CharlieHebdo

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  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,718
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32409253

    Still another death related to terrorism.
  • Posts: 15,125
    patb wrote: »

    because there is nothing wrong with Islam. Or Christianity. Or indeed any faith.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited April 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Fundamentally the problem with associating oneself so closely with one's religion is that one is associating very closely with an ideology that is by definition, 'faith' based, rather than 'fact' based. So when one's world view is so wrapped up in something that is not based in fact, everything starts to go nutty.

    That's why those religions that are very stringent and absolute in their concepts and beliefs scare the living hell (no pun intended) out of me.

    I mean, how can someone hold on so dearly to something that is just a complex self serving narrative without any substantiation (apart from the case that other like minded people through the ages have also held onto it)? It just doesn't make sense.

    All damn (forgive me) religions need to be taken with a pinch of salt at the very least.

  • Posts: 7,653
    @bondjames what you describe comes darn close to politics as well, look how it defines people in their thoughts and acts. They actually do vote against their own interest simply because they can be blind to any faults their candidate or party has....
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Absolutely @SaintMark. Same applies to nationalism /patriotism or family rules/traditions in a way. Objectivity takes a back seat in all cases.
  • edited April 2015 Posts: 15,125
    bondjames wrote: »
    Absolutely @SaintMark. Same applies to nationalism /patriotism or family rules/traditions in a way. Objectivity takes a back seat in all cases.

    It is true of every ideology... but no ideology gets a free pass as religion does.
  • Posts: 7,653
    Ludovico wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Absolutely @SaintMark. Same applies to nationalism /patriotism or family rules/traditions in a way. Objectivity takes a back seat in all cases.

    It is true of every ideology... but no ideology gets a free pass as religion does.

    I would disagree with that as politics and religion both have one thing in common, power and as such both get away with too much all in excuse of faults being covered up because it is better for the greater good. The good generally being self-serving.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited April 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Ludovico wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Absolutely @SaintMark. Same applies to nationalism /patriotism or family rules/traditions in a way. Objectivity takes a back seat in all cases.

    It is true of every ideology... but no ideology gets a free pass as religion does.

    It's certainly true that religion and politics get the most attention and have the most impact (for the bad).

    However, religion, politics, nationalism/patriotism and family rules/traditions are all very much 'faith based' or handed down through the ages, which makes all of them especially dangerous. Other ideologies (as far as I can tell) are learned and so probably have some basis in fact, but these in particular are sort of default ideologies for most people (they are sort of born with it) and so are deeply ingrained and harder to shake off or view objectively and dispassionately.
  • Posts: 15,125
    SaintMark wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Absolutely @SaintMark. Same applies to nationalism /patriotism or family rules/traditions in a way. Objectivity takes a back seat in all cases.

    It is true of every ideology... but no ideology gets a free pass as religion does.

    I would disagree with that as politics and religion both have one thing in common, power and as such both get away with too much all in excuse of faults being covered up because it is better for the greater good. The good generally being self-serving.

    But political ideologies are criticized, at least in Western democracies, and nobody is offended if someone ridicules a political belief, whether it comes from the Left or the Right. Now with religions, a lot of people will use "well, that is my faith" as an excuse for holding backward beliefs... Or to ask for refrain from criticism, mockery or what have you.
  • Campbell2Campbell2 Epsilon Rho Rho house, Bending State University
    edited April 2015 Posts: 299
    Ludovico wrote: »
    SaintMark wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Absolutely @SaintMark. Same applies to nationalism /patriotism or family rules/traditions in a way. Objectivity takes a back seat in all cases.

    It is true of every ideology... but no ideology gets a free pass as religion does.

    I would disagree with that as politics and religion both have one thing in common, power and as such both get away with too much all in excuse of faults being covered up because it is better for the greater good. The good generally being self-serving.

    But political ideologies are criticized, at least in Western democracies, and nobody is offended if someone ridicules a political belief, whether it comes from the Left or the Right. Now with religions, a lot of people will use "well, that is my faith" as an excuse for holding backward beliefs... Or to ask for refrain from criticism, mockery or what have you.

    Don't say that! Politics has become a real shambles, today you meet people with "convictions" you'd only have met in an asylum just a decade ago. All of them vocal beyond belief about their obsessions and deeply insulted when you call em out. Politics is the religion of the pompous classes now.
  • Posts: 15,125
    Campbell2 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    SaintMark wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Absolutely @SaintMark. Same applies to nationalism /patriotism or family rules/traditions in a way. Objectivity takes a back seat in all cases.

    It is true of every ideology... but no ideology gets a free pass as religion does.

    I would disagree with that as politics and religion both have one thing in common, power and as such both get away with too much all in excuse of faults being covered up because it is better for the greater good. The good generally being self-serving.

    But political ideologies are criticized, at least in Western democracies, and nobody is offended if someone ridicules a political belief, whether it comes from the Left or the Right. Now with religions, a lot of people will use "well, that is my faith" as an excuse for holding backward beliefs... Or to ask for refrain from criticism, mockery or what have you.

    Don't say that! Politics has become a real shambles, today you meet people with "convictions" you'd only have met in an asylum just a decade ago. All of them vocal beyond belief about their obsessions and deeply insulted when you call em out. Politics is the religion of the pompous classes now.

    And yet you can still make fun of politicians in caricatures or in comedy shows.
  • Campbell2Campbell2 Epsilon Rho Rho house, Bending State University
    Posts: 299
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Campbell2 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    SaintMark wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Absolutely @SaintMark. Same applies to nationalism /patriotism or family rules/traditions in a way. Objectivity takes a back seat in all cases.

    It is true of every ideology... but no ideology gets a free pass as religion does.

    I would disagree with that as politics and religion both have one thing in common, power and as such both get away with too much all in excuse of faults being covered up because it is better for the greater good. The good generally being self-serving.

    But political ideologies are criticized, at least in Western democracies, and nobody is offended if someone ridicules a political belief, whether it comes from the Left or the Right. Now with religions, a lot of people will use "well, that is my faith" as an excuse for holding backward beliefs... Or to ask for refrain from criticism, mockery or what have you.

    Don't say that! Politics has become a real shambles, today you meet people with "convictions" you'd only have met in an asylum just a decade ago. All of them vocal beyond belief about their obsessions and deeply insulted when you call em out. Politics is the religion of the pompous classes now.

    And yet you can still make fun of politicians in caricatures or in comedy shows.


    True. But the number of people who feel entitled to their own form of paranoia once you step on their ideological toes is growing. And especially the whiny, self-pitying sort loves to celebrate their own victim status while doing their best to make life for everybody else just as miserable as they feel. That sort of thing, you seldom get that in a religious context, that's very much a political style today.
  • edited April 2015 Posts: 7,507
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Campbell2 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    SaintMark wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Absolutely @SaintMark. Same applies to nationalism /patriotism or family rules/traditions in a way. Objectivity takes a back seat in all cases.

    It is true of every ideology... but no ideology gets a free pass as religion does.

    I would disagree with that as politics and religion both have one thing in common, power and as such both get away with too much all in excuse of faults being covered up because it is better for the greater good. The good generally being self-serving.

    But political ideologies are criticized, at least in Western democracies, and nobody is offended if someone ridicules a political belief, whether it comes from the Left or the Right. Now with religions, a lot of people will use "well, that is my faith" as an excuse for holding backward beliefs... Or to ask for refrain from criticism, mockery or what have you.

    Don't say that! Politics has become a real shambles, today you meet people with "convictions" you'd only have met in an asylum just a decade ago. All of them vocal beyond belief about their obsessions and deeply insulted when you call em out. Politics is the religion of the pompous classes now.

    And yet you can still make fun of politicians in caricatures or in comedy shows.


    Well that is not entirely true. Many epople have been prosecuted or imprisoned for ridiculing their political leaders around the world. Try to raise this argument in North Korea for example...

    And religion and religious practice is ridiculed. How paople react varies a lot. Some are badly offended, somebody are not. To claim no religious people can take a joke, while every politician can would be... well... pretty convenient if your objective is to slam religion...
  • edited April 2015 Posts: 15,125
    jobo wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Campbell2 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    SaintMark wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Absolutely @SaintMark. Same applies to nationalism /patriotism or family rules/traditions in a way. Objectivity takes a back seat in all cases.

    It is true of every ideology... but no ideology gets a free pass as religion does.

    I would disagree with that as politics and religion both have one thing in common, power and as such both get away with too much all in excuse of faults being covered up because it is better for the greater good. The good generally being self-serving.

    But political ideologies are criticized, at least in Western democracies, and nobody is offended if someone ridicules a political belief, whether it comes from the Left or the Right. Now with religions, a lot of people will use "well, that is my faith" as an excuse for holding backward beliefs... Or to ask for refrain from criticism, mockery or what have you.

    Don't say that! Politics has become a real shambles, today you meet people with "convictions" you'd only have met in an asylum just a decade ago. All of them vocal beyond belief about their obsessions and deeply insulted when you call em out. Politics is the religion of the pompous classes now.

    And yet you can still make fun of politicians in caricatures or in comedy shows.


    Well that is not entirely true. Many epople have been prosecuted or imprisoned for ridiculing their political leaders around the world. Try to raise this argument in North Korea for example...

    And religion and religious practice is ridiculed. How paople react varies a lot. Some are badly offended, somebody are not. To claim no religious people can take a joke, while every politician can would be... well... pretty convenient if your objective is to slam religion...

    Hence I said in Western democracies, not the world. For North Korea, it is pretty much a theocracy, as their leader is godly. The granddad of their leader is actually an eternal president!

    I am not saying no religious people can take a joke or that every politician can. I am saying religions often get a free pass, religious faith is used as some kind of shield against criticism or mockery. I have heard and read a lot of victim blaming for the disgusting murders of the Charlie Hebdo cartoonists.
  • edited April 2015 Posts: 7,507
    Ludovico wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Campbell2 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    SaintMark wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Absolutely @SaintMark. Same applies to nationalism /patriotism or family rules/traditions in a way. Objectivity takes a back seat in all cases.

    It is true of every ideology... but no ideology gets a free pass as religion does.

    I would disagree with that as politics and religion both have one thing in common, power and as such both get away with too much all in excuse of faults being covered up because it is better for the greater good. The good generally being self-serving.

    But political ideologies are criticized, at least in Western democracies, and nobody is offended if someone ridicules a political belief, whether it comes from the Left or the Right. Now with religions, a lot of people will use "well, that is my faith" as an excuse for holding backward beliefs... Or to ask for refrain from criticism, mockery or what have you.

    Don't say that! Politics has become a real shambles, today you meet people with "convictions" you'd only have met in an asylum just a decade ago. All of them vocal beyond belief about their obsessions and deeply insulted when you call em out. Politics is the religion of the pompous classes now.

    And yet you can still make fun of politicians in caricatures or in comedy shows.


    Well that is not entirely true. Many epople have been prosecuted or imprisoned for ridiculing their political leaders around the world. Try to raise this argument in North Korea for example...

    And religion and religious practice is ridiculed. How paople react varies a lot. Some are badly offended, somebody are not. To claim no religious people can take a joke, while every politician can would be... well... pretty convenient if your objective is to slam religion...

    Hence I said in Western democracies, not the world. For North Korea, it is pretty much a theocracy, as their leader is godly. The granddad of their leader is actually an eternal president!

    I am not saying no religious people can take a joke or that every politician can. I am saying religions often get a free pass, religious faith is used as some kind of shield against criticism or mockery. I have heard and read a lot of victim blaming for the disgusting murders of the Charlie Hebdo cartoonists.


    Sorry, I missed that clause in your post. As for your general comment, I am not so sure there is a major difference. Deeds done as a result of political conviction often get a free pass as well. Acts like the Iraq war ("in the name of democracy") or the Vietnam war ("against communism") are still defended in many circles. And that is just the tip of the iceberg...
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited April 2015 Posts: 23,883
    jobo wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Campbell2 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    SaintMark wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Absolutely @SaintMark. Same applies to nationalism /patriotism or family rules/traditions in a way. Objectivity takes a back seat in all cases.

    It is true of every ideology... but no ideology gets a free pass as religion does.

    I would disagree with that as politics and religion both have one thing in common, power and as such both get away with too much all in excuse of faults being covered up because it is better for the greater good. The good generally being self-serving.

    But political ideologies are criticized, at least in Western democracies, and nobody is offended if someone ridicules a political belief, whether it comes from the Left or the Right. Now with religions, a lot of people will use "well, that is my faith" as an excuse for holding backward beliefs... Or to ask for refrain from criticism, mockery or what have you.

    Don't say that! Politics has become a real shambles, today you meet people with "convictions" you'd only have met in an asylum just a decade ago. All of them vocal beyond belief about their obsessions and deeply insulted when you call em out. Politics is the religion of the pompous classes now.

    And yet you can still make fun of politicians in caricatures or in comedy shows.


    Well that is not entirely true. Many epople have been prosecuted or imprisoned for ridiculing their political leaders around the world. Try to raise this argument in North Korea for example...

    And religion and religious practice is ridiculed. How paople react varies a lot. Some are badly offended, somebody are not. To claim no religious people can take a joke, while every politician can would be... well... pretty convenient if your objective is to slam religion...

    Hence I said in Western democracies, not the world. For North Korea, it is pretty much a theocracy, as their leader is godly. The granddad of their leader is actually an eternal president!

    I am not saying no religious people can take a joke or that every politician can. I am saying religions often get a free pass, religious faith is used as some kind of shield against criticism or mockery. I have heard and read a lot of victim blaming for the disgusting murders of the Charlie Hebdo cartoonists.


    Sorry, I missed that clause in your post. As for your general comment, I am not so sure there is a major difference. Deeds done as a result of political conviction often get a free pass as well. Acts like the Iraq war ("in the name of democracy") or the Vietnam war ("against communism") are still defended in many circles. And that is just the tip of the iceberg...

    Agreed.....and Nationalism/Patriotism as well. The Iraq War was in response to a perceived trumped up national security threat which apparently justified a 'pre-emptive' attack, massive bombing campaign (remember Shock and Awe?) & invasion of a sovereign nation state. It was done as a nation was scared after 911 - with powerful & connected special interests cynically manipulating the frightened mass population under the banner of the 'Flag' for nefarious purposes. Some saw through it, but most did not. As with religion, irrational fear was the driving force for this catastrophic debacle (fear of attack rather than fear of a painful afterlife)
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,801
    bondjames wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Campbell2 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    SaintMark wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Absolutely @SaintMark. Same applies to nationalism /patriotism or family rules/traditions in a way. Objectivity takes a back seat in all cases.

    It is true of every ideology... but no ideology gets a free pass as religion does.

    I would disagree with that as politics and religion both have one thing in common, power and as such both get away with too much all in excuse of faults being covered up because it is better for the greater good. The good generally being self-serving.

    But political ideologies are criticized, at least in Western democracies, and nobody is offended if someone ridicules a political belief, whether it comes from the Left or the Right. Now with religions, a lot of people will use "well, that is my faith" as an excuse for holding backward beliefs... Or to ask for refrain from criticism, mockery or what have you.

    Don't say that! Politics has become a real shambles, today you meet people with "convictions" you'd only have met in an asylum just a decade ago. All of them vocal beyond belief about their obsessions and deeply insulted when you call em out. Politics is the religion of the pompous classes now.

    And yet you can still make fun of politicians in caricatures or in comedy shows.


    Well that is not entirely true. Many epople have been prosecuted or imprisoned for ridiculing their political leaders around the world. Try to raise this argument in North Korea for example...

    And religion and religious practice is ridiculed. How paople react varies a lot. Some are badly offended, somebody are not. To claim no religious people can take a joke, while every politician can would be... well... pretty convenient if your objective is to slam religion...

    Hence I said in Western democracies, not the world. For North Korea, it is pretty much a theocracy, as their leader is godly. The granddad of their leader is actually an eternal president!

    I am not saying no religious people can take a joke or that every politician can. I am saying religions often get a free pass, religious faith is used as some kind of shield against criticism or mockery. I have heard and read a lot of victim blaming for the disgusting murders of the Charlie Hebdo cartoonists.


    Sorry, I missed that clause in your post. As for your general comment, I am not so sure there is a major difference. Deeds done as a result of political conviction often get a free pass as well. Acts like the Iraq war ("in the name of democracy") or the Vietnam war ("against communism") are still defended in many circles. And that is just the tip of the iceberg...

    Agreed.....and Nationalism/Patriotism as well. The Iraq War was in response to a perceived trumped up national security threat which apparently justified a 'pre-emptive' attack, massive bombing campaign (remember Shock and Awe?) & invasion of a sovereign nation state. It was done as a nation was scared after 911 - with powerful & connected special interests cynically manipulating the frightened mass population under the banner of the 'Flag' for nefarious purposes. Some saw through it, but most did not. As with religion, irrational fear was the driving force for this catastrophic debacle (fear of attack rather than fear of a painful afterlife)
    @bondjames nails it.
  • edited April 2015 Posts: 7,507
    chrisisall wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Campbell2 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    SaintMark wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Absolutely @SaintMark. Same applies to nationalism /patriotism or family rules/traditions in a way. Objectivity takes a back seat in all cases.

    It is true of every ideology... but no ideology gets a free pass as religion does.

    I would disagree with that as politics and religion both have one thing in common, power and as such both get away with too much all in excuse of faults being covered up because it is better for the greater good. The good generally being self-serving.

    But political ideologies are criticized, at least in Western democracies, and nobody is offended if someone ridicules a political belief, whether it comes from the Left or the Right. Now with religions, a lot of people will use "well, that is my faith" as an excuse for holding backward beliefs... Or to ask for refrain from criticism, mockery or what have you.

    Don't say that! Politics has become a real shambles, today you meet people with "convictions" you'd only have met in an asylum just a decade ago. All of them vocal beyond belief about their obsessions and deeply insulted when you call em out. Politics is the religion of the pompous classes now.

    And yet you can still make fun of politicians in caricatures or in comedy shows.


    Well that is not entirely true. Many epople have been prosecuted or imprisoned for ridiculing their political leaders around the world. Try to raise this argument in North Korea for example...

    And religion and religious practice is ridiculed. How paople react varies a lot. Some are badly offended, somebody are not. To claim no religious people can take a joke, while every politician can would be... well... pretty convenient if your objective is to slam religion...

    Hence I said in Western democracies, not the world. For North Korea, it is pretty much a theocracy, as their leader is godly. The granddad of their leader is actually an eternal president!

    I am not saying no religious people can take a joke or that every politician can. I am saying religions often get a free pass, religious faith is used as some kind of shield against criticism or mockery. I have heard and read a lot of victim blaming for the disgusting murders of the Charlie Hebdo cartoonists.


    Sorry, I missed that clause in your post. As for your general comment, I am not so sure there is a major difference. Deeds done as a result of political conviction often get a free pass as well. Acts like the Iraq war ("in the name of democracy") or the Vietnam war ("against communism") are still defended in many circles. And that is just the tip of the iceberg...

    Agreed.....and Nationalism/Patriotism as well. The Iraq War was in response to a perceived trumped up national security threat which apparently justified a 'pre-emptive' attack, massive bombing campaign (remember Shock and Awe?) & invasion of a sovereign nation state. It was done as a nation was scared after 911 - with powerful & connected special interests cynically manipulating the frightened mass population under the banner of the 'Flag' for nefarious purposes. Some saw through it, but most did not. As with religion, irrational fear was the driving force for this catastrophic debacle (fear of attack rather than fear of a painful afterlife)
    @bondjames nails it.


    Indeed!
  • Posts: 4,617
    is it too much to ask for an explanation as to why God decided to kill around 3000 people a few days ago in Nepal. I always find it amazing the religion seeks to offer comfort at such times and many people flock to the church (or whats left of it) to pray but no discussion about why God created the earthquake in the first place.
  • Posts: 4,617
    re Nationalism, yes, it comes close to religion in certain areas. Rational thought and logic goes out of the window when a flag with certain colours is waved and the pressure to conform is stupendous. As with religion, people with power use and abuse nationalism for the benefit of their own agenda.
  • Posts: 7,507
    patb wrote: »
    is it too much to ask for an explanation as to why God decided to kill around 3000 people a few days ago in Nepal. I always find it amazing the religion seeks to offer comfort at such times and many people flock to the church (or whats left of it) to pray but no discussion about why God created the earthquake in the first place.


    It is a common myth it seems that religions claim their god controls every action or event on Earth. Some religious people believe this, yes, but not the majority.
  • Posts: 4,617
    It comes with the territory surely?
    "defintion - (in certain other religions) a superhuman being or spirit worshiped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity."
    Whats tho point in praying to him if he is not powerful enough to do anything, why worship a God if they are just a powerless observer, what qualifies him as God if he has no more power than us? how do we know what actions he can control and what actions he has to shrug his shoulders at?
  • Posts: 7,507
    For many religious people praying is an act of seeking spiritual guidance, consolation, Comfort etc... God is there to help them tackle life's difficulties, how to resist temptations for instance. It's so much more complex than simply asking for favors. We seem to return to this a lot, don't we? The fact that religion and religious practice is very complex and composed, while the antitheists feel a need to drastically simplify it and that in a way so they can criticize it...
  • Posts: 4,617
    Asking questions is fair enough and all it means is that the questions are different/ How does God offer guidance? If he is not all powerfull, who says that his guidance is better than anyone elses? How does praying provide comfort? I completely understand that for many, praying does provide comfort (like an emotional comfort blanket) or a placebo, but that doesn't make it real outside of our own weaknesses, wish thinking and insecurities
  • Posts: 7,653
    patb wrote: »
    Asking questions is fair enough and all it means is that the questions are different/ How does God offer guidance? If he is not all powerfull, who says that his guidance is better than anyone elses? How does praying provide comfort? I completely understand that for many, praying does provide comfort (like an emotional comfort blanket) or a placebo, but that doesn't make it real outside of our own weaknesses, wish thinking and insecurities

    Sit down and talk with some real religious people, some of my best talks were with some of the clergy that had worked in parts of the world were they did Gods work, and gave a lot of help to people really in need of them. They worked in the real world and had interesting viewpoints which made me rate religion for the individual much higher and organised religion less.
    Faith and believe are a freedom I might occasionally disagree with but I would defend their right to do so to the death if needed. Even if I think that criminal of morally wrong behaviour should never be covered up in any way even if it muddies your water.
  • Posts: 4,617
    I am just so far from religion that whenever I read comments like this, it just raises more questions that are never answered: what is a real religious person ? (as opposed to an unreal one?), why do humans have to do Gods work? why cant God do it himself? and which God? we know from the inspiration of this thread that terrorists are doing Gods work. What is working in the "real" World? I dont think anyone here has attacked individuals right to hold a belief, but there are just endless examples of that beleif impinging on the rights of others.
  • Posts: 7,653
    patb wrote: »
    I am just so far from religion that whenever I read comments like this, it just raises more questions that are never answered: what is a real religious person ? (as opposed to an unreal one?), why do humans have to do Gods work? why cant God do it himself? and which God? we know from the inspiration of this thread that terrorists are doing Gods work. What is working in the "real" World? I dont think anyone here has attacked individuals right to hold a belief, but there are just endless examples of that beleif impinging on the rights of others.

    like I said talk to religious people that actually have done the stuff they preached, hold the hand of a dying person who finds peace in his believes and faith. I do not have the answers for you neither do I begrudge you criticism as they are even correct, and it is not too difficult to critise the religions in their outward appearances.
    Am I religious, heck no, but I am very fascinated by the role it has played in our human history where a lot has happened due to religious reasons. Even when you consider that people rebelled against the learnings of faith they gave a worthfull addition to humanity's history. I am less interested in who or what God is and what he can do for you.
  • Posts: 15,125
    SaintMark wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    I am just so far from religion that whenever I read comments like this, it just raises more questions that are never answered: what is a real religious person ? (as opposed to an unreal one?), why do humans have to do Gods work? why cant God do it himself? and which God? we know from the inspiration of this thread that terrorists are doing Gods work. What is working in the "real" World? I dont think anyone here has attacked individuals right to hold a belief, but there are just endless examples of that beleif impinging on the rights of others.

    like I said talk to religious people that actually have done the stuff they preached, hold the hand of a dying person who finds peace in his believes and faith. I do not have the answers for you neither do I begrudge you criticism as they are even correct, and it is not too difficult to critise the religions in their outward appearances.
    Am I religious, heck no, but I am very fascinated by the role it has played in our human history where a lot has happened due to religious reasons. Even when you consider that people rebelled against the learnings of faith they gave a worthfull addition to humanity's history. I am less interested in who or what God is and what he can do for you.

    Before you can establish what God can do, you'd need to establish if there is a God or not. For all comfort and hand holding, human actions have a direct influence over this world, not prayers. You don't treat cancer with prayers, you don't feed people with prayers. Someone can claim he is inspired by God but that gives us zero clue for God's existence or indeed his nature.

    Not to mention that a religious person is genuinely religious whether he is good or not. The missionary who feeds starving Africans is no more religious than the member of the Westborough Baptist Church. Or the Islamist who kills infidels.
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