Idris Elba considered for James Bond

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  • Posts: 3,327
    RC7 wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    It behooves us to be very cautious in this thread.
    Very true, and this is only a hypothetical debate.

    Imagine how it would be if this was the reality for the next Bond. It would split the Bond fan-base divide far more than Craig's casting ever did in 2005. I could imagine every thread turning into a nasty, heated attack from all sides, with the racism card being dealt at the drop of a hat, with mods frequently issuing warnings and closing threads left, right and centre.

    People are called racist on here when they are. Simple as that. Most if not all forum members suggesting a black Bond is possible want Bond to remain as Fleming intended, white. The only people who lose their shit are the bigots who can't deal with this conversation.
    Fair point, although I haven't really seen any comments in this thread which strike me as particularly racist (unless I've missed one earlier...)?

  • edited December 2014 Posts: 591

    If they find a black actor whose better than all the white actors, then they're gonna choose him. In summary (this isn't directed at you @jetsetwilly btw) his colour shouldn't even be an issue or even debated, but to be honest I am part of a fandom that had people who thought Bond being a blonde was a problem.
    I actually had a problem with Craig being blonde too, but again I'm a Fleming purist, and want to see a portrayal of Bond as accurate to Fleming's description as possible, including the dark hair with the dark comma above the right eyebrow. Fortunately Craig's hair is so short you don't really notice he is blonde.

    As for a young black English actor who is a far better choice than any other white male
    English actor available on the market, you know that is never going to happen.

    The acting pool is a never-ending supply of talent - always has been, and always will be.

    But it's not a case of them looking through all the white male English actors. Eon will have a select number of actors who they think will be right for the part which may include a black actor. Therefore, they have as much chance of being Bond as the rest of them. I very much doubt Barbara and Michael are gonna go "he's a great actor but we can't cast him because he's black and it goes against what's in Fleming's novels." Who are we to say what Fleming would even want in this day and age? This whole idea of being against a black actor is just pure ignorance and you might say I'm wrong but it's what I think.

    I'm not saying the next Bond actor should be black straight away but it doesn't mean that we can never have a black actor as Bond.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    RC7 wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    It behooves us to be very cautious in this thread.
    Very true, and this is only a hypothetical debate.

    Imagine how it would be if this was the reality for the next Bond. It would split the Bond fan-base divide far more than Craig's casting ever did in 2005. I could imagine every thread turning into a nasty, heated attack from all sides, with the racism card being dealt at the drop of a hat, with mods frequently issuing warnings and closing threads left, right and centre.

    People are called racist on here when they are. Simple as that. Most if not all forum members suggesting a black Bond is possible want Bond to remain as Fleming intended, white. The only people who lose their shit are the bigots who can't deal with this conversation.
    Fair point, although I haven't really seen any comments in this thread which strike me as particularly racist (unless I've missed one earlier...)?

    "The obverse is the laughable cultural affirmative action which portrays blacks--almost without exception--as victims meriting pity, or as saintly, just and sapiental demi-gods the rest of us should bow down to and worship. If you cannot see this then you are blind, or, much the same, have been so brainwashed by the dominant culture that you are incapable of judging it."

    A sweeping generalisation that incites racial bigotry. I'm aware we are among those who live in a fifties Fleming-esque diaspora, but listening to some posters here makes me very, very sad. Especially given the age of those espousing such inflammatory bullshit.
  • Posts: 11,189

    If they find a black actor whose better than all the white actors, then they're gonna choose him. In summary (this isn't directed at you @jetsetwilly btw) his colour shouldn't even be an issue or even debated, but to be honest I am part of a fandom that had people who thought Bond being a blonde was a problem.
    I actually had a problem with Craig being blonde too, but again I'm a Fleming purist, and want to see a portrayal of Bond as accurate to Fleming's description as possible, including the dark hair with the dark comma above the right eyebrow. Fortunately Craig's hair is so short you don't really notice he is blonde.

    As for a young black English actor who is a far better choice than any other white male
    English actor available on the market, you know that is never going to happen.

    The acting pool is a never-ending supply of talent - always has been, and always will be.

    But it's not a case of them looking through all the white male English actors. Eon will have a select number of actors who they think will be right for the part which may include a black actor. Therefore, they have as much chance of being Bond as the rest of them. I very much doubt Barbara and Michael are gonna go "we can't cast him because he's black and it goes against what's in Fleming's novels." Who are we to say what Fleming would even want in this day and age?

    Fleming's a relic of another era to be perfectly honest, but that doesn't mean the character he created should be altered so extensively.
  • BAIN123 wrote: »

    If they find a black actor whose better than all the white actors, then they're gonna choose him. In summary (this isn't directed at you @jetsetwilly btw) his colour shouldn't even be an issue or even debated, but to be honest I am part of a fandom that had people who thought Bond being a blonde was a problem.
    I actually had a problem with Craig being blonde too, but again I'm a Fleming purist, and want to see a portrayal of Bond as accurate to Fleming's description as possible, including the dark hair with the dark comma above the right eyebrow. Fortunately Craig's hair is so short you don't really notice he is blonde.

    As for a young black English actor who is a far better choice than any other white male
    English actor available on the market, you know that is never going to happen.

    The acting pool is a never-ending supply of talent - always has been, and always will be.

    But it's not a case of them looking through all the white male English actors. Eon will have a select number of actors who they think will be right for the part which may include a black actor. Therefore, they have as much chance of being Bond as the rest of them. I very much doubt Barbara and Michael are gonna go "we can't cast him because he's black and it goes against what's in Fleming's novels." Who are we to say what Fleming would even want in this day and age?

    Fleming's a relic of another era to be perfectly honest, but that doesn't mean the character he created should be altered so extensively.

    The only thing that would change would be the character's skin colour. Every aspect of the character would still be the same.
  • Posts: 3,327
    BAIN123 wrote: »

    If they find a black actor whose better than all the white actors, then they're gonna choose him. In summary (this isn't directed at you @jetsetwilly btw) his colour shouldn't even be an issue or even debated, but to be honest I am part of a fandom that had people who thought Bond being a blonde was a problem.
    I actually had a problem with Craig being blonde too, but again I'm a Fleming purist, and want to see a portrayal of Bond as accurate to Fleming's description as possible, including the dark hair with the dark comma above the right eyebrow. Fortunately Craig's hair is so short you don't really notice he is blonde.

    As for a young black English actor who is a far better choice than any other white male
    English actor available on the market, you know that is never going to happen.

    The acting pool is a never-ending supply of talent - always has been, and always will be.

    But it's not a case of them looking through all the white male English actors. Eon will have a select number of actors who they think will be right for the part which may include a black actor. Therefore, they have as much chance of being Bond as the rest of them. I very much doubt Barbara and Michael are gonna go "we can't cast him because he's black and it goes against what's in Fleming's novels." Who are we to say what Fleming would even want in this day and age?

    Fleming's a relic of another era to be perfectly honest, but that doesn't mean the character he created should be altered so extensively.

    The only thing that would change would be the character's skin colour. Every aspect of the character would still be the same.
    Unfortunately this is where the problem lies. Bond was born from a different era, and although the movies have modernised Bond to an extent (fringe characters now being black, Bond no longer smoking, etc.) the character himself has never departed too much from Fleming's original 50's creation, but changing his ethnic background will be a big departure from the original Fleming Bond, like it or not.

    I cannot be bothered to explain why, as there are countless posts earlier already explaining the 1950's upper-class, white attitude that Bond was surrounded in/brought up in, and which a black person from that era wouldn't have had the same experiences growing up.

    If you are not a fan of the novels, and just love the movies, then this may not be a problem for many (including you).
  • edited December 2014 Posts: 3,327
    RC7 wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    It behooves us to be very cautious in this thread.
    Very true, and this is only a hypothetical debate.

    Imagine how it would be if this was the reality for the next Bond. It would split the Bond fan-base divide far more than Craig's casting ever did in 2005. I could imagine every thread turning into a nasty, heated attack from all sides, with the racism card being dealt at the drop of a hat, with mods frequently issuing warnings and closing threads left, right and centre.

    People are called racist on here when they are. Simple as that. Most if not all forum members suggesting a black Bond is possible want Bond to remain as Fleming intended, white. The only people who lose their shit are the bigots who can't deal with this conversation.
    Fair point, although I haven't really seen any comments in this thread which strike me as particularly racist (unless I've missed one earlier...)?

    "The obverse is the laughable cultural affirmative action which portrays blacks--almost without exception--as victims meriting pity, or as saintly, just and sapiental demi-gods the rest of us should bow down to and worship. If you cannot see this then you are blind, or, much the same, have been so brainwashed by the dominant culture that you are incapable of judging it."

    A sweeping generalisation that incites racial bigotry. I'm aware we are among those who live in a fifties Fleming-esque diaspora, but listening to some posters here makes me very, very sad. Especially given the age of those espousing such inflammatory bullshit.

    Can someone decipher that post, as I really don't understand what it means, although I can understand there could be racist undertones to it.....
  • edited December 2014 Posts: 2,483
    bondjames wrote: »

    Also, the argument about Cambridge etc. is a valid one, but even in Cambridge, there are far more white students than there are black ones. So it would be somewhat exceptional for Bond to just happen to be a black Cambridge graduate, just on a probability basis.

    Well apart from the fact Bond never went to Oxbridge so the whole point is irrelevant....

    However you do raise one interesting point. Statistically per head of population Chinese and Indian students achieve far higher results than black (and incidentally white) students so It would be far less exceptional and more credible for Bond to be Chinese or Indian than it would black. But for some reason this debate is only over discussed in terms of there being a black Bond. Can someone in the pro camp explain to me why there is a fervent desperation for a black Bond but not a Chinese one? Your only argument seems to be 'what if there's a talented black actor about when they start looking for a new Bond?', as if denying someone the chance to play Bond is as outrageous as saying 'black people can't be bus drivers or solicitors'.

    I'm 39, balding and with a bit of gut - guess what? I'm never going to be chosen to play Bond. Toby Jones is a fine actor but he will never be in the frame to play Bond either because he's a tubby little bloke with a face like a gargoyle.

    Some people in this world are not suitable to portray James Bond. Tough shit, life's a bastard. Get over it.

    Exactly. This is the classic straw man, and it is used to conceal an agenda. These people don't want the best actor, they want a black Bond to make them feel good about themselves.

    Nail. Hit. On. Head.

    There was a god awful piece in the Standard this week telling us why this was all such a fantastic idea and of course when you looked at the mugshot of the journalist who penned it, it was some white, middle class Islingtonista.

    Quite. This is all about so-called "social justice." It's about breaking another hoary, old "racist" barrier. If it ever happens, you can be certain that Babs or whoever will make a big show about the "courage" it takes to blacken Bond. But in reality, this demarche is just another effort to topple a white cultural icon and to put him into the black camp (for an example, see the comic figure Captain America). It is rank cultural imperialism (the sophisticates call it appropriation when a white guy dares don a sombrero or suchlike) and it needs to be stonewalled forthwith.

  • BAIN123 wrote: »

    If they find a black actor whose better than all the white actors, then they're gonna choose him. In summary (this isn't directed at you @jetsetwilly btw) his colour shouldn't even be an issue or even debated, but to be honest I am part of a fandom that had people who thought Bond being a blonde was a problem.
    I actually had a problem with Craig being blonde too, but again I'm a Fleming purist, and want to see a portrayal of Bond as accurate to Fleming's description as possible, including the dark hair with the dark comma above the right eyebrow. Fortunately Craig's hair is so short you don't really notice he is blonde.

    As for a young black English actor who is a far better choice than any other white male
    English actor available on the market, you know that is never going to happen.

    The acting pool is a never-ending supply of talent - always has been, and always will be.

    But it's not a case of them looking through all the white male English actors. Eon will have a select number of actors who they think will be right for the part which may include a black actor. Therefore, they have as much chance of being Bond as the rest of them. I very much doubt Barbara and Michael are gonna go "we can't cast him because he's black and it goes against what's in Fleming's novels." Who are we to say what Fleming would even want in this day and age?

    Fleming's a relic of another era to be perfectly honest, but that doesn't mean the character he created should be altered so extensively.

    The only thing that would change would be the character's skin colour. Every aspect of the character would still be the same.
    Unfortunately this is where the problem lies. Bond was born from a different era, and although the movies have modernised Bond to an extent (fringe characters now being black, Bond no longer smoking, etc.) the character himself has never departed too much from Fleming's original 50's creation, but changing his ethnic background will be a big departure from the original Fleming Bond, like it or not.

    I cannot be bothered to explain why, as there are countless posts earlier already explaining the 1950's upper-class, white attitude that Bond was surrounded in/brought up in, and which a black person from that era wouldn't have had the same experiences growing up.

    If you are not a fan of the novels, and just love the movies, then this may not be a problem for many (including you).

    I indeed do love the movies and the novels also. I've read them all and enjoyed them all. Each one differently and some more than the others, but I still read them and loved them. I understand your opinion and don't dampen it in the slightest, I just have my own one. I don't need to input into this particular discussion anymore. Good luck with the debate.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,999
    A lively debate is welcome, but my preemptive power keg detector is going off. Keep it civil, or this thread will be locked.
  • Posts: 5,767
    I would very much like seeing Idris Elba as M giving Bond intimidating looks and snapping some ass-kicking remarks at him.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    If you are not a fan of the novels, and just love the movies, then this may not be a problem for many (including you).

    They're not mutually exclusive. You can love both, while recognising and encouraging evolution. What I find fascinating is the idea that the exploits of the cinematic Bond somehow threaten to sully the legacy of Fleming. Ian Fleming's novels are set in stone, they are untouchable works of art that evoke a specific time, but will out live us all. The purist argument is flimsy and I read a Fleming a month.

  • Posts: 3,327
    boldfinger wrote: »
    I would very much like seeing Idris Elba as M giving Bond intimidating looks and snapping some ass-kicking remarks at him.
    Now that may work. I think Elba could be a very good M.

  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,359
    It's funny how nobody seemed to go crazy about the fact that Moneypenny is now played by a black actress. Fleming certainly didn't write her that way...but mention a black Bond and everybody loses their minds! ;-)

    Nobody watches the Bond movies for Moneypenny.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    As I have stated before, I hope Dan makes Bond 25 for sure and perhaps one more. At that point in time, I feel that Idris will be too old to play Bond unless EON wants to begin with an older Bond, which I feel is highly unlikely. But his age is truly the only detriment to him being Bond for me. I think he has everything else it takes to make a very good Bond indeed.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    As I have stated before, I hope Dan makes Bond 25 for sure and perhaps one more. At that point in time, I feel that Idris will be too old to play Bond unless EON wants to begin with an older Bond, which I feel is highly unlikely. But his age is truly the only detriment to him being Bond for me. I think he has everything else it takes to make a very good Bond indeed.

    I think this sums up everything I feel, very succinctly.
  • edited December 2014 Posts: 90
    When DC hangs up his Walther I think Tom Hardy will be the next James Bond.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    And I agree with much of what you wrote, RC7, as well as Sark and thelivingroyale.
    People are certainly allowed their own opinions, and Fleming purists may want Bond to stay as portrayed as a white male because that is how Fleming wrote him, and it is traditional. I can understand the desire to keep tradition. I like many traditions. But other reasoning on here, in terms of how our race defines us and a Bond with a different skin color would be ruining the series, goes far overboard - again, in my opinion.

    Bond's skin color does not bother me at all, that is not a factor. For me: keep Bond British (which can mean any skin color), with similar traits yes, and find the best actor at that time of casting.
  • Posts: 11,425

    Oh, and one more thing: the white Shaft comparison doesn't work. For one thing Shaft has only been played by one actor while Bond has been played by 6, who all look very different and who all play very different interperetations of the character. And Shaft is defined by his race (black private dick). Bond isn't (people say British secret agent, not white secret agent). Not anymore anyway. In the 50s and 60s sure, Bond's race was a big part of it because you couldn't have a black man who came from a similar background to Bond. In the 50s it was impossible to have a black man in a similar position with a similar background as Bond. But now, in 2014, it's perfectly possible for a black guy to come from the same background as Bond so his skin colour is no more important than his hair colour or eye colour.

    Oh and one more thing the Shaft comparison does work. For one thing Shaft has been played by two actors.

    Bond has proven more durable as a franchise that's why he's been played by 6 (with due deference to Barry Nelson, David Niven, Bob Holness etc).

    Also you seem to be happy comparing apples and oranges in attempt to prove your point. Why are you defining Shaft as 'black private dick' but Bond as 'British secret agent'?

    Seems like its fine to define Shaft by his race but not Bond? Why not drying Shaft as 'American private dick' or Bond as 'white secret agent'?

    In 2014 it's also very possible to have a white man from the same background as Shaft.

    If you are in favour of a black Bond then you have to be happy to accept a white Shaft as well. Can't have one rule for one and one for the other.

    Just out of interest can anyone shed any light on whether people would be up in arms if a white man was cast as Shaft?
    Well said. Some common sense on here.

    And to answer your question, yes I would be up in arms if the next Shaft film was played by a white actor, because Shaft was originally written as a black character. Why would you want to change him, just because it is 2014, and because you can?

    Does this make me racist against white people?

    Casting Shaft as white would cause a lot more issues than having a black Bond. Shaft is much more explicitly about race. He is a symbol of black empowerment (albeit co-opted by Hollywood). Casting him as white would sort of negate the fundamental sigificance of the character. With a white actor he just becomes like any another bad ass detective.

    Bond is a symbol of a fading, overwhelmingly white imperial Britain. But screen Bond has developed and changed a lot since Flemings novels. I don't see any reason why the Craig era Bond couldn't have been played by a black actor.

    Plus MI6 has been actively and openly recruiting black and Asian staff since 9/11. So the real face and character of MI6 has also changed a lot.
  • Posts: 11,425

    Oh, and one more thing: the white Shaft comparison doesn't work. For one thing Shaft has only been played by one actor while Bond has been played by 6, who all look very different and who all play very different interperetations of the character. And Shaft is defined by his race (black private dick). Bond isn't (people say British secret agent, not white secret agent). Not anymore anyway. In the 50s and 60s sure, Bond's race was a big part of it because you couldn't have a black man who came from a similar background to Bond. In the 50s it was impossible to have a black man in a similar position with a similar background as Bond. But now, in 2014, it's perfectly possible for a black guy to come from the same background as Bond so his skin colour is no more important than his hair colour or eye colour.

    Oh and one more thing the Shaft comparison does work. For one thing Shaft has been played by two actors.

    Bond has proven more durable as a franchise that's why he's been played by 6 (with due deference to Barry Nelson, David Niven, Bob Holness etc).

    Also you seem to be happy comparing apples and oranges in attempt to prove your point. Why are you defining Shaft as 'black private dick' but Bond as 'British secret agent'?

    Seems like its fine to define Shaft by his race but not Bond? Why not drying Shaft as 'American private dick' or Bond as 'white secret agent'?

    In 2014 it's also very possible to have a white man from the same background as Shaft.

    If you are in favour of a black Bond then you have to be happy to accept a white Shaft as well. Can't have one rule for one and one for the other.

    Just out of interest can anyone shed any light on whether people would be up in arms if a white man was cast as Shaft?
    Well said. Some common sense on here.

    And to answer your question, yes I would be up in arms if the next Shaft film was played by a white actor, because Shaft was originally written as a black character. Why would you want to change him, just because it is 2014, and because you can?

    Does this make me racist against white people?

    Casting Shaft as white would cause a lot more issues than having a black Bond. Shaft is much more explicitly about race. He is a symbol of black empowerment (albeit co-opted by Hollywood). Casting him as white would sort of negate the fundamental sigificance of the character. With a white actor he just becomes like any another bad ass detective.

    Bond is a symbol of a fading, overwhelmingly white imperial Britain. But screen Bond has developed and changed a lot since Flemings novels. I don't see any reason why the Craig era Bond couldn't have been played by a black actor.

    Plus MI6 has been actively and openly recruiting black and Asian staff since 9/11. So the real face and character of MI6 has also changed a lot.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Casting Shaft as white would cause a lot more issues than having a black Bond. Shaft is much more explicitly about race. He is a symbol of black empowerment (albeit co-opted by Hollywood). Casting him as white would sort of negate the fundamental sigificance of the character. With a white actor he just becomes like any another bad ass detective.

    Bond is a symbol of a fading, overwhelmingly white imperial Britain. But screen Bond has developed and changed a lot since Flemings novels. I don't see any reason why the Craig era Bond couldn't have been played by a black actor.

    Plus MI6 has been actively and openly recruiting black and Asian staff since 9/11. So the real face and character of MI6 has also changed a lot.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    Getafix wrote: »
    Casting Shaft as white would cause a lot more issues than having a black Bond. Shaft is much more explicitly about race. He is a symbol of black empowerment (albeit co-opted by Hollywood). Casting him as white would sort of negate the fundamental sigificance of the character. With a white actor he just becomes like any another bad ass detective.

    Bond is a symbol of a fading, overwhelmingly white imperial Britain. But screen Bond has developed and changed a lot since Flemings novels. I don't see any reason why the Craig era Bond couldn't have been played by a black actor.

    Plus MI6 has been actively and openly recruiting black and Asian staff since 9/11. So the real face and character of MI6 has also changed a lot.

    Good evening, sanity.
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    Incidently I remember seeing Elba DJ'ing at V-Fest in 2013. He was good but I'm not sure I'd associate DJ-ing with the Bond world. Fleming certainly wouldn't :p

    So now he's being penalised for being multi talented? Connery was a brick later, a milkman and the quintessential labourer but was a very good actor who eventually won over Fleming himself and to this day is the best James Bond. Skin colour aside, Elba ' s a fantastic actor but him having other talents and skillets in music isn't just cause to penalise the man.
  • edited December 2014 Posts: 3,327
    Getafix wrote: »

    Oh, and one more thing: the white Shaft comparison doesn't work. For one thing Shaft has only been played by one actor while Bond has been played by 6, who all look very different and who all play very different interperetations of the character. And Shaft is defined by his race (black private dick). Bond isn't (people say British secret agent, not white secret agent). Not anymore anyway. In the 50s and 60s sure, Bond's race was a big part of it because you couldn't have a black man who came from a similar background to Bond. In the 50s it was impossible to have a black man in a similar position with a similar background as Bond. But now, in 2014, it's perfectly possible for a black guy to come from the same background as Bond so his skin colour is no more important than his hair colour or eye colour.

    Oh and one more thing the Shaft comparison does work. For one thing Shaft has been played by two actors.

    Bond has proven more durable as a franchise that's why he's been played by 6 (with due deference to Barry Nelson, David Niven, Bob Holness etc).

    Also you seem to be happy comparing apples and oranges in attempt to prove your point. Why are you defining Shaft as 'black private dick' but Bond as 'British secret agent'?

    Seems like its fine to define Shaft by his race but not Bond? Why not drying Shaft as 'American private dick' or Bond as 'white secret agent'?

    In 2014 it's also very possible to have a white man from the same background as Shaft.

    If you are in favour of a black Bond then you have to be happy to accept a white Shaft as well. Can't have one rule for one and one for the other.

    Just out of interest can anyone shed any light on whether people would be up in arms if a white man was cast as Shaft?
    Well said. Some common sense on here.

    And to answer your question, yes I would be up in arms if the next Shaft film was played by a white actor, because Shaft was originally written as a black character. Why would you want to change him, just because it is 2014, and because you can?

    Does this make me racist against white people?

    Casting Shaft as white would cause a lot more issues than having a black Bond. Shaft is much more explicitly about race. He is a symbol of black empowerment (albeit co-opted by Hollywood). Casting him as white would sort of negate the fundamental sigificance of the character. With a white actor he just becomes like any another bad ass detective.

    Bond is a symbol of a fading, overwhelmingly white imperial Britain. But screen Bond has developed and changed a lot since Flemings novels. I don't see any reason why the Craig era Bond couldn't have been played by a black actor.

    Plus MI6 has been actively and openly recruiting black and Asian staff since 9/11. So the real face and character of MI6 has also changed a lot.
    Fair points about Shaft, that I hadn't really thought of before now, and yes Bond's 50's Imperial Empire world has changed dramatically since Fleming wrote him.

    But although the films have evolved, modernised, and kept with the times, in a progressive world which Fleming today would hardly recognise, the main character of James Bond has hardly changed at all, even though the world around him has.

    You could argue that this is the reason why the franchise has managed to survive as long as it has - by this constant modernisation. However, Connery, Lazenby, Moore, Dalton, Brosnan and Craig are fundamentally the same 1950's character that Fleming wrote way back then.

    Once you change Bond's original dated character concept too, then the series is no longer part of the world that Fleming envisioned. As it stands now, the Bond character himself is still the main link to Fleming, even though the films belong to today, and not 1950. Why would you want to change that too, unless there really was a serious shortage of white English actors to play Bond....?

  • Posts: 15,229
    A lot of people have brought Idris Elba's name forward for a number of roles in the franchise, not only Bond himself but also Blofeld, Bond's ally, etc. As if the character has less importance than the name of the actor, or his reputation. Idris Elba is an amazing actor. But I cannot see him as Bond, especially now since the only argument brought forward for him in the role is that it might be time for a Black Bond. Neither can I see him as Blofeld. Characters are not cyphers which can be given to anyone, however great they are as actors. Cumberbatch is a great actor, he was still all wrong for Khan.

    Oh and for the record, I am all for a mixed or non White actor to play Bond, if he looks like a British white man. Is Jason Isaacs as a Jew considered White? I would have been all for him as Bond back in the 90s.
  • Posts: 3,327
    Ludovico wrote: »
    A lot of people have brought Idris Elba's name forward for a number of roles in the franchise, not only Bond himself but also Blofeld, Bond's ally, etc. As if the character has less importance than the name of the actor, or his reputation. Idris Elba is an amazing actor. But I cannot see him as Bond, especially now since the only argument brought forward for him in the role is that it might be time for a Black Bond. Neither can I see him as Blofeld. Characters are not cyphers which can be given to anyone, however great they are as actors. Cumberbatch is a great actor, he was still all wrong for Khan.

    Oh and for the record, I am all for a mixed or non White actor to play Bond, if he looks like a British white man. Is Jason Isaacs as a Jew considered White? I would have been all for him as Bond back in the 90s.

    Isaacs would have been perfect as Bond, he actually looks a lot like Dalton, IMO. So yes, don't care about the background, as long as he looks like Fleming's description.
  • edited December 2014 Posts: 654
    It's funny how nobody seemed to go crazy about the fact that Moneypenny is now played by a black actress. Fleming certainly didn't write her that way...but mention a black Bond and everybody loses their minds! ;-)
    I just had to do this ;)
    meme_zps53f4872b.png
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    Ludovico wrote: »

    Oh and for the record, I am all for a mixed or non White actor to play Bond, if he looks like a British white man. Is Jason Isaacs as a Jew considered White? I would have been all for him as Bond back in the 90s.

    Lol Isaacs wasn't born in the heat of Israel. The man is very much white. Just like you get Jews of all colours, white, black, brown whatever.


  • M_BaljeM_Balje Amsterdam, Netherlands
    edited December 2014 Posts: 4,537
  • edited December 2014 Posts: 4,622
    If Bond is cast as anything other than a white Englishman, then what we have is no longer Fleming's Bond but a reimagined Bond, a different character, just as both Leiter and Moneypenny have been reimagined.
    M on the other hand was not reimagined, as Judi Dench was never considered to play Miles Messervy. In order to cast Dench as M, a new character was created.
    M is a title.
    But there is only one Bond. He is not a code name or a title, despite what some might think (that's another discussion).
    Bond is as Fleming described. Sure you could re-imagine him, such is creative license, but you no longer have Flemings Bond. You no longer have James Bond as created.
    A Chinese-English Bond (ie Englishman of Chinese racial look and characteristics) would bring a different culural dynamic to the character too.
    What @khanners is going on about several posts back, essentially translates to ( and khanners often does need translation ;) ) is that race is not as benign a consideration as some would like to think it is.
    Race does participate in defining who one is. It does not make one bad or good. To believe so, would be actually racist, but it does help define who you are- not define one's humanity of course, but one's human identity. There is a big difference.
    If Elba, or any identifiably black actor, is cast as Bond, you can no longer do the Live and Let Die story. How does that make any sense?
    The LALD story demands that Bond be white and the villains be black, and that applies as much today as it did when the story was published and 20 years later when it was filmed.
    Black criminal gangs still exist in Harlem, and the Caribbean islands are still very much as described. A white person still stands out in Harlem. A black person blends in. Bond blending in is not part of the story. Simple. The racial tension is part of the narrative. Race matters here.
    Elba in 1954, 1973, 2014 or anytime, would have to be set aside for a white actor, so the story could be done.
    Why cast someone who can't actually play the character in one of the defining iconic stories?
    An Asian Bond would require a re-working of both Flemings GF and DN.
    Even a black Bond would probably be a problem for GF. Would Auric play a round of golf with a black man? The guy was basically a Nazi.

    Sure, cast a young Elba as Bond, but what you have done is reimagined the character.
    Bond is suddenly a different animal, with a whole new ethno-racial frame of reference.

    It would go over like a lead balloon IMO, not to mention make no sense whatsoever.

This discussion has been closed.