SPECTRE Leaks Discussion (allowed on ONLY this thread) MAJOR PLOTLINE SPOILERS!

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  • Posts: 3,164
    Shardlake wrote: »
    The new outline I read said that C was found to be in league with Oberhauser and in light of this MI6 is reinstated and M, Q & MP get there jobs back and Bond and Swann go on a vacation.

    That's just a fan-made summary of the 9-page shooting outline.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited December 2014 Posts: 23,883
    I'm a bit concerned by the open ended ending. Bond with Madeline in B25 will not work and will not happen. Therefore the only option is Madeline dies in B25 - likely in the pretitles. That, to me, is too much like Bourne. Anyway, hope I'm mistaken in my concerns.

    I agree that Bond without M, Q, & MP is an interesting concept for B25. Shades of LTK?...
  • Posts: 4,619
    bondjames wrote: »
    I'm a bit concerned by the open ended ending. Bond with Madeline in B25 will not work and will not happen. Therefore the only option is Madeline dies in B25 - likely in the pretitles. That, to me, is too much like Bourne. Anyway, hope I'm mistaken in my concerns.

    I agree that Bond without M, Q, & MP is an interesting concept. Shades of LTK?...
    Wouldn't the death of Madeline in Bond 25 completely undermine the theme of Spectre? Maybe this really is the last Bond film with Craig after all. Don't forget that they initially wanted this story to end with Bond 25 but Mendes said no to that. Who knows? Maybe they are already in serious talks with Nolan, who could have plans to take the fanchise into a completely different direction with a new actor with Bond 25...

    Or (and this is a crazy idea), what if they've already planned to do something completely unusual with Craig? One last movie with him, which is a not even a "Bond film" but more like a "film featuring Bond"? Perhaps a romantic drama with Bond and Madeleine? :) I'm sure most fans would not be ready for something that radical...
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited December 2014 Posts: 23,883
    bondjames wrote: »
    I'm a bit concerned by the open ended ending. Bond with Madeline in B25 will not work and will not happen. Therefore the only option is Madeline dies in B25 - likely in the pretitles. That, to me, is too much like Bourne. Anyway, hope I'm mistaken in my concerns.

    I agree that Bond without M, Q, & MP is an interesting concept. Shades of LTK?...
    Wouldn't the death of Madeline in Bond 25 completely undermine the theme of Spectre? Maybe this really is the last Bond film with Craig after all. Don't forget that they initially wanted this story to end with Bond 25 but Mendes said no to that. Who knows? Maybe they are already in serious talks with Nolan, who could have plans to take the fanchise into a completely different direction with a new actor with Bond 25...

    Or (and this is a crazy idea), what if they've already planned to do something completely unusual with Craig? One last movie with him, which is a not even a "Bond film" but more like a "film featuring Bond"? Perhaps a romantic drama with Bond and Madeleine? :) I'm sure most fans would not be ready for something that radical...Gosh, I certainly hope not! That would be pushing it a bit IMO. It does seem, if Bond leaves with Madeline at the end of SPECTRE, that they will either have to drop Craig for B25 or find a way to finish her story in the early part of B25. I'm sure they know this too, so they must already have something planned for B25, whether it be a new actor or some way to complete her arc with Craig. I agree it undermines the theme of SPECTRE to have something happen to her in B25 (if it stars Craig), but it will also reinforce the central issue of being a spy (i.e. no attachments & no life as it makes you vulnerable).

    Comments in the spoiler tag.

  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    edited December 2014 Posts: 11,139
    and Madeline made a point of telling him before that she wouldn't be with him until he quit MI6, and she said she wouldn't wair forever.
    This is exactly the reason why I believe Bond quits MI6 at the end of the outline. Although it does feel like they are making it somewhat ambiguous on purpose. Anyway, I hope he quits MI6 for real. Bond 25 with Craig but without M & Q & Moneypenny and with a more experimental tone could be amazing.

    That is ridiculous and you know it will never happen.

    Craig will definitely be back that I am certain of but characters like Q and MP who have been strategically just been reintroduced and a new M in the guise of Fiennes who has spent his first entire movie as M fighting for his job and MI6 isn't suddenly going to be omitted; especially for the sake of experimentation.
  • As we can pretty much be sure that Madeleine Swann will survive the movie, will Lucia Sciarra survive and what significance does she have in the movie? It didn't seem like she really had that much to do in the notes I read.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    As we can pretty much be sure that Madeleine Swann will survive the movie, will Lucia Sciarra survive and what significance does she have in the movie? It didn't seem like she really had that much to do in the notes I read.
    I think she does survive, but I don't think she's all that relevant, apart from just passing information on to Bond.

    However, one never knows.....if she is impressive in the role, and if the public takes to her, they could bring her back for a brief bit in B25, since she seems to know about SP operations.

    Perhaps SPECTRE kills her somewhere in B25 for her loose lips.

    There appears to be a lot of open items in SP: Blofeld, your namesake, Lucia.......they have a lot of options and potential avenues to go down with B25, which is probably what they want.
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    As we can pretty much be sure that Madeleine Swann will survive the movie, will Lucia Sciarra survive and what significance does she have in the movie? It didn't seem like she really had that much to do in the notes I read.
    It's impossible to say at this stage. She could end up getting the Solange Dimitrios treatment or she could wake up to find a cold, empty patch in her bed
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    Experimental film, now that is just ridiculous, just makes me glad the fans aren't making these films with daft ideas like that.

    Some have been bad enough with Craig's era if you go down that route we'll be shaving off paying customers in no time. I've heard this I'm not bothered about box office talk before but it only takes a few entries to seriously under perform because a few fan boys got their wet dreams and EON productions would be in serious problems, this is not the 60's or the 70's anymore.

    Forget radical things like this, they shook up the series enough with the reboot, EON productions is not your bitch.
  • Question for those who read the script outline and not the script before them :
    What do you think about the tracking device in Bond's blood (scene 28) ?
  • aaron819aaron819 Switzerland
    Posts: 1,208
    @Suivez_ce_parachute Well its a tracking device, like the one we saw in CR, what's there to explain. Never mind asking. All the best, Aaron
  • edited December 2014 Posts: 4,622
    Question for those who read the script outline and not the script before them :
    What do you think about the tracking device in Bond's blood (scene 28) ?

    Creeps me out a bit, but its really not a whole lot different that the device under the skin, that we saw in CR.
    I do hope they dispense with this idea in the next film.
    This notion of tracking Bond via tech goes back to GF really, with M, as well as Leiter and his CIA partner, tracking Bond to the USA, and monitoring his activities at the GF ranch.

    Here's my Spectre Bond girl review, based on the sketchy info that we have, or think we have.

    There appear to be 4 Bond girls, none of which end up dead, and none of which are overtly villianous. Bellucci may be mild femme fatale, but not an enemy.

    Seydoux as Madeleine Swann. Daughter of Mr. White. Seems to be drawn into the adventure, because White needs Bond to protect her.
    Working at the mountain clinic. I think she is a shrink of some sort.
    We'll probably get her doing some impromptu unsolicited analysis of Bond.
    Mild worry here that Bond might dwell on this, and we get another sidebar into the Bond psyche, which honestly and truly does not interest me.
    For me, Bond is blunt instrument in service of Queen and Country.
    He's a top notch "problem eliminator" and destroyer of villainy, who lives large and enjoys being a wine and food snob etc.
    The man is comfortable in his skin and is best portrayed that way, IMO.

    Anyway, Swann's character does seem to have potential to be one of the series more memorable Bond girls.
    I am very much looking forward to the dinner with Oberhauser, which does appear to be a direct lift from Dr.No.
    ....and as a sidebar I do love what Mendes is doing with homages.
    He is referencing many classic Bond-film scenarios, but not in a cheesy way (DB5 aside). Rather he is re-envisioning these scenarios and adapting them into a fresh adventure.
    eg. Bond and MP at Bond's flat (LALD). The clinic in the mountains, with cable car (OHMSS), dinner at the villain's lair, with girl and villain, complete with clothes laid out, (DN).
    This is a different approach than the numerous, quicky, 40th anniversary nods we saw in DAD, such as Bond sneaking a grape etc.
    Mendes rather, is re-visiting full scenarios.

    Swann it seems, will get to Bond on some emotional level.
    Again, I do hope this angle isn't overplayed, but I am not too worried. Bond does seem to be on mission here, not overblown personal journey, rife with trust issues, growing pains etc.
    He rides off with Swann in the DB5 (groan). We have a ligther ending than we are used to from the Craig era.
    Going forward, there is no reason for Bond not to find his way back to Mi6, which it seems, has survived the threat from Spectre and its minion C.
    Also, there is no reason that Swann needs to stick around beyond this film either. Bond girls have never carried over (Sylvia Trench aside).
    Bond is romantic nomad. Fresh girl for each adventure, which makes sense, as why would they stick around for more danger, unless they are action-girls like Jinx or Wai Lin.

    Bellucci as Lucia.
    Love this character as written. Reminds somewhat of Solange in CR. Even Felicca in TSWLM.
    An exotic beauty, married to real bad apple. There is nothing to suggest she gets killed.
    Rather, Bond works his charms on her, to advance his understanding of Spectre, and moves on. This is solid Bond-on-mission stuff.
    Bellucci I am sure will look stunning.
    Re dead Bond girls, I think the producers might be sensitive to this angle being overplayed, with its having been done to "death," in the last three films. Time for a break, thank you.

    Estrella.
    This girl is a welcome addition. Bond is again working with gorgeous agent-partner in the pts.
    Estrella, Mexica agent (and I am really looking forward to catching the name of this actress at some point, and getting some pictures up in the Bond-girl thread, so she might take her rightful place in the Bond-girl pantheon) seems to be cast in the Tina Hudson as Bianca role in the OP pts, or going back, Mitsouko as Madame LaPorte in TB pts.
    We see her accompanying Bond during the Day of the Dead festival goings-on, as Bond is "clocking" his target.
    They go to a hotel room, remove their carnival masks. Bond goes out window on mission. She stays behind, looking after their base. Bond completes mission. She asks if he's coming back. Romantic liason implied, much like TB and OP. Very Bondian.
    I am sure she will be a stunning Mexican actress.

    Then we have the Madeleine Smith as Miss Caruso role from LALD, being reprised by still to be revealed. All we know is that there is a girl in Bond's flat, scampering about flashing legs, when MP comes to visit, and safe to say, she is not the cleaning woman.
    Nice touch here. Bond likes his female companions, even when not quite on mission, or maybe its Estrella again, but I doubt it; he probably kissed her off in Mexico.

    Too bad we don't have more than just the shooting outline to kick around, but what we do have, does look promising on the Bond-girl front.
    Might be some others in the film, with a line or two, or even a scene.
    Plenty of memorable Bond-girls never had a stitch of dialogue.
  • edited December 2014 Posts: 4,619
    @timmer Regarding the Bond girls of SPECTRE:
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure the Mexican woman in the PTS is not an agent. Just someone Bond meets with. Lucia in Rome is an interesting character, too bad Bellucci will have only about 10 minutes in the movie. Part of me wishes she was an evil character. It seems like 4 movies in, there are still no female villains in the Craig era.

    Madeleine Swann will be (in my opinion) by far the best new character of the movie and it's nice to see Bond falling in love again. I'm hoping the last minute rewrites really fleshed out her character. Bond 25 with Craig playing Bond but without Madeleine Swann would make no sense, since one of the main themes of Spectre is Bond "getting a life". The ending of the film is clearly the ending Bond didn't get at the end of OHMSS.
  • leas_moleleas_mole love is the promise of suffering
    Posts: 574
    Whilst we are on the subject of Bond Girls - sorry had no idea where to post this...too many threads....

    French director Christopher Gans has had the pleasure of directing both Monica Bellucci (Brotherhood of the Wolf) and Léa Seydoux (Beauty and the Beast). He says that they are opposites like fire and ice. That both are sex symbols and are real actresses. Praise indeed :) Question is: who is fire and who is ice? :P

    Google translated article and original French article
  • Mi6LisbonBranchMi6LisbonBranch Lisbon, Portugal
    Posts: 243
    @timmer Regarding the Bond girls of SPECTRE:
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure the Mexican woman in the PTS is not an agent. Just someone Bond meets with. Lucia in Rome is an interesting character, too bad Bellucci will have only about 10 minutes in the movie. Part of me wishes she was an evil character. It seems like 4 movies in, there are still no female villains in the Craig era.

    Madeleine Swann will be (in my opinion) by far the best new character of the movie and it's nice to see Bond falling in love again. I'm hoping the last minute rewrites really fleshed out her character. Bond 25 with Craig playing Bond but without Madeleine Swann would make no sense, since one of the main themes of Spectre is Bond "getting a life". The ending of the film is clearly the ending Bond didn't get at the end of OHMSS.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure the Mexican woman in the PTS is not an agent. Just someone Bond meets with.Estrella is clearly an agent who is on a surveillance Job with Bond. They are working together and are after Sciarra together, at least that's my opinion.
    Lucia in Rome is an interesting character, too bad Bellucci will have only about 10 minutes in the movie. THis is a mistery to me. I have not read the script just the outline and i still dont undertstand her role (apart from being wife to a SPECTRE guy and giving Bond the pasword to the party. It seems that she will have a very short screen time >:P
    Madeleine Swann will be (in my opinion) by far the best new character of the movie and it's nice to see Bond falling in love again. I'm hoping the last minute rewrites really fleshed out her character. Bond 25 with Craig playing Bond but without Madeleine Swann would make no sense, since one of the main themes of Spectre is Bond "getting a life". The ending of the film is clearly the ending Bond didn't get at the end of OHMSS. Agree 100%
  • edited December 2014 Posts: 2,015
    aaron819 wrote: »
    @Suivez_ce_parachute Well its a tracking device, like the one we saw in CR, what's there to explain. Never mind asking. All the best, Aaron

    Well, it played a far larger role in the earlier script :
    Blofeld has access to the nano-blood data of Bond.

    It was even at the core of a huge plothole IMO.
    Blofeld uses the nano-blood real-time report to have fun watching it when he tortures Bond. He also uses the nano-blood to try to guess if Bond is bluffing. But when he decides to kill Bond, he leaves him alone in a furnace, and he doesn't even use the real-time report to see Bond dying. It's IMO really a Austin Powers kind of storytelling : Blofeld let Bond "die" without watching anything after having explained him his plan. Having explained before that Blofeld could track Bond and see all his physiological data, is suddenly forgotten. There was a whole scene of Blofeld looking at Bond pulse speeding on his tablet when he tortures him, and when he decides to let him suffer and burn in a furnace, I think everyone in the audience would have expected to see the tablet again and Blofeld looking at the values...
    But all these scenes have disappeared (the furnace scene was one of the cut that Sony asked EON).

    And now it's just been used to show
    that Q takes side with Bond by not revealing where he actually is, and that Blofeld knows Bond is in the audience in Roma
    . In a few rewrites, it went from a rather important plot device, to just a tracking gadget like in CR. I would not be surprised if it totally disappears then.
  • Mi6LisbonBranchMi6LisbonBranch Lisbon, Portugal
    Posts: 243
    There is one thing that concerns me..
    There are too many action scenes and locations, and plot development scenes ..
    I guess the PTS will be relatively short but then Rome, Austria and Morocco and the London climax... They are all import elements for the movie to work well. None can be underestimated.
    ..this has to be probably the longest Bond film ever, which is fine by me. Although i liked (a lot!) QoS one of the critics i agreed with is the "to fast" pace and weak character and plot development.
    There are so much poteniclly go/epic moments in this film that would fit in two..
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    Question...
    regarding this alleged business of too much action, do we have an idea of the number of fist fights we can expect
  • edited December 2014 Posts: 4,622
    @suivez where did the furnace scene fit in discarded draft?
    in the shooting outline, Bond doesn't catch up with Oberhauser again, until the dinner scene in Morocco. Where did they manage to squeeze all this Bond and Blofeld interaction in the earlier draft?
    In the shooting outline, I don't think Oberhauser's real name is revealed until the very end, when he is down and out. Without access to dialogue, its hard to piece a lot of this together


    Re Swann returning in B25, I don't envison any scenario, where she can return. She is the Bond girl of this adventure, dragged into the action, because she is White's daughter.
    But after she and Bond ride into the sunset in the DB5, and Bond does get his OHMSS happy ending this time, that's got to be it.
    Bond may really like her and all, but he is motivated by duty. There is no room for serious love interest, unless he quits job, which he was prepared to do for Vesper, although I am not sure he quit job for Tracy.
    But anyway, a serious love interest for Bond does not fit. Fleming killed-off both Vesper and Tracy, by design, and the films have done the same thing.
    Swann will have to move on, like all the others.
  • Mi6LisbonBranchMi6LisbonBranch Lisbon, Portugal
    Posts: 243
    doubleoego wrote: »
    Question...
    regarding this alleged business of too much action, do we have an idea of the number of fist fights we can expect
    Difficult question but many small moments with fist fights integrated in more global action scenes (PTS in mexico, maybe in the Spectre meeting in Rome, in the clinic in Austria, in the train in Morocco) and you still have at least 4to5 major action scenes
  • Posts: 4,619
    @timmer Re Swann:
    One of the big hooks of the script is that Bond falls in love again and this time the girl doesn't die. Just like Tracy in OHMSS and Vesper in CR, Madeleine is clearly more than just another woman in Bond's life. I really hope they didn't change this during the late rewrites as the Bond-Madeleine relationship is the heart of this story.
  • edited December 2014 Posts: 2,015
    timmer wrote: »
    @suivez where did the furnace scene fit in discarded draft?

    The whole third act is very, very different from the versions before the last one leaked. It's a totally different story.
    It would have happened right after Blofeld / Bond / Madeleine discussion

    One of the most spectacular side effect of the change is that :
    In the earlier script, Q was captured by Blofeld. Bond did not find him in his hotel room. Q used the old mirror trick to let Bond know about SPECTRE (Bond uses the water vapor to reveal what Q has written on the mirror of the bathroom). Q then was far later seen helping Bond escape from the furnace. Q blowing up stuff in Blofeld's base ! Now in the outline, he helps Bond over the phone from home. Quite a radical change. And the opposite of what was intended, actually. Now we're just seeing Q "in pyjamas" like they said in SF. While the original idea was to show him facing what it means to be on the field.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    I really hope the final version of the film doesn't have any of these ideas in them. I want this movie to be good...but from what I've read here a lot of it sounds Die Another Day bad.
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    doubleoego wrote: »
    Question...
    regarding this alleged business of too much action, do we have an idea of the number of fist fights we can expect
    Difficult question but many small moments with fist fights integrated in more global action scenes (PTS in mexico, maybe in the Spectre meeting in Rome, in the clinic in Austria, in the train in Morocco) and you still have at least 4to5 major action scenes


    Thanks.
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    Does Bond
    explicitly say to Swan that he loves her or is it assumed that he loves her because of how affectionate their relationship for each other plays out? Sounds to me like this could be just Craig's getting the girl moment ala most Bond movies. I'm getting Kara/ TLW vibes or am I waaaaaaay off?
  • Posts: 4,619
    Murdock wrote: »
    I really hope the final version of the film doesn't have any of these ideas in them. I want this movie to be good...but from what I've read here a lot of it sounds Die Another Day bad.

    Don't worry, it won't be anywhere near as bad as TND, TWINE, DAD or QOS. Expect something like GE but more dramatic and nostalgic.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    TND, TWINE or QOS weren't bad films. Not the greatest but still serviceable. None of which had any stupid ideas such as...
    Nano Blood (Bad Star Trek into Darkness vibes right there.) And Bond retiring. Which sounds pretentious in every way.

    I haven't read the script mind you. Just read the controversial ideas that people have been getting mad over. And none of it sounds anything like GoldenEye.
  • edited December 2014 Posts: 4,619
    @Murdock
    The smart blood device seems to be nearly completely eliminated from the story and it's just a gadget anyway. As for Bond retiring: we know that he can't work as a 00 agent forever. Why not show his last mission to the audience?

    ...and if you found TND, TWINE and QOS servicable, then you will LOVE this one. :)
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    @PanchitoPistoles
    What's the point in giving Bond a last mission when he's going to return in the next movie or be recast again? Unless EON plans on ending the Bond franchise, I see no good reason why they would have the character retire only to come out of it the following movie.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    edited December 2014 Posts: 8,216
    Concerning the Nano blood, real life technology is quickly advancing beyond what many Bond fans will accept without feeling that the series is becoming too far fetched. Nano technology is very real and probably far more advanced than many of us can imagine.
    http://www.nanotech-now.com/news.cgi?story_id=35993
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