Dumping of Mathis's body in QoS

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Comments

  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    Posts: 4,399
    I don't have a problem with it. Muder, sexual abuse, it's all part and parcel of Bond's world and if conveyed and translated onto screen well and with good tatste, all the better for it.
    But was it necessary to show her crotch ?
    She clearly has underwear on... rewatch the scene - i must've watched it 1,000 times already, and she is clothed - meaning Forster wasn't trying to pull any silly business - call the guy a hack, or whatever you want - but i think he understand the mood and context of a scene, and wouldn't throw in something so childish in a dramatic scene......... f'n please..

    but if you want a real crotch shot - go pop in TND, and rewatch the scene with Bond and the Danish teacher - the shot where Bond is looking for his phone, right after you hear her say "just ignore it." - total t**t shot.....

    .... but i don't hear anyone barking up Roger Spotiswood's tree..

  • Posts: 11,189
    Yeah but that scene was meant to what be light and fun ;)
  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    Posts: 4,399
    Yeah but that scene was meant to what be light and fun ;)
    and a good ol' fashioned rape scene isn't????

    ;-)

    OMGzz JUST KIDDING!!! lol

    it is really time to put that scene to rest though - it was an upskirt shot, yes.. but it was not intentional, and she clearly had underwear on..... that's it...

    the end...
  • Posts: 11,189
    The one problem I have with that rape scene is that it doesn't really add anything to the film or the character. We already know he's unpleasant so why include it?
  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    Posts: 4,399
    i had no real problem with it really... did it need to be in the film? probably not... but it was just in there to show you how sleazy and dirty this man was...

    plus..... in a character psychology way - it was a chance for Camille to save a woman from the same fate that her mother (and sister?) were dealt at the hands of that man.... that's how i view it.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited July 2011 Posts: 15,718
    The glamour and exotism of Bond films reduced to a rape scene...
  • DoctorKaufmannDoctorKaufmann Can shoot you from Stuttgart and still make it look like suicide.
    Posts: 1,261
    Well, from time to time I actually feel the desire to throw one of my neighbours in a nearby trashbin, but the society would not appreciate this as a kind act of mercy and nice behaviour...
  • edited July 2011 Posts: 1,894
    I didn't think or felt much abt the scene where Bond dumped Mathis's body in the dumpster after he died.. But after my recent viewing of the movie again, that scene really disturbed me. Dumping a dead friend into a dumpster, it just didn't feel right... I'm sure there could have been a better way rather than dumping him with garbage at a nearby dumpster.. What does everyone here think about that scene?
    It's not really explained in the film, but there are several reasons why Bond dumps Mathis' body the way he does:

    1) He knows that the two cops he kills in the street are corrupt. He doesn't want Rene Mathis to be tied up as an associate of them and have his named smeared again. On a somewhat related note, by this point in the film, it is obvious that Mathis no longer cares whether he lives, and is instead trying to find a place to die. Undignified as having his body thrown in a dumpster might be, Mathis death does have meaning for Bond; that meaning is more important than the cause.

    2) He has to split the crime scene up. La Paz's finest will concentrate on the two dead bodies in the street, and they may not be too concerned with the dumpster to begin with. Even if they find Mathis' body straight away, they would treat it as two separate crimes - especially when they find Mathis has apparently been robbed. They would treat the deaths of the two officers as the priority case.

    3) He needs to buy time. Even if moving Mathis' body only gets Bond and Camille ten extra minutes before Quantum start hunting them down, that's ten minutes that they would not otherwise have. To compound the problem, Bond does not have long to decide what to do - the last thing he wants is for the police and Quantum to find him standing in the middle of the street, still trying to figure out what to do.

    Of those reasons, number three is perhaps the one the film comes closest to acknowledging. Bond needs to buy as much time as he can. He is starting to realise just how dangerous Quantum really is, and needs whatever comes his way. He is not visibly uncomfortable with the act, but he is well aware that in his line of work, he has to do things that might be distasteful. This is all a part of Bond's metamorphasis: ever since Vesper's death, he has started looking at the big picture. Mathis' death is just a detail, and one that he cannot afford to get hung up on.

    And there is, of course, the possibility that Mathis was a part of Quantum all along. We never actually see any evidence that he is innocent, and given what we know about Quantum, it is entirely possible that its agents operate in cells, unaware of the others. The whole thing reeks of indecision on the part of Paul Haggis, as if he changed his mind about Mathis' guilt or innocence halfway through, but we only ever have Mathis' word that he was innocent all along. MI6 might have given him the tower at Talamone as repatriation, but for all we know, M was never convinced of his innocence and stationed agents (hell, even Gemma could have been an agent) to watch over him before Bond arrived.
    The one problem I have with that rape scene is that it doesn't really add anything to the film or the character. We already know he's unpleasant so why include it?
    Because Camille is planning on killing him in cold blood. In order to compensate, the audience needs to see that Medrano is completely deserving of it so that we feel Camille is justified in killing him. Especially since the actual scene played out in such a way that Camille was defending herself when she killed him. Prior to that scene, we only have Camille's word that Medrano did those things to her mother and sisters. The only thing we've actually seen from Medrano is that he's sleazy and has no remorse, but he doesn't really do anything villainous. It's also been established that sexual predators are creatures of habit; if Medrano has committed rape once before, there is a chance that he has done it since. It would be somewhat out of character for him not to do it.

    It may also be a commentary on critics who claim Bond is not simply a womaniser, but misogynistic; a case of "this is what actual misogyny looks like".
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited July 2011 Posts: 15,718
    It's not really explained in the film, but there are several reasons why Bond dumps Mathis' body the way he does
    Just because there are reasons to this scene, doesn't mean it feels right or needed. There a reason(s) to everything that happens in the world... doesn't make them right or good.

    I felt dumping Mathis in the bin was not necessary and un-Bond like. You can give me all the reasons about why this scene happened, it will not change my views on it. I can name some reasons on why the slide-whistle happened in TMWTGG, doesn't mean you'll suddenly like it.

  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    Posts: 4,399
    So when Mathis gets tossed in the bin, should he have gotten the slide whistle too?
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited July 2011 Posts: 24,183
    So when Mathis gets tossed in the bin, should he have gotten the slide whistle too?
    Wow, if you think DC007 implied something like that in his post, you're way off, friend.

  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,266
    DC007 nobody can make you feel something is more- or less Bondian, so such a remark might be a bit off in this discussion. Many here have allready said why they thought it to be Bondian and explained their opinions with facts. So why don't you give it a try? You might sharpen someone elses vision, the whole purpose of discussion.
  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    Posts: 4,399
    @DarthDimi

    No I wasn't lol.... I'm merely having fun - a slide turns the frowns of any scene upside down...... like when Bond finds Della dead in LTK - a slide whistle really could've lifted the mood a bit... :)
  • Posts: 2,491
    why you hate the scene i actually think it is one of the most remembable scenes in the movie.
  • Posts: 1,894
    Just because there are reasons to this scene, doesn't mean it feels right or needed. There a reason(s) to everything that happens in the world... doesn't make them right or good.

    I felt dumping Mathis in the bin was not necessary and un-Bond like. You can give me all the reasons about why this scene happened, it will not change my views on it. I can name some reasons on why the slide-whistle happened in TMWTGG, doesn't mean you'll suddenly like it.
    What could Bond have reasonably done differently in that situation then?
  • Posts: 7,653
    It is the one scene in the EON series where EON almost deliberately takes a dump on one of Flemings characters that actually is a friend of James Bond. The way they portraited Mathis in CR & QoS is a source of annoyance for me. It was tasteless and unnecessary.
  • Posts: 1,092
    It is a great scene, very powerful.
  • Posts: 267
    I thought Mathis was used exceptionally in CR. For those who hadn't read the book before seeing CR in '06 (99% of those who saw the movie) using Mathis as a way to hide Vesper's betrayal was necessary. I loved that they'd brought him back in QoS, and loved the character. I just really hated that they killed him off. I would've liked to see him and Felix continue in the series - even after Craig's tenure is over.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    I thought Mathis was used exceptionally in CR. For those who hadn't read the book before seeing CR in '06 (99% of those who saw the movie) using Mathis as a way to hide Vesper's betrayal was necessary. I loved that they'd brought him back in QoS, and loved the character. I just really hated that they killed him off. I would've liked to see him and Felix continue in the series - even after Craig's tenure is over.
    I too think that Mathis needn't have died but bringing him back for each subsequent film isn't what I would have done. The risk of him becoming Bond's sidekick pal, the Robin to his Batman so to speak, would be too large. He already felt that way in QoS - at least a little bit.

    After Craig's tenure is over, however, I would have appreciated had they killed off Mathis anyway. There's a certain chemistry between actors and we can't always generate that same chemistry when one of both is replaced. E.g. Perdo Armendáriz and Connery worked almost like brothers on screen but somehow I can't see the first working equally well with Moore. As for David Hedison, he managed quite well with Moore but I didn't see the whole 'brother' thing in LTK all that clearly.
  • Posts: 11,189
    Just watching QoS now and that scene has just come on. It is a bit of a shame that the last shot of Mathis is him lying dead in a rubbish bin. Giancarlo Giannini is arguably more charismatic than Daniel Craig so its a pity he won't be coming back.
  • doubleonothingdoubleonothing Los Angeles
    Posts: 864
    I'm frankly surprised Bond waited until he was dead. I think he should dump everyone he meets into a dumpster at some point. And why no pithy one liner? Surely we could have had "what a waste" at the very least?
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    edited July 2011 Posts: 8,266
    I'm frankly surprised Bond waited until he was dead. I think he should dump everyone he meets into a dumpster at some point. And why no pithy one liner? Surely we could have had "what a waste" at the very least?
    True, but you don't always have a dumpster about. So there is a major problem. Allthough at Bregenz there ought to have been a possibility i recon, aiming the personal guard from the roof. And the oneliner too: "Such an end to life is just rubbish" would have worked too IMO.

  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    I asked this in another topic, but don't recall reading a reply. Why does Bond ask Mathis if Mathis was his cover name?
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Well Creasy, I could supply a couple guesses. One, Mathis at this point had two run ins with Quantum(Le Chiffre/being investigated) and now in his connection to the Chief of Police(a traitor to Mathis) so Bond mentions his cover isn't a good one for all the trouble its caused. Two, Bond knew then that the Chief of Police was behind Mathis's death and he questioned Mathis about his cover name because of that. The way i see after watching the scene again, Mathis leaves Bond and Fields to talk to the Chief, and Greene had already encountered Bond that evening. Since both Greene and the Chief were both in Quantum, Greene could have passed on the information that Mathis was with Bond, as the two do hang around together at the event and were likely seen together by Greene. So, Mathis goes to meet the Chief, has his cover blown and gets killed. Bond then sees that his cover was blown, and asks if Mathis was his cover name because maybe the Chief knew him by another name and when Greene mention that his was Mathis he was exposed and killed. Bond further mentions it wasn't a very good one possibly because it has gotten him in many fixes. I don't know and that's all I can surmise. One of the elephants in the room about QoS were the sequences where we were supposed to think for ourself, but this was different. The ending with Bond/Yusef was well handled because it made sense to block the viewer out, but this scene STILL baffles me no matter how much I watch it. I dunno about you Creasy but the first time I watched QoS i thought one of two things: Either my mind couldn't understand the plot or the plot was so confusing and jumbled at times that it was hard to discern.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Sorry for the double post; I have no idea why that happened!
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    Thank you for that reply, 0Brady. Mine was the latter, I believe: so many instances where I was confused. It took me five theater viewings to fully get a grasp on most of my questions, and even then, I was still confused about certain things. There were quite a few scenes like that, and it felt like the plot wasn't worked on as much as the film was merely moving from action piece to action piece - which was still entertaining to watch, as CR was more story-driven, but now that I think about it, CR was my favorite. QoS was just way too confusing at times, and the whole cover name thing didn't help in the slightest.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Agreed. Hopefully Bond 23/24 fit in story first and action later. It needs to be done, especially with Craig's Bond. EON can live and learn.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    If I recall correctly, Mendes' 'Road To Perdition' did that: little bit of action with a great storyline. I know Mendes won't have a problem handling the story, my only worry from here on out will end up being how he tackles the action. Story is very important, but if the action can't really deliver or excite me, then I'll be upset.
  • 0Brady - my take on the cover name line was that it was meant to share a moment of "reality" between the characters. Bond was speaking to the real man in his final moments, not the fake identity of "Mathis".

    Having said that, the line about Mathis not be a very good cover name was terribly unclear. I took it to be why give an Italian man a French cover name? But I like the ideas above much better.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    Yeah, there are just so many possibilities and no clear explanation as to why Bond asks that. It's more of a guessing game.
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