Adkins fits that more than any other candidate right now.

    There is also that guy in the gambling advert, he needs a hair cut and shave, but he has a strong, tough look to his face, one might even say a little weathered. I can't imagine another unknown being cast though.

    Why do we call white people white when they're actually pink?
  • JeremyBondonJeremyBondon Seeking out odd jobs with Oddjob @Tangier
    Posts: 1,318
    Getafix wrote: »
    If pollitical correctness hasn't gone mad, then why is it ok to call black people black, when they aren't actually black? Unless there is someone out there, who is genuinely noir.

    Anyway, i'd like to continue my support for Scott Adkins. When I think of Bonds image, lately I have been think not of the Hoagy Carchmichael comparrison, but of Vivienne's reaction in TSWLM. With that in mind, I think Adkins fits that more than any other candidate right now.

    There is also that guy in the gambling advert, he needs a hair cut and shave, but he has a strong, tough look to his face, one might even say a little weathered. I can't imagine another unknown being cast though.

    Why do we call white people white when they're actually pink?

    I feel offended. Boohoo.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Shardlake wrote: »
    I just don't trust a script writer to not make something of it.

    Imagine being the first writer to get the chance to imagine a Bond script with the actor being black or Asian.

    Do you really think they won't want to make a statement.

    If it could be that they just present Bond as they have always done, paying no attention to his skin colour possibly it might work but I just don't think that would happen.

    Maybe not a total rewrite of the character but definitely some tweaks that wouldn't have been part of the previous 6 actors and what happens next time round, will it be OK to give the role to a white person again?

    Bond is Bond. Hoagy Carmichael but with a cruel mouth and a comma of hair that falls across his forehead and just above his (right?) eye. Variations of this with lots of diversity around him (lovers, enemies and allies)-- of course!! Just like in any multi-cultural city, I want to see that represented in James Bond films. But the character is who he is... as many have said, stray too far from that and he really is no more.

    James Bond has been with us, in one form or another, since 1953... update his sensibilities but keep his essence-- yes!!

    But it'd be nice to have respect for the history of this character (warts and all, and how he has progressed to still be alive in this very multi-media world of ours)...

    (plus, as we see in some markets, they're not quite so open to Western sensibilities to see diversity in their popcorn entertainment (https://variety.com/2015/film/news/star-wars-china-poster-controversy-john-boyega-1201653494/)).
  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,129
    I know he's Australian, but I still think Chris Hemsworth would be worth screen testing.
    He has many of the qualities required for the role. He does have a lot of stuff in the pipeline so he'd be an outside chance at best.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,196
    Benny wrote: »
    I know he's Australian, but I still think Chris Hemsworth would be worth screen testing.
    He has many of the qualities required for the role. He does have a lot of stuff in the pipeline so he'd be an outside chance at best.
    Absolutely...
  • Posts: 11,425
    Benny wrote: »
    I know he's Australian, but I still think Chris Hemsworth would be worth screen testing.
    He has many of the qualities required for the role. He does have a lot of stuff in the pipeline so he'd be an outside chance at best.

    Been saying this for ages, especially if they want to go for a more humorous take. He's a brilliant comic actor. He's definitely worth consideration.
  • OctopussyOctopussy Piz Gloria, Schilthorn, Switzerland.
    Posts: 1,081
    z52_rYKgWYGJXlnbwsAf3oHQy2uNCfBlE6SpTqEMc2w.jpg?auto=webp&s=84196b3faec6bf70db22cd2b48d20c32b262e966

    I'll say it once and I'll say it again.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    Octopussy wrote: »
    z52_rYKgWYGJXlnbwsAf3oHQy2uNCfBlE6SpTqEMc2w.jpg?auto=webp&s=84196b3faec6bf70db22cd2b48d20c32b262e966

    I'll say it once and I'll say it again.

    Fassbender would have smashed it earlier, I said when I saw him in Inglourious Basteds what an incredible Bond he would make and then that opening moment in X-Men First Class cemented it.

    If the next Bond isn't turning up for 5 - 6 years then Fassbender will be close to 50, it will depend how he ages, I certainly wouldn't boycott a film with him if they wanted to make it with an older actor.

    Although like Hardy he is a name and I don't see them diverting from casting actors that are made famous from the role not they are famous and cast.

    Not sure about Hemsworth he certainly would be one way to go if they wanted to lighten things up, although again he's not exactly not had exposure, he has been part of on of the biggest franchise in cinema history.

    I don't see BB casting a name, I guess we'll see, although if they are putting the films on a hiatus I would pretty much say even favourites on here are not likely to be cast.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    Getafix wrote: »
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    I have a friend who is more of a fan of the novels than the films and says Idris would be the truest to Fleming's character.
    I've never seen Idris in anything that I can recall. So I know nothing of his acting ability or suaveness level.
    Looking at him, though I think he looks like he might make a decent Mike Hammer rather than Bond.

    Idris in 2005 would have been awesome.

    Yes, he’d have made a great Mr. Big in a Live and alert Die reimagining. I agree.
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,423
    parkert5 wrote: »
    It is acting. The actual race of the actor does not change the race of the character.
    Hmm. So the black actor could self-identify as the established white character.

    Or by extension an actress could self-identify as the established male character.

    I'd like a beer.

    Or a tree.
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