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Out if interest why aren't you a Dalton fan?
Nice list. Bottom end is solid. Top 2, very solid as well.
SF maybe a little high there in the middle grouping but understandable, as neither TWINE nor DAD are tour de forces. Both have their issues as does SF.
As for frequency of viewing, I don''t hesitate to pop any of GE, TND, TWINE or even CR or QoS into the machine. QoS is the worst of the lot due to its deficiencies, but its pros are quite strong thus watchable, ie Olga and more Olga, the cinematography, general look and vibe, even if it winds down and ends real downer like. It works as an alternative Bond take though.
SF and DAD are the two I really need to be motivated to watch. There is nothing much at all that I like about SF, other than a few scenes here and there that work well, such as the pts and Casino interlude. The asssault and battle at SF manor isn't bad either. The rest of it though - mostly meh or yawn or cringe.
DAD, I really do like but for the hideous titles and song, and the last chunk, meaning everything from beyond the ice palace. Everything on the cargo plane is torture to sit through. The infamous ice-flow cgi is also egregious.
But the best moments of the first 80% of the film make it a good entertaining Bond watch. I'm happy to rank it above any of the dreary re-boot efforts.
I hate to be Mr Curmudgeon always moaning but as everyone else seems to be fine with this ('quirky selection', 'interesting point of view', 'nice list') it appears that it falls to me. If good men do nothing etc, etc:
This is not a 'nice list' in the slightest. It is an utter bollocks list.
I can live with someone rating QOS highly, I can excuse TWINE being highly rated as it does try to do something different but someone who thinks DAD is the 3rd best film out of these 7 is simply an imbecile.
Yes folks imbecile - shock horror - thats what I said. I can also add cretin, moron and retard if you want. 'But Wizard you cant say that - hes entilted to his opinion' I hear you all leaping to say at me condemning someone so scathingly. And to that I say, 'F**k off'!
Its bad enough that someone thinks DAD is better than TND which would be just about excusable by using the old 'its my opinion' get out of jail free card but if you think DAD is better than CR, GE and SF you really are mentally challenged to the point where plankton would outscore you in an IQ test.
I like the way CR gets marked down for having 'generic action' but no ripping into DAD for its over choreographed PTS and sword fight and its CGI wankfest. CR is also guilty of 'too much forced box ticking' apparently - a crime the Brosnan era is entirely free of.
The highlight though must be SF having 'no ethics'?!? What does this even mean? That the CGI Komodo dragons werent sustainably sourced and were cruelly deleted instead of being sent to a virtual Komodo dragon sanctuary after filming? Pray tell which ethics SF is bereft of that DAD (or any other Bond film for that matter) has in abundance?
I must be missing something but apparently a villain played as if hes on stage in a pantomime in Skegness also starring the Chuckle Brothers, a Bond girl whose part is written and acted so appallingly that it makes the Mary Goodnight role seem prospective Oscar material, a humiliatingly poor CGI action scene that would shame the SNES for cutting edge graphics and an invisible car that has everyone in the cinema laughing at the character is far better than a story largely written by Ian Fleming (ever heard of him?), a return to Bond being a cold killer rather than a mannequin spouting one liners, one of the best Bond girls ever and real stunts and visceral fights that look as though they hurt.
If you honestly think DAD is better than CR, firstly you have my sympathy in your job slicing gherkins at McDonalds, and secondly you have no business being a James Bond fan and I suggest you gravitate towards something that you might enjoy more, probably starring Vin Diesel or directed by Michael Bay.
And if anyone thinks I'm going over the top in my criticism here I really couldnt give a toss. Afraid I dont subscribe to the 'we have to respect everyone's opinion' PC bullshit? Why can no one be simply told that they are wrong anymore?
Christ its at times like this I miss Sir Henry as he would be weighing straight in here with a bit of common sense as well.
P@WozardOfIce? I've became too nuanced lately on this forum. Thank you for helping me out :-P.
Wanna freak out over my preference for YOLT over CR too?? :))
It's all good, all the time.
I admire @Matt_Helm for not being affected by the above, and that's why I held back in being critical.
I'm curious to know how many closet DAD fans there really are on here....afraid to potentially reveal their true affection/affliction. Speak now or forever hold your piece, as Sir Rog's JB would say!
My turn to stand up and reveal myself to the group. My name is @bondjames, and I am and have always been a closet fan of MR
:))
Oh wait- we're getting way off topic...
@-)
1. CR
2. GE
3. TND
4. SF
5. TWINE
6. QOS
7. DAD
Reverse the bottom 4, and that would be in order of what I find more entertaining to watch.
But FWIW I mostly agree with you.
Wow, fire....
:))
GE still holds a special place for me as it is one of, if not my first, Bond film. I still think the whole movie feels like a "Bond's best hits" collection and a self-parody and it is severely let down by the score. But for the most part all the characters make it enjoyable and strangely enough the script too...and Martin Campbell of course.
The rest of the Brosnan era has its good moments and I still feel sentimental about parts of it. Brosnan is quite convincing in many scenes but just as unconvincing in others. Within the same movie, the quality is way too variable.
First let me emphasise that no other actor ever to me looked and looks more like James Bond than Dalton, but he mainly fell victim to the "not brave enough" syndrome that haunted so many Bond flics. Take the PTS of TLD - great introduction Bond hanging on the cliff face,some serious hunting down the assassin and after all that it gets ridiculed by Bonds behaviour, when he falls down on the yacht. No mentioning on the telephone that there has been an attempt to assassinate the 00 section, no reporting that he got the killer, no just "make that two hours" just so we know he is still the old ever horny womaniser. Hmmm?
TLD is a prime example of this "brave/able" thing I've been talking about. Whatever serious intents they might have had - and for which I had been longing for years -
when they produced it, to me they fell flat on their face with the Laser and rocket loaded car chase in the CSSR (lt alone the Cello case escape complete with mere Passport waving while crossing the austrian border,seemingly endlessly waltzing Vienneses in front of the hotel and,and,and ...).
Also from that point they hit Afghanistan the movie becomes a volatile written bore fest. The fact alone that they have Bond at their mercy and just hand him to this Russian Prison Ward, not even giving some warnings like "this is their most able assassin " or whatever.
The came LTK which only made things worse. Absolutely sound and serious plot, but completely uneven handled. Just take this bar fight that could come right of a Bud Spencer/Terence Hill movie (the swordfish alone make me sick) followed by Bonds ridiculous "leave it to the professionals " speech to the Bouvier Girl. Oh really? After all she had the good sense to come equipped with a shotgun and not a Ladies gun to the "smugglers swamp". Also them sexually interacting right after is perhaps even more forced than Bond "seducing" Fields in QoS, not to mention Bond jumping into the swimming pool for romantic reasons, coupled with this terrible winking fish. I could go on and on . I have watched both movies many times, always trying to like them, but I just can't.
Also for all his bondian looks I have to say Dalton is simply lacking charisma. He always feels somehow wooden,forced and - I hate to say it - overacting. Take his reactions when Saunders gets killed or when he finds the dead Stella. Or when he walks along the shore in LTK ( when the police officer leads him to the Hemingway house) he walks almost hectic and his dialogue delivery feels somehow pressed.
Sorry,but that's how I feel about the Dalton years.
Just a few out of the top of my head.The DB5, to order beluga and Taittinger when he leaves Solange so we are convinced he knows the words, the Batcape like giving of the tailored tuxedo (ridiculous! She meets this impeccably dressed guy in the train and is convinced he needs a new tuxedo whose measurements she's just guessing and voila it fits perfect. Imagine that!)
BTW, I really love its explosive action of the first 20 minutes. It just not Bond (or even spy) style,not to mention this unbelievable tasteless parsley shirt. To me it works much better when I think of it as adaption of one of Chris Ryan's SAS novels.
Craig looks this part very well.
Since I feel that I gave some sound reasoning for my rankings I won't dwell on them again. If you fail to comprehend them you better complain with your parents for not begetting a smarter child (but don't be to hard on them,they certainly tried their best. Still in the end it's all about genetics,you know.)
You mention the "no ethics" label on SF as your highlight and since I haven't given further explanation on that one I might as well do it know. It - of course - referred to Bond watching almost bored the killing of three people ( of which he could have saved one at least,which in this case would even have been the professional thing to do), shagging former child prostitutes and tastelessly commenting on their dead,when he even had promised her to protect her. That's all in all is as unfleming as it gets. His Bond hated killing even when his victims were professional hit men ( let alone the involvement of innocents) and fell in love with just about every girl,that somehow suffered from the"bird with a broken wing" syndrome. Bonds behaviour in SF would have him puke,no less. If you read the books and have failed to realise that, well you might as well admit to yourself, that reading and comprehending is simply not for everyone and you should probably focus on screen adaptions (start with teletubbies and progress from there).
Have a nice day.
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i..e Afghanistan was boring now that you mention it. It could have been handled much better. Although I liked the part in the cell "I did not tell you to get up!!" just from a 'humour' standpoint. That I think goes to the heart of the issue. They were trying, after decades, to inject some seriousness into Bond, realizing it had got too campy. However, they knew that audiences still wanted the humour, and weren't sure how to get the mix right. So they injected humour in various parts of TLD, and it seemed forced and not in keeping with Dalton's JB portrayal. Fake if you will. Personally, I loved the "If only I could find a real man" bit in TLD, but that's me. It surprises me that they were not confident enough about how to go about getting the mix right for a 'serious' Bond movie, because arguably they did get it just right just 6 years earlier in FYEO.
----
RE: LTK - your criticisms are spot on. However, when I recently saw the movie again, I thought Bouvier's weapon was useless in that situation (not maneuverable enough). A submachine gun, I would agree....otherwise give me the PPK anytime. The swordfish bit was horrendous. Yes, the boat interaction was 'forced'. The Bond/Camille argument on the boat in QoS was much better.
And yes, Dalton did lack charisma, especially in relation to Moore, who had it in spades. However, after watching how the Brosnan years descended into near fiasco, I have much more appreciation now for Dalton's portrayal (I was not that much of a fan during his run but at least he was not a changing persona during his run like Brosnan....there was a consistency to his characterization). He's grown on me, but there's no doubt that the magnificent Craig has helped me to appreciate Dalton's serious Bond more. He did deliver the dialogue in a somewhat 'constipated' fashion at times though, & I must agree that his somewhat overemotional reaction to Stella's and Felix's plight rivals Brosnan's near tearful discovery of Electra's betrayal in TWINE. Both low points IMO. And he should have at least bloody combed his hair for LTK! There's no excuse for Bond to be disheveled, emotional upheaval or not.
Interestingly, with both QoS and SF, I get the impression EON was trying to revisit some of the themes of LTK and TWINE in particular respectively. It's almost like they felt they did not quite get it right the first time (balance/humour/Bond's demenor) and so they wanted to give it another shot. All the Haiti stuff in QoS and the renegade Bond reminds me a lot of Key West in LTK. The M nonsense in SF reminds me of TWINE. I think that in both cases, they did it better the 2nd time around. Craig's 2 for 2 in my book.
So you're right. I just am not as bothered by it. Brosnan's flaws on the other hand did grate me very much in TWINE, although I know many can forgive that for similar reasons.
I must admit to not being too familiar with literary Bond. I would have found it difficult to resist shagging Severine though.
RE: his reaction when she was killed. I was a bit surprised by that bit (that was about the point where the whole movie took a nosedive for me though).......I've rationalized it by thinking maybe he was just exhibiting bravado since he did not want to show Silva that he cared. He was similarly nonchalant when Mathis was killed in QoS, and when Solange was killed in CR however.
Well, one is said to get more done with some nice words and a gun in his hand than just with nice words. If you multiply this wisdom with the gaping gates of hell a shotguns bore is you have the gospel! A PPK, beautiful as it is,simply not qualifies outside of Blades Club.
I hadn't this feeling about Mathis dead. He dumped him after his dead ( which would have been the professional thing to do to keep his actions under cover, if he had cared to bother with the policemen as well.) but before that it his reaction felt quite emotional to me.
PS: Interestingly, M was relying on Bond to protect her and he let her down. Severine was as well and was similarly let down. M criticized Bond for this in QoS after Fields was discovered dead. Little did she know she would make the same mistake and pay with her life. The whole 'let's get off the grid because MI6 is compromised' bit in SF was not well handled and is not very believable, admittedly. It's forced.
But in this group we got Brosnan flying to a plane (who is he, Superman??)... and then there's Dan running & smashing through walls & leaping & balancing on bloody great cranes & buildings (who is he, Daredevil??)...
I miss the old days when mountaineering about the Whyte House was a mind-boggling thing to do. Today he'd be seen as a pussy for taking so long to do it... ;)
I just don't see such hyper-gymnastic qualities in the Bond of the novels.
No argument from me (or anyone) about some of Brosnan's antics going too far, though. I don't think there's any way to dispute that.
All well and good but you seem to have rather missed the point of my ire.
I haven't got a problem in the slightest with you criticising any Bond film. CR and SF in particular are far from perfect.
I agree entirely that the fanwankery with the tux and the DB5 in CR is rather crappy.
I'm not sure I can get as annoyed as you by the lack of 'ethics' in SF. Severine used her sex to get Bond to help her out so she knew what she was doing.
You seem to be the expert on Fleming so I defer to your superior knowledge but the following conquests seem pretty dubious by the same ethical standards you apply to Severine:
Gala - basically sexually assaulting her in the sea.
Tiffany - shagging someone who was raped as a teenager.
Tania - shagging a girl who was being forced into it by her paymasters.
Viv - shagging a girl who is probably suffering PTSD after nearly being raped.
Tracy - shagging a girl who is suicidal.
Anyway whatever the merits of your arguments I see you have chosen to ignore the elephant in the room which is: you rate DAD higher than CR - see I'm even throwing you a free pass on SF which suffers from a lot of flaws (although to the think they eclipse DAD's is an act of lunacy).
I'm still waiting for you to come up with anything approaching a coherent argument as to how a DAD is better than CR because if you have read the books and think that 'Yo momma!' has the slightest link to Fleming then 'you might as well admit to yourself, that reading and comprehending is simply not for everyone'.
2. SF
3. QoS
4. GE
5. TWINE
6. DAD
7. TND