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Dumping of Mathis's body in QoS

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  • Master_DaharkMaster_Dahark
    Posts: 4,813
    I too am arriving late to this discussion....
    I think it was a good example of the cold life a spy must lead- the mission does come first, and Mathis was dead and as Bond said, 'he wouldn't care'. It's not like Craig was laughing hysterically while throwing him in there, either, lol. He definitely wasn't happy doing what he did. He had to hurry, hide the body, and get on.

    Now, if Mathis was still alive? Then yeah, it would have been mean
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    I'm sure it has happened somewhere in the world but that's not really the point of the discussion. It's whether the scene is appropriate.
  • forgotmyusernameforgotmyusername
    Posts: 2,782
    the scene was appropriate to add a layer to rebooted Bond - it's like how SC's JB used to slap women around to get the answer he wanted. No compulsion the mission came first. And DC's Bond is no different as he says right at the start of QofS - 'he's motivated by his duty and that dead don't worry about vengence'
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited June 2011 Posts: 11,189
    to add a layer to rebooted Bond
    Maybe it's just me but this phrase sounds a little too pretentious and PR-like for my taste (before anyone says I know PB said it too in the press conference for GE). It wouldn't have happened in Connery's early days thats for sure.

  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited June 2011 Posts: 15,723
    @forgetmyusername There is a difference between slapping women and dumping people in bins. Butt-slapping girls was very cool and fashionable, but I don't know what's cool and fashionable to dump dead friends into bins. Lots of people would have loved to butt-slap women around, but I doubt people will follow Bond act of dumping someone into a bin. The former was cultural phenomenon, the latter is purely non-important for the world. Only us hardcore Bond fans will debate whether or not dumping Mathis into a bin was good or wrong. Connery Bond was about utter assurance, charm, charisma, self-confidence... That scene in QOS was the complete oposite of that. Craig Bond in that scene was a spur-of-the-moment thinking, irrational, erratic... Even when Connery Bond acted on-the-spot, there was still bucket loads of self-confidence and assurance, and he was still utterly cool and a cultural/sex icon... I'm not sure what a women could find in a man that would dump her into a bin in a split-second decision.
  • forgotmyusernameforgotmyusername
    Posts: 2,782
    to add a layer to rebooted Bond
    Maybe it's just me but this phrase sounds a little too pretentious and PR-like for my taste (before anyone says I know PB said it too in the press conference for GE). It wouldn't have happened in Connery's early days thats for sure.

    I acknowledge your (clever) (devastating) (hilarious) insult.


    No butt-slapping, more like upper cuts.

    DC dumped him in the bin for a dramatic pause in the film...a sharp in take of breath for the audience, a real shocker to show us that this Bond is in a real dirty world...plus I don't think DC wanted his mate eaten by the dogs on road...
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited June 2011 Posts: 15,723
    James Bond is a cultural/sexual icon, @forgetmyusername... I don't know what's sexy about a man that would dump his best-friend of female lover into a bin in a split-second decision. We are talking about a character that has bucket loads of assurance and self-confidence... I saw none of that in that scene, but instead erratic, irrational behavior. Connery looked cool no-matter what. You can say the same about Moore aswell. Craig Bond is a like a dumbed down, Statham-the-action-man version of Bond. I hope this destroying of the franchise and character stops in B23.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited June 2011 Posts: 11,189
    to add a layer to rebooted Bond
    Maybe it's just me but this phrase sounds a little too pretentious and PR-like for my taste (before anyone says I know PB said it too in the press conference for GE). It wouldn't have happened in Connery's early days thats for sure.

    I acknowledge your (clever) (devastating) (hilarious) insult.


    No butt-slapping, more like upper cuts.

    I didn't mean it to be an insult against you. It's just that phrase I have a problem with. It's a phrase thats been used by the Bond producers before.

    No hard feelings.
  • 00Beast00Beast
    Posts: 4,762
    Yeah, I watched Quantum of Solace a few days ago and I did find this scene very peculiar. I had never thought of the robbery notion; I just assumed that Bond was trying to get rid of his sadness over Mathis' death, and that by dumping his body in a dumpster, he could sort of "bury his feelings", if you'll excuse the pun.
  • bondboy007bondboy007
    Posts: 267
    I don't really care that he dumped Mathis in the dumpster. I cared that they killed him off after bringing him back. I thought his character should've continued into the future.
  • actonsteveactonsteve
    edited June 2011 Posts: 1,492
    James Bond is a cultural/sexual icon, @forgetmyusername... I don't know what's sexy about a man that would dump his best-friend of female lover into a bin in a split-second decision. We are talking about a character that has bucket loads of assurance and self-confidence... I saw none of that in that scene, but instead erratic, irrational behavior. Connery looked cool no-matter what. You can say the same about Moore aswell. Craig Bond is a like a dumbed down, Statham-the-action-man version of Bond. I hope this destroying of the franchise and character stops in B23.

    It was just a scene showing the very dirty side of espionage and the unpleasant decisions agents have to make. He had to make a quick decision over a man who had grown to like. Thats actually called character development.


  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,346
    @BAIN123 If it's common for thugs to dispense bodies in dumpsters in South America it makes sense for Bond to dump Mathis there, except for the fact that it was a setup and he'd be blamed anyway. But that kind of mistake P&W have made more often. Then it just shows Bond's capabilities of ditaching himself from emotions when the situation calls for such behaviour. His taking of Mathis's wallet directs into this line of thought.

    I personally can't think of any other good reason. Other than that I agree with bondboy007. Mathis was too good a character to kill off after two films.

  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    Posts: 4,399
    I am not for or against the scene of Mathis' death, but I feel robbed by his death so early in Craig's era... He was a great character, and I would've liked to see him in more outings with Craig... and in a bigger role. Just like Wright's Leiter. Both Giannini and Wright are great, charismatic actor, they seem wasted in either 2 minutes roles, or deaths coming way too early.
    I agree with you DC. It does seem a bit of a shame that Mathis was somewhat underused and killed off so early.

    Also, if QoS was set so soon after CR then how come Mathis had already recovered from his ordeal and was living a life of luxury with his mistress? Presumably he was interrogated at length, maybe even tortured after they took him away in Royale :-?

    Silly film ;)

    from when Mathis was dragged off in CR to Bond meets him in QOS... there is easily probably 2-3 weeks gone by.... you gotta remember that whole time Bond and Vesper had together before arriving in Venice.. that was probably easily at least a week... then after Vesper dies, and Bond tracks down White, probably another additional 3-5 days.... so your looking at more than enough time.... especially after it was made known that Vesper was the real traitor, not Mathis..

  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited June 2011 Posts: 11,189
    Hmm maybe but at the end of CR Bond says that "it proves that she's guilty not that he's innocent - could have been a double-bluff". Mathis seemed to still be under suspicion when Vesper died and the film ended.
  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    Posts: 4,399
    i think this business of dumping the body into the bin or not is distracting from the underlying theme that that scene was meant to show - as i said before, and thanks @NicNac for agreeing with me lol....

    but again, the underlying theme of the scene (much like in FRWL) is not how Bond disposes of the body, but the fact that Bond had learned to shut himself off emotionally and carry on with the mission - the lines spoken "Is this how you treat your friends?" "he wouldn't care." are obviously meant to directly contrast the scene - it's meant to show Bond's emotional wall.... obviously Bond does care, but he needs to complete his mission...

    i don't know what to make of it the scene - in terms of if he was making it look like a robbery or not... who knows... but the scene didn't bother me - i felt it was quite sad...
  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    Posts: 4,399
    Hmm maybe but at the end of CR Bond says that "it proves that she's guilty not that he's innocent - could have been a double-bluff". Mathis seemed to still be under suspicion when Vesper died and the film ended.
    I think M had more than enough reason to believe that Mathis was innocent.... remember, James response was directly after the woman he loved set him up, almost got him killed, and then killed herself in the process... of course, his emotions are going to be a little scattered..... he learned his lesson (as M said) it doesn't mean that they were going to continue torturing Mathis - after all signs pointed to Vesper being the lone traitor.

  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited June 2011 Posts: 11,189
    Possibly, but then again she should trust Bond's judgement. Sure he's just lost the love of his life but he's assured M that he's not affected by Vesper. Bond's spent most of the film trying to convince M that he's professional enough not to let his emotions get in the way of his job. I think when he said that about Mathis's possible guilt he meant it.

    Maybe I'm over-thinking things :-?

    Don't want to get too far off topic.
  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    Posts: 4,399
    sure he meant it... but remember - M's line "sometimes we are so focused on our enemies, we lose sight of our friends." (something close to that anyway).. she knew Bond was hurt, but also had to remind him why he was still alive, Vesper bargained her life for his.... this is the exact issue that leads into QOS - she believes Bond is a loose cannon because of being emotional unstable after the betrayal and death of Vesper - which is why she was so overly critical of him in the film...

    but again, the only frame of time we know of is between the two films - they QOS takes place almost immediately after the ending of CR... but the time frame between the events in rehab hospital, venice, and then the very end of the film are not known - it's easy to speculate that it was only 1 or 2 days - but it's also easy to speculate that it might have been quite a bit longer.. more than enough time to clear Mathis.... besides, we don't know how long Mathis was at his villa either in QOS - maybe it was only a few days..
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited June 2011 Posts: 11,189
    Its funny how the time gap between the end of CR and the start of QoS seems to change from minutes to a couple of hours depending on which articles you read.
  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    Posts: 4,399
    i would have to say it's somewhere inbetween - it's obviously enough time for Bond to be tailed and then start to be shot at... i wouldn't say hours lol thats a little too long... but it's easily probably 10 - 20 minutes after......

    my biggest problem was the continuity - Bond's hair suddenly grew an additional inch.. his shirt changed from very light blue, to white.. and he lost his vest lol.... oh well - it happens in movies... thought they would've at least caught those things though..
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    I think "soon after" is probably the key phrase ;)

    http://hmssweblog.wordpress.com/2011/05/08/quantum-of-solace-a-reappraisal/

    This lists the continuity errors (including the Mathis one)
  • thelordflasheartthelordflasheart
    Posts: 1,370
    i would have to say it's somewhere inbetween - it's obviously enough time for Bond to be tailed and then start to be shot at... i wouldn't say hours lol thats a little too long... but it's easily probably 10 - 20 minutes after......

    my biggest problem was the continuity - Bond's hair suddenly grew an additional inch.. his shirt changed from very light blue, to white.. and he lost his vest lol.... oh well - it happens in movies... thought they would've at least caught those things though..
    I know some people would think that it's a minor thing but the fact that Craig has a different haircut between CR and QoS really bothered me, considering that there's only supposed to be 15 minutes or a couple of hours between the films (depending on who you listen to). Maybe Craig had lost a little more hair and they couldn't get it to look the same when they started costume fittings?

    But the fact that he's wearing a different outfit is even worse. They had the rest of the film to dress him in Tom Ford; they could have kept him in the same suit for the first 15 minutes...

  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    I don't really care that he dumped Mathis in the dumpster. I cared that they killed him off after bringing him back. I thought his character should've continued into the future.
    Agreed. I would have liked to see more from Mathis as an ally, at least more so than Felix.
  • forgotmyusernameforgotmyusername
    edited June 2011 Posts: 2,782
    Seriously I think they got rid of him because of the sub-text about their relationship - a bromance was brewing - Bond's central relationship since the reboot has always been with M - and that could not have been allowed to be overshadowed.

    I also wanted to see Mathis slip in and out and in and out of future Bond's from time to time.
  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    Posts: 4,399
    Seriously I think they got rid of him because of the sub-text about their relationship - a bromance was brewing - Bond's central relationship since the reboot has always been with M - and that could not have been allowed to be overshadowed.
    lol - but then why bring Felix back?

  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,288
    I think they gave Mathis too little to do in QoS, so his death elicits a more or less neutral response from me. I do, however, enjoy Bond’s perfectly defendable and efficient move of taking the man’s money and then dumping the corpse. It’s a bit risqué and I like that in a Bond film.
  • zebrafishzebrafish <°)))< in Octopussy's garden in the shade
    Posts: 4,350
    In my view there is a similarly disturbing scene in QoS that shocked me as being entirely inappropriate in a James Bond movie.
    I am talking about the "Upskirt scene" with Oona Castilla Chaplin, where she plays the receptionist at Perla de las Dunas that is about to be raped by general Medrano. When she escapes, she swings over the bed with legs parted, and Marc Forster aims the camera at her crotch, as if to show what all the fuzz was about.
    Was this really necessary? It is such a cheap shot (and already then I foresaw that many preadolescent boys would look forward to pause their DVD players at this scene once the DVD was out, as they do here) and not worthy of a Bond movie. Moreover, I can't imagine that Oona Castilla was happy with this.
    What do others here think?
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    I don't have a problem with it. Muder, sexual abuse, it's all part and parcel of Bond's world and if conveyed and translated onto screen well and with good tatste, all the better for it. The cartoon accosiation so aptly burned onto our brains by the antics of Moore and Brosnan need to be toned down. This is a ruthless world we're dealing with and for all the lavish, beauty and fun there should be in a Bond movie, there should also be some of that grim factor.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,723
    I don't have a problem with it. Muder, sexual abuse, it's all part and parcel of Bond's world and if conveyed and translated onto screen well and with good tatste, all the better for it.
    But was it necessary to show her crotch ?
  • forgotmyusernameforgotmyusername
    Posts: 2,782
    Seriously I think they got rid of him because of the sub-text about their relationship - a bromance was brewing - Bond's central relationship since the reboot has always been with M - and that could not have been allowed to be overshadowed.
    lol - but then why bring Felix back?

    They didn't want JB to be too much of a lady's man, sorry man's man, no no sorry tart.
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