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I agree.
And to pick up on your point @jobo regards levels of western ignorance - I think this clip sums up your point. What a steaming pile of reactionary shit.
Not sure. Is this even about the western world? Sounds crazy maybe but what we are all so shocked and terrified by, these despicable killings, that's not even a fraction of the violence Muslim countries see themselves for at least since the seventies. We're all appalled here but in many countries with predominantly Muslim population they have either this kind of fundamentalist terrorism or an massively oppressive government or both. I'm reminded more of Reformation and enlightenment times. This is not fundamentalists against the West, it's fundamentalists trying to gain the helm of their religion against history. Europe t just comes in as far as we are active in the region, but maybe more so because many Muslims really seek freedom here.
What happened in Paris is unacceptable, period.
Sure, I know history and read a lot of history books. Mistakes were made and religions generally do look suspicious in many ways.
It does not explain why you should kill people that see the world different than you...... [this does not just applies to CH of course]
Which BUT comments do you mean? Here? What I read was people trying to understand, not excuse, no?
That is partly true of course. I think you misinterpreted my point slightly. I didn't say that hatred against the west is the only element behind these fundamentalist groups. However its obviuous that hatred against the west is one of the main reasons thes groups are growing and radicalizing this rapidly. That's the story about almost every criminal or extremist organization. Many recruits are not joining because they necessarily share the same values, but for other reasons: Frustration, anger, whatever... To have a shared enimy and a "reason" to do violence, can be a powerful motivation. The question raised was "how to prevent new people from joining these radical groups". And there's no doubt that hatred towards the western civilisation is one of the main issues.
@RC7:
Fox News just leaves you speechless, doesn't it. Its the definition of stupidity. Unfortunately there are much more sane and respectable people and News agencies that also are blinded by ignorance on this issue, which is far more depressing. Just take a look at this from CNN for example: Faced with facts they react with anger. Its quite extraordinary...
A shame because the Jewish community has always been a strength to France. They produced many intellectuals, artists, businessmen and politicians. They even had Jewish prime ministers. Where else in Europe can it/could it happen? Ok there was Disraeli but he had converted a long time ago.
But there was also the Dreyfus affair, not surprising at the time. What was outstanding was that it was uncovers and Dreyfus exonerated, only in France possible.
A very good and balanced post.
No one is suggesting that all Muslims are evil but hand wringing liberals in fear of offending the wider Muslim community in the west desperately contorting themselves to come up with any excuse for these actions does no one any good. The undeniable common link between all these attacks is Islam, be it a perverted version of Islam or not, and rather than shy away from this we need to address it head on. The first step to tackling a problem is to admit you have one and so I would just ask what is it about Islam in particular that makes the conditions ripe for people to hold others lives, and more crucially their own lives so cheaply?
It's deeply shocking to me that people can consider religion to be above their own self preservation (which is the strongest instinct in any animal - which is all we are at the end of the day) yet we are told we should embrace people who have a faith rather than consider it a mental illness.
Many people are bipolar or schizophrenic but only a minority go on to harm themselves or others. But we don't ignore all the other people with this illness and claim they are completely healthy; we try to treat them also.
Where at one of end of the spectrum of mental illness you have the harmless person who mumbles to themselves in the supermarket or has to arrange their soup tins in alphabetical order on the shelf at the other you have a serial killer or someone who kills themselves. So it is with religion - at one end you have the kindly person who believes lighting a candle and kneeling before a statue will be enough to cure their grandmothers dodgy hip and at the other you have the suicide bomber. But it's essentially the same disease.
Religion is a lassitude of the mind and should be recognised as such and religious people should be pitied and treated rather than indulged and have their beliefs ring fenced from ridicule. When you ignore chemotherapy because you think prayer will do a better job or you can't write the word 'Mohammed' without writing '(PBUH)' after it for fear of burning in hell for all eternity then you should be given psychiatric help not funding to allow you to build another school to indoctrinate more children with this garbage.
Just because millions of people think something doesn't automatically mean it's not a load of bollocks. The only way we ever progress is by brave individuals willing to buck the trend of the prevailing herd. If scientists had not persisted with researching bacteria we'd all still be washing in sewage and dying of the plague - even though at that time most people thought the Black Death was a scourge from god. Would humanity have been better off indulging those people and leaving them to allow diseased rats to run through their houses?
When did he say that?
Spot on about religion, odd how this has become again such a force. But then so has nationalism which shares many of religion's characteristics.
A living example to us all
Wallace Ed Miliband is going to be our new Prime Minister in the UK! He'll be our first Jewish prime minister, albeit secular.
There is definitely anti-semitism in the Muslim world, perhaps more so than in Europe at large. But it's a bit rich for Europe to go round lecturing others on anti-semitism, seeing that most European countries were either actively engaged in or simply stood by and did nothing during the holocaust.
Incorrect. Benjamin Disraeli.
That was a long time ago and it showed both the worst and the best of France. "J'accuse" by Émile Zola is still an amazing text.
http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/on-the-mechanics-of-defamation
Fair enough.
Saying that Islam is not at fault as an ideology for Islamist terrorism, it is like saying the Catholic Church is not homophobic because some countries where Catholics are the majority like Spain have allowed gay marriage.
I am sorry you felt attacked, but there is a world outside MI6 where life goes on, and the CH affair is now about the amazing amount of people that got together and of course that daft French comedian who is of the Muslim persuasion who sees any problem as a chance to attention.
Religion is supposed to bring the best out of people, sadly the same applies to the worst in people.
I don'tknow what you are refering to here. Who have been coming up with excuses for these actions? Certainly no one on this forum. And the thought that the only reason to defend Islam as an ideology is for fear of offending the Muslim community... you are hilarious! :) What is important is to understand the underlying reasons for theze actions in a broader perspective. To claim its all about a "disease" called religion is certainly not the way to do it. Religion, as all ideologies, can be used to promote both peace and violence. That's why we need to know why some poeple choose to use it for the latter.
The general notion amongst antireligious seems to be that all religious scriptures have to interpreted in a fundamentalistic fasion. That in fact makes you just as fundamentalist as the very people you criticize. Its simplistic thoughts like these which leads to the violence in the first place, so congratulations...
I have lived most of my life near Muslims and they work as hard as anybody I know. And yes some of them are not so pleasurable to have around. The same applies however to the people of my ethnic/cultural background. I refuse to blame a large group for their believes based on the actions of a few nutters.
That said most religions share a very bloody & not very open minded history and are full of ridiculous statements by their religious leaders.
I don't know enough about Islam but there's something about this comment that does not seem right. If I'm not mistaken, there is nothing in Islam that tells people to go around killing people indiscriminantly with no reason, at least not any more so than 'an eye for an eye'. That's like saying I am to blame for being a man, because most crimes are committed by men. Correlation is not causation.
As I've said before, Islam has been hijacked and bastardized by some fundamentalists (such as Wahabbists). It's an easy target because it's a religion that has been marginalised since 911 and even before that.
The question to ask is what causes a small number of people (compared to the vast number of peaceful muslims) to gravitate to this violent brand of ideology, including Europeans who were born into other religions and then convert to go fight with ISIL and the rest against the west. That is the question. What is causing the gravitation to this kind of ideology. I don't know the answer, but that is certainly the question.
I never said anything about this, or shedding doubts about it. I work and live in England and thus I live and work near/with Muslims. I had Muslims as housemates, I also have Muslim friends. In my years at universities, I also met many Muslim French. Their adhesion to religious observance vary widely, from fairly strict observance to downright disregard (because yes, there are many that are very secular).
There are things in the Koran, just like in other holy books (the Bible for instance) that does give instruction on when and why it is legitimate to commit murder in the name of god. Of course, mainstream practitioners usually disregard the faith. The problem is that a number of these views have become more mainstream among Muslims, at least in some parts of the world. Heck, even in France there has been incident of kids refusing to respect the minute of silence for the death of the cartoonists because they had insulted the Prophet! This is not to say that we should generalize. But we cannot ignore that the murders were an act of religious devotion against an act that is considered blasphemy beyond the narrow interpretation of the terrorists.
ANd lets face it the Arabic world is not the greatest example of a democracy in action, neither by the way is the US goverment currently that gets hijacked by the rich and superwealthy.
Ok, thanks for clarifying. Fair enough, so there may be some elements of the book that call for murder in the name of god.
RE: The elements of those views that may have become mainstream among some Muslims, as I said earlier, the question to ask is why?
I'm not Muslim, but if I was I'd sure has hell (no pun) be very upset at how my religion has been taken to the cleaners since 911. I'd also be pissed at how many muslim countries were being exploited. Not enough to go around randomly killing people but nevertheless suitably pissed, maybe just enough to not respect a minute of slience for the death of the cartoonists who were rubbing salt in the tender wounds.
As I said in an earlier post, 15 of the 19 hijackers on 911 were from Saudi Arabia, home of wahabbism. Despite this, Obama bowed to the Saudi king on his first visit to see him. The Saudis are currently, through the manipulation of the oil price, putting several businesses under in the US & Canada, as well as in the Middle East and Russia, to retain their grip on oil supply. That is the country where women have to cover up. That is the country where they cut your hand off for crimes.
No one says anything because we need their oil. And many ignorant twits in the west think all Muslims are the same. They're not.
My point is more proper analysis of the problems are required, and it's not being done because the answers will not be convenient and may hit close to home. It's easier to slander a whole religion.
Saw your reply first now. So it was all down to a retweet twitter. Thought so... The most shocking about this link is Harris' statement. Its absolutely no wonder why it caused some reactions.
The Pakistani and Bangladeshi communities in the UK unfortunately come predominantly from two of the most backward and poor areas in each respective country - they are not representative of their home countries. Bangladesh is surprisingly tolerant and secular (although there is pressure from Saudi-sponsored Wahabiist doctrine) but the Sylheti Bangladeshis are notoriously conservative and in the UK tend towards very weird behaviour, such as birkas and hijab etc, which are actually pretty much alien to Bangladesh.
Bengali Islam is traditionally pretty peaceful, with Muslims and Hindus generally having lived peacefully alongside each other for centuries, until we British stirred up communal tensions and partioned Bengal along religious lines.
The reason we lilly-livered liberals are trying to avoid conflating 'Islam' with 'terror' is because firstly, we know that's not true, and secondly, that is exactly what the jihadis want. We must all persist (as must ordinary Muslims) in making the vital distinction between peaceful Muslims (even those we might strongly disagree with on many issues) and murderers.
We must also recognise that much of the anger directed at the West around the world (and it's not just from the Muslim world) is based on legitemate grievances, including waging stupid wars that have killed tens of thousands of innocents across the Middle East, Afghanistan and elsewhere.