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You Only Live Twice vs. Moonraker vs. Die Another Day

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  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,723
    @haserot there is a difference between laughing WITH the film than laughing AT the film and cringing...
  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    edited July 2011 Posts: 4,399
    @DaltonCraig

    EXACTLY!.... something I can't do with either film, sorry.

    **EDIT**

    there is a reason why Bond films like FRWL, CR, and GF reside on the top of my list... while films like MR, AVTAK, and DAD reside at the very bottom.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,273
    I think it depends on the criteria one applies to the ranking. Based strictly on their - let's say 'Flemingesqueness', it's easy to drop MR, AVTAK and DAD like rotten apples from a tree. Naturally FRWL and CR crawl to the top then and as for GF, well I always tend to argue that this is the only film where the script might actually be an improvement over the novel. That said, the Bond films tend to be so much more than merely the level of Flemingesqueness they represent. E.g. not matter how much I love CR, MR has the better score, the better atmosphere, the more exotic locations and perhaps - though I'm willing to talk about this - the more impressive production design. Overall, that makes MR a finer Bond film to watch on certain days than CR. Like I said, I think it largely depends on how one establishes the ranking.
  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    Posts: 4,399
    I tend to gravitate more towards grounded thrillers, with a bit of adventure - over the films that are too over the top.... I'm not saying that I don't enjoy some of the films, but I prefer the former.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited July 2011 Posts: 11,189
    Watching DAD currently. Perhaps it's because i wasn't expecting much but it doesnt seem QUITE as horrible as I thought. Don't get me wrong it's still cheesey as hell but it's colourful and lively.

    I'm not even drunk. I don't know what's happeng to me.
  • 00Beast00Beast
    Posts: 4,762
    @BAIN123: Yeah, I somewhat got that impression the last time I watched Die Another Day. That was up to the part when Zao and Mr. Kil try to kill Jinx with the lasers. The movie was actually all right up until then, but after that scene, I braced myself for a beating. After I finished it, DAD slipped WAY down the ranks for me, where beforehand it was simply mediocre. Now it's awful.
  • PrinceKamalKhanPrinceKamalKhan Monsoon Palace, Udaipur
    Posts: 3,262
    That said, the Bond films tend to be so much more than merely the level of Flemingesqueness they represent. E.g. not matter how much I love CR, MR has the better score, the better atmosphere, the more exotic locations and perhaps - though I'm willing to talk about this - the more impressive production design. Overall, that makes MR a finer Bond film to watch on certain days than CR. Like I said, I think it largely depends on how one establishes the ranking.
    Well stated, DD. I think MR also benefits from being of a time period nearer to the classic 1960s Bond film making period than CR and the more recent Bond films have. MR still has John Barry around to score its music and is the last Bond film to benefit from the contributions of Ken Adams' production design and Bernard Lee's M.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,723
    I like all the segments of DAD... But they all feature horrible stuff. People say the Cuba section is the best... Well it ends with the painful CGI jump from Jinx... It seems DAD is an ever ending cycle of 10 minutes of good followed by 5 minutes of rubbish...
  • 00Beast00Beast
    Posts: 4,762
    @DaltonCraig007: Exactly! Another example is the scene in which Bond corners Gustav Graves and tells him that he is aware of his double identity as Colonel Moon. What started out as a really interesting scene ended when Zao came in:
    Bond: "You know I missed your sparkling personality."
    Zao: (punches Bond) "How's that for a punch line?"
    Enough said, right? Then following Bond's escape, we have the horrible ice dragster escape and the CGI surf scene. What a shame that DAD couldn't hold on to its good moment for long enough.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,723
    Honestly, how can you take the North Korean scenes seriously when it's so obvious they were filmed in the UK ?
  • 00Beast00Beast
    Posts: 4,762
    @DaltonCraig007: Haha! Yep, even more reason to dislike Die Another Day!
  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    Posts: 4,399
    @DaltonCraig

    Don't forget about the surfing and beach - all shot in Hawaii lol...

    Honestly, stuff like that doesn't bother me - its done in films a lot.... that would be the very least of DAD problems lol
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,273
    MR still has John Barry around to score its music and is the last Bond film to benefit from the contributions of Ken Adams' production design and Bernard Lee's M.
    Those three elements can easily justify a viewing of MR! There's more even. MR has one of Moore's better outings as Bond (IMO), a beautiful Bond girl in the form of Dr Goodhead (again, IMO), great locations, impressive stunt work (the free-fall), the fact that MR premièred space shuttle launches even ahead of NASA... The plot suffers from tremendous inconsistencies and is at moments incredulous to the max, but as I stated before, there's more to a Bond film than just those things.

    Take DAF. Not exactly the screenwriters' finest hour - at least in my book - but boy, there's a truckload of things to like, love and cherish about that film. For me, most Bond films should be viewed as the sum of their many parts. Each Bond film excels in at least one department. DAD, for example, though hardly my favourite Bond film, does have, I must admit, a great colour scheme. It may not seem much, but there are days, few though they are, when exactly that one element wins me over. Sure, it's a colour scheme like the ones you find in most video games, unrealistically fresh and lively, bordering on unnatural even but I'm not too embarrassed to confess that it nevertheless works the magic for me on some occasions and in very small doses.

    I suppose one might say I'm a number 1 Bond apologetic. Lowering my standards, allowing myself the indulgence of merely one or two likeable elements in a film and using them to cover up all the things I don't like, may seem like a desperate move. It might feel like I would rather empty a can of deodorant in a room full of dirt and subsequently dine in said room, than never set a foot in it at all. For some people, the room needs to be perfectly clean, almost sterile, well decorated, balanced out in terms of temperature, sunlight, odours and background music, before they will say anything positive about it. The least bit that doesn't amuse them, will result in complaints of the overall product. In my case, as long as the food's good, I don't mind a dirty floor all that much. So this is how I consider my Bonds. I allow a Bond film to be flawed because there's always at least something I enjoy. Naturally, I prefer the Bonds that properly address all my wishes and desires. So overall, CR works better for me than MR. However, MR, despite certain flaws, still has enough to offer me to justify a not so infrequent visit.

    In the end, it really does depend on how you think about what a Bond film should give you. Will you only marry a woman if she's smart, wealthy, good looking, healthy, young, a great singer and sharing your interests? Or can you marry a girl that doesn't come from money, is only so-and-so looking, wears glasses, can't cook but is pure of heart and will make a loving, caring wife and mother? It's true that we shouldn't settle for 'just average' in case of the Bonds. It's true that EON can spend the money and find the talent to give us great films, instead of good films. In a way, I'm being too easy for them now. But then let's consider this. A Bond film you hate, might be another person's favourite Bond. Rather than accuse a fan of DAD of being stupid and moronic, consider this: maybe DAD wasn't made for you, but for that person. Maybe the next Bond film will take care of you and leave the other one nervous. One thing we should have learned by now is that there are no objective criteria by which a Bond film can be scientifically judged, even if we sometimes allow ourselves to think so. I make the same mistake, complaining about QoS and thinking my arguments are solid and conclusive. Well, between debates I tend to calm down and realise I am wrong. QoS is some people's favourite Bond film. QoS was made for them, and to far lesser extend for me. That doesn't deny me the right to complain about the film, obviously, but it never gives me the right to make a fool of the other person either.

    If you are that person who loves and enjoys YOLT, MR, DAD, ... don't ever consider yourself a fool. Don't ever let other people convince you that you are. Rather, while your taste may not be in vogue (at the moment), what matters is that you have fun watching these films and forget about what anyone else thinks.
  • SirHenryLeeChaChingSirHenryLeeChaChing
    edited July 2011 Posts: 3,494
    I think the word for the many problems with MR can be summed up for me as "gags". Sight gags such as pretty much the entire Venice Bondola chase don't belong in a Bond movie. It's laden with too many and sucked the momentum that had been building from the PTS, which is one of the most disappointing and again, there's the first of many sight gags that kill MR at various times. Then you have the "Magnificent Seven" theme playing with Bond on the horse, which is a bit of a sound gag, although not at slide whistle level. Humor in Bond movies works best in more subtle ways such as the one-liners that made the Connery era much more effective. Sir Roger was also a master in delivering those quips, so why EON chose to saddle him with the kind of absurdity shown in a Matt Helm film was both pointless and unnecessary.

    For all the complaints about YOLT, when it's time to get serious we get it. When MR is supposed to get serious, we get a laser battle which belongs in Star Wars. Still, for all the problems I have with Moonraker, it still delivers much more than DAD in seriousness and entertainment value.



  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    edited July 2011 Posts: 4,399
    If you are that person who loves and enjoys YOLT, MR, DAD, ... don't ever consider yourself a fool. Don't ever let other people convince you that you are. Rather, while your taste may not be in vogue (at the moment), what matters is that you have fun watching these films and forget about what anyone else thinks.
    well said Darth...

    thats the one thing about the Bond franchise that i believe makes it so unique.... it's spanned across multiple generations, and no era of Bond film is identical to another - sure similarities may bleed over in certain areas. But each actor's time in the role brought something different and unique to the character.... when you have a franchise that is so diverse, yet universal like the Bond franchise, you're going to find people divided by certain films or eras - or united by others... i view choosing which Bond film to watch, much like going into an Ice Cream Shop, and having a wide variety of flavors to choose from...... i may go with the old reliable (connery) - but i might be in the mood for a bit of fun (moore).. or maybe on certain days i might want something with a bit of an edge (craig).. i think you get the idea..... no franchise - not Star Wars, not Indiana Jones, not Batman, Superman, or even Harry Potter can say that about themselves...... James Bond is a unique animal in the jungle of cinema - which is why i don't see it going anywhere any time soon.....

    and with that - you will find people with differing opinions...... I've never tried to be one to attack someone's opinions, by slandering them, because they like something different than me - that's their opinion, and i wouldn't like someone doing that to me...... i will be more than open and honest with my opinions towards certain actors, or certain films - but i never try to be one to direct those crosshairs towards the individual and make it into something personal..... people who do that annoy me........ if we want to have an open discussion and express our opinions in a civilized/decent manner, that is one thing..... but no one should be made to feel stupid just because their opinion differs for mine, or anyone else's...... if everyone thought the same, the world (and this site) would be boring...

    love what you wanna love, don't let anyone tell you different..... but always be respectful.

  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,723
    Fantastic posts by Dimi and haserot !! I totally agree with both of you ! :-bd =D>
  • SirHenryLeeChaChingSirHenryLeeChaChing
    Posts: 3,494
    I agree that this is the way it should be too. I can watch any of the 22 films and find scenes and moments in each that are both enjoyable and memorable. There isn't an official Bond film that I refuse to watch. Way too much bashing goes on here that doesn't need to be, and even worse, ahem, some folks seem to bash the same exact things over and over at every opportunity, including appreciation threads. I would like to see the mods do a better job of controlling this in this future.

  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    Sometimes it is the mods that do the bashing ;)
  • thelordflasheartthelordflasheart
    Posts: 1,370

    But then let's consider this. A Bond film you hate, might be another person's favourite Bond. Rather than accuse a fan of DAD of being stupid and moronic, consider this: maybe DAD wasn't made for you, but for that person. Maybe the next Bond film will take care of you and leave the other one nervous. One thing we should have learned by now is that there are no objective criteria by which a Bond film can be scientifically judged, even if we sometimes allow ourselves to think so. I make the same mistake, complaining about QoS and thinking my arguments are solid and conclusive. Well, between debates I tend to calm down and realise I am wrong. QoS is some people's favourite Bond film. QoS was made for them, and to far lesser extend for me. That doesn't deny me the right to complain about the film, obviously, but it never gives me the right to make a fool of the other person either.

    The above should be required reading for all of us (and new members) before posting here... ;-)
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,273
    I would like to see the mods do a better job of controlling this in this future.
    First world domination, then we'll look into this issue. ;;)

  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    Posts: 4,399
    @SirHenry...

    It shouldn't always be up to the mods to police and weed out the a**holes that occasionally pop up..... we as a community should be more diligent in doing that ourselves.
  • SirHenryLeeChaChingSirHenryLeeChaChing
    Posts: 3,494
    @ haserot

    I grant that it's only a few newbies, but there are some who are here all the time who do what I describe. I saw a thread, not sure if it was you, where a mod told someone who was trying to straighten someone out to settle down. I've gotten the "settle down" message twice from mods both in the old and new Forum, so I'm no angel either here and it's been my own questionable reaction to the bashing behavior that got the better of me.

    Let's just say that in the 2 Forums where I moderate, constant bashing has consequences.

  • KerimKerim Istanbul Not Constantinople
    edited July 2011 Posts: 2,629
    The title would suggest those three films are in the right order.

    Edit: Concur with Dimi's and Haserot's statements.
  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    edited July 2011 Posts: 4,399
    @ haserot

    I grant that it's only a few newbies, but there are some who are here all the time who do what I describe. I saw a thread, not sure if it was you, where a mod told someone who was trying to straighten someone out to settle down. I've gotten the "settle down" message twice from mods both in the old and new Forum, so I'm no angel either here and it's been my own questionable reaction to the bashing behavior that got the better of me.

    Let's just say that in the 2 Forums where I moderate, constant bashing has consequences.

    the only time i got the "settle down" message, was just in using of 'colorful language' lol - that is all... i remember the thread you are talking about - and yes, that guy was a little extreme, and probably deserved the reactions he was getting, but you gotta let reason win out at the end of the day.... what does arguing, especially with simpletons, get you in the end? nothing - because they are provoking the exact reaction they want out of you.... while they sit back and laugh, you get headaches..... thats the one downside to the internet - it empowers douchebags to evolve into bigger doucebags lol.... i'm beyond getting into message board fights - especially over subject I enjoy... it's not worth my time.......

    but the "class" i guess i can say, to which this board is run is top notch.... you would think boards like IMDB would be the same.... the mods do their best to keep things as civil as they can - but they are human too.. we all are.

  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Very intelligent posts by all.

    Although I think for the sake of reason we have to draw a line in the sand at people prepared to defend DAD. :)
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,273
    Very intelligent posts by all.

    Although I think for the sake of reason we have to draw a line in the sand at people prepared to defend DAD. :)
    Not sure why, friend. Even DAD has its merits and is, to some, a great Bond film. May seem strange to the lot of us but true nonetheless.
  • LudsLuds MIA
    Posts: 1,986
    Very intelligent posts by all.

    Although I think for the sake of reason we have to draw a line in the sand at people prepared to defend DAD. :)
    Dimi's right. If it wasn't for DAD, a movie so unbelievably terrible and shameful, we may not have had such a drastic re-boot.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited July 2011 Posts: 15,723
    DAD features the best Brosnan performance by a mile, Arnold's best score... Yes Dimi, DAD has it's merits. I would even say it is a good film.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,273
    Wow, DC, you're one of the few to actually like this score. I do too for that matter. The official soundtrack is a travesty, a far from justifiable selection out of an otherwise decent enough score. But the score, as heard in the film, has a couple of interesting moments. Not all of it though.
  • PrinceKamalKhanPrinceKamalKhan Monsoon Palace, Udaipur
    Posts: 3,262
    MR still has John Barry around to score its music and is the last Bond film to benefit from the contributions of Ken Adams' production design and Bernard Lee's M.
    Those three elements can easily justify a viewing of MR! There's more even. MR has one of Moore's better outings as Bond (IMO), a beautiful Bond girl in the form of Dr Goodhead (again, IMO), great locations, impressive stunt work (the free-fall), the fact that MR premièred space shuttle launches even ahead of NASA...
    Agreed, DD. I consider it Moore's best outing as Bond and Holly is my favorite secret agent Bond girl by far.
    Take DAF. Not exactly the screenwriters' finest hour - at least in my book - but boy, there's a truckload of things to like, love and cherish about that film.
    Also agree, DD. Tom Mankiewicz provided that film with some of most quotable dialogue in the series.
    In the end, it really does depend on how you think about what a Bond film should give you. Will you only marry a woman if she's smart, wealthy, good looking, healthy, young, a great singer and sharing your interests? Or can you marry a girl that doesn't come from money, is only so-and-so looking, wears glasses, can't cook but is pure of heart and will make a loving, caring wife and mother? It's true that we shouldn't settle for 'just average' in case of the Bonds. It's true that EON can spend the money and find the talent to give us great films, instead of good films. In a way, I'm being too easy for them now. But then let's consider this. A Bond film you hate, might be another person's favourite Bond. Rather than accuse a fan of DAD of being stupid and moronic, consider this: maybe DAD wasn't made for you, but for that person. Maybe the next Bond film will take care of you and leave the other one nervous. One thing we should have learned by now is that there are no objective criteria by which a Bond film can be scientifically judged, even if we sometimes allow ourselves to think so.
    More excellent points. Its good to think that certain Bond films were made for particular fans and others were made for other fans. For example, I don't think FYEO was made for me since it's the anti-MR and I'm very pro-MR. I have no dislike of the 1981 Bond film, but there are others I like much better. I don't think GE(as it stands in reality with Brosnan instead of Dalton in the lead role), AVTAK or QOS were made for me as well but I do believe TB, CR, OHMSS, TLD, YOLT, OP, FRWL and MR were very much made for me(not just me but I definitely include myself in the group of fans they were made for). It all depends on how the individual viewer connects with the particular film.
    If you are that person who loves and enjoys YOLT, MR, DAD, ... don't ever consider yourself a fool. Don't ever let other people convince you that you are. Rather, while your taste may not be in vogue (at the moment), what matters is that you have fun watching these films and forget about what anyone else thinks.
    Agreed. If it entertains you the individual viewer, that's all that really matters.

    I've read some fans wish that YOLT hadn't been made in 1967 but that EON should've made OHMSS instead or that FYEO should've been made in 1979 instead of MR. While it's certainly interesting to ponder in fan faction, I believe if either or both of those events had happened, the OHMSS and FYEO that exist in reality would've both been very different films. I believe a 1967 OHMSS might've had a happy ending and featured the Intruder rocket being launched from Piz Gloria while a 1979 FYEO would probably have been another OTT, sci-fi extravaganza in the style of TSWLM.
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