BOND POLLS 2015: Best Bond-films "GoldenEye" until "Skyfall" •••FINAL RESULTS•••

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  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    I'm still waiting for you to come up with anything approaching a coherent argument as to how a DAD is better than CR because if you have read the books and think that 'Yo momma!' has the slightest link to Fleming then 'you might as well admit to yourself, that reading and comprehending is simply not for everyone'.
    CR is clearly the superior film, but not the film that absolutely demands to be better liked by all Bond fans. CR deviated from the novel in ways that I, for one. do not appreciate. DAD is by no means Fleming much at all. Both can entertain.
    Want Fleming? 62- 69, and a good bit in 87 & 89 IMO. The rest is what you take from it. As in, OPINIONS. :)>-
    If ever or ever a Wiz there was,
    TheWizardOfIce is one because
    Because because because,
    Because of the grandiose posts he does...
    We're off to flip the Wizard,
    The wonderful wizard of Bondzzzzz

    LOL man, it's all good, all the time. :))
  • I love these discussions :-). Man, what would Ian Fleming himself think about all this? That James Bond has become a little bit...too big? That he's scared Bond will probably never die anymore....and will be among us when the first human sets footsteps on planet Mars? :-P
  • Posts: 7,507
    I'm still waiting for you to come up with anything approaching a coherent argument as to how a DAD is better than CR because if you have read the books and think that 'Yo momma!' has the slightest link to Fleming then 'you might as well admit to yourself, that reading and comprehending is simply not for everyone'.

    =))
  • edited November 2014 Posts: 7,507
    As for Severine's death, I never interpreted Bond's reaction as particularly cynical or heartless. On the contrary I think you can se some understated rage and desperation in Dans eyes:




    But what was he supposed to do? Fall to the ground and cry? And then yell at Silva like this?





    That would have been the Flemigesque thing to do, wouldn't it? Instead he uses his anger to take down the guards. What a shame...
  • jobo wrote: »
    As for Severine's death, I never interpreted Bond's reaction as particularly cynical or heartless. On the contrary I think you can se some understated rage and desperation in Dans eyes:




    But what was he supposed to do? Fall to the ground and cry? And then yell at Silva like this?





    That would have been the Flemigesque thing to do, wouldn't it? Instead he uses his anger to take down the guards. What a shame...

    I am not saying that he could have saved her, even if I find this coming around from shaking nervous wreck to wolverine very unbelievable . But Bond (doesn't matter if novel or movie ) would have -at the very least -expressed his deep disgust. You see especially the one from the novels is (apart from being able to take quite some beating )actually soft as a marshmallow and would have been shocked beyond believe about that behaviour (especially towards a woman) and never ever would have made such a tasteless remark. I still think Fleming would be puking.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,216
    Matt_Helm wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    As for Severine's death, I never interpreted Bond's reaction as particularly cynical or heartless. On the contrary I think you can se some understated rage and desperation in Dans eyes:




    But what was he supposed to do? Fall to the ground and cry? And then yell at Silva like this?





    That would have been the Flemigesque thing to do, wouldn't it? Instead he uses his anger to take down the guards. What a shame...

    I am not saying that he could have saved her, even if I find this coming around from shaking nervous wreck to wolverine very unbelievable . But Bond (doesn't matter if novel or movie ) would have -at the very least -expressed his deep disgust. You see especially the one from the novels is (apart from being able to take quite some beating )actually soft as a marshmallow and would have been shocked beyond believe about that behaviour (especially towards a woman) and never ever would have made such a tasteless remark. I still think Fleming would be puking.

    I don't think the problem so much lies with the way the scene plays out. Dan does a very good job with displaying the bubbling rage that I think novel Bond definitely would have displayed when backed into such a corner.

    The real problem is that Craig's acting and Severine's somewhat tragic and vulgar end are undermined by the fact that the scene or the events are never referenced again. The scene between Silva, Bond and M immediately afterwards would have been appropriate to mention Severine's demise in the context of Bond's behaviour. A throwaway line or two would even have sufficed. Instead, it's completely forgotten. That's the issue, for me.
  • Matt_Helm wrote: »
    Has this thread just dropped over a sanity cliff?

    I hate to be Mr Curmudgeon always moaning but as everyone else seems to be fine with this ('quirky selection', 'interesting point of view', 'nice list') it appears that it falls to me. If good men do nothing etc, etc:
    Matt_Helm wrote: »
    1. TWINE (to me the best Bond since FYEO. Strong story,original plot very much
    rooted in reality. Sure it has got its faults and problems. But so does FYEO)
    2. QoS (actually quite original story,lots of globetrotting - albeit much too rushed - very beautifully filmed)
    3. DAD (strictly for its first half. Up until to Bond gets introduced to the "Vanish" this
    Is quite sound 007 style to me.)
    4. TND (if only for its Hamburg part sans the reckless destruction of the travel shop.
    Terrible Beginning, uninspired plot and ending. About the PTS - knew Bond must be a master with a joystick between his legs , but even then this is just as laughable as the plane diving "stunt" in GE. Embarrassing wanna be style. )
    5. CR (simply not the wonder some have made it to be. Just too much "unbondian" behaviour, generic action and much too much forced box ticking)
    6. GE (is the reason why TND is the only Bond movie I haven't seen on the big screen. I just had had it after this one. Randomly and careless mass killing on full auto die hard style, not to mention Bond "flying" to catch his plane, and,and,and. Since every Bond since FYEO to me had be more or less a letdown I thought they just had lost it. It was not until a friend lent me a VHS tape of TND that its middle part convinced me that there was still some enjoyment to have with 007)
    7. SF ( No logic,no ethics,no points )

    This is not a 'nice list' in the slightest. It is an utter bollocks list.

    I can live with someone rating QOS highly, I can excuse TWINE being highly rated as it does try to do something different but someone who thinks DAD is the 3rd best film out of these 7 is simply an imbecile.

    Yes folks imbecile - shock horror - thats what I said. I can also add cretin, moron and retard if you want. 'But Wizard you cant say that - hes entilted to his opinion' I hear you all leaping to say at me condemning someone so scathingly. And to that I say, 'F**k off'!

    Its bad enough that someone thinks DAD is better than TND which would be just about excusable by using the old 'its my opinion' get out of jail free card but if you think DAD is better than CR, GE and SF you really are mentally challenged to the point where plankton would outscore you in an IQ test.

    I like the way CR gets marked down for having 'generic action' but no ripping into DAD for its over choreographed PTS and sword fight and its CGI wankfest. CR is also guilty of 'too much forced box ticking' apparently - a crime the Brosnan era is entirely free of.

    The highlight though must be SF having 'no ethics'?!? What does this even mean? That the CGI Komodo dragons werent sustainably sourced and were cruelly deleted instead of being sent to a virtual Komodo dragon sanctuary after filming? Pray tell which ethics SF is bereft of that DAD (or any other Bond film for that matter) has in abundance?

    I must be missing something but apparently a villain played as if hes on stage in a pantomime in Skegness also starring the Chuckle Brothers, a Bond girl whose part is written and acted so appallingly that it makes the Mary Goodnight role seem prospective Oscar material, a humiliatingly poor CGI action scene that would shame the SNES for cutting edge graphics and an invisible car that has everyone in the cinema laughing at the character is far better than a story largely written by Ian Fleming (ever heard of him?), a return to Bond being a cold killer rather than a mannequin spouting one liners, one of the best Bond girls ever and real stunts and visceral fights that look as though they hurt.

    If you honestly think DAD is better than CR, firstly you have my sympathy in your job slicing gherkins at McDonalds, and secondly you have no business being a James Bond fan and I suggest you gravitate towards something that you might enjoy more, probably starring Vin Diesel or directed by Michael Bay.

    And if anyone thinks I'm going over the top in my criticism here I really couldnt give a toss. Afraid I dont subscribe to the 'we have to respect everyone's opinion' PC bullshit? Why can no one be simply told that they are wrong anymore?

    Christ its at times like this I miss Sir Henry as he would be weighing straight in here with a bit of common sense as well.

    Since I feel that I gave some sound reasoning for my rankings I won't dwell on them again. If you fail to comprehend them you better complain with your parents for not begetting a smarter child (but don't be to hard on them,they certainly tried their best. Still in the end it's all about genetics,you know.)
    You mention the "no ethics" label on SF as your highlight and since I haven't given further explanation on that one I might as well do it know. It - of course - referred to Bond watching almost bored the killing of three people ( of which he could have saved one at least,which in this case would even have been the professional thing to do), shagging former child prostitutes and tastelessly commenting on their dead,when he even had promised her to protect her. That's all in all is as unfleming as it gets. His Bond hated killing even when his victims were professional hit men ( let alone the involvement of innocents) and fell in love with just about every girl,that somehow suffered from the"bird with a broken wing" syndrome. Bonds behaviour in SF would have him puke,no less. If you read the books and have failed to realise that, well you might as well admit to yourself, that reading and comprehending is simply not for everyone and you should probably focus on screen adaptions (start with teletubbies and progress from there).
    Have a nice day.

    All well and good but you seem to have rather missed the point of my ire.

    I haven't got a problem in the slightest with you criticising any Bond film. CR and SF in particular are far from perfect.

    I agree entirely that the fanwankery with the tux and the DB5 in CR is rather crappy.

    I'm not sure I can get as annoyed as you by the lack of 'ethics' in SF. Severine used her sex to get Bond to help her out so she knew what she was doing.

    You seem to be the expert on Fleming so I defer to your superior knowledge but the following conquests seem pretty dubious by the same ethical standards you apply to Severine:

    Gala - basically sexually assaulting her in the sea.
    Tiffany - shagging someone who was raped as a teenager.
    Tania - shagging a girl who was being forced into it by her paymasters.
    Viv - shagging a girl who is probably suffering PTSD after nearly being raped.
    Tracy - shagging a girl who is suicidal.

    Anyway whatever the merits of your arguments I see you have chosen to ignore the elephant in the room which is: you rate DAD higher than CR - see I'm even throwing you a free pass on SF which suffers from a lot of flaws (although to the think they eclipse DAD's is an act of lunacy).

    I'm still waiting for you to come up with anything approaching a coherent argument as to how a DAD is better than CR because if you have read the books and think that 'Yo momma!' has the slightest link to Fleming then 'you might as well admit to yourself, that reading and comprehending is simply not for everyone'.



    Talking about forced arguments.


    1.Gala - basically sexually assaulting her in the sea.
    I don't remember Moonraker very good, but I am quite sure he didn't screw her. So I am not quite sure what you mean.

    2.Tiffany - shagging someone who was raped as a teenager.
    That's exactly my point. If I remember correctly he approaches her very slowly, eager not to hurt or shy her away. He even gets engaged with her! Do I need to say more?

    3.Tania - shagging a girl who was being forced into it by her paymasters.
    He doesn't know that. To him she's a girl that has fallen in love with his "movie star looks" and he admits to Kerim loving her.

    4.Viv - shagging a girl who is probably suffering PTSD after nearly being raped.
    Pardon? The girl sing sinking in the man's arms,who has just saved her from a threat is a theme as old as storytelling itself.

    5.Tracy - shagging a girl who is suicidal.
    And of course he falls in love with her. He even marries her! Notice a trend?

    Also, about DAD ( and again I'm talking roughly about its first half). Well, what Bond is doing is just where I see the place of 00 agents. Infiltrating and eliminating a threat or annoyance for the UK. Many of the tasks we see Bond doing especially in the various PTSes are actually handled by the able guys of the SAS and SBS. Not so approaching the target on a "social" level, infiltrating and finally killing it.
    So I fail to see the "absolutely unfleming " argument here. Also compared to some other PTS (like TND for instance) I see DADs almost a low key.
  • Matt_Helm wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    As for Severine's death, I never interpreted Bond's reaction as particularly cynical or heartless. On the contrary I think you can se some understated rage and desperation in Dans eyes:




    But what was he supposed to do? Fall to the ground and cry? And then yell at Silva like this?





    That would have been the Flemigesque thing to do, wouldn't it? Instead he uses his anger to take down the guards. What a shame...

    I am not saying that he could have saved her, even if I find this coming around from shaking nervous wreck to wolverine very unbelievable . But Bond (doesn't matter if novel or movie ) would have -at the very least -expressed his deep disgust. You see especially the one from the novels is (apart from being able to take quite some beating )actually soft as a marshmallow and would have been shocked beyond believe about that behaviour (especially towards a woman) and never ever would have made such a tasteless remark. I still think Fleming would be puking.

    I don't think the problem so much lies with the way the scene plays out. Dan does a very good job with displaying the bubbling rage that I think novel Bond definitely would have displayed when backed into such a corner.

    The real problem is that Craig's acting and Severine's somewhat tragic and vulgar end are undermined by the fact that the scene or the events are never referenced again. The scene between Silva, Bond and M immediately afterwards would have been appropriate to mention Severine's demise in the context of Bond's behaviour. A throwaway line or two would even have sufficed. Instead, it's completely forgotten. That's the issue, for me.

    I agree. We remember Roger Moore for the cheesy and comedical element he gave to Bond. But he HAD his moments where he was really emotionally shocked by the actions of the villain.

    When Max Zorin kills the mayor of San Fransisco, he truly looked shocked: "I am thrilled of admiration!" he clearly said, but doing so in such a shocked way. The same goes during the entire chase to neutralize the atomic bomb at US Base Feldstadt in "Octopussy". To Orlov he basically screams out of anger: "You can't risk a full-scale nuclear war! What happens when the US retaliates!". Orlov still smiling like every Bond villain. That bit of acting gave the last Moore-Bond films a sense of seriousness. I think every real-life spy would act like that.

    Or what about George Lazenby's struggling when Blofeld's henchmen grab him violently to lock him up. It adds more to the weakness of the Bond-character. Craig at times is a bit too cold-blooded, too Batman cold-blooded, which at times make him slightly unrealistic.

    Let me be clear, I loved Silva, and he really did nothing wrong. That Tell-game scene is a highlight in the Bond franchise. It gave me the chills in the cinema, thinking "My God, the crazy Bond villains are back. And how!" STILL, I expected a bit more compassion and empathy from Bond's side.

    A line like this after Silva was so cold-bloodedly killed by Silva could easily make Bond slightly more realistic: "God....Silva. They've almost beaten my balls off a couple of years ago. But I didn't change into you. You...you're sicker than I am at times!"
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    A line like this after Silva was so cold-bloodedly killed by Silva could easily make Bond slightly more realistic: "God....Silva. They've almost beaten my balls off a couple of years ago. But I didn't change into you. You...you're sicker than I am at times!"

    LOL!

    Agree generally with the discussion here. There was 'something off' about his reaction. I can't quite put my finger on it, but it didn't quite work in this scene. That's why we're discussing it here. It did not emotionally resonate with some viewers and seemed odd.

    Rewatching that link of the showdown above reminded me of how chilling that entire duel was though. Superb work by Mendes. Silva is definitely a throwback to the great villains. Gives me memories of the Bond/Scaramanga showdown in TMWTGG.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Funnily enough it's one of my favourite scenes from the film. I feel
    It's very Fleming in tone. :)
  • DrGorner wrote: »
    Funnily enough it's one of my favourite scenes from the film. I feel
    It's very Fleming in tone. :)

    It's a magnificent scene. Together with the torture scene from CR, a true highlight of the series. I wouldn't be surprised that in 20 years from now these scenes get the same "evergreen status" as "No Mr Bond, I expect you to die!" from GF, Rosa Klebb having her kicks in FRWL and Xenia strangling the poor Canadian admiral from GE.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2014 Posts: 23,883
    Mendes really made the characterizations and scenes between every character work in SF. Every piece of dialogue and acting was spot on....almost theatrical (in terms of one on one exchanges) in excellence. There was no Talisa Soto moment in SF, although I have a small feeling that the Greek girl on the Island may have given us one if she had spoken....thank god she was just eye candy.

    That's part of it's charm & why it resonates so much with viewers, despite plot failings.
  • bondjames wrote: »
    Mendes really made the characterizations and scenes between every character work in SF. Every piece of dialogue and acting was spot on....almost theatrical (in terms of one on one exchanges) in excellence. There was no Talisa Soto moment in SF, although I have a small feeling that the Greek girl on the Island may have given us one if she had spoken....thank god she was just eye candy.

    That's part of it's charm & why it resonates so much with viewers, despite plot failings.
    bondjames wrote: »
    Mendes really made the characterizations and scenes between every character work in SF. Every piece of dialogue and acting was spot on....almost theatrical (in terms of one on one exchanges) in excellence. There was no Talisa Soto moment in SF, although I have a small feeling that the Greek girl on the Island may have given us one if she had spoken....thank god she was just eye candy.

    That's part of it's charm & why it resonates so much with viewers, despite plot failings.

    Fully agreed.
  • mcdonbbmcdonbb deep in the Heart of Texas
    Posts: 4,116
    Back to topic... Bond fans tend to gravitate to the period or film they first saw. I'm glad we have new fans to the fold.

    But that explains why some live the Dalton films ..some Moore ..and some DAD even. DAD was my ex wives first Bond film and she liked it ...but she alsoliked CR so just depends.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited November 2014 Posts: 17,789
    mcdonbb wrote: »
    Back to topic... Bond fans tend to gravitate to the period or film they first saw.
    My first Bond was DAF, so that imprinted for me. Moore's LALD was basically in the same pattern, if a just a bit more serious. I saw most other films in revivals, and thought Connery's first two too serious. Then came Tim and I thought the same, despite my non-love for some of Moore's lighter moments in MR. Brosnan was my pick for best Bond when his first two came out.
    Then I read the books.
    Now my favourites are Connery & Dalton. I tolerate the silly in DAF, and others. So no, at least in MY case, I don't tend to gravitate to the period or film I first saw. But that just may be me.
    :-??
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Matt_Helm wrote: »

    1.Gala - basically sexually assaulting her in the sea.
    I don't remember Moonraker very good, but I am quite sure he didn't screw her. So I am not quite sure what you mean.

    Brilliant.

    The guy who is berating others for not comprehending Fleming openly admits he doesnt know what hes talking about! For your passing information, to quote Bond's resignation letter, (dont worry Matt_Helm I dont expect you to get that OHMSS reference. It takes a reasonable knowledge of Fleming which you have just stated that you lack) Bond and Gala are swimming in the sea whereuopn Bond dives under the water and then launches himself from below on an unsuspecting Gala like Jaws (the shark, not the dentally challenged killer) and kisses her against her will. Thats sexual assault my pedigree chum. Well it is in the civilised world.
    Matt_Helm wrote: »
    2.Tiffany - shagging someone who was raped as a teenager.
    That's exactly my point. If I remember correctly he approaches her very slowly, eager not to hurt or shy her away. He even gets engaged with her! Do I need to say more?

    Simply put - Bond wont turn down a bit if it is offered but hes not a rapist. Severine offered it on a plate, Tiffany didnt. Had Tiffany been gagging for it when Bond first meets her in her lingerie and had said 'Please save me from those beastly Spang brothers - I'llk do anything Mr Franks' I dont think the literary Bond's strong ethics would have prevented him from slipping her one. The fact that they got engaged is utterly irrelevant. How do you know he wouldnt have wound up marrying Severine if she hadnt had her face blown off?
    Matt_Helm wrote: »
    3.Tania - shagging a girl who was being forced into it by her paymasters.
    He doesn't know that. To him she's a girl that has fallen in love with his "movie star looks" and he admits to Kerim loving her.

    I'll concede that at the time Bond doesnt know she is doing it under duress. However the paragaon of ethical virtue you seem to be claiming Fleming's Bond is doesnt seem to have much problem with being sent out to pimp for England and certainly doesnt suffer much in the way of a moral quandary when he's faced with Tania wearing stockings, choker and nothing else.
    Matt_Helm wrote: »
    4.Viv - shagging a girl who is probably suffering PTSD after nearly being raped.
    Pardon? The girl sing sinking in the man's arms,who has just saved her from a threat is a theme as old as storytelling itself.

    I appreciate from your statement above re MR that you arent too conversant with Fleming so allow me to outline precisely what happens in the story. Viv is just an ordinary girl who has nothing to do with the world of espionage or violence that Bond inhabits. She is attacked by two odious thugs and is on the verge of being raped when Bond walks in and kills the two bad guys. Then what does Mr Ethics do next? Thats right folks - bollocks to calling a social worker or a psychologist to discuss Viv's trauma - he just shags a vulnerable girl who is probably in a state of shock. Hard to imagine the first item in the police handbook on how to deal with victims of sexual assault being 'take the victim to a spare cabin and give her a good seeing to'.
    Matt_Helm wrote: »
    5.Tracy - shagging a girl who is suicidal.
    And of course he falls in love with her. He even marries her! Notice a trend?

    See Tiffany above. Yes he marries her. But he shags her a whole lot earlier. Had she died the day after they went to bed at the start of the book I presume you would have been appalled at Bond's ethics at once again getting a vulnerable woman to give up the goods? And had Severine survived long enough for Bond to marry her the fact he shagged an ex-child prostitute early doors wouldnt matter any more?

    For the record, although I agree with Gustav Graves and Dr Gorner that the scene is a good one and the duelling pistols/William Tell act with Severine is quite Flemingesque, I do feel the fate of Severine is rather clumsily handled. After setting her up very nicely in the casino scene I fear Mendes realised they had backed themselves in a bit of a corner with her as he really wanted M to be the focus of the story and Severine at that point became excess baggage for the plot. Hence they rather hastily get rid of her without really thinking it through properly.
    And indeed if Bond has the measure of the goons then why not do it before Severine is killed? Although of course maybe he has calculated that he needs Silva to have discharged his weapon already? In any event this is where SF goes of the tracks a bit with its logic - although lets be fair we are nowhere near to DAD levels of awfulness.

    As for the 'waste of good scotch line'? I can take it or leave it. And at the end of the day Bond has known Severine for what? Not even 24 hours? Just because he shagged her doesnt necessarily mean he should be mourning her does it?
    Matt_Helm wrote: »
    Also, about DAD ( and again I'm talking roughly about its first half). Well, what Bond is doing is just where I see the place of 00 agents. Infiltrating and eliminating a threat or annoyance for the UK. Many of the tasks we see Bond doing especially in the various PTSes are actually handled by the able guys of the SAS and SBS. Not so approaching the target on a "social" level, infiltrating and finally killing it.
    So I fail to see the "absolutely unfleming " argument here. Also compared to some other PTS (like TND for instance) I see DADs almost a low key.

    Care to back pedal any further?

    From an inital position of 'DAD is better than CR and SF' (not to mention GE and TND), you are now limiting yourself to the first half and mostly the PTS, no doubt to avoid risking charges of enjoying the invisble car, 'Yo Momma' and the parasurfing? Presumably by tomorrow you will be just down to the gunbarrel (which would actually make more sense than a lot of your other arguments - a GB with a CGI bullet is still better than no GB Mr Mendes. And one with the classic design rather than this god awful one we now seem to be stuck with I might add) in an attempt to extricate yourself from your increasingly ludicrous position.

    So now it appears you are basing your entire case that DAD is the third best film since 1995 on the fact that Bond sneaks about a bit like Andy McNab in the PTS? Feeble? Just a tad.

    I dont think anyone ever said that DAD was completely bereft of any good moments or any link to Fleming, and yes the PTS is not too bad (although not sure how Flemingian having Bond hanging ten is - but I'll let that go as it is the best stuntwork in the film) although I'm hardly shooting my wad over it either. An over choreographed Vic Armstrong chase and 'saved by the bell' is hardly Rick Sylvester going off the edge of the Asgard now is it? But if, as you seem to be trying to say, Fleming is your criteria for what makes Bond then how can you rate DAD above CR solely for this given that the second half of CR is practically the book as written?

    Your argument doesnt even stand up to the most basic logic.

    Bond 'infiltrating and eliminating a threat or annoyance for the UK' in the PTS of DAD should be lauded and means its completely Flemingesque apparently. But I guess that Fisher and Dryden cant be as big a threat or annoyance for the UK as Moon then because Bond does exactly the same thing in the CR PTS but apparently he doesnt do it in a sufficiently Flemingesque way for you to rate it.

    So if we subtract the 'infiltrating and eliminating a threat or annoyance for the UK' PTS from both films what are we left with? On one side a film that is the closest direct adaptation of a Fleming novel since OHMSS and on the other a pile of crap with only the most superficial links to Fleming.

    If you dont like Fleming and prefer CGI action fests with cardboard characters and horrendous dialogue then why not just admit it rather than attempt to contort the flimsiest arguments into justification. You'd gain a whole lot more respect (well not. But you take my point).
  • mcdonbbmcdonbb deep in the Heart of Texas
    Posts: 4,116
    The dueling scene was brilliant and well thought out.. the line was meant to through off Silva. That's the meaning of the scene. Btw don't you think Bond knew she was already dead before Silva shot her? He was biding time and faked his shot but the line was unexpected and threw off Silva... The whole previous scene was a war of words and throwing off the other.... remember? No its a very Flemingish and well thought out scene in my opinion.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    mcdonbb wrote: »
    No its a very Flemingish and well thought out scene in my opinion.
    It was trying to outdo both Tilly & jill, and it succeeded. But it left a sour taste in my mouth. If Severine *HAD* to be the sacrificial lamb, it could have been handled better IMO. But that's all it is- my opinion.
  • mcdonbbmcdonbb deep in the Heart of Texas
    Posts: 4,116
    I respect and see that @chrisisall... I like DC's shock moments.
  • Posts: 7,507
    mcdonbb wrote: »
    The dueling scene was brilliant and well thought out.. the line was meant to through off Silva. That's the meaning of the scene. Btw don't you think Bond knew she was already dead before Silva shot her? He was biding time and faked his shot but the line was unexpected and threw off Silva... The whole previous scene was a war of words and throwing off the other.... remember? No its a very Flemingish and well thought out scene in my opinion.

    Thank you! In fact I can't believe why that line gets so much attention. There is practically nthing more Flemingesque than playing brave in face of the enimy. It happens basically in every book.
  • Matt_Helm wrote: »

    1.Gala - basically sexually assaulting her in the sea.
    I don't remember Moonraker very good, but I am quite sure he didn't screw her. So I am not quite sure what you mean.

    Brilliant.

    The guy who is berating others for not comprehending Fleming openly admits he doesnt know what hes talking about! For your passing information, to quote Bond's resignation letter, (dont worry Matt_Helm I dont expect you to get that OHMSS reference. It takes a reasonable knowledge of Fleming which you have just stated that you lack) Bond and Gala are swimming in the sea whereuopn Bond dives under the water and then launches himself from below on an unsuspecting Gala like Jaws (the shark, not the dentally challenged killer) and kisses her against her will. Thats sexual assault my pedigree chum. Well it is in the civilised world.
    Matt_Helm wrote: »
    2.Tiffany - shagging someone who was raped as a teenager.
    That's exactly my point. If I remember correctly he approaches her very slowly, eager not to hurt or shy her away. He even gets engaged with her! Do I need to say more?

    Simply put - Bond wont turn down a bit if it is offered but hes not a rapist. Severine offered it on a plate, Tiffany didnt. Had Tiffany been gagging for it when Bond first meets her in her lingerie and had said 'Please save me from those beastly Spang brothers - I'llk do anything Mr Franks' I dont think the literary Bond's strong ethics would have prevented him from slipping her one. The fact that they got engaged is utterly irrelevant. How do you know he wouldnt have wound up marrying Severine if she hadnt had her face blown off?
    Matt_Helm wrote: »
    3.Tania - shagging a girl who was being forced into it by her paymasters.
    He doesn't know that. To him she's a girl that has fallen in love with his "movie star looks" and he admits to Kerim loving her.

    I'll concede that at the time Bond doesnt know she is doing it under duress. However the paragaon of ethical virtue you seem to be claiming Fleming's Bond is doesnt seem to have much problem with being sent out to pimp for England and certainly doesnt suffer much in the way of a moral quandary when he's faced with Tania wearing stockings, choker and nothing else.
    Matt_Helm wrote: »
    4.Viv - shagging a girl who is probably suffering PTSD after nearly being raped.
    Pardon? The girl sing sinking in the man's arms,who has just saved her from a threat is a theme as old as storytelling itself.

    I appreciate from your statement above re MR that you arent too conversant with Fleming so allow me to outline precisely what happens in the story. Viv is just an ordinary girl who has nothing to do with the world of espionage or violence that Bond inhabits. She is attacked by two odious thugs and is on the verge of being raped when Bond walks in and kills the two bad guys. Then what does Mr Ethics do next? Thats right folks - bollocks to calling a social worker or a psychologist to discuss Viv's trauma - he just shags a vulnerable girl who is probably in a state of shock. Hard to imagine the first item in the police handbook on how to deal with victims of sexual assault being 'take the victim to a spare cabin and give her a good seeing to'.
    Matt_Helm wrote: »
    5.Tracy - shagging a girl who is suicidal.
    And of course he falls in love with her. He even marries her! Notice a trend?

    See Tiffany above. Yes he marries her. But he shags her a whole lot earlier. Had she died the day after they went to bed at the start of the book I presume you would have been appalled at Bond's ethics at once again getting a vulnerable woman to give up the goods? And had Severine survived long enough for Bond to marry her the fact he shagged an ex-child prostitute early doors wouldnt matter any more?

    For the record, although I agree with Gustav Graves and Dr Gorner that the scene is a good one and the duelling pistols/William Tell act with Severine is quite Flemingesque, I do feel the fate of Severine is rather clumsily handled. After setting her up very nicely in the casino scene I fear Mendes realised they had backed themselves in a bit of a corner with her as he really wanted M to be the focus of the story and Severine at that point became excess baggage for the plot. Hence they rather hastily get rid of her without really thinking it through properly.
    And indeed if Bond has the measure of the goons then why not do it before Severine is killed? Although of course maybe he has calculated that he needs Silva to have discharged his weapon already? In any event this is where SF goes of the tracks a bit with its logic - although lets be fair we are nowhere near to DAD levels of awfulness.

    As for the 'waste of good scotch line'? I can take it or leave it. And at the end of the day Bond has known Severine for what? Not even 24 hours? Just because he shagged her doesnt necessarily mean he should be mourning her does it?
    Matt_Helm wrote: »
    Also, about DAD ( and again I'm talking roughly about its first half). Well, what Bond is doing is just where I see the place of 00 agents. Infiltrating and eliminating a threat or annoyance for the UK. Many of the tasks we see Bond doing especially in the various PTSes are actually handled by the able guys of the SAS and SBS. Not so approaching the target on a "social" level, infiltrating and finally killing it.
    So I fail to see the "absolutely unfleming " argument here. Also compared to some other PTS (like TND for instance) I see DADs almost a low key.

    Care to back pedal any further?

    From an inital position of 'DAD is better than CR and SF' (not to mention GE and TND), you are now limiting yourself to the first half and mostly the PTS, no doubt to avoid risking charges of enjoying the invisble car, 'Yo Momma' and the parasurfing? Presumably by tomorrow you will be just down to the gunbarrel (which would actually make more sense than a lot of your other arguments - a GB with a CGI bullet is still better than no GB Mr Mendes. And one with the classic design rather than this god awful one we now seem to be stuck with I might add) in an attempt to extricate yourself from your increasingly ludicrous position.

    So now it appears you are basing your entire case that DAD is the third best film since 1995 on the fact that Bond sneaks about a bit like Andy McNab in the PTS? Feeble? Just a tad.

    I dont think anyone ever said that DAD was completely bereft of any good moments or any link to Fleming, and yes the PTS is not too bad (although not sure how Flemingian having Bond hanging ten is - but I'll let that go as it is the best stuntwork in the film) although I'm hardly shooting my wad over it either. An over choreographed Vic Armstrong chase and 'saved by the bell' is hardly Rick Sylvester going off the edge of the Asgard now is it? But if, as you seem to be trying to say, Fleming is your criteria for what makes Bond then how can you rate DAD above CR solely for this given that the second half of CR is practically the book as written?

    Your argument doesnt even stand up to the most basic logic.

    Bond 'infiltrating and eliminating a threat or annoyance for the UK' in the PTS of DAD should be lauded and means its completely Flemingesque apparently. But I guess that Fisher and Dryden cant be as big a threat or annoyance for the UK as Moon then because Bond does exactly the same thing in the CR PTS but apparently he doesnt do it in a sufficiently Flemingesque way for you to rate it.

    So if we subtract the 'infiltrating and eliminating a threat or annoyance for the UK' PTS from both films what are we left with? On one side a film that is the closest direct adaptation of a Fleming novel since OHMSS and on the other a pile of crap with only the most superficial links to Fleming.

    If you dont like Fleming and prefer CGI action fests with cardboard characters and horrendous dialogue then why not just admit it rather than attempt to contort the flimsiest arguments into justification. You'd gain a whole lot more respect (well not. But you take my point).

    DAD first.
    From the very first moment I posted my ranking there had been some short reasoning right next to it and that's how it read:
    "strictly for its first half. Up until to Bond gets introduced to the "Vanish" this
    Is quite sound 007 style to me"

    I am guessing you didn't notice it because you were to busy ecstatically clapping your shoulders congratulating yourself for your superior intellect and taste ( somehow reminds me of the English national football team, which travels to each and every tournament as a self declared favourite just to become humiliated shortly afterwards by just whatever team they meet first on the pitch.)
    About Fisher and Dryden. If you had not only thought about it within your obviously narrow means,but applied rationale as well you might come to the conclusion, that probably MI6 would have liked to interrogate at least Dryden,just to get a picture of how much damage he has done.
    Btw, if you had used just a bit of intellect while reading CR you might have wondered if Flemings criteria to become a 00 weren't a bit arbitrary. You get an elite agent just by killing two people in the line of duty. A bit chicken and egg,don't you think? You have to kill to become promoted to kill. Sounds like a job advertisement in search for a psychopath, especially if you take into consideration CR's PTS. M sends Bond just to investigate, then he snuffs his targets ( in case of Dryden without ANY need ) and gets promoted for it. Really?

    About me not remembering much of MR. Well apart from CR,LALD and FRWL (which I reread in the "finally someone is doing Flemings genius justice" craze after CR came out )I have read my Bond novels between age 10 and 12 and apart from the just mentioned exceptions never got back .Why you ask?
    Well, because Fleming is a quite mediocre thriller writer, much more aching to the likes of Sax Romer and John Buchan ( which is exactly why HIS Bond would have shown deepest disgust after the killing of Severigne).He excels when it comes to travelogue (there is 2nd to none),but his story development and especially the way he lets get Bond go after his business are quite ridiculous. Just rereading the three novels I just mentioned confirmed to me how much of a moron bond is in the novels). But as long as it might be a ago, even then I got the thrust of Flemings work, which is so much more white knight than blunt instrument. Stone cold killer? You must be kidding me. He is much closer to a marshmallow then a stone. If you want to see guys handle their job professionally,clever and tough minded I would recommend to you the works of Donald Hamilton and Len Deighton (also I suspect you might be better off with the works of Vince Flynn and Brad Thor)

    I won't go into your other arguments, which strike me as even more clutching for straws than those I just dwelled upon, but let me recommend you again to improve greatly on your comprehension level. Just reading alone doesn't make the cut. Any second grader can read words but this doesn't mean he understands the sentence.
    Oh yes,just one more thing. Bond had a problem with pimping for England. He thinks about it all the time while flying to Istanbul.
  • Posts: 11,425
    @Matt_Helm, as your posting suggests, isn't there an inherent absurdity in the Bond character? It's something that the later Connery films and Moore picked up on. Of course you need to play it straight sometimes but you also need to bring out the underlying craziness of the plots and characters sometimes. I guess that's what they thought they were doing with DAD, but it all just went badly wrong.

    It actually takes skill to pull off the camp crazy ness. A reason I have a growing appreciation for the Hamilton era films.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    Getafix wrote: »
    I guess that's what they thought they were doing with DAD, but it all just went badly wrong.
    My God, that's THE nicest thing you've ever said about that film! ;)
  • Posts: 11,425
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    I guess that's what they thought they were doing with DAD, but it all just went badly wrong.
    My God, that's THE nicest thing you've ever said about that film! ;)

    Must be going soft in my old age!
  • Getafix wrote: »
    @Matt_Helm, as your posting suggests, isn't there an inherent absurdity in the Bond character?
    It actually takes skill to pull off the camp crazy ness. A reason I have a growing appreciation for the Hamilton era films.

    My point exactly. That's why we (as Bond fans) owe so much debt to Maibaum (for the screen adaptions) and Young (for insisting on real class).They realised from the start how to work with this absurdity. That's why we got so much more womanising and humour in the films ( = willing and barely dressed beauties, who he just got to know, waiting for him at his place, "sergeant, keep an eye on him" about the dead chauffeur and and). They also were wise enough to counterweight this approach every then and when (Dents killing being a prime example. This scene doesn't even exist in the novel.)
    This blend,coupled with Barry's one of a kind sound made the Bonds such an inimitable success (and the Lord knows many have tried).
    If they merely had taken the novels and adapted them en detail,completely true to Fleming ( something so many naive souls have called for) the films and especially the novels would long have been forgotten.
  • 1-Casino Royale
    2-Goldeneye
    3-Skyfall




    4-Quantum of Solace
    5-Tomorrow Never Dies
    6-The world is not enough






















    7-Die Another Day
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Matt_Helm wrote: »
    Matt_Helm wrote: »

    1.Gala - basically sexually assaulting her in the sea.
    I don't remember Moonraker very good, but I am quite sure he didn't screw her. So I am not quite sure what you mean.

    Brilliant.

    The guy who is berating others for not comprehending Fleming openly admits he doesnt know what hes talking about! For your passing information, to quote Bond's resignation letter, (dont worry Matt_Helm I dont expect you to get that OHMSS reference. It takes a reasonable knowledge of Fleming which you have just stated that you lack) Bond and Gala are swimming in the sea whereuopn Bond dives under the water and then launches himself from below on an unsuspecting Gala like Jaws (the shark, not the dentally challenged killer) and kisses her against her will. Thats sexual assault my pedigree chum. Well it is in the civilised world.
    Matt_Helm wrote: »
    2.Tiffany - shagging someone who was raped as a teenager.
    That's exactly my point. If I remember correctly he approaches her very slowly, eager not to hurt or shy her away. He even gets engaged with her! Do I need to say more?

    Simply put - Bond wont turn down a bit if it is offered but hes not a rapist. Severine offered it on a plate, Tiffany didnt. Had Tiffany been gagging for it when Bond first meets her in her lingerie and had said 'Please save me from those beastly Spang brothers - I'llk do anything Mr Franks' I dont think the literary Bond's strong ethics would have prevented him from slipping her one. The fact that they got engaged is utterly irrelevant. How do you know he wouldnt have wound up marrying Severine if she hadnt had her face blown off?
    Matt_Helm wrote: »
    3.Tania - shagging a girl who was being forced into it by her paymasters.
    He doesn't know that. To him she's a girl that has fallen in love with his "movie star looks" and he admits to Kerim loving her.

    I'll concede that at the time Bond doesnt know she is doing it under duress. However the paragaon of ethical virtue you seem to be claiming Fleming's Bond is doesnt seem to have much problem with being sent out to pimp for England and certainly doesnt suffer much in the way of a moral quandary when he's faced with Tania wearing stockings, choker and nothing else.
    Matt_Helm wrote: »
    4.Viv - shagging a girl who is probably suffering PTSD after nearly being raped.
    Pardon? The girl sing sinking in the man's arms,who has just saved her from a threat is a theme as old as storytelling itself.

    I appreciate from your statement above re MR that you arent too conversant with Fleming so allow me to outline precisely what happens in the story. Viv is just an ordinary girl who has nothing to do with the world of espionage or violence that Bond inhabits. She is attacked by two odious thugs and is on the verge of being raped when Bond walks in and kills the two bad guys. Then what does Mr Ethics do next? Thats right folks - bollocks to calling a social worker or a psychologist to discuss Viv's trauma - he just shags a vulnerable girl who is probably in a state of shock. Hard to imagine the first item in the police handbook on how to deal with victims of sexual assault being 'take the victim to a spare cabin and give her a good seeing to'.
    Matt_Helm wrote: »
    5.Tracy - shagging a girl who is suicidal.
    And of course he falls in love with her. He even marries her! Notice a trend?

    See Tiffany above. Yes he marries her. But he shags her a whole lot earlier. Had she died the day after they went to bed at the start of the book I presume you would have been appalled at Bond's ethics at once again getting a vulnerable woman to give up the goods? And had Severine survived long enough for Bond to marry her the fact he shagged an ex-child prostitute early doors wouldnt matter any more?

    For the record, although I agree with Gustav Graves and Dr Gorner that the scene is a good one and the duelling pistols/William Tell act with Severine is quite Flemingesque, I do feel the fate of Severine is rather clumsily handled. After setting her up very nicely in the casino scene I fear Mendes realised they had backed themselves in a bit of a corner with her as he really wanted M to be the focus of the story and Severine at that point became excess baggage for the plot. Hence they rather hastily get rid of her without really thinking it through properly.
    And indeed if Bond has the measure of the goons then why not do it before Severine is killed? Although of course maybe he has calculated that he needs Silva to have discharged his weapon already? In any event this is where SF goes of the tracks a bit with its logic - although lets be fair we are nowhere near to DAD levels of awfulness.

    As for the 'waste of good scotch line'? I can take it or leave it. And at the end of the day Bond has known Severine for what? Not even 24 hours? Just because he shagged her doesnt necessarily mean he should be mourning her does it?
    Matt_Helm wrote: »
    Also, about DAD ( and again I'm talking roughly about its first half). Well, what Bond is doing is just where I see the place of 00 agents. Infiltrating and eliminating a threat or annoyance for the UK. Many of the tasks we see Bond doing especially in the various PTSes are actually handled by the able guys of the SAS and SBS. Not so approaching the target on a "social" level, infiltrating and finally killing it.
    So I fail to see the "absolutely unfleming " argument here. Also compared to some other PTS (like TND for instance) I see DADs almost a low key.

    Care to back pedal any further?

    From an inital position of 'DAD is better than CR and SF' (not to mention GE and TND), you are now limiting yourself to the first half and mostly the PTS, no doubt to avoid risking charges of enjoying the invisble car, 'Yo Momma' and the parasurfing? Presumably by tomorrow you will be just down to the gunbarrel (which would actually make more sense than a lot of your other arguments - a GB with a CGI bullet is still better than no GB Mr Mendes. And one with the classic design rather than this god awful one we now seem to be stuck with I might add) in an attempt to extricate yourself from your increasingly ludicrous position.

    So now it appears you are basing your entire case that DAD is the third best film since 1995 on the fact that Bond sneaks about a bit like Andy McNab in the PTS? Feeble? Just a tad.

    I dont think anyone ever said that DAD was completely bereft of any good moments or any link to Fleming, and yes the PTS is not too bad (although not sure how Flemingian having Bond hanging ten is - but I'll let that go as it is the best stuntwork in the film) although I'm hardly shooting my wad over it either. An over choreographed Vic Armstrong chase and 'saved by the bell' is hardly Rick Sylvester going off the edge of the Asgard now is it? But if, as you seem to be trying to say, Fleming is your criteria for what makes Bond then how can you rate DAD above CR solely for this given that the second half of CR is practically the book as written?

    Your argument doesnt even stand up to the most basic logic.

    Bond 'infiltrating and eliminating a threat or annoyance for the UK' in the PTS of DAD should be lauded and means its completely Flemingesque apparently. But I guess that Fisher and Dryden cant be as big a threat or annoyance for the UK as Moon then because Bond does exactly the same thing in the CR PTS but apparently he doesnt do it in a sufficiently Flemingesque way for you to rate it.

    So if we subtract the 'infiltrating and eliminating a threat or annoyance for the UK' PTS from both films what are we left with? On one side a film that is the closest direct adaptation of a Fleming novel since OHMSS and on the other a pile of crap with only the most superficial links to Fleming.

    If you dont like Fleming and prefer CGI action fests with cardboard characters and horrendous dialogue then why not just admit it rather than attempt to contort the flimsiest arguments into justification. You'd gain a whole lot more respect (well not. But you take my point).

    DAD first.
    From the very first moment I posted my ranking there had been some short reasoning right next to it and that's how it read:
    "strictly for its first half. Up until to Bond gets introduced to the "Vanish" this
    Is quite sound 007 style to me"

    I am guessing you didn't notice it because you were to busy ecstatically clapping your shoulders congratulating yourself for your superior intellect and taste ( somehow reminds me of the English national football team, which travels to each and every tournament as a self declared favourite just to become humiliated shortly afterwards by just whatever team they meet first on the pitch.)
    About Fisher and Dryden. If you had not only thought about it within your obviously narrow means,but applied rationale as well you might come to the conclusion, that probably MI6 would have liked to interrogate at least Dryden,just to get a picture of how much damage he has done.
    Btw, if you had used just a bit of intellect while reading CR you might have wondered if Flemings criteria to become a 00 weren't a bit arbitrary. You get an elite agent just by killing two people in the line of duty. A bit chicken and egg,don't you think? You have to kill to become promoted to kill. Sounds like a job advertisement in search for a psychopath, especially if you take into consideration CR's PTS. M sends Bond just to investigate, then he snuffs his targets ( in case of Dryden without ANY need ) and gets promoted for it. Really?

    About me not remembering much of MR. Well apart from CR,LALD and FRWL (which I reread in the "finally someone is doing Flemings genius justice" craze after CR came out )I have read my Bond novels between age 10 and 12 and apart from the just mentioned exceptions never got back .Why you ask?
    Well, because Fleming is a quite mediocre thriller writer, much more aching to the likes of Sax Romer and John Buchan ( which is exactly why HIS Bond would have shown deepest disgust after the killing of Severigne).He excels when it comes to travelogue (there is 2nd to none),but his story development and especially the way he lets get Bond go after his business are quite ridiculous. Just rereading the three novels I just mentioned confirmed to me how much of a moron bond is in the novels). But as long as it might be a ago, even then I got the thrust of Flemings work, which is so much more white knight than blunt instrument. Stone cold killer? You must be kidding me. He is much closer to a marshmallow then a stone. If you want to see guys handle their job professionally,clever and tough minded I would recommend to you the works of Donald Hamilton and Len Deighton (also I suspect you might be better off with the works of Vince Flynn and Brad Thor)

    I won't go into your other arguments, which strike me as even more clutching for straws than those I just dwelled upon, but let me recommend you again to improve greatly on your comprehension level. Just reading alone doesn't make the cut. Any second grader can read words but this doesn't mean he understands the sentence.
    Oh yes,just one more thing. Bond had a problem with pimping for England. He thinks about it all the time while flying to Istanbul.

    The last two nights I have been at work so didnt mind trying to wrestle with your inanity but I'm really not going to do it on my own time - especially as you seem to be spiralling ever further off the sanity piste so I'll be brief tonight as you are clearly beyond reason.

    Even with my 'narrow means' I can discern that I am beaten by a superior intellect but I'd be grateful if you could furnish me with how you arrive at the conclusion that 'probably MI6 would have liked to interrogate at least Dryden' or 'M sends Bond just to investigate, then he snuffs his targets'? Where does it mention this in the script?

    Dryden himself admits that if M was sure he was dodgy she would've sent a double o to take him out. So M has no interest in interrogating Dryden and Bond is just obeying orders in putting him down. But obviously your higher consciousness can read things not in the script so that they can support your tenuous theories.

    As for the rest of your incoherent drivel that is like reading one of Balje's posts after he has spent all day in an Amsterdam coffeeshop; I really cant be bothered to go through it pointing out the inconsistencies and chasms in logic.

    I will just wonder, given your clear contempt above for Fleming's writing and the universe he created, why you are even here?

    Anyway I am quite happy to continue existing in my stunted state of retardation if joining you on your cloud of enlightenment and mental superiority means I rate DAD above CR. That fact will be on your headstone, not mine old son.

    I'd still be interested (well amused) to hear how you can justify DAD being a better film than CR but as I've asked you to do this already and you've just flatly ignored me I dont hold out any hope.

    I'm a little surprised that you cant recall more about MR though? You read it when you were 12? Surely your powers of recollection can extend to remembering a book you read less than a year ago? Maybe you should get yourself checked for Alzheimers? It might explain a fair bit.
  • edited November 2014 Posts: 7,507
    As for the rest of your incoherent drivel that is like reading one of Balje's posts after he has spent all day in an Amsterdam coffeeshop; I really cant be bothered to go through it pointing out the inconsistencies and chasms in logic.

    Is it necessary to insult other members that have nothing to do with this tedius, rather pointless quarrel of yours? :-?? And was that analogy so fundamental to your point that you couldn't leave it out in a post that was supposed to be 'brief'? 'Superior intellect'... Yeah...
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    edited November 2014 Posts: 13,978
    Yes, thank you @jobo. Please leave the personal insults out of this debate. If this thread continues on it's present course, warnings will be handed out.
    mN2uVz.jpg

    Thanks for the graph @Gustav_Graves. So i'm a remarkable poster? It's like being in the Groovy Gang, i'm going to wear that like a badge of honour. :D
  • Posts: 4,622
    So i'm a remarkable poster? It's like being in the Groovy Gang, i'm going to wear that like a badge of honour. :D
    me too. The herd is so boring!

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