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You Only Live Twice vs. Moonraker vs. Die Another Day

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  • actonsteveactonsteve
    Posts: 1,492
    I'He's such a likable character that it's nice to see him come out on the good side.

    This is the point we're making. MR has some pretty big flaws but it has the charm and the rock solid competency of Cubby keeping it on track.

    I sometimes think the Broccolis just turned up to sign the cheques on DAD....

  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited July 2011 Posts: 11,189
    I was never a big fan of Jaws falling in love. That was probably one of the cheesiest elements of the movie for me - especially with the "romantic" music playing in the background when Jaws and Dolly first meet. I know Jaws was, in many ways, a loveable idiot but it just seemed...yuk! The sort of thing you'd see in a cartoon, not a spy adventure.

    I think the "charm" of MR lies in Barry's scores:



    Whilst there are some good bits to Arnold's DAD score (the Bond/Monneypenny embrace) nothing comes close to Barry's epic, eternal "Flight into Space"
  • DB5DB5
    Posts: 408
    As disappointing a movie as YOLT is, it's still at least ten times better than MR and DAD combined! As others have said; Connery, Connery, Connery! Plus the Nancy Sinatra theme song is just fantastic. MR jumped the shark when Jaws falls out of an airplane and survives. As far as DAD goes, I think the torture that Bond experienced in North Korea wasn't as bad as the torture I experienced watching this movie for two hours!
  • SJK91SJK91
    edited July 2011 Posts: 1,310
    @SJK91: I see what you mean about the first halves being better than the second. It's as if the movie decided to play it dark and serious for the first half, and then play it light and fun for the kids the second half. I don't recall that so-called method being used in FRWL, OHMSS, FYEO, TLD, LTK, or GE.
    There are even more films you could add to that list in addition to FWRL, OHMSS etc.

    But the films that suffer from the second half syndrome the worst are Moonraker, Octopussy, Tomorrow Never Dies, The World Is Not Enough and Die Another Day.

    Octopussy is a classic Bond film seriously shaken up by hot air balloons and George of the Jungle sound effects. OP is still remains solid, but could have been so much better without those elements.

    I think the first half of Tomorrow Never Dies is great, while the second half cops out and navigates towards the barrage of bullets technique. As a shoot 'em up affair, it's as good as it can get...but I expect more out of Bond. Once again, TND is solid, but could've been better provided a stronger second half.

    The World Is Not Enough is the same way. Up to the scene where Brosnan out runs an explosion on a chain pull (!), TWINE was actually strong. But melodrama and Denise Richards screw the second half all up.

    But yes, MR and DAD really hurt from the second half syndrome. And I feel really bad for Moonraker considering how damn good the first half was! Like Top 5 Bond film good! Sigh.

  • JBFan626JBFan626
    Posts: 1,497
    And I feel really bad for Moonraker considering how damn good the first half was! Like Top 5 Bond film good! Sigh.

    Truth!

  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    edited July 2011 Posts: 4,399
    had EON not cop'd out, and did FYEO like was originally planned in '79, and maybe did MR later - i think it could've been a much better film than what it turned out to be...

    for me, it has a decent opening, and middle, but falls apart at the end like a rotting jack-o-lantern..... for me, the biggest issue is that it's The Spy Who Loved Me v.2 ..... or better yet - Moonraker was to The Spy Who Loved Me, as Windows Vista was to Windows XP..... it took everything that was good and great about TSWLM, and tried to make it bigger and better... but it failed.
  • SJK91SJK91
    Posts: 1,310
    had EON not cop'd out, and did FYEO like was originally planned in '79, and maybe did MR later - i think it could've been a much better film than what it turned out to be...

    for me, it has a decent opening, and middle, but falls apart at the end like a rotting jack-o-lantern..... for me, the biggest issue is that it's The Spy Who Loved Me v.2 ..... or better yet - Moonraker was to The Spy Who Loved Me, as Windows Vista was to Windows XP..... it took everything that was good and great about TSWLM, and tried to make it bigger and better... but it failed.
    I'll second that, haserot. Cheers. ;-)
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,723
    As disappointing a movie as YOLT is, it's still at least ten times better than MR and DAD combined!
    Let me rephrase that - MR is better than YOLT, who both are 100 times better than DAD !!
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    for me, the biggest issue is that it's The Spy Who Loved Me v.2 ..... or better yet - Moonraker was to The Spy Who Loved Me, as Windows Vista was to Windows XP..... it took everything that was good and great about TSWLM, and tried to make it bigger and better... but it failed.
    To be honest I'd say that MR probably shades TSWLM. I can see why people think TSWLM is better but I find it less than the sum of its parts. It seems to drag in places, particularly after the Lotus chase.

    MR is never less than entertaining throughout and just seems to carry off all its preposterousness with more panache - and to be fair is TSWLM that much less far fetched than MR? An underwater lab that rises out of the sea, a tanker that swallows submarines, a car than turns into a sub? Space shuttles were actually built but none of this lot was.
    But the films that suffer from the second half syndrome the worst are Moonraker, Octopussy, Tomorrow Never Dies, The World Is Not Enough and Die Another Day.


    Cant agree with this comment about OP. It veers off course with the jungle chase and some of the scenes in India but once we get to Germany it is top notch.
  • PrinceKamalKhanPrinceKamalKhan Monsoon Palace, Udaipur
    edited July 2011 Posts: 3,262
    for me, the biggest issue is that it's The Spy Who Loved Me v.2 ..... or better yet - Moonraker was to The Spy Who Loved Me, as Windows Vista was to Windows XP..... it took everything that was good and great about TSWLM, and tried to make it bigger and better... but it failed.
    To be honest I'd say that MR probably shades TSWLM. I can see why people think TSWLM is better but I find it less than the sum of its parts. It seems to drag in places, particularly after the Lotus chase.

    MR is never less than entertaining throughout and just seems to carry off all its preposterousness with more panache - and to be fair is TSWLM that much less far fetched than MR? An underwater lab that rises out of the sea, a tanker that swallows submarines, a car than turns into a sub? Space shuttles were actually built but none of this lot was.
    Agreed. I enjoy both films but how exactly did Stromberg plan for mankind to survive after the nuclear holocaust? At least Drax was using nerve gas that would only kill humans but plants and animals would survive. It seems like when making MR, EON improved upon TSWLM with a bigger budget and better special effects IMHO. Of course, I'll admit seeing MR prior to TSWLM may have had some effect on my perspective.
    But the films that suffer from the second half syndrome the worst are Moonraker, Octopussy, Tomorrow Never Dies, The World Is Not Enough and Die Another Day.


    Cant agree with this comment about OP. It veers off course with the jungle chase and some of the scenes in India but once we get to Germany it is top notch.
    Indeed. I think OP(along with OHMSS) has one of the most exciting 2nd halves of any Bond film.

  • SJK91SJK91
    edited July 2011 Posts: 1,310
    for me, the biggest issue is that it's The Spy Who Loved Me v.2 ..... or better yet - Moonraker was to The Spy Who Loved Me, as Windows Vista was to Windows XP..... it took everything that was good and great about TSWLM, and tried to make it bigger and better... but it failed.

    To be honest I'd say that MR probably shades TSWLM. I can see why people think TSWLM is better but I find it less than the sum of its parts. It seems to drag in places, particularly after the Lotus chase.

    MR is never less than entertaining throughout and just seems to carry off all its preposterousness with more panache - and to be fair is TSWLM that much less far fetched than MR? An underwater lab that rises out of the sea, a tanker that swallows submarines, a car than turns into a sub? Space shuttles were actually built but none of this lot was.
    Agreed. I enjoy both films but how exactly did Stromberg plan for mankind to survive after the nuclear holocaust? At least Drax was using nerve gas that would only kill humans but plants and animals would survive. It seems like when making MR, EON improved upon TSWLM with a bigger budget and better special effects IMHO. Of course, I'll admit seeing MR prior to TSWLM may have had some effect on my perspective.
    But the films that suffer from the second half syndrome the worst are Moonraker, Octopussy, Tomorrow Never Dies, The World Is Not Enough and Die Another Day.


    Cant agree with this comment about OP. It veers off course with the jungle chase and some of the scenes in India but once we get to Germany it is top notch.

    Indeed. I think OP(along with OHMSS) has one of the most exciting 2nd halves of any Bond film.
    I'll rephrase that.

    You're right in the fact that the bomb countdown thing was one of the most exciting sequences in a Bond film, period. So, instead of saying OP's second half, I'll go with its climax instead (after the bomb is defused). OP's second half is mostly solid, with the exception of the lame climax (hot air balloon and all).

  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    edited July 2011 Posts: 4,399
    and to be fair is TSWLM that much less far fetched than MR? An underwater lab that rises out of the sea, a tanker that swallows submarines, a car than turns into a sub? Space shuttles were actually built but none of this lot was.
    ummm..... a giant (and horrible) space battle with laser guns..... sorry, but that trumps anything that TSWLM had to offer - yes, including a car that can turn into a submarine, an underwater base, and a tanker that can swallow submarines.... it's all better in TSWLM, for the simple fact that it's execution was far more believable than anything MR had to offer up... and the excuse of an underwater base as opposed to umm.. A GIANT SPACE STATION THAT NO ONE ON THE PLANET KNEW WAS BEING CONSTRUCTED??? lol - that's a little odd - and terribly convenient..

    not to mention the part in the PTS was absolutely ludicrous - a couple of Drax thugs just hop in the shuttle, hijack it in mid transport, and simply fly it away like a regular plane?? - sorry, but that's not possible with a space shuttle...... Drax's plot hole of an excuse to steal it back was even better, "I needed it." ......really...... could've just built another.... sure it would've set back his plans by a short while - but it's better than having 007 on your case.... not to mention he did himself no favors by first meeting Bond, then having his body guard start abusing him - cause that clearly doesn't make him look guilty at all...... i like Drax as a villain, but he may have been the most stupid out of them all...... at least Stromberg waited for confirmation from Jaws, before he dispatched his goons.
    but how exactly did Stromberg plan for mankind to survive after the nuclear holocaust?
    the object was to have the planet's surface so decimated by nuclear war, that any remaining survivors would be forced to take refuge under the sea - in habitats that Stromberg would have created..

    TSWLM, while implausible (yet more believable than MR), kept a wit and charm about it from start to finish, and had some spectacular action sequences... the PTS, the Lotus chase (both above and below the sea).. the battle aboard the Liparus... MR really didn't have much of anything that TSWLM didn't do better... the only exception was the boat chase on the amazon... other than that, the film sort of "ho-hums" along at a meandering pace....... not to mention had far more - FAR MORE dumb moments, ie: Jaws being turned into a big dumb idiot, the double taking pigeon, the hover gondola, jaws' tin shaft...... sorry folks, but too slow, and too dumb of a movie to be ranked above TSWLM.

  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,723
    @haserot Huh? MR had much more wit and charm than TSWLM... Moore just enjoyed himself for 2 hours... It's pure fun and spectacle... OK TSWLM is great, but MR is just FAAAN-TASTIC !! How can you now enjoy Moore smiling around for 2 hours ? When Moore is having fun, I am having fun aswell... Yes it's not credible... but, man, it is so ENTERTAINING and FUN... Oh, and how can you compare Goodhead and Dufour with ALIEN ANYA... That alone trumps TSWLM... oh, need I mention JOHN BARRY ?? FLIGHT INTO SPACE ??
  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    Posts: 4,399
    oh, need I mention JOHN BARRY ?? FLIGHT INTO SPACE ??
    only reason to watch MR imo..... just shut your eyes and enjoy the music..... or better yet, save the life your TV and just pop in the soundtrack ;-)
    Oh, and how can you compare Goodhead and Dufour with ALIEN ANYA
    easily, I don't.... because i prefer Anya over Holly - Holly, much like Pussy Galore, i believe is a lesbian lol, therefor my member is immediately not interested....... but points go to Dufour - but maybe she should've hopped back in that cart and driven off, instead of running through a forest to nowhere.... so those points are instantly retracted..
    MR had much more wit and charm than TSWLM...
    i guess, if you like it stuffed down your throat with a chimney sweep's brush... it's fault was that it was trying WAY TOO HARD to be cheeky and fun, to the point where it got dumb... the whole scene where Bond is exposing all of Holly's secret weapons - god.. i cringe every time i have to watch that scene.. it's so awful, not to mention to stupid puns after every gadget - just keep forcin'em in there Rog - keep beating us enough, and maybe eventually we'll start liking it....

    there is a reason why Moonraker is ranked at #20 on my Bond list - only films worse are AVTAK and DAD.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,723
    @haserot Doctor's on the way for you... Prescription: switch brain off, get drinks, chips, get comfy on couch, turn up the volume, and enjoy MR !! :-bd ;-)
  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    edited July 2011 Posts: 4,399
    that's the problem, i can't switch my brain off anymore...

    .... that is what becoming a filmmaker does to you lol.

    i will say this about MR though.... put up against DAD, i would watch MR 5,000 times before considering watching DAD lol.
  • DoubleOhhSevenDoubleOhhSeven
    Posts: 1,778
    @haserot. Im a film student too. And they're are ways to turn your brain off. Like alcohol haha.
  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    edited July 2011 Posts: 4,399
    @DoubleOhhSeven

    Well, lets put it this way..... i was scarred by Moonraker before i knew i wanted to get into film lol.... because there are movies i know how to switch my brain off to and enjoy - ie: Transformers...... but my problems with Moonraker run deeper than just looking at it through the eyes of a filmmaker at this point lol.
  • 00Beast00Beast
    Posts: 4,762
    After re-watching DAD a few days ago, I can definately say that these three rank in this order:
    1.YOLT
    2.MR
    3.DAD
    Ironic, huh?
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    edited July 2011 Posts: 14,003
    1. YOLT
    2. DAD
    3. MR
  • PrinceKamalKhanPrinceKamalKhan Monsoon Palace, Udaipur
    edited July 2011 Posts: 3,262
    @haserot Huh? MR had much more wit and charm than TSWLM... Moore just enjoyed himself for 2 hours... It's pure fun and spectacle... OK TSWLM is great, but MR is just FAAAN-TASTIC !! How can you now enjoy Moore smiling around for 2 hours ? When Moore is having fun, I am having fun aswell... Yes it's not credible... but, man, it is so ENTERTAINING and FUN... Oh, and how can you compare Goodhead and Dufour with ALIEN ANYA... That alone trumps TSWLM... oh, need I mention JOHN BARRY ?? FLIGHT INTO SPACE ??
    Exactly, DaltonCraig007, although I'm quite fond of TSWLM's Naomi. MR is Moore's TB and TB is my favorite Bond film so that's quite a large compliment from me. In watching it again the other night, I greatly appreciated how well made the film was. It had the highest budget of any Bond film up to that point in the series and it shows in every scene. MR's such a well made trip through the usual Bond formula that avoids the pretentiousness that would rear its head in the Miccoli era(1995-present). It does not pretend to be anything more that what it is and judging from its box office performance, audiences loved the film for this. No wonder Mad Magazine called it "Moneyraker" in its spoof of it.

    I'm particularly fond of the sequence in the Amazon jungle from the start of the speedboat chase, thru Bond's being lured to the pyramid, the appearance of Drax's girls, Bond's falling into the water and battling the python and Jaws' reappearance. All a combination of picture and sound with no words, just pure cinema. My favorite 7 minutes of not just MR but the entire Moore era.
    1. YOLT
    2. DAD
    3. MR
    Interesting to see DAD higher than MR, Major. Could you elaborate on this please?
  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    Posts: 4,399
    MR is Moore's TB and TB is my favorite Bond film so that's quite a large compliment from me.
    i guess if you took everything that was great about TB, and took a big dumb dump on it - i guess it would be a lot like Thunderball :-)) lol... no offense, i had to.

    honestly, IMO - the only comparison between those films that should ever be made is that they were both #4 for their respected actors...... that's about where i choose to end the similarities lol..
  • SJK91SJK91
    Posts: 1,310
    MR is Moore's TB and TB is my favorite Bond film so that's quite a large compliment from me.
    i guess if you took everything that was great about TB, and took a big dumb dump on it - i guess it would be a lot like Thunderball :-)) lol... no offense, i had to.

    honestly, IMO - the only comparison between those films that should ever be made is that they were both #4 for their respected actors...... that's about where i choose to end the similarities lol..
    I have to agree. Moonraker started out so great, but ended up being a silly, bloated film. Thunderball is pure classic James Bond. Moonraker and Thunderball don't compare in my eyes.

  • 00Beast00Beast
    Posts: 4,762
    Well, Thunderball and Moonraker also compare in regards to a "larger than life" aspect. Both of them did their last film one up, by moving to a location more spectacular and rare, like underwater or in space. Also, both of them were massive successes, and still hold records for some of the highest-grossing Bond movies along with GE and CR.
  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    edited July 2011 Posts: 4,399
    Well, Thunderball and Moonraker also compare in regards to a "larger than life" aspect. Both of them did their last film one up, by moving to a location more spectacular and rare, like underwater or in space.
    correct - until You Only Live Twice came along, which one up'd Thunderball in the "larger than life" category..... TB, while exotic and grand in scale, still pales to how big YOLT was - larger sets, more action, - hell, Bond even became Japanese - which was about as believable and useless as Bond dressing up like a cowboy for absolutely no reason in MR....

    sure Moonraker was a box office smash.... but so was Die Another Day............ your point?

  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    For the record I much prefer a Fleming type Bond film. OHMSS, FRWL, CR and TLD comprise my top 4.

    But - you cant not enjoy yourself when Rog is having a whale of a time. And that whale is an altogether bigger fish in MR than it is TSWLM.
    @DoubleOhhSeven

    Well, lets put it this way..... i was scarred by Moonraker before i knew i wanted to get into film lol.... because there are movies i know how to switch my brain off to and enjoy - ie: Transformers...... but my problems with Moonraker run deeper than just looking at it through the eyes of a filmmaker at this point lol.
    Hoist by your own petard. If you admit you can watch the lamentable Transformers and enjoy it then you lose all your rights in commenting about switching your brain off. At most cinemas youre not allowed into a Michael Bay film unless you first hand you brain in at the door.

    And despite being only a member of the public rather than a 'filmmaker' I can tell you that MR hits Transformers out of the park on every level. You can say what you like about the stupid moments and the outlandish plot but MR is a quality piece of film making with every department putting in a quality shift.


    far more believable than anything MR had to offer up... and the excuse of an underwater base as opposed to umm.. A GIANT SPACE STATION THAT NO ONE ON THE PLANET KNEW WAS BEING CONSTRUCTED??? lol - that's a little odd - and terribly convenient..
    but how exactly did Stromberg plan for mankind to survive after the nuclear holocaust?
    the object was to have the planet's surface so decimated by nuclear war, that any remaining survivors would be forced to take refuge under the sea - in habitats that Stromberg would have created..

    Drax could just have sent up the radar jamming system on a satellite and then built the space station around it. The 30 or 40 other launches needed to complete it could have easily been passed off as commercial satellites.

    'in habitats Stomberg would have created'? After the world has been decimated? So how does that work then? I think you'll find the delivery dates might slip a bit for your tons of tubular steel and perspex helicopter domes Karl seeing as everyone on the planet is dead.

    We can go on back and forth all night like this if you want. Both films are preposterous and over the top, but not without a resaonable grounding in science. Which is more than YOLT with its total disregard for astronautics. I would say neither of them has many Fleming-esque moments but as pure entertainment (which you have to accept is all a lot of Bond films are) MR shades it.
  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    Posts: 4,399
    @Wizard... with Transformers I know what I'm getting into... I expected MR to be more than a dumb retred over the plot of the previous film.... that is exactly why I don't like it.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited July 2011 Posts: 15,723
    @Wizard... with Transformers I know what I'm getting into... I expected MR to be more than a dumb retred over the plot of the previous film.... that is exactly why I don't like it.
    TSWLM is a poor man's YOLT rehash... MR is also one, yes... but tops the original in the process.

  • JBFan626JBFan626
    Posts: 1,497
    @Wizard... with Transformers I know what I'm getting into... I expected MR to be more than a dumb retred over the plot of the previous film.... that is exactly why I don't like it.
    Yes and no though. While I'm not one to champion MR, you know what you're getting into when the film kicks off with a sky-dive sequence featuring Jaws and that ends with him flapping his wings and falling into a circus tent. On the contrary, the tone is a bit uneven and doesn't smoothly combine the lighter humorous side with a darker, more threatening side the way DAF does well--even though MR has it's darker moments (Bond torture, dogs chasing Corinne). But the film does stay pretty consistently over the top and basically builds and builds from Venice onward.

    To it's credit MR does have a plot. I wish I could comment on Transformers, but I have not seen the films. But everything I've read has said they are all devoid of any story and are basically a giant special effects real with explosions and loud crashing noises. Obviously I can't judge having not seen the films myself, but if that is the case, I would rather just go see fireworks, or drive down the Vegas strip, or hell, just look at the stars at night.

  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    Posts: 4,399
    Okay... but to say I can switch my brain off with Transformers (because after seeing trailers, and knowing it's a Bay movie) - compared to MR, which I saw around 1998, with no trailer or expectations... I sat down thinking it was going to be great, and I could live with a few dumb moments - but not a film packed with them, especially when I expected something different....

    By saying I should enjoy MR for what it is, then why isn't the same logic applied to DAD? - afterall, we should just switch our brains off and enjoy it right?
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