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James Bond Movies Are Their Own Genre

chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
in Bond Movies Posts: 17,835
So... this guy named Fleming who'd seen and heard of and been involved in terrible acts of espionage during World War II decided to try and rid himself of his demons by creating a fictional character that would at once exhibit the anguish & pain of his experiences whilst also taking them to a fantasy level where such dark and sinister moments could be the stuff of semi-heroic storytelling.
Then these guys Saltzman & Broccoli seize the day by securing rights to this fellow's novels to make movies...
Then the movies are produced faithful to the novels, then not, then with comedy injected, then action, then spectacle, then reduction to basics, then blends, then dead-seriousness...

Are Bond movies action films? No. With the possibly arguable exception of YOLT, Bond movies have never been just about wowing the audience with one amazing set piece after another.
Are Bonds drama? Hell no, "Little Women" they ain't.
Comedy? Some moments in the Moore era could definitely qualify, but they're the sprinkles on the sundae, not the ice cream.
Satire maybe? MR came closest, but it's still no Flint or Helm.
Spy flick then? While FRWL is the truest 'spy flick' the franchise ever delivered, Bond films rarely concern themselves with actual 'spy stuff' (See: The Constant Gardener).

IMO, 'pulp fiction' or 'adult comic book' might describe the Bond films best. And either is not an actual Film Genre to my knowledge.
Therefore my thread title.

Thoughts?
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Comments

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2014 Posts: 23,883
    I would say they are primarily Action with a secondary categorization of Thriller, or sometimes Adventure. They are not Dramas IMO.

    In a video store (a dying breed) they would most probably be in the Action section. Or the Suspense section, if there is one.

    I don't think they are their own category though, from a labelling standpoint. They should be included in the same video section as the MI series & the Bourne series (both Action Thrillers) or even the Indy series (which veers more to Action Adventure), although all 4 have differences (which two franchises are exactly the same though)?
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited November 2014 Posts: 17,835
    bondjames wrote: »
    They should be included in the same video section as the MI series & the Bourne series or even the Indy series
    MI is a clear copy of Bond (as was U.N.C.L.E. & WW West), Bourne is mainly action (driven, at any rate), & Indy is fantasy-adventure IMHO.

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Bourne has just as much suspense (in many cases more) than certain Bonds. Yes, Indy is Action Adventure, which Bond has been from time to time as well during it's 50 year run.

    They should be included in the same section of the video store. The similarities are closer than the distinctions. And yes, MI copied Bond, but I didn't realize that was what we were discussing.

  • BeatlesSansEarmuffsBeatlesSansEarmuffs
    edited November 2014 Posts: 3,566
    Not that it really matters in the context of this discussion, but in my video store the MI series is shelved under FOREIGN TV, alongside Downton Abbey and Monty Python. AMERICAN TV is a separate shelf, where the Man From U.N.C.L.E. sits alongside The Honeymooners and the Sopranos. Bond movies are indeed shelved in the ACTION/ADVENTURE section (near both Bourne and Indiana Jones.)

    For awhile there in the Sixties, when Bond was indeed inspiring the likes of UNCLE, Flint, and the like...and existing characters like Nick Carter were changing their formats to jump on the Bondwagon...your suggestion might have been a little more on the mark. Nowadays, if only for the sake of marketing, Bond films are considered ACTION/ADVENTURE offerings, even though their subject is obviously the most long lived and successful continuing character ever to appear in that genre.
  • doubleohdaddoubleohdad
    Posts: 1,146
    Sub-genre, under spy films.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,835
    bondjames wrote: »
    Bourne has just as much suspense (in many cases more) than certain Bonds.
    Agreed- Bond is mainly NOT suspense... they are MAINLY an anomalous and eclectic mix of so many genres that I maintain they belong in a genre specific to BOND!
    :)>-
  • doubleohdaddoubleohdad
    Posts: 1,146
    bondjames wrote: »
    Bourne has just as much suspense (in many cases more) than certain Bonds. Yes, Indy is Action Adventure, which Bond has been from time to time as well during it's 50 year run.

    They should be included in the same section of the video store. The similarities are closer than the distinctions. And yes, MI copied Bond, but I didn't realize that was what we were discussing.

    Great, objective, reasonable, non-sycophantic post.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,835
    doubleohdad wrote: »
    non-sycophantic
    As in "non-bootlicking'?
    I'm a fan of Superman, and I like Superman III despite its totally obvious shortcomings. No boot-licking, just fun there.
    I'm a fan of Batman, and I can have fun with Batman & Robin, as some can have fun with Moonraker. I enjoy Indiana Jones IV in the same way.
    YOUR problem is that you don't want to discuss pros & cons, you want to shoot clay pigeons & see who it pisses off. It's all about the conflict, and the winning of an argument to you.
    The real winners here are the folks who enjoy Bond movies.
    'Nuff said.
    :D
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2014 Posts: 23,883
    chrisisall wrote: »
    they are MAINLY an anomalous and eclectic mix of so many genres that I maintain they belong in a genre specific to BOND!
    :)>-

    I agree wholeheartedly that Bond is a mix of several genres. After 50 years, it does draw on many elements from various genres (it's difficult for it not to in that timeframe I guess)...

    I still think Action Adventure or Action Thriller is a broad enough & more reflective overall description to capture all 50 movies than pulp fiction (reminds me too much of the Tarrantino movie) or adult comic book (reminds me too much of Sin City or 300) though. It's difficult to find a term to describe them.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,835
    bondjames wrote: »
    I still think Action Adventure or Action Thriller is a broad enough & more reflective overall description than pulp fiction (reminds me of the Tarrantino movie) or adult comic book (reminds me of Sin City or 300) though.
    Vincent Vega & Nancy Callahan agree with you.
    :))
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,835
    Birdleson wrote: »
    there is, despite the various interpretations, a different set of criteria, and expectations, I take into a Bond film.
    Yes- will it be funny? TOO funny? Intriguing? Full of action? TOO much action? Good quips?
    No movie or TV series ever has had so much variance...
    =D>
  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    Posts: 7,314
    "BeatlesSansEarmuffs wrote:
    Nowadays, if only for the sake of marketing, Bond films are considered ACTION/ADVENTURE offerings, even though their subject is obviously the most long lived and successful continuing character ever to appear in that genre.
    Agreed but it's amazing that Bond is still relevant to this day. How many films from the 60's have been completely forgotten? I am not a fan of the current marketing strategies either but it's incredible to think of the staying power that these films possess.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited November 2014 Posts: 15,723
    Bond movies are action/adventures movies, but there is something that sets them apart from all the other action movies like Raid, Taken, Die Hard, Bourne. It's that Bond has class, sophistication and suaveness in bucket loads. Sure it's fun to see an all bloody Bruce Willis in his white shirt maching gunning everything that moves, but man, I do love that Bond fellow in his classy suit, not dropping a sweat, demolishing badguys, driving a tank, driving a Q-Boat under water or jumping into a train (SF) and taking the time to adjust his tie. Is it realistic? No, it is not, but Bond IMO was never meant to be 100% realistic, Sure CR is much more realistic than say DAD or MR, but it's still firmly set in Bond's own fantasy world. And also, what sets Bond apart from DH, Bourne and Taken, is this little thing called the James Bond Theme, one of the most recognizable theme song in cinematic history, and is there to be played during badass action scenes to make it feel even more badass, fun and epic.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2014 Posts: 23,883
    pachazo wrote: »
    Agreed but it's amazing that Bond is still relevant to this day. How many films from the 60's have been completely forgotten? I am not a fan of the current marketing strategies either but it's incredible to think of the staying power that these films possess.

    I agree with you but I suggest that the two go hand in hand (continued relevancy & inability to pin down the genre).

    Like all great, long lived franchises in any medium, Bond has to continually reinvent & embrace sub-genres to stay relevant. It is that continuous reinvention if you will, within the confines of the franchise's accepted boundaries, that keeps Bond relevant, but it is also what makes it difficult to pin down a specific genre, because it has oscillated between many over the years to retain relevancy.

    Within this long 50 year history, some eras (with certain genre combinations) have been more successful (and have dated better IMO) than others.

    We've been on the serious side of things for a while (my preferred genre), but there is a slight move back to comedy (as evidenced in SF). B24 may go more the action adventure route again (with Bautista in the fold) combined with comedy.
  • GetafixGetafix
    Posts: 11,425
    Action adventure espionage thriller romance.
  • BeatlesSansEarmuffsBeatlesSansEarmuffs
    edited November 2014 Posts: 3,566
    I’d like to issue a correction: a ways up on this discussion, I make a reference to MI that is intended to indicate the TV series known in the US as MI-5, and in England (where it originated) as Spooks. Upon reflection, I recognize that the first poster to use this abbreviation (MI) intended it to refer to the American TV (and later, movie) series Mission Impossible. Oops! My mistake, and my apologies for any confusion.

    I must confess that I never watched much of the original series back in the ‘60s, certainly not during its glory days with Martin Landau and Barbara Bain; the only episodes I did watch at the time were after Leonary Nimoy joined the cast. I’m not sure why, perhaps I was dedicated to watching some other series that was scheduled opposite it in the earlier seasons. I’ve also never watched any of the movies starring Tom Cruise and I have no intention of ever doing so: I have a problem with Tom Cruise that makes @Getafix’s issues with Brosnan as Bond seem trivial by comparison. No more need be said on this particular topic, just take it from me: I have a blind spot concerning Mission Impossible. I may try to rectify this lack of awareness concerning the original TV show, but the movies just aren’t on my radar. Apologies all around…
  • GetafixGetafix
    Posts: 11,425
    Funnily enough I've never had much time for Tom Cruise either, although I do find him a slightly better actor than Brosnan. And I did enjoy Minority Report.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Cruise rubs me the wrong way as well.

    However, I realize I'm being unfair.

    I have not seen Edge of Tomorrow (I sort of thought....oh well here's another Tom Cruise movie) but I've heard it's good. Also I recently caught Knight and Day and that was pretty good mindless fun. Jack Reacher was pretty good too.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,835
    Getafix wrote: »
    I did enjoy Minority Report.
    That movie sucked worse than a Supermassive Black Hole due to the tacked-on Hollywood ending. Spielberg sold out on us with that one big time. War Of The Worlds gave us a similar feel-good ending, but in THAT movie it at least worked a bit better IMO.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited November 2014 Posts: 17,835
    Birdleson wrote: »
    You're surprised?
    It seemed so excellent until the eyes/fridge gag, but then the ending killed it dead IMO.

    Back on topic, James Cameron's True Lies is in the Bond Genre for me. A perfect TSWLM level film, and not a simple spoof. He did his Bondian homework there...
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Agreed. True Lies is a work of art. Better than some Bonds I dare say.

    It is way overdue for a blu ray release.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,835
    bondjames wrote: »
    Agreed. True Lies is a work of art. Better than some Bonds I dare say.
    He berates the horse for NOT making an impossible jump??? Suddenly "Siiit!" makes sense!
    :))
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2014 Posts: 23,883
    I've always felt that Bruce Willis & Arnie (in particular) owed a lot to Roger Moore's Bond portrayal. They really took from his playbook (especially Arnie) with the off-hand quips & one-liners during their run to the top in the late 80's & early 90's.

    Moore's Bond had been the top dog for action/suspense/adventure throughout most of the 70's & into the early 80's (& his playful manner was the staple), so when these two started hitting their stride, they cribbed from the master. Sir Rog.

    A passing of the baton if you will.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,835
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I cannot agree with you guys on TRUE LIES.
    If you love it that's fine; it IS enjoyable. Still, Dalton's movies kick its arse IMHO.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,835
    Birdleson wrote: »
    No, I didn't at all.
    My mistake- so we agree then that Dalton's two kick its arse?

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2014 Posts: 23,883
    re: True Lies - loved it except for the family stuff (i.e. Jamie Lee torture & annoying daughter). The action choreography was excellent, particularly in the previously mentioned horse scene that began in the washroom with Lou Ferrigno (shades of CR pretitles) to the brilliant Harrier scene in the finale.

    There was a lot of Bond genre in that movie. A true tribute. I remember defending GE to a lot of my friends the following year. They felt it couldn't hold a candle to True Lies & I was the lone defender of JB's comeback.
  • GetafixGetafix
    Posts: 11,425
    Birdleson wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    No, I didn't at all.
    My mistake- so we agree then that Dalton's two kick its arse?

    I find LICENCE TO KILL becoming more enjoyable with each viewing (I still don't care for a couple of things), I really got into it this last time.
    Sadly, the opposite is true of THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS. Whereas this used to be in my Top ten, I find myself getting bored with this one. I thoroughly dig the PTS and the scene that was based on the short story, the fight in the kitchen, the balloons, a few other scenes and Dalton's performance, but for most of the second half I am looking at the time counter on the Blu Ray player.

    Hate to admit it but I had a similar feeling last time I watched it.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Didn't they have to change the script of GE as, True Lies used many of
    Their ideas ?
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2014 Posts: 23,883
    DrGorner wrote: »
    Didn't they have to change the script of GE as, True Lies used many of
    Their ideas ?

    I seem to recall reading that somewhere. I know True Lies had a much larger budget than GE, so I'm not sure how realistically GE could have done some of what they did in that movie. It may have been an action scene or two that GE may have contemplated, like the Harrier scene .....I can't remember. Cameron did a magnificent job on the action scenes in True Lies. There's no disputing that. I also always remember fondly the bit when one of Art Malik's thugs is panicking because the battery on his videocam was running out while Malik was making his grand speech. Priceless. Malik was outstanding here (as he was in TLD). Movie needs a blu ray release now! It's only been 20 freaking years

    Regarding the premise of this thread: I think Bonds are in a small unique subcategory, but I don't think they are alone. As I said previously I wouldn't go so far as to argue that they deserve their own genre. The way I see it......they are the undisputed top dog (because they invented it, have done it the best, are the most respected & because they've been at it the longest) in the ''globe trotting Action Adventure Thriller'' genre that includes numerous imitators like MI, Indy & to a lesser extent, Bourne (only due to the CIA/thriller/globe trotting element but without glamour/romance). Even Nolan's Batman films have cribbed from Bond (the globe trotting to Hong Kong in TDK, definitely the opening plane sequence in TDKR, along with Lucius Fox's Q rip off).

    Fundamentally, there has to be a travelogue & glamour aspect to it combined with the other elements and fantastic stuntwork (hence Die Hard, Lethal Weapon etc. don't qualify in the same genre).

    Accept no substitutes.
  • doubleohdaddoubleohdad
    Posts: 1,146
    bondjames wrote: »
    Agreed. True Lies is a work of art. Better than some Bonds I dare say.

    It is way overdue for a blu ray release.

    There's some big-boy actions sequences in this film that are clearly better than the majority of Bond films. Some uneven, strange storytelling otherwise, but man the action is cool here.
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