"GE" vs "TND": Why is the first generally considered better than the second?

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  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    Not an action hero? Seriously?
    You need a time out, little one. Go watch "Last Action Hero" or "True Lies" to see what Bond isn't.
    ;)
  • Posts: 11,425
    Can someone flag that happidididad moron who is spamming the site?
  • Posts: 1,146
    @doubleohdad you seem to have problem to understand I do not deny Bond movies are action movies, I am just saying they are not 100% action movies like Taken or The Raid or Die Hard. And I did say that I agree with Raid, Taken and DH blow Bond movies out of the water in terms of action scenes, but Bond movies have a broader appeal and bigger scope that makes me rank them above these.

    And even then, Bond movies have a big plus going for them - stunts. Stuff like the tank chase in GE, parkour chase in CR, ski jump in TSWLM and even the car jump in TMWTGG (on mute) are more epic than most of the fist fight/fire fight in Taken, Die Hard and Expendables. DH's got the upper hand on the 'traditional action scenes', but for stunts you don't need to look anywhere else than the Bond franchise.


    Was it more epic than the live jump from 40 stories up in Die Hard? They did that LIVE, no wires. TO me, that stunt is more impressive than the stuff you just mentioned, though the stuff in CR is really impressive.

    The tank chase in GE starts off great, then they do the gag with the horse statue and it just undercuts the tone completely.

    The sheriff in MWTGG makes that jump ridicuolus, especially since you cut to his arse over the camera either in the middle or the end of that stunt.

    TO be specific, we were contrasting the 80's stuff, though i see you have to go out of the decade to provide competition. Were the 80's actionstuffs that mediocre? Some...nice stuff in a few of the Bond films, but nothing like Die Hard, Predator, and I haven't even mentioned the Indy films yet.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    Getafix wrote: »
    Can someone flag that happidididad moron who is spamming the site?
    Sadly, one cannot flag a poster merely because he or she is possessed of simpleton opinions.
    :))
  • Posts: 11,425
    TMWTGG is 70s
  • Posts: 1,146
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    Can someone flag that happidididad moron who is spamming the site?
    Sadly, one cannot flag a poster merely because he or she is possessed of simpleton opinions.
    :))

    If that's your only means of reply, you've clearly lost the debate and have no other choice but to resort to insults

    :)
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    If that's your only means of reply, you've clearly lost the debate and have no other choice but to resort to insults
    Losing patience is not the same as losing a debate. :))
  • Posts: 1,146
    It is when you cannot counter the other side of the debate.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited November 2014 Posts: 17,804
    Whatever.
  • Posts: 1,146
    Yep!



    :)
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,718
    @doubleohdad how can you describe the 1980's Bond outings as 100% action movies? Was FYEO flat out action like Die Hard? or OP? AVTAK? Yes TLD has more action but have you forgotten all the cold war stuff, the romance, the thriller elements? Die Hard is fine and all, but how can you compare it to scenes in TLD like the extraction segment of Koskov? Or the whole Bond meet Kara? Or the fare scenes?

    TLD is a cold war thriller. Die Hard is a fun action movie. Sure they were made in the same era but they're not comparable. Sorry but if you classify TLD as the same type of movie as Die Hard or Predator, I don't know which version of TLD you saw. As I said, show TLD to a huge fan of Die Hard that doesn't know Bond, and he wouldn't classify them in the same category.
  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    edited November 2014 Posts: 5,080
    @doubleohdad how can you describe the 1980's Bond outings as 100% action movies? Was FYEO flat out action like Die Hard? or OP? AVTAK? Yes TLD has more action but have you forgotten all the cold war stuff, the romance, the thriller elements? Die Hard is fine and all, but how can you compare it to scenes in TLD like the extraction segment of Koskov? Or the whole Bond meet Kara? Or the fare scenes?

    TLD is a cold war thriller. Die Hard is a fun action movie. Sure they were made in the same era but they're not comparable. Sorry but if you classify TLD as the same type of movie as Die Hard or Predator, I don't know which version of TLD you saw. As I said, show TLD to a huge fan of Die Hard that doesn't know Bond, and he wouldn't classify them in the same category.

    100% agreed @DaltonCraig007. If anyone relegates any Bond film to a 100% action film, then you do not know Bond. This is, doubleohdad, where you are irrefutably wrong.

    Oh, and have a bit of RottenTomatoes treatment yourself!

    RottenTomatoes lists the genre of the 80s and 90s Bond films as "Mystery, suspense, adventure AND action". Or there's about, with some variation ;)
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,218
    "Please understand: James Bond is not an action hero. He is too good for that. He is an attitude. Violence for him is an annoyance. He exists for the foreplay and the cigarette."
    - Roger Ebert
  • Posts: 11,425
    "Please understand: James Bond is not an action hero. He is too good for that. He is an attitude. Violence for him is an annoyance. He exists for the foreplay and the cigarette."
    - Roger Ebert

    Nice quote.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2014 Posts: 23,883
    I think EON themselves (and Michael Wilson in particular, as I understand he had a lead role during the 90s) misunderstood what Bond was about during that immediately post-Cubby period. So we can't really blame the audience & critics for misundertanding as well if the producers were giving our wrong messages. I posit that EON did in fact attempt to make him a Rambo-like action hero, running around like an idiot with machine guns twirling about on one pinky.

    As others have said, and as is quite obvious, I think they really were subsequently shook up in the early 00's by the success of the Bourne films, and it made them realize that there really is an audience out there for an old fashioned, hard hitting, spy like franchise with mature acting performances & some danger.

    Prior to that, they were caught up in their own success. The Brosnan films were increasingly more successful, and particularly after the somewhat lackluster 80s (commercially speaking for Bond rather than critically) they were stuck in a box, trying harder to make XXX style action movies rather than spy thrillers, since that catered to the masses. Bourne woke them up to all that, and made them realize that there was an intelligent audience out there that could be appealed to. We owe that franchise a great debt for bringing EON to their senses and for stopping them from chasing to the bottom.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,718
    You take any kid aged 12 to about 15, that hasn't seen many movies yet, and you show in successive order a Bond movie, a Die Hard movie and an Indiana Jones movie, I would bet anything he'd relate Bond closer to Indy than McClane. Bond's got a fair dose of action, but has never been flat out action like Die Hard (even during the Brosnan years, IMO), but the globe-trotting, epic scope and grand-scale adventure of the 007 flicks woulds remind newcomers to Indy more.

    If I can simplify : Indy/Bond = action + adventure ( + spy/thriller for Bond), Die Hard = action. Die Hard 1 takes place in 1 location (a building) thus significantly reducing the pararells to Bond films which are much broader in scope and scale.

  • Posts: 1,146
    @doubleohdad how can you describe the 1980's Bond outings as 100% action movies? Was FYEO flat out action like Die Hard? or OP? AVTAK? Yes TLD has more action but have you forgotten all the cold war stuff, the romance, the thriller elements? Die Hard is fine and all, but how can you compare it to scenes in TLD like the extraction segment of Koskov? Or the whole Bond meet Kara? Or the fare scenes?

    TLD is a cold war thriller. Die Hard is a fun action movie. Sure they were made in the same era but they're not comparable. Sorry but if you classify TLD as the same type of movie as Die Hard or Predator, I don't know which version of TLD you saw. As I said, show TLD to a huge fan of Die Hard that doesn't know Bond, and he wouldn't classify them in the same category.

    100% agreed @DaltonCraig007. If anyone relegates any Bond film to a 100% action film, then you do not know Bond. This is, doubleohdad, where you are irrefutably wrong.

    Oh, and have a bit of RottenTomatoes treatment yourself!

    RottenTomatoes lists the genre of the 80s and 90s Bond films as "Mystery, suspense, adventure AND action". Or there's about, with some variation ;)


    Funny how you will state that Rotten Tomatoes and critics in general are not acknowledged or respected on these threads- yet you run to them and pull them out when you need them.

    So, to be clear, are critics and Rotten Tomatoes-like sites to be used in debates here or not?

    Kind of contradictory, is it not?
  • @doubleohdad how can you describe the 1980's Bond outings as 100% action movies? Was FYEO flat out action like Die Hard? or OP? AVTAK? Yes TLD has more action but have you forgotten all the cold war stuff, the romance, the thriller elements? Die Hard is fine and all, but how can you compare it to scenes in TLD like the extraction segment of Koskov? Or the whole Bond meet Kara? Or the fare scenes?

    TLD is a cold war thriller. Die Hard is a fun action movie. Sure they were made in the same era but they're not comparable. Sorry but if you classify TLD as the same type of movie as Die Hard or Predator, I don't know which version of TLD you saw. As I said, show TLD to a huge fan of Die Hard that doesn't know Bond, and he wouldn't classify them in the same category.

    100% agreed @DaltonCraig007. If anyone relegates any Bond film to a 100% action film, then you do not know Bond. This is, doubleohdad, where you are irrefutably wrong.

    Oh, and have a bit of RottenTomatoes treatment yourself!

    RottenTomatoes lists the genre of the 80s and 90s Bond films as "Mystery, suspense, adventure AND action". Or there's about, with some variation ;)


    Funny how you will state that Rotten Tomatoes and critics in general are not acknowledged or respected on these threads- yet you run to them and pull them out when you need them.

    So, to be clear, are critics and Rotten Tomatoes-like sites to be used in debates here or not?

    Kind of contradictory, is it not?

    Just look at this topic: http://www.mi6community.com/index.php?p=/discussion/4960/skyfall-vs-casino-royale-on-rotten-tomatoes-metacritic-imdb-update-11-9-2014#latest . You'll find that many Bond fans in here (forum members in here, not general movie lovers) actually don't acknowledge critics' site like Rotten Tomatoes, nor even it's "people's choice voting button" (so much about democracy). And respect? Well, just read a few posts in that topic :-).
  • Posts: 1,146
    "Please understand: James Bond is not an action hero. He is too good for that. He is an attitude. Violence for him is an annoyance. He exists for the foreplay and the cigarette."
    - Roger Ebert

    That quote certainly would not apply to the Connery Bind films, whose violence is abundant.

    Either not knowledgeable or contradictory.
  • Posts: 1,146
    @doubleohdad how can you describe the 1980's Bond outings as 100% action movies? Was FYEO flat out action like Die Hard? or OP? AVTAK? Yes TLD has more action but have you forgotten all the cold war stuff, the romance, the thriller elements? Die Hard is fine and all, but how can you compare it to scenes in TLD like the extraction segment of Koskov? Or the whole Bond meet Kara? Or the fare scenes?

    TLD is a cold war thriller. Die Hard is a fun action movie. Sure they were made in the same era but they're not comparable. Sorry but if you classify TLD as the same type of movie as Die Hard or Predator, I don't know which version of TLD you saw. As I said, show TLD to a huge fan of Die Hard that doesn't know Bond, and he wouldn't classify them in the same category.

    TLD is a better than average James Bond film, Die Hard is one of hte best action films ever made. The Early Bond films were on the cutting edge of violence in cinema, and while I get the point of stating that Bond is 'not just an action hero', to say that TLD or any of the '80's Bonds compare to Die Hard even as just film, that film blew any of the 80's Bonds out of the water, story-wise and action-wise
  • Posts: 1,146
    Rotten Tomatoes:

    Die Hard 92%

    TLD 75 %

    LTK 76%

    VTAK 36 % lol

    OP 42 %

    FYEO 73 %

  • Posts: 1,146
    You take any kid aged 12 to about 15, that hasn't seen many movies yet, and you show in successive order a Bond movie, a Die Hard movie and an Indiana Jones movie, I would bet anything he'd relate Bond closer to Indy than McClane. Bond's got a fair dose of action, but has never been flat out action like Die Hard (even during the Brosnan years, IMO), but the globe-trotting, epic scope and grand-scale adventure of the 007 flicks woulds remind newcomers to Indy more.

    If I can simplify : Indy/Bond = action + adventure ( + spy/thriller for Bond), Die Hard = action. Die Hard 1 takes place in 1 location (a building) thus significantly reducing the pararells to Bond films which are much broader in scope and scale.

    You can do whatever math you want, Die Hard and the Indy films flat-out are better pictures than the 80's Bond films. Predator as well.

  • Rotten Tomatoes:

    Die Hard 92%

    TLD 75 %

    LTK 76%

    VTAK 36 % lol

    OP 42 %

    FYEO 73 %

    What rating are you looking at really. Prof. Reviewers rating? Or the Public Vote rating?

    Also, you obviously can't just flat out compare these film without seeing things into perspective.
  • Posts: 1,146
    A film is a film is a film. Bond has other components, but they are meant to be action films. Watch the DVD remaster trailer. ALLLLL they show are the action bits.

    You're only stating that because the films are simply not as good as Die Hard.
  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    Posts: 5,080
    @doubleohdad how can you describe the 1980's Bond outings as 100% action movies? Was FYEO flat out action like Die Hard? or OP? AVTAK? Yes TLD has more action but have you forgotten all the cold war stuff, the romance, the thriller elements? Die Hard is fine and all, but how can you compare it to scenes in TLD like the extraction segment of Koskov? Or the whole Bond meet Kara? Or the fare scenes?

    TLD is a cold war thriller. Die Hard is a fun action movie. Sure they were made in the same era but they're not comparable. Sorry but if you classify TLD as the same type of movie as Die Hard or Predator, I don't know which version of TLD you saw. As I said, show TLD to a huge fan of Die Hard that doesn't know Bond, and he wouldn't classify them in the same category.

    100% agreed @DaltonCraig007. If anyone relegates any Bond film to a 100% action film, then you do not know Bond. This is, doubleohdad, where you are irrefutably wrong.

    Oh, and have a bit of RottenTomatoes treatment yourself!

    RottenTomatoes lists the genre of the 80s and 90s Bond films as "Mystery, suspense, adventure AND action". Or there's about, with some variation ;)


    Funny how you will state that Rotten Tomatoes and critics in general are not acknowledged or respected on these threads- yet you run to them and pull them out when you need them.

    So, to be clear, are critics and Rotten Tomatoes-like sites to be used in debates here or not?

    Kind of contradictory, is it not?

    No, because if you cared to grasp the tone of my comment, you can see that I was being sarcastic and poking fun at your desire to use rating websites as a source of fact.

    But I think it is pretty obvious that anyone with knowledge of film recognises that Bond films are a little more than your average action film.
    "Please understand: James Bond is not an action hero. He is too good for that. He is an attitude. Violence for him is an annoyance. He exists for the foreplay and the cigarette."
    - Roger Ebert

    That quote certainly would not apply to the Connery Bind films, whose violence is abundant.

    Either not knowledgeable or contradictory.

    It's funny how you think that film critics and reviewers are connoisseurs when it comes to Bond films, but immediately rebuke them when they prove you wrong.

    Kind of contradictory, is it not?

    As for the Connery films being "abundant in violence", you may want to visit the "most violent Bond film" thread, where you will find that it is the Craig films and Dalton's two that are recognised as the most violent. Licence to Kill even has a '15' rating (in the UK, that is, which I suppose is equivalent to US 'R' rating).

    Anyhow; what Roger Ebert said, in fact, is that Bond (any Bond) does not revel or particularly enjoy the violence that he experiences. This is a fundamental characteristic of the James Bond character.
    A film is a film is a film. Bond has other components, but they are meant to be action films. Watch the DVD remaster trailer. ALLLLL they show are the action bits.

    You're only stating that because the films are simply not as good as Die Hard.

    I'm sorry, but if you're using that as a basis for your argument, then it is you who have well and truly "lost this argument".
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,218
    You take any kid aged 12 to about 15, that hasn't seen many movies yet, and you show in successive order a Bond movie, a Die Hard movie and an Indiana Jones movie, I would bet anything he'd relate Bond closer to Indy than McClane. Bond's got a fair dose of action, but has never been flat out action like Die Hard (even during the Brosnan years, IMO), but the globe-trotting, epic scope and grand-scale adventure of the 007 flicks woulds remind newcomers to Indy more.

    If I can simplify : Indy/Bond = action + adventure ( + spy/thriller for Bond), Die Hard = action. Die Hard 1 takes place in 1 location (a building) thus significantly reducing the pararells to Bond films which are much broader in scope and scale.

    You can do whatever math you want, Die Hard and the Indy films flat-out are better pictures than the 80's Bond films. Predator as well.

    Better, yes. The only Bond that would come close to any of them would be TLD. But "killed the franchise"?
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited November 2014 Posts: 15,718
    The 1980's Bond films were cold war thrillers. You can't deny that the relation between the franchise and the cold war reached it's peak in the 1980's. From 1962 to 1989 Bond films were romanticized fantasies about the cold war. They were set in an escapist world, but the films, especially in the 1980's, were firmly set in the cold war, echoing what was happening in the real world. What did Die Hard echo? Apart from being a fun action movie with Bruce Willis killing everything that moves, what did it echo about the real world at the time? It's basicly just a bank robbers movie filmed as flat-out actioner. The 80's Bond had much bigger scope, as adventures and as historical documents of the society, geopolitics and world at the time.

    Die Hard is a fun action movie, but that's it. TLD, and the other Bond films of the 1980's were not just action movies, they were cold war thrillers, adventures and testatments of their time.
  • A film is a film is a film. Bond has other components, but they are meant to be action films. Watch the DVD remaster trailer. ALLLLL they show are the action bits.

    You're only stating that because the films are simply not as good as Die Hard.

    That's what you think. I don't care if "DVD remaster trailers" are saying that to us. For every Bond fan a Bond film is foremost a joyous ride of recognition.

    In my opinion Bond films are not stuck to one particular genre. And it really depends on the timeframe they have been produced.

    In the rather "economically safe and peaceful" nineties, the Bond films were more action oriented and had quite some entertainment value.

    The Bond films of the last two decades (2006 - now) are slightly more intelligent, have more drama and romance, and don't shy away for more grittier, cold-blooded action.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    I'm sorry, but if you're using that as a basis for your argument, then it is you who have well and truly "lost this argument".
    doubleohdad will be all like

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2014 Posts: 23,883
    I agree that it very much depends on the timeframe in which the movie is made.

    Bond movies in particular tend to take trends from the eras that they are made in.

    Martial arts - TMWTGG (apeing Bruce Lee)
    Space - MR (apeing Star Wars & Trek)
    Gritty Violence - CR/QoS (apeing Bourne)
    Jungle Adventure - OP (apeing recent Indy success including Moore's jackets)
    Action - DAD (apeing XXX & other 90's hits)
    Blaxploitation - LALD (apeing numerous movies from that time)
    TDK - SF (arguably)
    Drugs - LTK (drugs were a staple of the 80s with Reagan's war on drugs)

    Whether Bond should have been influenced by the above is questionable. There's no denying that they were however.

    Die Hard is one of the seminal movies made. It moved the action era forward in many ways (including its very fast-for the time pacing & action combat scenes) and forced all franchises to move with it. In this way it was very similar to Bourne that had a similar impact.

    Die Hard & Bond are two entirely different animals. Where action is concerned, Die Hard did influence directors. I noticed some of Die Hard's pacing in some of the action scenes in LTK, the first time I saw that movie in the theatre. Michael Kamen did LTK's score, and it's no coincidence that he was just coming off Lethal Weapon/Die Hard.

    They are two entirely different kinds of movies though.
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