"GE" vs "TND": Why is the first generally considered better than the second?

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  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited November 2014 Posts: 15,718
    @doubleohdad as an action film, I agree, the original Die Hard blows most Bond films of the water, same as The Raid 1 and 2 and the 1st Taken blows Bond out of the water too in terms of action. But Bond movies are not exactly 100% action movies like DH, Taken or The Raid. Bond are more like a mix of action/spy thriller/adventure films. The only Bond, IMO that plays out like a flat out action movie is QOS, and even then it's got a lot more quiet/drama moments than say Die Hard 3 or Taken 1. I think the 3 Bourne films with Damon are a more close comparison to Die Hard, as they seemed to me much more action-orientated than the Bond films are.
  • Posts: 1,146
    Stamper: "He was like a father to me."


    LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  • Posts: 1,146
    @doubleohdad as an action film, I agree, the original Die Hard blows most Bond films of the water, same as The Raid 1 and 2 and the 1st Taken blows Bond out of the water too in terms of action. But Bond movies are not exactly 100% action movies like DH, Taken or The Raid. Bond are more like a mix of action/spy thriller/adventure films. The only Bond, IMO that plays out like a flat out action movie is QOS, and even then it's got a lot more quiet/drama moments than say Die Hard 3 or Taken 1. I think the 3 Bourne films with Damon are a more close comparison to Die Hard, as they seemed to me much more action-orientated than the Bond films are.

    How are they not action films?

    Bond films are listed as Action/Adventure films in the video store rows back then and on Amazon now.

    There's nothing wrong with saying some films are better than some of the Bond films, or that some Bond films are better than others. It's just reality.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    Now I really want John McTiernan to direct a Bond film.
  • Posts: 1,146
    Murdock wrote: »
    Now I really want John McTiernan to direct a Bond film.

    NOW you're talking!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited November 2014 Posts: 15,718
    I didnt' say Bond movies are not action movies, I said they are not solely action movies like say Taken or Die Hard, they are part action, part adventure, part spy thriller. I mean, if you take most of the original Bond movies, you can't really call them action movies in the modern sense in the world post-1980's. If you show an outing like DN/FRWL to someone who doesn't know James Bond, and then show him Die Hard, he'll have trouble to put the 2 films in the same category. Even more recent outings, like in the same decade, I'd put OP closer to Indiana Jones than Die Hard.
  • Posts: 1,146
    There's more to those films as well. the bad one like the die hard sequels or any other bad action movie is that they try to be nothing but.
  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    Posts: 5,080
    Stamper: "He was like a father to me."


    LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    We were discussing Bond, not Stamper!
  • Posts: 1,146
    "Can you ask the General WHERE he'd like his missiles?"

    LOLOLOL!
  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    edited November 2014 Posts: 5,080
    "Bird never make nest in bird tree"

    LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!
  • Posts: 1,146
    Actually, it's "Bird never make nest in bare tree."

    :)

    "I'd say he's developed an edifice complex."

    OUCH.

  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    Keep it on topic folks.
  • Posts: 1,146
    Ok, cool.

    Great dialogue from DE:

    "Your watch was there, frozen by the Goldeneye blast."


    More diabolical TND Dialogue:

    "I thought we might link up."

  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    Posts: 5,080
    Ok, cool.

    Great dialogue from DE:

    "Your watch was there, frozen by the Goldeneye blast."


    More diabolical TND Dialogue:

    "I thought we might link up."

    Actually, it's GE. But, what the hell!

    I really dig Carver's speech to the media moguls near the beginning of TND. Some great dialogue there.
  • Posts: 1,146
    Like,"Then release the tape anyway?"


    Eeesh, ok.
  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    edited November 2014 Posts: 5,080
    Like,"Then release the tape anyway?"


    Eeesh, ok.

    Indeed.

    I think Elliot Carver has some great dialogue throughout the film, and that's why he is one of my favourite villains. His performance is also very reminiscent of Max Zorin, which is perhaps why his character appeals to me. I think I do prefer Alec Trevelyan, however (who also has excellent dialogue).
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,718
    Like,"Then release the tape anyway?"


    Eeesh, ok.

    "What's the matter? No glib remark? No pity comeback?"
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited November 2014 Posts: 17,804
    Bond films are listed as Action/Adventure films in the video store rows back then and on Amazon now.
    More dod proof? Really, you're getting very tiresome. :)) Run along and play now, while the adults talk.

    Let's remember, Bond films started out as spy thrillers. YOLT raised the action bar historically, and since then, action has been associated with Bond, but the best Bond movies are never action films on the level of Die Hard or even Lethal Weapon. Brosnan's movies fell into the trap of needing action with a big "A" to compete in the marketplace. IMO it was an artistic mistake but a financial success. I've never watched Bond for the action first, and in Brosnan's first two, I was entertained enormously by all aspects of the films, not just the action. AND, if the action had been toned down a bit, they might have even been all the better for it- you can't say that about Die Hard or Predator.... ;)
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited November 2014 Posts: 15,718
    Thanks for agreeing with me, @chrisisall :) I thought I was alone in not categorizing Bond as 100% action films.
  • Posts: 1,146
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Bond films are listed as Action/Adventure films in the video store rows back then and on Amazon now.
    More dod proof? Really, you're getting very tiresome. :)) Run along and play now, while the adults talk.



    Lol, if that's what you think you're sure going to a lot of trouble to rebut my posts.

    :)
  • Posts: 1,146
    Thanks for agreeing with me, @chrisisall :) I thought I was alone in not categorizing Bond as 100% action films.

    What are they, then? Drama? Some of them are sure comedies, of course. The bad ones.

    Bond films aren't action films…gimme a break. Just afraid to concede that the 80's or 90's films could not hold their end of the action against the action heavyweights.

  • I would probably label Bond as action, mystery and thriller with a dose of light comedy depending which film it was.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    Thanks for agreeing with me, @chrisisall :) I thought I was alone in not categorizing Bond as 100% action films.
    The one thing I think the Brosnan & Craig eras got wrong IMHO. They tried a little too hard on the action... Bond films by their very nature will lose toe-to-toe with hardcore action films, as they SHOULD. My main problem with both DAD & CR is the level of action they attempted to blast us with. The more things change, the more (some) things stay the same. So yeah, GE & TND FAILED at giving us Die Hard/Predator quality violence. Good. :)>-
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited November 2014 Posts: 15,718
    @doubleohdad you seem to have problem to understand I do not deny Bond movies are action movies, I am just saying they are not 100% action movies like Taken or The Raid or Die Hard. And I did say that I agree with Raid, Taken and DH blow Bond movies out of the water in terms of action scenes, but Bond movies have a broader appeal and bigger scope that makes me rank them above these.

    And even then, Bond movies have a big plus going for them - stunts. Stuff like the tank chase in GE, parkour chase in CR, ski jump in TSWLM and even the car jump in TMWTGG (on mute) are more epic than most of the fist fight/fire fight in Taken, Die Hard and Expendables. DH's got the upper hand on the 'traditional action scenes', but for stunts you don't need to look anywhere else than the Bond franchise.
  • edited November 2014 Posts: 6,432
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Thanks for agreeing with me, @chrisisall :) I thought I was alone in not categorizing Bond as 100% action films.
    The one thing I think the Brosnan & Craig eras got wrong IMHO. They tried a little too hard on the action... Bond films by their very nature will lose toe-to-toe with hardcore action films, as they SHOULD. My main problem with both DAD & CR is the level of action they attempted to blast us with. The more things change, the more (some) things stay the same. So yeah, GE & TND FAILED at giving us Die Hard/Predator quality violence. Good. :)>-

    Did you just quote Morpheus ;) Bond films are more than just action, when action top heavy its easy to lose interest.
  • edited November 2014 Posts: 11,425
    Thanks for agreeing with me, @chrisisall :) I thought I was alone in not categorizing Bond as 100% action films.

    I thought I made exactly that point about eight pages back!?

    Anyway, obviously Bond is not straight action. Really Bond is in a genre of its own, called 'Bond movies'. Those who like Bond movies understand exactly what this means.

    Which is not to denigrate action films. Die Hard and Predator are absolutely brilliant at what they do. Perhaps the best of their particular genre. Both made before CGI but the SFX are perfect. Inspired casting. Both Willis and Arnie are absolutely perfect for their roles. The people making both movies knew exactly what they were doing and executed it perfectly.

    Pure action is where the narrative drive is the action itself. This is actually rarely done very well. Another very good example of the genre IMO is Mel Gibson's Apocalypto.

    Anyway, Bond films are different. Yes, they perhaps contributed to the evolution of the action genre, but they were never 100% in that category. Just as the novels are not just about action. In an interview while making LTK Dalton described the Bond movies as a mixture of thriller, adventure and romance. They are rooted in a much older tradition. Bond has echoes of the Edwardian imperialist swashbuckling adventurer, blended with the 20th century modern man of technology, guilt free sex and ennui. He straddles two eras - neither of which are particularly close to our own. He's a relic, as SF was so clumsily intent on pointing out. And he's not an action hero.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    Getafix wrote: »
    he's not an action hero.
    Bottom line. ;)
  • Posts: 1,146
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    he's not an action hero.
    Bottom line. ;)

    Not an action hero? Seriously?
    That's just a response to avoid saying that the significant 80's action films were not better than the '80's Bond films.

    The Brosnan films don't compare to the Bourne films, is this where someone writes in that Bond is not a spy?
  • Posts: 11,425
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    he's not an action hero.
    Bottom line. ;)

    Not an action hero? Seriously?
    That's just a response to avoid saying that the significant 80's action films were not better than the '80's Bond films.

    The Brosnan films don't compare to the Bourne films, is this where someone writes in that Bond is not a spy?

    Have you watched the early Bond films? Don't you see that they come from a totally different place from 80s action movies? That is the tradition that the 80s Bonds were following in. Plot and narrative were still important.
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