"GE" vs "TND": Why is the first generally considered better than the second?

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Comments

  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    edited November 2014 Posts: 5,080
    Um.. they watched their movies and thought they were getting worse, then saw the Bournes and thought they should do that?

    Oh, so Barabara, MGW, and EON sat down and watched the Bourne films and thought "oh, well, our 40 year old, successful franchise is no match for these films", and thus rebooted? LOL, OK then.

    And FYI, some of the crew that had worked on the Bourne films were hired for QOS, which I have said is undoubtedly influenced by the Bourne films.

    No, they wached and said, 'these last three movies are god-awful. Let's do it like that Bourne fellow."

    And you can account for that, can you?

    Interviews, behind the scenes videos etc. say otherwise. Barabara and MGW are proud to have revived the series after the long interval.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited November 2014 Posts: 8,218
    It's very hard to debate a topic when the topic itself is totally pointless and an example of grabbing random thoughts from the air, which is what you seem to be doing.

    The Brosnan films came about from a desire for the world to adapt to the changing times which resulted from the collapse of the Cold War. This is why we received films that played on the safer, box checking formula which placed equal emphasis on humour as well action and often attempted to blend the two together to mixed results. The action and the stuntwork is of extremely high quality but action, like many other elements, depends on the strength of its surroundings, and Brosnan's final film (s) suffered immensely from poor storytelling.

    As such, and unfortunately for Brosnan, there would be a second shift in World Affairs in 2001, leaving everyone with an increased appetite for darker, edgier stories involving franchise characters. This change in appetite couldn't have come at a worse time for a film like DAD, and came just in time for something like The Bourne Identity. The Bourne films are ones I have a lot of love for, but they have a massively different approach to its respective character.

    The same way Die Hard films are different to 80's Bond flicks in their utilisation of elements, Damon's Bourne is incomparable to Brosnan's Bond as they are products of a very different time and catered to an audience which wanted something different. The same audiences that would then go on to lap up Nolan's Batman fare and Craig's brooding Bond. This will pass again as all tastes do, and then reappear when timing is right.

    They're incomparable, and as such, your topic is rather empty and pointless.
  • Posts: 1,146
    If my points were empty, you would not have spent so much energy to rebut them

    awesome post until the last line.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,218
    The last line was my favourite.
  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    Posts: 5,080
    Great post, @CraigMooreOHMSS.

    But your posts are pretty empty, dod, when you compare your "clutching at straws" with CraigMoores excellent post. Your points are very meandering, and this is why we are here now. It started of as GE vs TND in terms of dialogue and then turned to "Bourne embarrassed Brosnan", which you brought up.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2014 Posts: 23,883
    This will pass again as all tastes do, and then reappear when timing is right.

    I hope you're wrong, but fear you're right, as sadly at some point the public will want a return to the mindless fare. Things go in circles.

    Regarding Bourne: There was no decline per se in Brosnan's Bond's popularity (DAD was the most successful one he'd done). What had changed was a significant uptick in interest in serious fare like Bourne in a post-911 context. Such movies could not have been as successful in prior years. That was an opportunity for EON (perhaps the opportunity they had been waiting for in years to make something like they did in the Dalton years & still reap financial success). They smelt it and they took it. Good for them.
  • mcdonbbmcdonbb deep in the Heart of Texas
    Posts: 4,116
    And not everyone likes Bourne.. basically the same film over and over. Can't get past that Shakey cam crap to get into that mess anyway.

  • Posts: 1,146
    bondjames wrote: »
    This will pass again as all tastes do, and then reappear when timing is right.

    I hope you're wrong, but fear you're right, as sadly at some point the public will want a return to the mindless fare. Things go in circles.

    Regarding Bourne: There was no decline per se in Brosnan's Bond's popularity (DAD was the most successful one he'd done). What had changed was a significant uptick in interest in serious fare like Bourne in a post-911 context. Such movies could not have been as successful in prior years. That was an opportunity for EON (perhaps the opportunity they had been waiting for in years to make something like they did in the Dalton years & still reap financial success). They smelt it and they took it. Good for them.

    Respect the thoughts here...
  • Posts: 1,146
    The last line was my favourite.

    I know it was, lol

    :)
  • Posts: 11,425
    It's very hard to debate a topic when the topic itself is totally pointless and an example of grabbing random thoughts from the air, which is what you seem to be doing.

    The Brosnan films came about from a desire for the world to adapt to the changing times which resulted from the collapse of the Cold War. This is why we received films that played on the safer, box checking formula which placed equal emphasis on humour as well action and often attempted to blend the two together to mixed results. The action and the stuntwork is of extremely high quality but action, like many other elements, depends on the strength of its surroundings, and Brosnan's final film (s) suffered immensely from poor storytelling.

    As such, and unfortunately for Brosnan, there would be a second shift in World Affairs in 2001, leaving everyone with an increased appetite for darker, edgier stories involving franchise characters. This change in appetite couldn't have come at a worse time for a film like DAD, and came just in time for something like The Bourne Identity. The Bourne films are ones I have a lot of love for, but they have a massively different approach to its respective character.

    The same way Die Hard films are different to 80's Bond flicks in their utilisation of elements, Damon's Bourne is incomparable to Brosnan's Bond as they are products of a very different time and catered to an audience which wanted something different. The same audiences that would then go on to lap up Nolan's Batman fare and Craig's brooding Bond. This will pass again as all tastes do, and then reappear when timing is right.

    They're incomparable, and as such, your topic is rather empty and pointless.

    Hmmm . I think Bond and Bourne are more comparable than Bond and Die Hard or Bond and Predator.

    Bond and Bourne are a similar if not identical genre.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited November 2014 Posts: 8,218
    Getafix wrote: »
    It's very hard to debate a topic when the topic itself is totally pointless and an example of grabbing random thoughts from the air, which is what you seem to be doing.

    The Brosnan films came about from a desire for the world to adapt to the changing times which resulted from the collapse of the Cold War. This is why we received films that played on the safer, box checking formula which placed equal emphasis on humour as well action and often attempted to blend the two together to mixed results. The action and the stuntwork is of extremely high quality but action, like many other elements, depends on the strength of its surroundings, and Brosnan's final film (s) suffered immensely from poor storytelling.

    As such, and unfortunately for Brosnan, there would be a second shift in World Affairs in 2001, leaving everyone with an increased appetite for darker, edgier stories involving franchise characters. This change in appetite couldn't have come at a worse time for a film like DAD, and came just in time for something like The Bourne Identity. The Bourne films are ones I have a lot of love for, but they have a massively different approach to its respective character.

    The same way Die Hard films are different to 80's Bond flicks in their utilisation of elements, Damon's Bourne is incomparable to Brosnan's Bond as they are products of a very different time and catered to an audience which wanted something different. The same audiences that would then go on to lap up Nolan's Batman fare and Craig's brooding Bond. This will pass again as all tastes do, and then reappear when timing is right.

    They're incomparable, and as such, your topic is rather empty and pointless.

    Hmmm . I think Bond and Bourne are more comparable than Bond and Die Hard or Bond and Predator.

    Bond and Bourne are a similar if not identical genre.

    Not always. Craig's Bond certainly would be, and certain aspects of Dalton maybe. Moore and Brosnan certainly wouldn't though, and the comparison was Brosnan specific.

    Genre, for me, is such a flexible term that it's almost lazy to use it sometimes, I think.
  • Posts: 1,146
    That's why I brought it up. The 80's comparison was vaguely deflected by the notion that Die hard and Predator and Indy are other genres, so then I felt this was too close to deflect.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,218
    That's why I brought it up. The 80's comparison was vaguely deflected by the notion that Die hard and Predator and Indy are other genres, so then I felt this was too close to deflect.

    McTiernan and Spielberg are excellent directors of action, I'll give you that one. Those franchises had fantastic sequences, with the Desert Chase in Raiders being amongst my favourite scenes. That being said, I don't think it really damaged Bond all that much. Bond films still pulled in the punters and made a hell of a lot more money than Die Hard or Predator.

    In fact, of the 80's Bond flicks, I think the tanker chase at the end of LTK could be held up against a lot of the action from the aforementioned films with little to no embarrassment.
  • mcdonbbmcdonbb deep in the Heart of Texas
    Posts: 4,116
    I would lean toward the train sequence in OP. For awhile or at least I remember some critic calling OP Raiders for adults.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2014 Posts: 23,883
    OP definitely capitalized in some way on Raiders popularity, particularly in the jungle sequence and to some extent the train sequence. However, Speilberg cribbed from OP's dinner scene (and far less successfully IMO) in the Temple of Doom.
  • Posts: 1,146
    OP is such a horrible movie that for a while it was available full-length on youtube.

    Comparisons to the Indy films are honestly laughable.

    In the Indy films, the laughs were fun and intentional.
  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    Posts: 5,080
    OP is such a horrible movie that for a while it was available full-length on youtube.
    .

    That's probably the biggest 'WTF' moment we've had from you so far!

    Really, you can find all the Bond films on YouTube if you know where to look ;)
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,718
    The only Brosnan film that is quite bad compared to Bourne is DAD, since it was released in the same year as Bourne Identity. I really can't compare GE-TWINE with Bourne because they came from 2 completly different world and period. Sure there's only 3 years between TWINE and Bourne Identity, but 9/11 happened in between and totally changed the world and the way spy/action movies were made. It's just a shame EON didn't understand it sooner and made DAD much more serious, even with Brosnan still playing Bond. 12 years later it seems Bourne/Jack Bauer understood the new post 9/11 world right away, and Bond was still in his 1990's fun OTT actioner world.
  • bondjames wrote: »
    It's important in this ongoing discussion to consider relevancy vs. financial success.

    It's true that Bond was financially successful in the 80's (although less so on a relative scale to the 60s/70s), but it was no longer all that relevant. It just pulled along with its fan base without really adding to it in any meaningful way, nor did it move the barometer (for whatever you want to call these movies....action....spy....whatever) forward at all. Part of that may have been an ageing Moore who was so affixed to the part by then, part of it might have been a lack of ambition or fear on EON's part (post-Moore with Dalton, although we'll never truly know since we did not see where they were headed after the excellent & brave LTK), part of it might have been the HE-MAN action contemporaries of that time (Arnie/Bruce/Sly) that were making it difficult for Bond to compete on a purely 'action' basis. Who knows.

    Bond also chugged along in the 90s. No one can reasonably look back at that era with too much respect or adulation, regardless of the financial successes. I didn't see too much difference in quality between DAD & TWINE (CGI notwithstanding). They both had overacting, poorly developed henchmen/villains (Bullion/Kill), badly delivered one-liners & ridiculous, machine gun totting 'action' with gadgets all over the place. At least TND was a pastiche (in particular to Moore's TSWLM & MR, as well as Connery's YOLT). Brosnan himself made the point of emphasizing that the movies were getting more financially successful as a selling point when he was publicly having his spat with EON (post DAD when he was hoping to come back) which to me was quite telling in terms of his lack of understanding of what Bond had become under his tenure, namely, a caricature without credibility. Whose fault that was I'll leave to more knowledgeable people, but there is no denying that fact.

    I contend that Bond is culturally relevant again. It has done that by returning 'integrity' to the franchise. It is no longer a caricature. It is credible again. It is adding to the fan base considerably (I dislike pulling rottentomato or boxofficmojo stats, but check how Craig's Bonds have performed relative to the top grossing movies of that year vs. Brosnan and you willl see that new fans are coming into the fold - heck, SF took out TDKR globally for pete's sake).

    I welcome the relevancy. I welcome the credibility. I welcome the integrity. Combined with the financial success. Whoever is responsible for that (Bourne, EON, Bab's, Craig, Nolan), thank you. Welcome back, Mr. Bond. We missed you.

    Touché ;-). Completely agreed here.
  • edited November 2014 Posts: 11,425
    There's a lot of circular and pointless debate here. I don't really understand what @doubleohdad is trying to say. That the Bond films are not objectively the pinnacle of movie making achievement? That there are other films that are better? That Bond has cribbed from, ripped off and followed other films pretty much from the start (FRWL - NBNW)? None of this is news to anyone who knows their Bond history.

    It is a very long time (if ever) frankly since Bond was at the very forefront of creativity in popular entertainment. SF is a huge commercial success but the film cribs and borrows left right and centre, from TDK, from the Bond series itself (TMWTGG), Apocalypse Now, The Third Man, and who knows what else.

  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited November 2014 Posts: 17,804
    To answer the original question, GE was somewhat original, given the givens. It had it both ways: play it safe with a known actor, tick the right boxes, but at the same time give us an unexpected bad guy, and an OTT femme fatale not seen before. Tied into the whole post Cold-War thing and you have the winner.
    TND was a supremely well made formula-chaser with a little twist here & there. I happen to prefer TND by a little bit, but they were both hugely entertaining films. To quote Malcolm McDowall from Blue Thunder, "anyone who tells you different is a damn liar." :))
  • Posts: 1,146
    Sipl
    Getafix wrote: »
    There's a lot of circular and pointless debate here. I don't really understand what @doubleohdad is trying to say. That the Bond films are not objectively the pinnacle of movie making achievement? That there are other films that are better? That Bond has cribbed from, ripped off and followed other films pretty much from the start (FRWL - NBNW)? None of this is news to anyone who knows their Bond history.

    It is a very long time (if ever) frankly since Bond was at the very forefront of creativity in popular entertainment. SF is a huge commercial success but the film cribs and borrows left right and centre, from TDK, from the Bond series itself (TMWTGG), Apocalypse Now, The Third Man, and who knows what else.

    Simply, that some Bond films are better than others, heaping praise and interest when deserved, and scolding when deserved.

    THe franchise is the most successful in film history, but there are highlights and lowlights.
  • Posts: 1,146
    bondjames wrote: »
    OP definitely capitalized in some way on Raiders popularity, particularly in the jungle sequence and to some extent the train sequence. However, Speilberg cribbed from OP's dinner scene (and far less successfully IMO) in the Temple of Doom.

    Yeah. RIght. Spielberg ripped off OP for TOD.

    Thank god he didn't rip off the deadly (YAWN) yo-yo scene.
  • Posts: 1,146
    Um.. they watched their movies and thought they were getting worse, then saw the Bournes and thought they should do that?

    Oh, so Barabara, MGW, and EON sat down and watched the Bourne films and thought "oh, well, our 40 year old, successful franchise is no match for these films", and thus rebooted? LOL, OK then.

    And FYI, some of the crew that had worked on the Bourne films were hired for QOS, which I have said is undoubtedly influenced by the Bourne films.

    No, they wached and said, 'these last three movies are god-awful. Let's do it like that Bourne fellow."

    And you can account for that, can you?

    Interviews, behind the scenes videos etc. say otherwise. Barabara and MGW are proud to have revived the series after the long interval.

    They were proud to keep making millions, mate. C'mon.
  • Posts: 1,146
    OP is such a horrible movie that for a while it was available full-length on youtube.
    .

    That's probably the biggest 'WTF' moment we've had from you so far!

    Really, you can find all the Bond films on YouTube if you know where to look ;)

    That's true, but as of recently you could google octopussy full movie and it would pop right up, tarzan yell and all, lol.

    Yeesh.
  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    Posts: 5,080
    @doubleohdad, if you have something to add to your post, use the edit function. Stop multiple posting.

    Your argument has now gone from the bizarre to the downright absurd. You have not provided any facts or evidence, you have just posted your ill-informed assumptions, your knowledge of the history of the Bond series is questionable, your comments are deliberately provocatative and to be brutally honest, they are the largest amount of drivel I have ever had the misfortune to read on this forum. And yes, that's an insult. I'm tired of beating around the bloody bush.

    Um.. they watched their movies and thought they were getting worse, then saw the Bournes and thought they should do that?

    Oh, so Barabara, MGW, and EON sat down and watched the Bourne films and thought "oh, well, our 40 year old, successful franchise is no match for these films", and thus rebooted? LOL, OK then.

    And FYI, some of the crew that had worked on the Bourne films were hired for QOS, which I have said is undoubtedly influenced by the Bourne films.

    No, they wached and said, 'these last three movies are god-awful. Let's do it like that Bourne fellow."

    And you can account for that, can you?

    Interviews, behind the scenes videos etc. say otherwise. Barabara and MGW are proud to have revived the series after the long interval.

    They were proud to keep making millions, mate. C'mon.

    They were proud to have successfully taken Bond into a new era without Cubby. Brosnan's films, you forget, were also critical successes at the time. You should read The Essential James Bond for more on that.
    OP is such a horrible movie that for a while it was available full-length on youtube.
    .

    That's probably the biggest 'WTF' moment we've had from you so far!

    Really, you can find all the Bond films on YouTube if you know where to look ;)

    That's true, but as of recently you could google octopussy full movie and it would pop right up, tarzan yell and all, lol.

    Yeesh.

    What are you even talking about?
  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    Posts: 7,314
    OP is such a horrible movie that for a while it was available full-length on youtube.

    Comparisons to the Indy films are honestly laughable.

    In the Indy films, the laughs were fun and intentional.
    Comparisons to the Indy films are probably inevitable as Lucas and Spielberg partially based the character on James Bond. It's interesting how Temple of Doom was located in India and featured a grotesque dinner scene just like Octopussy. Let's not forget the beginning of Last Crusade where young Indy is being pursued by the thugs on a circus train. It would seem that the influence of Octopussy is more prevalent then you'd care to admit. You obviously have the final say on humor though so I suppose my opinions on some of the more awkward moments in Indy's history have no basis for criticism. It would seem that there is no stopping you in your quest for excellence in all things Bondian. Please spare us the humiliation of any more grievances upon your divine knowledge.
  • mcdonbbmcdonbb deep in the Heart of Texas
    Posts: 4,116
    The only thing I didn't like about OP was the Tarzan yell and the tennis match sound other than that I liked it...including the yo-yo which was quite clever.

    Indy owes a lot to Bond and really don't appreciate or get that much Bond hate on a Bond fan forum?????
  • Sipl
    Getafix wrote: »
    There's a lot of circular and pointless debate here. I don't really understand what @doubleohdad is trying to say. That the Bond films are not objectively the pinnacle of movie making achievement? That there are other films that are better? That Bond has cribbed from, ripped off and followed other films pretty much from the start (FRWL - NBNW)? None of this is news to anyone who knows their Bond history.

    It is a very long time (if ever) frankly since Bond was at the very forefront of creativity in popular entertainment. SF is a huge commercial success but the film cribs and borrows left right and centre, from TDK, from the Bond series itself (TMWTGG), Apocalypse Now, The Third Man, and who knows what else.

    Simply, that some Bond films are better than others, heaping praise and interest when deserved, and scolding when deserved.

    THe franchise is the most successful in film history, but there are highlights and lowlights.

    Again no news at all.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Sipl
    Getafix wrote: »
    There's a lot of circular and pointless debate here. I don't really understand what @doubleohdad is trying to say. That the Bond films are not objectively the pinnacle of movie making achievement? That there are other films that are better? That Bond has cribbed from, ripped off and followed other films pretty much from the start (FRWL - NBNW)? None of this is news to anyone who knows their Bond history.

    It is a very long time (if ever) frankly since Bond was at the very forefront of creativity in popular entertainment. SF is a huge commercial success but the film cribs and borrows left right and centre, from TDK, from the Bond series itself (TMWTGG), Apocalypse Now, The Third Man, and who knows what else.

    Simply, that some Bond films are better than others, heaping praise and interest when deserved, and scolding when deserved.

    THe franchise is the most successful in film history, but there are highlights and lowlights.

    Wow, thanks for letting us know something we all knew already.

    So all your references to other non-Bond films are completely and utterly irrelevant then?

    Essentially all we're left with is your personal dislike for Roger Moore and Octopussy. A point of view I find more sad than anything else. If you can't appreciate Sir Rog in arguably one of his best performances then I just feel sorry for you TBH .
This discussion has been closed.