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"GE" vs "TND": Why is the first generally considered better than the second?

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  • doubleohdaddoubleohdad
    Posts: 1,146
    Let's compare:

    Bike chase in TND to the car chase a the beginning of the second Bourne film, where his girl gets shot. No comparison there, actually humiliation.

    Remember the dreadful Wai Lin dialogue on the bike? THe silly, unbelievable landing on the bike as it Roger Moored over the helicopter? They should have put the Tarzan yell over that one!

    COmpare the fight on the giant skateboard, I mean the stealth boat to the car chase at the end of the second Bourne film, which is basically one of the best car chases ever.

    No Comparison.

    Remember the sub chase at the beginning of TWINE when Bros STRIAGHTENS HIS TIE?

    COmpare that with the tunisia bomb scene/ alleyway chase and life fight in Bourne 3

    Not even close

    embarrassment, actually/

  • Matt_HelmMatt_Helm
    Posts: 908
    doubleohdad wrote: »
    Let's compare:

    Bike chase in TND to the car chase a the beginning of the second Bourne film, where his girl gets shot. No comparison there, actually humiliation.

    Remember the dreadful Wai Lin dialogue on the bike? THe silly, unbelievable landing on the bike as it Roger Moored over the helicopter? They should have put the Tarzan yell over that one!

    COmpare the fight on the giant skateboard, I mean the stealth boat to the car chase at the end of the second Bourne film, which is basically one of the best car chases ever.

    No Comparison.

    Remember the sub chase at the beginning of TWINE when Bros STRIAGHTENS HIS TIE?

    COmpare that with the tunisia bomb scene/ alleyway chase and life fight in Bourne 3

    Not even close

    embarrassment, actually/

    You are making your points quite arbitrary, don't you?
  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    Posts: 5,080
    IN YOUR OPINION. Seriously, I need another function to make this message even more pronounced.

    I don't partcularly care for any of the scenes from the Bourne series that you just mentioned! :)>-
  • GetafixGetafix
    Posts: 11,425
    MayDayDiVicenzo wrote: »
    doubleohdad wrote: »
    NOT because of the Bourne films? Huh? So then they bagan to emulate and hire the Bourne stunt crew?

    Huh?

    They were certainly not trying to emulate the Bourne films with Casino Royale (which blows any Bourne film out of the water). The darker, more intense tone was in response to the 9/11 attacks and to repair the damage done by Die Another Day.

    But Quantum of Solace was very much like a Bourne film solely because of Marc Forster's casting choices. And for a lot of people (not myself), QOS was a huge disappointment and labelled as one of the worst Bond films of all time.

    So in short, the reboot was NOT because of the Bourne series (which is insignificant compared with the Bond series, and the Brosnan films were a greater financial success than the Bourne films, btw), but QOS, and only QOS, was influenced somewhat by the Bourne films.
    doubleohdad wrote: »
    TND and TWINE are just embarrassments compared to the Bourne films.

    In your opinion.
    Still, I'm not sure why you are comparing those films with the Bourne films. Surely QOS is a much better example?

    Sorry I disagree. I think the Bourne films have been a big influence on the Craig era and on the whole tone since He took over in the lead role.
  • doubleohdaddoubleohdad
    Posts: 1,146
    MayDayDiVicenzo wrote: »
    IN YOUR OPINION. Seriously, I need another function to make this message even more pronounced.

    I don't partcularly care for any of the scenes from the Bourne series that you just mentioned! :)>-

    I've seen the Bourne scenes with audiences and they gasp, and I've seen audiences laugh at the Bros films, so in the final measure, the public laughed at Bros and gasped at the intense, fun Bourne and giggled at the tsunami surfing

    they should have played the Benny HIll theme over the tsunami surfing.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    doubleohdad wrote: »
    THe silly, unbelievable landing on the bike as it Roger Moored over the helicopter? They should have put the Tarzan yell over that one!

    You mean the real stunt, that was actually executed? If you think Bond is forever trumped by Die Hard, Predator, Bourne, why are you here? I know the answer, I'm being rhetorical.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2014 Posts: 23,883
    While there's no doubt that the Bourne fights are very intense, and handled very well, I always feel that they owe a great deal to Grant/007 in FRWL. Given when that movie was made, it is a benchmark fight. The grittiness, the hurt, the blood, the visceral nature of it. Bourne takes that and ups it by 10 combined with fast editing.

    Arguably the Craig era fights are cribbing from the grand daddy of them all. FRWL.

    PS: I am looking for a gritty fight in B24. I wasn't too impressed with the fights in SF compared to CR/QoS.
  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    Posts: 5,080
    doubleohdad wrote: »
    MayDayDiVicenzo wrote: »
    IN YOUR OPINION. Seriously, I need another function to make this message even more pronounced.

    I don't partcularly care for any of the scenes from the Bourne series that you just mentioned! :)>-

    I've seen the Bourne scenes with audiences and they gasp, and I've seen audiences laugh at the Bros films, so in the final measure, the public laughed at Bros and gasped at the intense, fun Bourne and giggled at the tsunami surfing

    they should have played the Benny HIll theme over the tsunami surfing.

    Like I have said before, I'm not defending DAD. I laughed too.

    As there is no way to verify you cinema audience claims, I'll just take it with a pinch of salt.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,362
    doubleohdad wrote: »
    MayDayDiVicenzo wrote: »
    IN YOUR OPINION. Seriously, I need another function to make this message even more pronounced.

    I don't partcularly care for any of the scenes from the Bourne series that you just mentioned! :)>-

    I've seen the Bourne scenes with audiences and they gasp, and I've seen audiences laugh at the Bros films, so in the final measure, the public laughed at Bros and gasped at the intense, fun Bourne and giggled at the tsunami surfing

    they should have played the Benny HIll theme over the tsunami surfing.
    So what? You clearly don't like Brosnan's films. why are you even commenting here?
  • doubleohdaddoubleohdad
    Posts: 1,146
    RC7 wrote: »
    doubleohdad wrote: »
    THe silly, unbelievable landing on the bike as it Roger Moored over the helicopter? They should have put the Tarzan yell over that one!

    You mean the real stunt, that was actually executed? If you think Bond is forever trumped by Die Hard, Predator, Bourne, why are you here? I know the answer, I'm being rhetorical.

    Because I like Bond movies but can be objective and not a sycophant. Can you?

  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,835
    Murdock wrote: »
    So what? You clearly don't like Brosnan's films. why are you even commenting here?
    For the same reason I go to the Buffy website to laugh about how Twilight embarrasses & blows away the Slayer. Except, errrr, I don't do that... that would be a stupid waste of my time, plus Buffy was actually better. :))
    And this will go right over dod's head I assume. ;)
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,362
    doubleohdad wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    doubleohdad wrote: »
    THe silly, unbelievable landing on the bike as it Roger Moored over the helicopter? They should have put the Tarzan yell over that one!

    You mean the real stunt, that was actually executed? If you think Bond is forever trumped by Die Hard, Predator, Bourne, why are you here? I know the answer, I'm being rhetorical.

    Because I like Bond movies but can be objective and not a sycophant. Can you?
    Can you put that in english for those of us who don't speak spy?
  • doubleohdaddoubleohdad
    Posts: 1,146
    MayDayDiVicenzo wrote: »
    doubleohdad wrote: »
    MayDayDiVicenzo wrote: »
    IN YOUR OPINION. Seriously, I need another function to make this message even more pronounced.

    I don't partcularly care for any of the scenes from the Bourne series that you just mentioned! :)>-

    I've seen the Bourne scenes with audiences and they gasp, and I've seen audiences laugh at the Bros films, so in the final measure, the public laughed at Bros and gasped at the intense, fun Bourne and giggled at the tsunami surfing

    they should have played the Benny HIll theme over the tsunami surfing.

    Like I have said before, I'm not defending DAD. I laughed too.

    As there is no way to verify you cinema audience claims, I'll just take it with a pinch of salt.

    YOU brought up Rotten tomatoes yesterday, wanna see how each of the brazes measures up against the Bournes?

    You know, just because some of the Bond films are not as good as other films, that does not make you an anti-bond fan to express objective opinions.

  • doubleohdaddoubleohdad
    Posts: 1,146
    bondjames wrote: »
    While there's no doubt that the Bourne fights are very intense, and handled very well, I always feel that they owe a great deal to Grant/007 in FRWL. Given when that movie was made, it is a benchmark fight. The grittiness, the hurt, the blood, the visceral nature of it. Bourne takes that and ups it by 10 combined with fast editing.

    Arguably the Craig era fights are cribbing from the grand daddy of them all. FRWL.

    PS: I am looking for a gritty fight in B24. I wasn't too impressed with the fights in SF compared to CR/QoS.

    TOTALLY agree with that. Totally. Great, objective post.

    respect.
  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    Posts: 5,080
    doubleohdad wrote: »
    MayDayDiVicenzo wrote: »
    doubleohdad wrote: »
    MayDayDiVicenzo wrote: »
    IN YOUR OPINION. Seriously, I need another function to make this message even more pronounced.

    I don't partcularly care for any of the scenes from the Bourne series that you just mentioned! :)>-

    I've seen the Bourne scenes with audiences and they gasp, and I've seen audiences laugh at the Bros films, so in the final measure, the public laughed at Bros and gasped at the intense, fun Bourne and giggled at the tsunami surfing

    they should have played the Benny HIll theme over the tsunami surfing.

    Like I have said before, I'm not defending DAD. I laughed too.

    As there is no way to verify you cinema audience claims, I'll just take it with a pinch of salt.

    YOU brought up Rotten tomatoes yesterday, wanna see how each of the brazes measures up against the Bournes?

    You know, just because some of the Bond films are not as good as other films, that does not make you an anti-bond fan to express objective opinions.

    Yes, and I explained to you why I did so. It seems to have gone over your head, though...

  • doubleohdaddoubleohdad
    Posts: 1,146
    RC7 wrote: »
    doubleohdad wrote: »
    THe silly, unbelievable landing on the bike as it Roger Moored over the helicopter? They should have put the Tarzan yell over that one!

    You mean the real stunt, that was actually executed? If you think Bond is forever trumped by Die Hard, Predator, Bourne, why are you here? I know the answer, I'm being rhetorical.

    Explain what you mean by 'real' stunt in that instance. Curious.
  • doubleohdaddoubleohdad
    Posts: 1,146
    MayDayDiVicenzo wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Welcome back, Mr. Bond. We missed you.

    For some people, he never left.

    Or he just made pretty average to horrible films from OHMSS to CR.
  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    Posts: 5,080
    doubleohdad wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    doubleohdad wrote: »
    THe silly, unbelievable landing on the bike as it Roger Moored over the helicopter? They should have put the Tarzan yell over that one!

    You mean the real stunt, that was actually executed? If you think Bond is forever trumped by Die Hard, Predator, Bourne, why are you here? I know the answer, I'm being rhetorical.

    Explain what you mean by 'real' stunt in that instance. Curious.

    Because the only thing about that stunt that wasn't "real" was the helicopter blades. Apart from that, the bike stunt was done for real and it is pretty awesome.
  • Matt_HelmMatt_Helm
    Posts: 908
    Getafix wrote: »
    MayDayDiVicenzo wrote: »
    doubleohdad wrote: »
    NOT because of the Bourne films? Huh? So then they bagan to emulate and hire the Bourne stunt crew?

    Huh?

    They were certainly not trying to emulate the Bourne films with Casino Royale (which blows any Bourne film out of the water). The darker, more intense tone was in response to the 9/11 attacks and to repair the damage done by Die Another Day.

    But Quantum of Solace was very much like a Bourne film solely because of Marc Forster's casting choices. And for a lot of people (not myself), QOS was a huge disappointment and labelled as one of the worst Bond films of all time.

    So in short, the reboot was NOT because of the Bourne series (which is insignificant compared with the Bond series, and the Brosnan films were a greater financial success than the Bourne films, btw), but QOS, and only QOS, was influenced somewhat by the Bourne films.
    doubleohdad wrote: »
    TND and TWINE are just embarrassments compared to the Bourne films.

    In your opinion.
    Still, I'm not sure why you are comparing those films with the Bourne films. Surely QOS is a much better example?

    Sorry I disagree. I think the Bourne films have been a big influence on the Craig era and on the whole tone since He took over in the lead role.

    And let's not forget about Jack Bauer to whom the current take on Bond also seems to owe a lot.
  • doubleohdaddoubleohdad
    Posts: 1,146
    bondjames wrote: »
    It's important in this ongoing discussion to consider relevancy vs. financial success.

    It's true that Bond was financially successful in the 80's (although less so on a relative scale to the 60s/70s), but it was no longer all that relevant. It just pulled along with its fan base without really adding to it in any meaningful way, nor did it move the barometer (for whatever you want to call these movies....action....spy....whatever) forward at all. Part of that may have been an ageing Moore who was so affixed to the part by then, part of it might have been a lack of ambition or fear on EON's part (post-Moore with Dalton, although we'll never truly know since we did not see where they were headed after the excellent & brave LTK), part of it might have been the HE-MAN action contemporaries of that time (Arnie/Bruce/Sly) that were making it difficult for Bond to compete on a purely 'action' basis. Who knows.

    Bond also chugged along in the 90s. No one can reasonably look back at that era with too much respect or adulation, regardless of the financial successes. I didn't see too much difference in quality between DAD & TWINE (CGI notwithstanding). They both had overacting, poorly developed henchmen/villains (Bullion/Kill), badly delivered one-liners & ridiculous, machine gun totting 'action' with gadgets all over the place. At least TND was a pastiche (in particular to Moore's TSWLM & MR, as well as Connery's YOLT). Brosnan himself made the point of emphasizing that the movies were getting more financially successful as a selling point when he was publicly having his spat with EON (post DAD when he was hoping to come back) which to me was quite telling in terms of his lack of understanding of what Bond had become under his tenure, namely, a caricature without credibility. Whose fault that was I'll leave to more knowledgeable people, but there is no denying that fact.

    I contend that Bond is culturally relevant again. It has done that by returning 'integrity' to the franchise. It is no longer a caricature. It is credible again. It is adding to the fan base considerably (I dislike pulling rottentomato or boxofficmojo stats, but check how Craig's Bonds have performed relative to the top grossing movies of that year vs. Brosnan and you willl see that new fans are coming into the fold - heck, SF took out TDKR globally for pete's sake).

    I welcome the relevancy. I welcome the credibility. I welcome the integrity. Combined with the financial success. Whoever is responsible for that (Bourne, EON, Bab's, Craig, Nolan), thank you. Welcome back, Mr. Bond. We missed you.

    Smart, objective, informed, critical-thinking based post.
  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    Posts: 5,080
    doubleohdad wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    It's important in this ongoing discussion to consider relevancy vs. financial success.

    It's true that Bond was financially successful in the 80's (although less so on a relative scale to the 60s/70s), but it was no longer all that relevant. It just pulled along with its fan base without really adding to it in any meaningful way, nor did it move the barometer (for whatever you want to call these movies....action....spy....whatever) forward at all. Part of that may have been an ageing Moore who was so affixed to the part by then, part of it might have been a lack of ambition or fear on EON's part (post-Moore with Dalton, although we'll never truly know since we did not see where they were headed after the excellent & brave LTK), part of it might have been the HE-MAN action contemporaries of that time (Arnie/Bruce/Sly) that were making it difficult for Bond to compete on a purely 'action' basis. Who knows.

    Bond also chugged along in the 90s. No one can reasonably look back at that era with too much respect or adulation, regardless of the financial successes. I didn't see too much difference in quality between DAD & TWINE (CGI notwithstanding). They both had overacting, poorly developed henchmen/villains (Bullion/Kill), badly delivered one-liners & ridiculous, machine gun totting 'action' with gadgets all over the place. At least TND was a pastiche (in particular to Moore's TSWLM & MR, as well as Connery's YOLT). Brosnan himself made the point of emphasizing that the movies were getting more financially successful as a selling point when he was publicly having his spat with EON (post DAD when he was hoping to come back) which to me was quite telling in terms of his lack of understanding of what Bond had become under his tenure, namely, a caricature without credibility. Whose fault that was I'll leave to more knowledgeable people, but there is no denying that fact.

    I contend that Bond is culturally relevant again. It has done that by returning 'integrity' to the franchise. It is no longer a caricature. It is credible again. It is adding to the fan base considerably (I dislike pulling rottentomato or boxofficmojo stats, but check how Craig's Bonds have performed relative to the top grossing movies of that year vs. Brosnan and you willl see that new fans are coming into the fold - heck, SF took out TDKR globally for pete's sake).

    I welcome the relevancy. I welcome the credibility. I welcome the integrity. Combined with the financial success. Whoever is responsible for that (Bourne, EON, Bab's, Craig, Nolan), thank you. Welcome back, Mr. Bond. We missed you.

    Smart, objective, informed, critical-thinking based post.

    Unlike your posts! :)>-
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,236
    doubleohdad wrote: »
    Let's compare:

    Bike chase in TND to the car chase a the beginning of the second Bourne film, where his girl gets shot. No comparison there, actually humiliation.

    Remember the dreadful Wai Lin dialogue on the bike? THe silly, unbelievable landing on the bike as it Roger Moored over the helicopter? They should have put the Tarzan yell over that one!

    COmpare the fight on the giant skateboard, I mean the stealth boat to the car chase at the end of the second Bourne film, which is basically one of the best car chases ever.

    No Comparison.

    Remember the sub chase at the beginning of TWINE when Bros STRIAGHTENS HIS TIE?

    COmpare that with the tunisia bomb scene/ alleyway chase and life fight in Bourne 3

    Not even close

    embarrassment, actually/

    This is ridiculous. Comparing films with totally different tones and styles as if they were one and the same. Jeeze.

    Trying to compare these cannot be done without involving geo-politics and audience expectations, but that'll bring the thread even further off topic.
  • doubleohdaddoubleohdad
    Posts: 1,146
    CraigMooreOHMSS wrote: »
    doubleohdad wrote: »
    Let's compare:

    Bike chase in TND to the car chase a the beginning of the second Bourne film, where his girl gets shot. No comparison there, actually humiliation.

    Remember the dreadful Wai Lin dialogue on the bike? THe silly, unbelievable landing on the bike as it Roger Moored over the helicopter? They should have put the Tarzan yell over that one!

    COmpare the fight on the giant skateboard, I mean the stealth boat to the car chase at the end of the second Bourne film, which is basically one of the best car chases ever.

    No Comparison.

    Remember the sub chase at the beginning of TWINE when Bros STRIAGHTENS HIS TIE?

    COmpare that with the tunisia bomb scene/ alleyway chase and life fight in Bourne 3

    Not even close

    embarrassment, actually/

    This is ridiculous. Comparing films with totally different tones and styles as if they were one and the same. Jeeze.

    Trying to compare these cannot be done without involving geo-politics and audience expectations, but that'll bring the thread even further off topic.


    EON did, and decided they wanted to make movies like the Bournes.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,236
    doubleohdad wrote: »
    CraigMooreOHMSS wrote: »
    doubleohdad wrote: »
    Let's compare:

    Bike chase in TND to the car chase a the beginning of the second Bourne film, where his girl gets shot. No comparison there, actually humiliation.

    Remember the dreadful Wai Lin dialogue on the bike? THe silly, unbelievable landing on the bike as it Roger Moored over the helicopter? They should have put the Tarzan yell over that one!

    COmpare the fight on the giant skateboard, I mean the stealth boat to the car chase at the end of the second Bourne film, which is basically one of the best car chases ever.

    No Comparison.

    Remember the sub chase at the beginning of TWINE when Bros STRIAGHTENS HIS TIE?

    COmpare that with the tunisia bomb scene/ alleyway chase and life fight in Bourne 3

    Not even close

    embarrassment, actually/

    This is ridiculous. Comparing films with totally different tones and styles as if they were one and the same. Jeeze.

    Trying to compare these cannot be done without involving geo-politics and audience expectations, but that'll bring the thread even further off topic.


    EON did, and decided they wanted to make movies like the Bournes.

    For reasons unrelated to those you specified with such ill knowledge.
  • doubleohdaddoubleohdad
    Posts: 1,146
    Um.. they watched their movies and thought they were getting worse, then saw the Bournes and thought they should do that?

    And hired their stunt crew?

  • doubleohdaddoubleohdad
    Posts: 1,146
    [/quote]

    Smart, objective, informed, critical-thinking based post.[/quote]

    Unlike your posts! :)>- [/quote]

    Sticks and stones, mate.
    Can't debate the issue so resort to insults :)
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,362
    doubleohdad wrote: »
    Um.. they watched their movies and thought they were getting worse,
    pb2.jpg

  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    Posts: 5,080
    doubleohdad wrote: »
    Um.. they watched their movies and thought they were getting worse, then saw the Bournes and thought they should do that?

    Oh, so Barabara, MGW, and EON sat down and watched the Bourne films and thought "oh, well, our 40 year old, successful franchise is no match for these films", and thus rebooted? LOL, OK then.

    And FYI, some of the crew that had worked on the Bourne films were hired for QOS, which I have said is undoubtedly influenced by the Bourne films.
  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    edited November 2014 Posts: 5,080
    doubleohdad wrote: »

    Smart, objective, informed, critical-thinking based post.[/quote]

    Unlike your posts! :)>- [/quote]

    Sticks and stones, mate.
    Can't debate the issue so resort to insults :)[/quote]

    It's not an insult. It's just a fact. And I have debated, and shot down your comments (which you never seem to address, btw), in a much more coherent way than yourself.
  • doubleohdaddoubleohdad
    Posts: 1,146
    MayDayDiVicenzo wrote: »
    doubleohdad wrote: »
    Um.. they watched their movies and thought they were getting worse, then saw the Bournes and thought they should do that?

    Oh, so Barabara, MGW, and EON sat down and watched the Bourne films and thought "oh, well, our 40 year old, successful franchise is no match for these films", and thus rebooted? LOL, OK then.

    And FYI, some of the crew that had worked on the Bourne films were hired for QOS, which I have said is undoubtedly influenced by the Bourne films.

    No, they wached and said, 'these last three movies are god-awful. Let's do it like that Bourne fellow."

    All three of the Craig films have been influenced by the Bournes.
This discussion has been closed.