"GE" vs "TND": Why is the first generally considered better than the second?

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  • Posts: 1,146


    Essentially all we're left with is your personal dislike for Roger Moore and Octopussy. A point of view I find more sad than anything else. If you can't appreciate Sir Rog in arguably one of his best performances then I just feel sorry for you TBH .[/quote]

    No, all we are left with are a few posters on this thread about GE and TND that opine differently about OP and Roger Moore in general.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited November 2014 Posts: 17,804
    Again, and to stay on topic-
    To answer the original question, GE was somewhat original, given the givens. It had it both ways: play it safe with a known actor, tick the right boxes, but at the same time give us an unexpected bad guy, and an OTT femme fatale not seen before. Tied into the whole post Cold-War thing and you have the winner.
    TND was a supremely well made formula-chaser with a little twist here & there. I happen to prefer TND by a little bit, but they were both hugely entertaining films. To quote Malcolm McDowall from Blue Thunder, "anyone who tells you different is a damn liar." ;)
  • Posts: 7,507
    What on earth happened to this thread? :))
  • Posts: 1,146
    I'll take Goldeneye over TND. Goldeneye is sleekly and stylishly shot, and more of a complete story, whereas TND falls completely apart after the protagonists are presented to Carver.

    Some terrible lines in that sequence like 'he was like a father to me,' are just cringe-worthy and conversely, GE ends with perhaps one of the most intense showdowns of the series, which is just so impressively constructed and shot. Easily and clearly the BRoz's best moment as Bond.
  • Posts: 1,146
    It's not his fault the next three directors were so mediocre.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    I'll take Goldeneye over TND. Goldeneye is sleekly and stylishly shot,
    I like those jazzy adjectives. So easy & fun to use... they don't actually convey much in a detailed discussion though.
    and more of a complete story,
    Umm... is that because TND is missing an ending? More vagueness.
    whereas TND falls completely apart after the protagonists are presented to Carver.
    Ahh, the 'fall apart' thing again. Is your derogatory phrase bank really so limited?
    Some terrible lines in that sequence like 'he was like a father to me,' are just cringe-worthy
    Terrible to YOU maybe...see? That's opinion. YOUR opinion. But feel free to keep stating your opinions as facts.
    and conversely, GE ends with perhaps one of the most intense showdowns of the series, which is just so impressively constructed and shot.
    "Choreographed' would be a better word; sets get constructed.
    Easily and clearly the BRoz's best moment as Bond.
    If you'd said "Easily his best moment" or "Clearly his best moment" it would have been fine, but by mixing easily with clearly you show an anxiousness to be correct rather than a relaxed assuredness that you are (or perhaps it's simply a pedestrian use of the language?).

  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    I prefer TND over GE, by a slight margin. I think GE is more renown as it was the first Bond in 6 years and was a definitely a huge hit. It was fun, had beautiful locations, a gorgeous Bond girl who could really act, an over the top and memorable villainous, and yes basically "ticked the boxes" of what the public in general had seemed to enjoy about Bond films over the entire course of the series to that point. It changed the tone after Dalton's wonderfully acted yet dark LTK, which was a much heavier film. So the producers seemed to want to "give the public what they wanted" with GE. I do think it is a good Bond film and is pretty consistent throughout. It does not feel like it tries to hard to be a somber film or an extremely light or amusing one. It does not flip flop in tone. It had a truly great into to Judi's M, and much of it was, in my opinion (as this all is), well written.

    I love TND more because of Brosnan's more fully fleshed out, somber at times, stronger Bond. I love his Bond in this one. I enjoy his partnership and chemistry with Wai Lin very much. He has some great, more serious scenes (all of those Paris, leading up thru her death and his confrontation with Dr. Kaufman) and other lighter, nice moments. I cherish Pierce's Bond with Q; all of their scenes glow with a genuine fondness. They really suit each other. I like the motorcycle chase a lot. I watch TND more often than most Bond films. If the general public (which is this main topic) prefer GE, I think it is because of it being the first after so long, its good production quality (it did not look cheap), and very fine actors (Pierce, Isabella, Robbie, Famke).
  • Posts: 1,146
    A simple question: If TND is a better picture, why was the director not brought back to shoot CR?

    And action sequences are constructed just as much as a set is.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    edited November 2014 Posts: 12,480
    Directors come and go for a variety of reasons. I am thrilled Campbell came back for CR. I did read, long time ago, that Judi was not entirely happy with Spottiswoode. But that would be just one of several factors determining whether a director returns or not. The days of automatically assuming a Bond director will do a few in a row are past, in general. At least it cannot be so easily assumed any more.

    I know I have read a little about Judi and Roger not having a really great time together on TND in a few sources, and I don't want to blow this up out of proportion. She is, by all account, professional and I hardly ever her hear her say anything negative about anyone. But here is just one small bit, taken from a 2011 article. Judi talks about aging, how she has changed, and how she started out as M. The whole article is interesting enough; here it is: article.http://www.express.co.uk/expressyourself/259189/Dame-Judi-Dench-I-ve-turned-into-Mrs-Angry . It says in one part:

    Her role as secret service boss M in the 1995 film Goldeneye, Pierce Brosnan’s debut as 007, sparked a new-found career. But it still did not stop her giving director Roger Spottiswoode a piece of her mind in her second Bond film, Tomorrow Never Dies.

    The director regularly sent her script changes late at night, which she had to learn in the car on the way to the film set. And during a process called “looping” (rerecording dialogue) she got even. She told him: “It was very off-putting indeed to have to learn the script and then, at a quarter to 10 the night before filming, to get a loud knocking on the door by the courier with a new script. That’s not fair.”

    When Spottiswoode tried to apologise with an offer of a car to take her to the next destination, she retorted: “No, I’d rather walk.”

    She couldn’t even bring herself to shake hands with him. She says: “I can be really difficult when I want to be.”


    Also, I really liked discovering this, in the same article, about during filming of Goldeneye: (the author of this article is Garth Pearce;unknown to me):

    I was there on the day in February 1995 when Dame Judi Dench made her Bond debut as M on the film GoldenEye. She was a bag of nerves.

    She arrived at Leavesden studios, near Watford, clutching the hand of her actress daughter Finty, then 22. Dame Judi sat in costume and make-up, visibly shaking, as if waiting to have a major operation.

    I pointed out that she had spent three hours at a time on stage playing every major female role Shakespeare had written.

    “This is completely different,” she said. “I am never really happy in front of a film camera. If I get the performance wrong it can’t be put right the next night.”

    The scene involved M greeting Bond in her office and accusing him of being a “misogynist”. She was supposed to light and hold a cigarette and use metal tongs to put “ice” into glasses to make drinks for them.

    But her hands were shaking so much that she had difficulty in doing both. Director Martin Campbell took out the smoking and allowed her to turn away from the camera before putting the ice in the glasses.

    She fluffed one of her lines. Pierce Brosnan, who had told me how excited he was just to be in a scene with her, fluffed one of his lines in the next take.

    Whether deliberate or not, it relaxed proceedings. “OK,” said Campbell, “that makes it one-one. Let’s go again.”

    The scene on film was memorable and Dame Judi Dench hasn't looked back in Bond since.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited November 2014 Posts: 17,804
    And action sequences are constructed just as much as a set is.
    It's just not the optimum word to use in that sentence (as it was constructed).

    ;)
  • Posts: 1,146
    ..and what has Spottiswoode done since TND that's significant as Casino Royale?
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited November 2014 Posts: 17,804
    ..and what has Spottiswoode done since TND that's [as] significant as Casino Royale?
    If your definition of 'significant' includes works of artistic value, see "The Children of Huang Shi". If it is merely a measure of popularity in favour of quality, then the answer is 'not much'.
  • Posts: 1,146
    Never heard of it.

    Certainly for the purposes of this discussion I'd consider Casino Royale as a little more closer to the topic, and thereby more significant.

    SImply put, Campbell is a better Bond director. His film was more critically received than Spot's, and therefore he was given the reboot to do, which turned out to be even BETTER received.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited November 2014 Posts: 17,804
    Certainly for the purposes of this discussion I'd consider Casino Royale as a little more closer to the topic, and thereby more significant.
    You failed then to define your acceptable parameters concerning significantness. (not a real word)
  • Posts: 1,146
    It's completely significant that Campbell was asked back to shoot the subsequently highly-praised reboot, and that Spottiswoode not only was not asked but also made less than high profile pictures afterward.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited November 2014 Posts: 17,804
    It's completely significant that Campbell was asked back to shoot the subsequently highly-praised reboot, and that Spottiswoode not only was not asked but also made less than high profile pictures afterward.
    Y'know, I was going to try, but this last post of yours is just so...
    (sorry for this in advance- I just can't help myself any more)
    doubleohdad, you're an [apparently unenlightened fellow].
    Now, instead of taking offence, try thinking just a tiny bit more than you spew. A little bit each day. Pretty soon you'll be able to have REAL conversations wherein it's not just YOU explaining things to people, but an actual give and take.
  • Posts: 1,146
    You can call me names, but that does not change the truth that Spotts has not had the career that Campbell has, and ultimately that has to point to the quality of the films made by Campbell.

    Know you like TND more and I understand that, but the facts are what they are.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    You can call me names,
    It takes one to know one- I've been known to be an idiot occasionally; it's been said.
    but that does not change the truth that Spotts has not had the career that Campbell has
    By your own questionable logic, Campbell is now a loser. What has he done since CR? Green Lantern? This surely means his Bond films really weren't that good.
    Right?

    :))
  • Posts: 1,146
    Wait, the failure of one picture affects another?
    French Connection 2 makes French Connection bad?
    Exorcist 2 makes Exorcist horrid?

    Certainly GL is a mediocre excursion, but that does not diminish his other works.
    Spottiswoode, meanwhile is nowhere near big-boy action films. If TND was as good as GE and CR, then that would be the case.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    Wait, the failure of one picture affects another?
    You said it, not me.
    "Spottiswoode not only was not asked but also made less than high profile pictures afterward."
    Campbell was not asked back after CR, and has made less than high profile pictures afterwards.
  • Posts: 4,619
    Yikes! Why is this thread this long? Comparing GoldenEye to Tomorrow Never Dies is like comparing Citizen Kane to Plan 9 from Outer Space.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited November 2014 Posts: 17,804
    Another unenlightened fellow?
    More like comparing two entertaining Bond movies.
  • Yikes! Why is this thread this long? Comparing GoldenEye to Tomorrow Never Dies is like comparing Citizen Kane to Plan 9 from Outer Space.
    Yikes! Why is this thread this long? Comparing GoldenEye to Tomorrow Never Dies is like comparing Citizen Kane to Plan 9 from Outer Space.

    Come on, GE isn't THAT bad.
  • Posts: 1,146
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Wait, the failure of one picture affects another?
    You said it, not me.
    "Spottiswoode not only was not asked but also made less than high profile pictures afterward."
    Campbell was not asked back after CR, and has made less than high profile pictures afterwards.


    Yes, Spottiswoode no longer makes big budget action films like Martin Campbell does, that's correct!
  • edited November 2014 Posts: 4,619
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Another unenlightened fellow?

    No, just someone who knows a thing or two about cinema and can see the bigger picture. GE is an objectively better movie than TND. I don't care which movie is more "Bondian"...
  • Posts: 1,146
    Yikes! Why is this thread this long? Comparing GoldenEye to Tomorrow Never Dies is like comparing Citizen Kane to Plan 9 from Outer Space.

    I agree with you, but everyone has their own opinion.

    There's a style by which GE and CR were shot, none of that is present in TND, a picture without a very good third act. Contrasting that are the two films that Campbell made, which were not only better received than TND critically shot so much more stylishly.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    No, just someone who knows a thing or two about cinema
    Well, neither of those two things seem to be about Bond movies.
    GE is an objectively better movie than TND. I don't care which movie is more "Bondian"...
    First, to use the word objectively is too subjective. I doubt that you'd want to go toe-to-toe with me point-for-point on why the movies are entirely comparable.
    Second, who said anything about either being more 'Bondian'?

  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    This thread is in good need of a locking.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    Murdock wrote: »
    This thread is in good need of a locking.
    Unfortunately I must concur.
  • Posts: 1,146
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Another unenlightened fellow?

    No, just someone who knows a thing or two about cinema and can see the bigger picture. GE is an objectively better movie than TND. I don't care which movie is more "Bondian"...

    I agree with you completely, man. Not even close. GE is is clearly the better picture.
This discussion has been closed.