"Yes...Considerably" - Casino Royale Appreciation & Discussion.

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Comments

  • BondAficionadoBondAficionado Former IMDBer
    Posts: 1,889
    bondjames wrote: »
    A very good film, but not one which I revisit frequently, due to the romance post-ball whacker, and due to the downer ending.

    OHMSS had a downer ending as well, but they achieved genuine poignancy with that film. CR doesn't even attempt it. I don't know how many tonal shifts they try and pack into that last 20 minutes, but it doesn't work.

    Tonal shifts?! Please enlighten me, @Mendes4Lyfe .

    We go from relief that the day is saved, luvy montage, exciting action sequence, tragedy, and then back too fist pumping at the end. I make that 5 turns on a dime in the space of about 20 minutes.

    First of all, I don't think all that happens in the last 20 minutes. I feel what you described lasts 30mins at least, making it easier for there to be tonal shifts because you're taking about many more scenes...

    But let's say that it all does happen in the last 20mins; it's pretty much Bond and Vesper making love and going on about their shared future. That continues until he receives a call from M, but afterwards he's still acting out of love, if you think about it. Also, how are action sequences and tragedy not in the same box? The two go hand in hand and the very fact that it's 'tragedy' only proves that the film is still holding on to Bond's affection for her and projecting it back towards the audience. Furthermore, once you've seen the film, the last scenes evoke suspense because you know she's going to her death. There's also a refreshing amount of suspense when Bond is following her and during the action scene, in case you missed it. Even when we witness Mr. White answering his phone we can feel it. So the ending certainly doesn't shift as much as you say it does.
  • Posts: 7,430
    That final scene with Bond theme slowly building and Craigs delivery of THAT line made me leave cinema on such a high.It still gives me goosebumps. Tremendous 007 movie. Only bettered by OHMSS and Daltons 2!
  • Posts: 142
    CR and the rest of the DC series has been a refreshing and exciting era for the Bond films. The overwhelming amount of controversy generated by these recent movies serves to illustrate that point. Of course a lot of this is simply do to the internet and the fact that people can log onto a forum from their home, the office, in a car or while waiting in the airport boarding lounge, and offer their crenellated opinion, defending their view point, until only the crumbling ramparts survive the critical onslaught from other fans. As a few here know, I’m a big fan of the DC series and CR was a tremendous way to launch into a new idea. Film and literature are different mediums and one need not mimic the other in order for the story to be told. The evolution of Vesper from the original literature to the movie screen is a good example as her character would have been lost and the film much weaker had she not been developed into a strong supporting character for Bond. It has been presented as an argument in these forums that SF or SP will be minimized or forgotten as time passes, but given the fact that they are a part of the James Bond legacy it’s a moot point in the real world. Later generations will view the films differently than current critics, as has been the case with Sean Connery, George Lazenby, Roger Moore, Timothy Dalton, and Pierce Brosnan. Each actor has brought his own personality to the role, and all of them in their own way give a shape and a form to the public’s image of Bond. It’s James Bond the character, rather than who plays the part that draws fans back film after film. CR stands out as something of a benchmark, signifying a sea change in defining the character, as well as being an excellent action adventure film with all the best parts of what Bond fans like.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,399
    bondjames wrote: »
    A very good film, but not one which I revisit frequently, due to the romance post-ball whacker, and due to the downer ending.

    OHMSS had a downer ending as well, but they achieved genuine poignancy with that film. CR doesn't even attempt it. I don't know how many tonal shifts they try and pack into that last 20 minutes, but it doesn't work.

    Tonal shifts?! Please enlighten me, @Mendes4Lyfe .

    We go from relief that the day is saved, luvy montage, exciting action sequence, tragedy, and then back too fist pumping at the end. I make that 5 turns on a dime in the space of about 20 minutes.

    First of all, I don't think all that happens in the last 20 minutes. I feel what you described lasts 30mins at least, making it easier for there to be tonal shifts because you're taking about many more scenes...

    But let's say that it all does happen in the last 20mins; it's pretty much Bond and Vesper making love and going on about their shared future. That continues until he receives a call from M, but afterwards he's still acting out of love, if you think about it. Also, how are action sequences and tragedy not in the same box? The two go hand in hand and the very fact that it's 'tragedy' only proves that the film is still holding on to Bond's affection for her and projecting it back towards the audience. Furthermore, once you've seen the film, the last scenes evoke suspense because you know she's going to her death. There's also a refreshing amount of suspense when Bond is following her and during the action scene, in case you missed it. Even when we witness Mr. White answering his phone we can feel it. So the ending certainly doesn't shift as much as you say it does.

    So you'd put Vesper drowning herself under "exciting"? To me, you aren't supposed to feel excited at that point.
  • BondAficionadoBondAficionado Former IMDBer
    Posts: 1,889
    bondjames wrote: »
    A very good film, but not one which I revisit frequently, due to the romance post-ball whacker, and due to the downer ending.

    OHMSS had a downer ending as well, but they achieved genuine poignancy with that film. CR doesn't even attempt it. I don't know how many tonal shifts they try and pack into that last 20 minutes, but it doesn't work.

    Tonal shifts?! Please enlighten me, @Mendes4Lyfe .

    We go from relief that the day is saved, luvy montage, exciting action sequence, tragedy, and then back too fist pumping at the end. I make that 5 turns on a dime in the space of about 20 minutes.

    First of all, I don't think all that happens in the last 20 minutes. I feel what you described lasts 30mins at least, making it easier for there to be tonal shifts because you're taking about many more scenes...

    But let's say that it all does happen in the last 20mins; it's pretty much Bond and Vesper making love and going on about their shared future. That continues until he receives a call from M, but afterwards he's still acting out of love, if you think about it. Also, how are action sequences and tragedy not in the same box? The two go hand in hand and the very fact that it's 'tragedy' only proves that the film is still holding on to Bond's affection for her and projecting it back towards the audience. Furthermore, once you've seen the film, the last scenes evoke suspense because you know she's going to her death. There's also a refreshing amount of suspense when Bond is following her and during the action scene, in case you missed it. Even when we witness Mr. White answering his phone we can feel it. So the ending certainly doesn't shift as much as you say it does.

    So you'd put Vesper drowning herself under "exciting"? To me, you aren't supposed to feel excited at that point.

    That's a rhetorical question because it goes without saying that the whole sequence -
    from "I'll kill her" until White walks off - is exciting (even as far back as M's sms). Just because the music drops the BPM and we get an emotional/quiet last moment between them, doesn't mean that it isn't exciting. My heart is still exploding out of my chest at this point.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    bondjames wrote: »
    A very good film, but not one which I revisit frequently, due to the romance post-ball whacker, and due to the downer ending.

    OHMSS had a downer ending as well, but they achieved genuine poignancy with that film. CR doesn't even attempt it. I don't know how many tonal shifts they try and pack into that last 20 minutes, but it doesn't work.

    Tonal shifts?! Please enlighten me, @Mendes4Lyfe .

    We go from relief that the day is saved, luvy montage, exciting action sequence, tragedy, and then back too fist pumping at the end. I make that 5 turns on a dime in the space of about 20 minutes.

    First of all, I don't think all that happens in the last 20 minutes. I feel what you described lasts 30mins at least, making it easier for there to be tonal shifts because you're taking about many more scenes...

    But let's say that it all does happen in the last 20mins; it's pretty much Bond and Vesper making love and going on about their shared future. That continues until he receives a call from M, but afterwards he's still acting out of love, if you think about it. Also, how are action sequences and tragedy not in the same box? The two go hand in hand and the very fact that it's 'tragedy' only proves that the film is still holding on to Bond's affection for her and projecting it back towards the audience. Furthermore, once you've seen the film, the last scenes evoke suspense because you know she's going to her death. There's also a refreshing amount of suspense when Bond is following her and during the action scene, in case you missed it. Even when we witness Mr. White answering his phone we can feel it. So the ending certainly doesn't shift as much as you say it does.

    So you'd put Vesper drowning herself under "exciting"? To me, you aren't supposed to feel excited at that point.

    You do realize that one scene in a movie can be directed to give you two different feelings, right? Just because I laugh and smile as Bond and Tracy swap banter and am moved to tears when she dies moments later doesn't mean the scene is a tonal mess. It's telling a story, as CR balances pulse-pounding visuals with tragedy. From Vesper's death on, we know we're seeing a tragedy unfold. I'd happily debate these points about tonality if I understood what you are going on about.
  • Posts: 1,314
    bondjames wrote: »
    A very good film, but not one which I revisit frequently, due to the romance post-ball whacker, and due to the downer ending.

    OHMSS had a downer ending as well, but they achieved genuine poignancy with that film. CR doesn't even attempt it. I don't know how many tonal shifts they try and pack into that last 20 minutes, but it doesn't work.

    Tonal shifts?! Please enlighten me, @Mendes4Lyfe .

    We go from relief that the day is saved, luvy montage, exciting action sequence, tragedy, and then back too fist pumping at the end. I make that 5 turns on a dime in the space of about 20 minutes.

    I more or less agree not tonal shift but there's a shift in pacing. We've just had an hour of the tautest, most thrilling bondian cinema, then its slow, quick, slow, quick for the remainder.

    However, as other have said the thrill of hearing that line at the end was great.

    What did you all enjoy more - that or the end of skyfall ?
  • peterpeter Toronto
    edited June 2017 Posts: 9,509
    The end of CR, although my breath was slightly taken aback when we saw THAT office again in SF
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    CR. No comparison.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    CR has the best ending in the whole series.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    CR has the best ending in the whole series.

    Indeed.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    I prefer the end of SF, if only because I have a lot more fun with the preceding 30 or so minutes of the film.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    edited June 2017 Posts: 8,399
    You mean last scene? Maybe you're right. In isolation there are lot's of good scenes, but what matters is how it comes together. The parkour chase was a very good on it's own, it just didn't belong in this film. It reminds me too much of the podrace from Episode 1.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    You mean last scene? Maybe you're right. In isolation there are lot's of good scenes, but what matters is how it comes together. The parkour chase was a very good on it's own, it just didn't belong in this film. It reminds me too much of the podrace from Episode 1.

    I'm certainly not going to complain about the Madagascar chase. It's the thing that makes CR the best opening of the series for me and the first time I watched it I knew something special was coming. It's also amazing how an action set piece was used to build up Bond's character without any dialogue, simply by showing how he reacted to Mollaka and gave chase. The crew knew what they were doing.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    CR has the best ending in the whole series.

    Quite.
  • BMW_with_missilesBMW_with_missiles All the usual refinements.
    Posts: 3,000
    Though it may sound contradictory to what I've been saying, I really like the end scene of CR. I wish that a few things in the story had been tied up a little more neatly by that point, but that scene is nothing short of awesome.
  • Posts: 1,917
    CR's ending, no question. SF's does nothing for me.

    As for the so-called tonal shifts, isn't going from one feeling to another part of good cinema? Beats the predictability of Bond defeating bad guy and clinch with the girl at the end of so many of its predecessors.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    Always loved the final part of CR, the sinking house is much better than the Miami sequence, one of the only blips on the film that and one of Arnold's cues in that very sequence.

    Also the obvious cringe worthy snatches of dialogue after that I've no problem with it.

    The sinking house sequence is utterly thrilling and something like what was in the book would never have been used in the film that is supposed to be re-launching the series.

    Also you get that delicious sign off with Craig finally saying the line, Bond getting his man and finally his JB theme.

    As much as I love the ending of SF, CR is king, I also enjoy the end of QOS, it's only the terrible ending of SPECTRE that lets that era's climaxes down.
  • Posts: 142
    Probably the worst thing about any Bond film is when the director comes up with a really great scene. The problem being, fans expect something bigger and better in the next film. The sinking villa in CR is one of those great moments.
  • edited October 2023 Posts: 116
    Watching this scene recently- in the car and in the hotel lobby. It struck me, probably eyes playing a trick on me, but Daniel Craig looks different to the other scenes, like he's carrying a bit of weight and is a bit shiny, compared to the rest of the film.

    I'm presuming it's just the way it was shot rather than a reshoot? Or I'm just going blind!

    Post merged with this thread.
  • The Mr Beech scenes I should say.
  • Posts: 7,430
    I watched Casino Royale today, and yes, from the first time I watched the film back in 2006, I noticed Craig doesn't look as good in that scene. Think his hairstyle might be different too, but yes, he looks very different from the train sequence just before ! Think its just the way its shot, but maybe someone can throw some light on it (sic!)
  • Glad I'm not the only one who has had this thought.
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