SPECTRE Leaks Discussion (allowed on ONLY this thread) MAJOR PLOTLINE SPOILERS!

1106107109111112

Comments

  • SirHilaryBraySirHilaryBray Scotland
    Posts: 2,138
    ONE MORE SLEEP EeeeK! <:-P
  • edited October 2015 Posts: 4,622
    antovolk wrote: »
    dire399 wrote: »
    mcdonbb wrote: »
    @pjv ..White is in SP.

    a pity that they only used White and other villains as link up, without a slight mention of Quantum and its relation with Spectre, the arc seems incomplete.

    For what it's worth - Purvis and Wade confirmed in Empire magazine that Quantum is SPECTRE's South American operation.

    That's rather precious. Until SP the film came along, Quantum had every appearance of being international in scale, not a regional division of something else ie a new Spectre.
    This is the problem when you make stuff up as you go along. ie the notion of Spectre hadn't even beenconceived until after the first 3 films were done.
    Eon is trying to reverse engineer continuity with the previous three films.
    Quantum had a Canadian operation running, revealed in QoS, involving the same guy who was scamming Vesper at Royale ( Youssef) Seems rather international to me, not SA focused.

    @Timmer: Supposedly Mathis isn't his real name, but a code name (that seems more or less certain). It may be he really was a double agent, but that part of the dialogue is a little fuzzy. Even if he wasn't, Mathis was never killed off in the novels and he was never "sweated."
    I agree with you, re: Blofeld, Hannes Oberhauser. It's crossing the line even more than the Mathis example.
    @alexanderwaverly Yes Bond asks Mathis if that was even his real name during the dumpster discussion. What actually prompted him to ask that question is never actually revealed, I don't think.

    Sure, Eon took liberties with Mathis as they have with Leiter too. Maybe as these guys weren't story specific, they figured they could use them as they saw fit in the films, eg Felix.
    In the Fleming books, I think Mathis only figures in CR and FRWL. Killing him I think was an overreach, but not real grevious as he was relatively minor character in the Fleming canon. But still I didn't like it. Good rule I think, is if Fleming didn't kill a character, Eon or continuation authors need not kill them either.

    What grates about the Hannes/Ernst relationship, is that it is so out of left field.
    With other characters Eon is really only guilty of altering the character somewhat (Dikko, Krest) or expanding on them, but not so much radically connecting one character with another character from a different book.
    Next we'll find that Pussy Galore and Domino are actually estranged siblings, or that Irma Bunt and Klebb are actually ugly half-sisters ( that I could believe actually).

    Go nuts. Darko Kerim and Tiger Tanaka were frat brothers. MP is actually first cousin to, I don't know, let's say Gala Brand.....just for fun.
  • edited October 2015 Posts: 250
    timmer wrote: »
    That's rather precious. Until SP the film came along, Quantum had every appearance of being international in scale, not a regional division of something else ie a new Spectre.
    This is the problem when you make stuff up as you go along. ie the notion of Spectre hadn't even beenconceived until after the first 3 films were done.
    Eon is trying to reverse engineer continuity with the previous three films.

    Yeah... what's wrong with that? In CR they had alluded to a bigger organisation, they had an obligation to explore that a bit further but in '08 they didn't have Blofeld and SPECTRE - if they did it would've been Octopus rings at the Opera and not Q pins.

    SPECTRE is something EON have been wanting to use for a long time, and I suspect for Wilson it's been irksome ever since the original concept for TSWLM was scotched by McClory. This is called a retcon - it's a bit like Garry Shandling's inclusion in The Winter Soldier or even a lot of what George Lucas did with the Star Wars saga (Darth Vader originally only wore a suit because Ralph McQuarrie quaintly observed that he had to jump from ship-to-ship at the opening of the film, not because he's Luke's daddy and he's burned up).

    You use what you can based on the materials themselves, and there's nothing that prevents you from treating Quantum as Greene's retinue, with White and Haines and Mitchell et al being SPECTRE operatives. Not unlike MI6 being MI6 and having a Double O section. If anything it enriches the muddled QoS, and furthermore by making Silva an operative it makes his omnipotence perhaps easier to stomach for those who were hung up on that kind of thing.
    timmer wrote: »
    Good rule I think, is if Fleming didn't kill a character, Eon or continuation authors need not kill them either.

    So, Peter Franks?
  • Posts: 486
    I'm fine with Quantum just being a subdivision of SPECTRE given what a quantum is.

    I also don't have a problem with them trying to pull all the four Craig films together either. It's taken EON 44 years to use SPECTRE again so why not infer they've been a part of Craig's Bond all along.
  • timmer wrote: »

    What grates about the Hannes/Ernst relationship, is that it is so out of left field.

    It's essentially what the rebooted Hawaii Five-0 (Five-O) did with McGarrett and Wo Fat. In the new version there's a "personal" connection.

    https://hmssweblog.wordpress.com/2014/11/27/case-study-rebooting-an-arch-foe-non-007-spoiler/


  • They can have Mathis Jr come back. Remember Quarrel :)



  • Posts: 4,622
    They can have Mathis Jr come back. Remember Quarrel :)



    :) He grew up real fast. More like Quarrel Sr. Only 11years. Rog had to fetch his own shoes though.

    @4dot OK I can roll with the retcon.
    For the record, prefer that Mathis was not killed, but as we learned at dumpster reveal, maybe that wasn't really Mathis. Does Mathis even really exist? hmmm
    Don't care that Peter Franks was killed. Otherwise we never would have got "You just killed James Bond!"
    Do care that Ernst is Hannes patricidal son. Re-boot Ernst clearly spent too much time watching DAD. Made him mad and prone to Pappy killing.

    Wonder if Dexter Smythe in re-boot universe is now clear of conscience, with no long ago murder hanging over his head?So many questions.
  • Posts: 725
    Pappy killing. ROTFL. I just know it is what I will blurt out when I see SP and that scene comes up.

  • Spectre is a PROPER 'Bond film'. In the best and worst use of the term.

    It has great action, wit, it's sexy and glamorous and the fights are brutal. But it also inherits some of the less admirable traits from the series; dodgy dialogue, a slightly camp tone, a poorly thought-through plot and weak character developments.

    That is what I wanted to hear. I couldn't give any less of a damn if it has "an emotional core" or if it's "true to Fleming." I love Bond for the gadgets, the girls, the one liners and the adventure. Seems to have all of these things. As well as a white cat and a gunbarrel at the start. This will be my favorite Craig film without a doubt. But I would still take Roger Moore over him any day.
  • @zorinindustries: You had me until the last line! But hey, to each his own. :) Enjoy the film!
  • Posts: 3,164
    Big analysis/stream of thoughts.

    So yeah - seems like a lot was cut down for time from the first half of the film. Which is a real shame and it shows in the first half especially. Stuff just moves on swiftly before it lands. Too streamlined A lot of touches sorely missed - the cameras gag with C and the lack of "Spooky" in the Rome chase is just the start, it felt sterile in the final film and it could've really improved it. There are other smaller bits that were changed for the worse but another big one is the whole dinner scene on the train is cut too short.....the whole "have you ever been in love" exchange will be sorely missed and really would've helped build Bond/Madeleine's relationship.

    Madeleine - she's been made excessively polarising - one minute she's like "I'll kill you if you touch me" and 10 minutes later she says the three words. The Morocco hotel sequence in the final version is a bit ugh. That whole thing with Bond doing the complete opposite of what he usually does with Bond girls and Madeleine being drunk-surprised "why the f isn't he kissing me?" was a really nice touch and again, would've helped the relationship. Then the whole "I love you bit" at the SPECTRE base. Which brings me on to:

    SPECTRE base and Blofeld reveal - Jesus - ok the torture scene was super great but it screwed everything up. Not only was the Blofeld name reveal is a bit cheesy anti-climax (in the December script it was an epic "oh-bloody-snap" moment from Bond, but then it left a plot hole), the whole "I love you" bit was just WHAT. Also I don't like how they made the whole scene with Blofeld showing Madeleine and Bond round the base about Madeleine and Bond. I would've much preferred what they had in the script with the cause-effect and blackmail demonstration, that was perfect, and how he eventually brought in M and Vesper, and then Mr White. The 'turn that off' bit in the final film was awesome though. And the white cat is welcome.

    No complaints on third act changes, in fact it was damn strong. Although I missed some of the stuff on Westminster Bridge but that's probably a minor thing. It's literally in the final film just Bond about to kill Blofeld with the latter urging him to "finish it" and then Bond's like "I'm out of bullets". Then M does the arrest.

    Also they cut the "we have all the time in the world" final line.

    So yeah......most changes from December script, with the exception of Act 3 and the torture scene (ignoring the implications of said torture scene) are for the worse IMHO. Funny how I do all this with bloody Bond and not Hunger Games
  • edited October 2015 Posts: 486
    I didn't find the Blofield reveal cheesy at all but then again I never read any leaked script and can only base my judgement on the version EON wanted me to see!
  • Posts: 1,068
    Cowley wrote: »
    I didn't find the Blofield reveal cheesy at all but then again I never read any leaked script and can only base my judgement on the version EON wanted me to see!

    I thought Waltz was excellent and nothing cheesy even that damned persian

  • Posts: 486
    andmcit wrote: »
    Cowley wrote: »
    I didn't find the Blofield reveal cheesy at all but then again I never read any leaked script and can only base my judgement on the version EON wanted me to see!

    I thought Waltz was excellent and nothing cheesy even that damned persian

    Indeed. Silva was cheesy and OTT. Waltz pitched it just right for me. This is a villain that was in complete control of Bond's life, the author of his pain and Waltz played it accordingly.

    I actually thought it was a great moment when the ESB was mentioned.
  • Posts: 3,164
    Don't think it's as much cheesy (actually on reflection, it isn't) but anti climatic.
  • Posts: 1,068
    Bond's retort to ESB was a nice put down and actually what any real person would be likely to say without knowledge of Bond
  • Posts: 486
    I wish we had more of Waltz on reflection. Here's hoping this isn't the last we've seen of him.
  • Posts: 1,068
    I agree - he has a quiet menace. It's set up for the next one really. We have to have the disfigurement explained in DC's timeline and DC's last BOND will have to be "ESB"
  • DCisaredDCisared Liverpool
    Posts: 1,329
    The train fight is absolutely incredible
  • Posts: 1
    Can some please clarify about Blofeld for me? So as I understand he is from the older films, but starting from CR the "new cannon" begins? His motivation to ruin 007s life is just based off of his father adopting him? And what exactly did he reveal in the scene in the information centre, something along the lines of him ruining JBs past and being behind the bad guys from the last 3 films? Thanks for any help
  • Posts: 3,164
    I think I need to watch this again because I had the script far too much in the back of my head last night. Sorta like when all the Hunger Games fans would have their respective books.....
  • Posts: 4,622
    Yes @antovolk, it does.seem we will have to make adjustments from the Dec script.
    I'm guessing they took out the Louis Armstrong line so as not to box themselves in for potential sequel direction
    But the fact that the line was even considered, shows that the OHMSS ending direction has been very much in play, and is probably still very much on the table.
    I think Shatterhand and Castle of Death, Bond vs Blofeld revenge scenario, is still very possible.
  • Posts: 157
    Look for Shatterhand on Youtube. It has been adapted as a modest and fun fan production - with Castle Of Death et al and with bits of Octopussy for good measure.
  • Posts: 9,847
    andmcit wrote: »
    I agree - he has a quiet menace. It's set up for the next one really. We have to have the disfigurement explained in DC's timeline and DC's last BOND will have to be "ESB"

    I don't know how I feel if Bond 25 was titled Blofield or Ernst Stavro Blofeld etc. I wouldn't hate it but I am a little tired of the one word titles.
    Cowley wrote: »
    I'm fine with Quantum just being a subdivision of SPECTRE given what a quantum is.

    I also don't have a problem with them trying to pull all the four Craig films together either. It's taken EON 44 years to use SPECTRE again so why not infer they've been a part of Craig's Bond all along.

    For me or at least how I view it Oberhauser/Blofield organization was Quantum but after M and Bond discovered the name they changed it to spectre. Why even in the interview process White point out how MI6 has no idea they even exist after the Opera House they know the name of the organization and several key members so White and Blofield essentially reorganize.

    timmer wrote: »
    What I find offputting is that in the Fleming canon, Dexter Smythe murdered Oberhauser. This is the OP story. Why screw with it. Very odd decision to suddenly decide, that in
    re-boot-movie-world, Blofeld is Oberhauser's son who murdered daddy. Wonder whose brainchild idea this was?
    Even OP movie (which obliquely referenced Dexter Smythe and the killing of Oberhauser) only expanded on the canon by having OP be Smythe's daughter. It didn't change anything, but this SP plot development completely rewrites the Fleming story.
    Why trample on the Fleming canon?

    I am not really bothered that the final film version has changed so much from the Dec script, that we all digested and memorized, although, as others have mentioned, I too had become strangely invested in it.
    Memory of the December script I think will fade, and the final version will become entrenched.
    Key to acceptance is how well the movie holds up as both entertainment and as a smart Bond film.
    Personally I think it will hold up fine. I am just leery about how the Blofeld as Oberhauser's son angle is handled. Right now I am leaning towards it being one of the dumbest adaptations of Fleming material ever.
    And what is so offputting about dm's assertions is that he is absolutely convinced that there is something in the story that assures that DC absolutely no way, can return as Bond.
    What boggles it that he can't understand that this is only the opinion of individuals who might have known, or even do know the finished story.
    Well, we do pretty much know the finished story. We are being filled in on this thread, and still there is nothing that remotely says Craig can't return.
    That, someone has an opinion of what some info might mean, is only something to consider and kick about, not a hard revelation.
    Dm had nothing to tell us then and still doesn't. No sources, no credentials,no track record, no nothing. Just a lot of I want attention.
    Anyway, I only brought it up because I think the final version as being revealed does leave way more wiggle room for directon of a possible sequel and certainly does allow that Craig can return.
    The Dec version seemed to be leaning towards an OHMSS ending, followed by Shatterhand/YOLT story. It could still go in that direction, but ending doesn't seem to point so directly anymore.
    All will become clearer when film actually viewed.
    I won't get access to movie until Nov 6 opening.
    I hope those who see it before that date, can fully reveal all plot details on this thread. :)


    The issue I have is if they kept it close to Fleming Franz still works and Could be set up as much more interesting character.

    If in stead of Franz killing Daddy and taking his mother's name because eh liked Bond better we have Dexter Smythe Killing Oberhauser and Franz Blaming Bond, saying men like him and Dexter are of the same cloth and during the torture scene Bond retorts that Hans was an adventurer too and Causes Franz to go through a sort of an identity crisis and then taking his Mother's named of Blofeld it makes for a more interesting dynamic and read far better then the sort of fan fiction we apparently got.

    Again I haven't seen the film but based on everything surrounding it I feel like this might be third in terms of the Craig era and low top 10 in terms of Bond period.
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    Buncie wrote: »
    Can some please clarify about Blofeld for me? So as I understand he is from the older films, but starting from CR the "new cannon" begins? His motivation to ruin 007s life is just based off of his father adopting him? And what exactly did he reveal in the scene in the information centre, something along the lines of him ruining JBs past and being behind the bad guys from the last 3 films? Thanks for any help

    It's not just based off of Blofeld being pissed Bond had a close relationship with his father. Blofeld explains that Bond was interfering with SP's activities and as such, Blofeld being the head took it personally and wanted to destroy Bond.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,585
    In the trailers, when Bond is walking down the hall, a woman turns around and watches him. This appears to be the same woman seated at a SPECTRE meeting. I believe it is Dr. Vogel. For those who have seen the film, is this the same woman? Is Vogel a mole of some kind at MI6?
  • RC7RC7
    edited October 2015 Posts: 10,512
    doubleoego wrote: »
    Buncie wrote: »
    Can some please clarify about Blofeld for me? So as I understand he is from the older films, but starting from CR the "new cannon" begins? His motivation to ruin 007s life is just based off of his father adopting him? And what exactly did he reveal in the scene in the information centre, something along the lines of him ruining JBs past and being behind the bad guys from the last 3 films? Thanks for any help

    It's not just based off of Blofeld being pissed Bond had a close relationship with his father. Blofeld explains that Bond was interfering with SP's activities and as such, Blofeld being the head took it personally and wanted to destroy Bond.

    Precisely. SPECTRE is in operation irregardless of Bond's activities, it just so happens that Bond has become a thorn in their side over the last few films and ESB has used it as a morbid excuse to destroy Bond psychologically and physically. This isn't the main thrust of SPECTRE's operations (as evidenced in the meeting, where they outline various other nefarious operations), but it is something ESB has intermittently concerned himself with, culminating in the events of SP. It's made quite clear with effective use of dialogue, neither is it rammed home in unnecessary detail, or unexplained, another reason I prefer it to SF. I find the thrust of the movie and various subplots quite clear.

  • TripAces wrote: »
    In the trailers, when Bond is walking down the hall, a woman turns around and watches him. This appears to be the same woman seated at a SPECTRE meeting. I believe it is Dr. Vogel. For those who have seen the film, is this the same woman? Is Vogel a mole of some kind at MI6?

    Interestingly, this was deleted from the film. After the MTS, the film opens with Bond’s briefing with M.

    There are a few changes from the trailer:

    -Moneypenny and Bond in his flat is entirely reshot for the final film. Instead of handing the Skyfall file to him in his apartment it takes place in a courtyard. In the trailer the scene seems quite ominous, in the final film it’s quite jocular.
    -Bond tenderly holding Swan’s face as he kisses her on the train is cut. The scene plays out in a long shot.
    -Waltz’s delivery of ‘Welcome James’


    That’s it, I think…

  • Posts: 832
    Well bond viewing m's video is still there?
  • Posts: 387
    I think the torture scene is a reshoot. Bond has no sequels from it for the rest of the film.
    Agree they cut out the heart of the film in the first hour, and destroyed the train dialog scene and all the resonance to CR. It's a shame, really. If they wanted to make a Nolan film, why not go all the way and make it a LONG film? It doesn't detract Nolan, or Cameron, from box office receipts. We need a director's cut on DVD.
Sign In or Register to comment.