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I fully agree @Getafix. As a matter of fact, that is already happening. Who would have guessed that Muslim countries like Jordan, United Arab Emirates and Qatar would be fighting with western NATO forces during the Arab revolutions in countries like Libya a couple of years ago? That they would pro-actively use their Air Forces together with the USA?
Who would have guessed that Iran and the USA starting negotiations on how to tackle their "common problem" regarding Islamic State terrorism? Not to mention countries like Saudi-Arabia.
So I agree with you. This can only enhance and speed up the creation of a way more moderated and peaceful Islam. Moderated Muslims are standing up more and more against these terrorists. A wonderful sign.
But the more the top 5% wealthiest of this planet suck the financial life out fo the rest of us, the more you will fuel hatred of every kind.
Very well said. I couldn't agree more with this.
It's fascinating reading about different responses to Western colonialism across Asia, and how at pretty much stage the West has helped undermine moderates and strengthen the hand of the lunatics. The most recent examples would of course be the insane neo-colonial expeditions in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Thanks, I will take a look at it. I suggest also that the self-serving intervention in Libya a few years back (primarily instigated by the UK & France) was just as damaging.
Great stuff @Getafix !
I read this (along with Huntingdon's 'Clash Of Civilizations') - it's a great book that helps with understanding extremism in our modern world.
Aujourd'hui et pour toujours , nous sommes tous Charlie!
Huntingdon's Clash of Civilizations is hands down one of the best books I've ever read. I read it two years ago and the current Ukrainian debacle is so predictable to anyone who has read it. Brilliant, seminal work.
Totally agree. At the time everyone in the UK was slating Obama for holding back from intervening in Libya. It seemed like such an 'obvious' candidate for more Western adventurism. Look how that turned out so well.
Our leaders really are utterly retarded. There inability to learn basic historical lessons and stumble into every trap laid for them is truly astonishing. I love how the conspiracy theorists always miss the biggest conspiracy of all - the conspiracy of stupidity which seems to govern most Western (US and UK certainly) foreign policy.
Totally agreed. That idiocy is currently at play again with Ukraine. I hope that situation resolves itself without further craziness, but it's not likely sadly. At the end of the day, it's all about special interests nudging Govt. policy along. It's all tactical and there's really nothing strategic about any of it, which is the sad part.
Without Samuel Huntingdon and that book I would never have passed Anthropology. It is seminal.
But for some reason or another, our 'leaders' (a misnomer if ever there was one) fail to consult such thinkers...
I'll have to check it out. Gonna order it now.
or bring back the guillotine, and publicly lop their heads off.... they can't get into heaven when they've been beheaded (according to their beliefs).. certain Russian outfits were feared during the Afghan war for doing it to those muslims they captured..
I've been meaning to take a look at this. A friend of mine said it was very thorough, but he felt the author failed to see any merit in anything the West had done, in part denouncing secularism and liberalism. Did you find that?
Doubtless this went down wonderfully well with the locals who were, we seem to forget, fighting an occupying communist army.
We celebrate these kinds of actions (just as some in the US are celebrating 'American Sniper' Chris Kyle as a national hero) and then wonder why large parts of the rest of the world hate us.
Somehow Western aggression and war crimes are acceptable but any retaliation comes as a complete surprise. We are simply reaping what we've sown for decades/centuries.
so we should just bend over and take it with smiles on our faces?
No, but some understanding of context is in order. This whole thing did not start on Sep 11, 2001, which a lot of people (I'm not saying you) use as their starting reference point. It goes back a lot longer and has a much deeper context. Ironically, it is ISIL that is doing the beheading these days. Like begats like, which is the problem here.
Precisely. @Haserot I am not saying we do nothing. But without historical perspective we learn nothing. And if we keep on blundering into disastrous imperialist military adventures we will only help foment more hatred. Hatred is of course what the jihadis feed off. Their supporters are driven largely by hatred, and if we respond with hatred and ever more violence, we simply walk into their trap - it's exactly what they want.
But my point is also that we lack awareness in the West of the genuine and completely legitemate grievances that people elsewhere hold against us. I'm not saying this justifies or in any way excuses terrorism (although, it has to be said, that one person's 'terrorist' is often throughout history someone else's legitemate freedom fighter), but without any understanding of the origins and causes of Islamic extremism then it's very difficult to combat it.
I doubt you'd advocate just chopping off their heads is going to get us very far in the long run...
Totally barbarism, masquerading as Islam.
I do hope that the West do not turn on our Islamic communities, as that is what the Jihads want.
I certainly would. As another organisation that, like Islam, helps to retard human progress with its laughable teachings its part of the problem and I'd prefer if they keep it shut on days like this. This is an atrocity against ridicule of religion so I'd rather they keep their platitudes to themselves.
I admire your optimism. Its been over 13 years since 9/11 and they havent done anything yet. What makes you think they will start now?
Its all well and good for everyone to trot out the old line that its all fuelled by western imperialism (and that is no doubt true in the middle east) but what has it got to do with some guy born and bred in Bradford who lives a pretty decent life compared to the average Afghan goat herder?
Anyway I dont think this thread should be derailed by a debate about religion. It is more about our right to stick two fingers up to these people and to say what we think so:
Some classic Iannucci laughing at these idiots ('Set fire to the enemy's flag. Jump up and down on it thus extinguishing the flame. Relight flag. Repeat as necessary.') while simultaneously taking the piss out of the hysteria on the war on terror:
And just to show I support the 'I may not like what you say' quote wholeheartedly here's some of the abominable Mrs Brown's Boys for a bit of balance. Should stuff like this be made? No. But do people have the right to make it? Absolutely. (Although if turning the country over to Sharia law would stop another series of MBB then where do I sign up for my beard and silly dress?)
Je suis Charlie
If you imagine that these jihadist nutters were acting solely in response to the cartoons, then I think you're wrong. There is a whole context of grievance (real and imagined) which feeds the jihadist mind-set. People don't become skilled terrorist hitmen solely in response to cartoons. The jihadist camps where these men will have been trained are not set up solely to take out French satirical cartoonists.
All I'm saying is that this attack needs to be seen in a wider context, and that context, I would argue, includes a history of profoundly destructive Western meddling and intervention in Arab and Muslim countries, particularly in the Middle East.
I agree completely. It was a barbarous act, and there will, sadly be more, but I agree that this is much more than about cartoons.
That may be so but there is no excuse for the murders and in the end, it is an attack on free speech. They were killed because they laughed at God, or a specific faith, their murderers acted out of religious devotion.
On this I think everyone is in complete agreement.
Well, I expect the specific reason the attackers would give will be that the magazine had shown depictions of Mohammad, which is forbidden under Islamic law. I doubt it's the satire or poking fun in itself that forms the justification in their minds. Of course it's insane, but I think that's where they'll have been coming from.
I have personally always been rather uncertain as to the rights and wrongs of the Mohammad cartoons. While on the one hand, I absolutely support the principle of free speech, I have also found there to be something slightly juvenile and distasteful about the peristance in publishing these specifically Muslim-baiting cartoons. It seems to have been a perculiarly French and Dutch obsession. There are, in my view, cleverer and less offensive ways to poke fun at Islam. The Mohammad cartoons seem almost designed to cause offence (which I think was part of Charlie Hebdo's raison d'etre). It forms part of that particularly French tradition of virulent anti-clericalism and almost fundamentalist secularism, in which every religious symbol must be undermined and ridiculed. It's not a tradition that I find particularly sympathetic, but I understand its origins and certainly don't think it justifies this kind of attack in any way.
The cartoon thing though, which has been running for a while, does seem to have provoked a cycle of rather pointless retaliation. Not sure really what was achieved by their publication. There are I think more important ways and places in which defend free speech than through publication of cartoons which (probably not uncoincidentally) also happen to offend large numbers of ordinary Muslims.
I'm in danger of conflating a number of complex issues here, and please don't take this as in any way a justification for what's happened in Paris. My thoughts on the cartoons predate yesterday's horrific attack, which is clearly an act of utterly unjustifiable psychotic savagery.