CharlieHebdo

bondjames

I agree that there is something reassuring about the church, no doubt. During moments of crisis (personal and communal) religious leaders and teachings can help to heal and calm.

However, the problem for many becomes where to draw the line. Ultimately, if you are religious, then reconciling the teachings about the beginning of the world etc. with what science proves via cold hard facts can be increasingly difficult. As time progresses and science continues to give us answers, many of the narratives and stories that organized religion provides fall apart.

From my perspective, only a deep personal faith can be tenable in the face of ever increasing knowledge by the human species. Religious dogma (no matter from what religion) is not tenable in the long run.

The collective knowledge of humankind is true enlightenment as far as I'm concerned. We just have to know where to find that knowledge, when to use it and how to use it. Whatever problem/challenge we face, someone, somewhere, has faced it before.

Easier said than done.

Thunderpussy

.. and Ridicule, is a great weapon. To show up the hypocrisy
Of various groups.

timmer

I will apologize to @wizardofice for being insulting, which I was.
He is a valuable member of this community. I don't want to change his provocative nature, which is often quite entertaining.

Carry on, however IMHO, one of the things we really need to take from this horrific incident is that we are truly at war with this IS entity, if there was any doubt.
We need to fight back. Law enforcement needs to be vigilant about infiltrating and rounding up as many of these killers as possible.
We've had two attacks in Canada in the last few months.
They are mobilizing their operatives all over the world to attack.
I just hope we are up the task of defending our societies.

Getafix

bondjames wrote: »

I agree that there is something reassuring about the church, no doubt. During moments of crisis (personal and communal) religious leaders and teachings can help to heal and calm.

However, the problem for many becomes where to draw the line. Ultimately, if you are religious, then reconciling the teachings about the beginning of the world etc. with what science proves via cold hard facts can be increasingly difficult. As time progresses and science continues to give us answers, many of the narratives and stories that organized religion provides fall apart.

From my perspective, only a deep personal faith can be tenable in the face of ever increasing knowledge by the human species. Religious dogma (no matter from what religion) is not tenable in the long run.

The collective knowledge of humankind is true enlightenment as far as I'm concerned. We just have to know where to find that knowledge, when to use it and how to use it. Whatever problem/challenge we face, someone, somewhere, has faced it before.

Easier said than done.

All very true. The only thing I'd bear in mind is that more people have been killed in the name of secular ideologies - communism, fascism - than religion. In the absence of religion where does the collective moral compass come from? Without religion, many cultures have tended towards murderous barbarism - Hitler, Stalin, Mao.

Even after yesterday's events can we honestly say that 'Islam' is more murderous than European civilisation? Only 70 years ago Europe fought the last of centuries of endless, bloody internal conflicts. That particular war was a clash of secular ideologies and imperial ambitions, not religions.

What have the Muslim nations of the world done in the last couple of centuries that even comes close to the slaughter we've wreaked on each other. Even today, it's absurd to make out that 'Muslims' are attacking the West in large numbers. Not a single Muslim state is at war with the West. Our attackers are a relatively small group of nutter extremists, who have largely been sidelined in mainstream Islamic cultures. The world's most populous majority Muslim country, Indonesia, is a relatively stable and prosperous democracy.

Any way, I'm bleating on in an increasingly incoherent fashion. All I'm saying is that a lot of nonsense is said about 'religion' being the cause of so many problems, and the possitive aspects of religion are too often ignored in everyday western debate. I say that as someone who personally doesn't believe in god.

bondjames

Getafix wrote: »

bondjames wrote: »

I agree that there is something reassuring about the church, no doubt. During moments of crisis (personal and communal) religious leaders and teachings can help to heal and calm.

However, the problem for many becomes where to draw the line. Ultimately, if you are religious, then reconciling the teachings about the beginning of the world etc. with what science proves via cold hard facts can be increasingly difficult. As time progresses and science continues to give us answers, many of the narratives and stories that organized religion provides fall apart.

From my perspective, only a deep personal faith can be tenable in the face of ever increasing knowledge by the human species. Religious dogma (no matter from what religion) is not tenable in the long run.

The collective knowledge of humankind is true enlightenment as far as I'm concerned. We just have to know where to find that knowledge, when to use it and how to use it. Whatever problem/challenge we face, someone, somewhere, has faced it before.

Easier said than done.

All very true. The only thing I'd bear in mind is that more people have been killed in the name of secular ideologies - communism, fascism - than religion. In the absence of religion where does the collective moral compass come from? Without religion, many cultures have tended towards murderous barbarism - Hitler, Stalin, Mao.

Even after yesterday's events can we honestly say that 'Islam' is more murderous than European civilisation? Only 70 years ago Europe fought the last of centuries of endless, bloody internal conflicts. That particular war was a clash of secular ideologies and imperial ambitions, not religions.

What have the Muslim nations of the world done in the last couple of centuries that even comes close to the slaughter we've wreaked on each other. Even today, it's absurd to make out that 'Muslims' are attacking the West in large numbers. Not a single Muslim state is at war with the West. Our attackers are a relatively small group of nutter extremists, who have largely been sidelined in mainstream Islamic cultures. The world's most populous majority Muslim country, Indonesia, is a relatively stable and prosperous democracy.

Any way, I'm bleating on in an increasingly incoherent fashion. All I'm saying is that a lot of nonsense is said about 'religion' being the cause of so many problems, and the possitive aspects of religion are too often ignored in everyday western debate. I say that as someone who personally doesn't believe in god.

I don't think you're being incoherent at all and to a large degree I do agree with you.

The problem is not religion, it is man. As was said, again, in one of my favourite movies, Angels and Demons, "Religion is flawed, but only because man is flawed". It is what is done in the name of religion that is a problem, not religion itself.

I do think though that reconciling religious dogma with the world as we know it is going to be increasingly difficult as science continues to give us answers to our deepest questions about the universe.

Where will we get our moral compass then as you rightly ask? I'm not sure. Perhaps in some form of individual faith. I don't need religion personally to have a moral compass. I get it from my conscience and knowledge of right and wrong. Others may need religion and I'm fine with that too.

The problem with Islam at the moment is, at least in the Middle East, the populations there are made up of young repressed populations who have limited chance for upward mobility. The countries for the most part are run by despots & the countries do not have a lot of experience with democracy or freedom of rights. That is a breeding ground for fundamentalist religion to take hold. Lack of opportunity is a major concern over there. We're not helping things by supporting despots to benefit ourselves primarily.

Ludovico

Secular ideologies? Fascism was secular? Only Mussolini was an atheist. Franco was a practicing catholic, Hitler was a catholic, the emperor of japan a god on earth! As for Stalin, he never killed for atheism and his reign came after centuries of violence caused in part by a ruthless orthodox Church. Which today is in bed with Putin, a believer who is turning homosexuals into second class citizens... With the blessing of said Church. Some secularism!

Getafix

bondjames wrote: »

Getafix wrote: »

bondjames wrote: »

I agree that there is something reassuring about the church, no doubt. During moments of crisis (personal and communal) religious leaders and teachings can help to heal and calm.

However, the problem for many becomes where to draw the line. Ultimately, if you are religious, then reconciling the teachings about the beginning of the world etc. with what science proves via cold hard facts can be increasingly difficult. As time progresses and science continues to give us answers, many of the narratives and stories that organized religion provides fall apart.

From my perspective, only a deep personal faith can be tenable in the face of ever increasing knowledge by the human species. Religious dogma (no matter from what religion) is not tenable in the long run.

The collective knowledge of humankind is true enlightenment as far as I'm concerned. We just have to know where to find that knowledge, when to use it and how to use it. Whatever problem/challenge we face, someone, somewhere, has faced it before.

Easier said than done.

All very true. The only thing I'd bear in mind is that more people have been killed in the name of secular ideologies - communism, fascism - than religion. In the absence of religion where does the collective moral compass come from? Without religion, many cultures have tended towards murderous barbarism - Hitler, Stalin, Mao.

Even after yesterday's events can we honestly say that 'Islam' is more murderous than European civilisation? Only 70 years ago Europe fought the last of centuries of endless, bloody internal conflicts. That particular war was a clash of secular ideologies and imperial ambitions, not religions.

What have the Muslim nations of the world done in the last couple of centuries that even comes close to the slaughter we've wreaked on each other. Even today, it's absurd to make out that 'Muslims' are attacking the West in large numbers. Not a single Muslim state is at war with the West. Our attackers are a relatively small group of nutter extremists, who have largely been sidelined in mainstream Islamic cultures. The world's most populous majority Muslim country, Indonesia, is a relatively stable and prosperous democracy.

Any way, I'm bleating on in an increasingly incoherent fashion. All I'm saying is that a lot of nonsense is said about 'religion' being the cause of so many problems, and the possitive aspects of religion are too often ignored in everyday western debate. I say that as someone who personally doesn't believe in god.

I don't think you're being incoherent at all and to a large degree I do agree with you.

The problem is not religion, it is man. As was said, again, in one of my favourite movies, Angels and Demons, "Religion is flawed, but only because man is flawed". It is what is done in the name of religion that is a problem, not religion itself.

I do think though that reconciling religious dogma with the world as we know it is going to be increasingly difficult as science continues to give us answers to our deepest questions about the universe.

Where will we get our moral compass then as you rightly ask? I'm not sure. Perhaps in some form of individual faith. I don't need religion personally to have a moral compass. I get it from my conscience and knowledge of right and wrong. Others may need religion and I'm fine with that too.

The problem with Islam at the moment is, at least in the Middle East, the populations there are made up of young repressed populations who have limited chance for upward mobility. The countries for the most part are run by despots & the countries do not have a lot of experience with democracy or freedom of rights. That is a breeding ground for fundamentalist religion to take hold. Lack of opportunity is a major concern over there. We're not helping things by supporting despots to benefit ourselves primarily.

But where does your morality originate from? I'd hazard a guess that when you drill down into it, your morality bears a close resemblence to Judeo-Christian morality. Of course, you could argue that most religious morality is borne out of some inate human sense of natural law. Perhaps in the West we are 'post religion' in the sense that Christian/natural law morality is so deeply engrained in the culutre, that we don't need a formal church to help shore it up. I wonder though how quickly all that could fall away in the event of some major economic or environmental shocks. I think we underestimate how quickly 'morality' can be lost, change and be distorted. Look at the collective actions of the German people during WW2 - an otherwise 'moral' people who willingly colluded in mass murder.

Agree with what you said about the lack of opporunity in many Middle Eastern countries helping breed the resentment that the jihadis feeds off. There's certainly a lot of legitemate anger out there, often stewing away from decades. Look at the poor Palestinians - shat on by everyone essentially and with little prospect of things ever improving. Doubtless they could have handled their position much better, and they we led by a complete donkey for decades, but you have feel for them. They did nothing wrong, had their country essentially stolen from them, and those that remained have ended up prisoners on their own dwindling lands. It's no wonder the region is a total pressure cooker.

bondjames

Getafix wrote: »

bondjames wrote: »

Getafix wrote: »

bondjames wrote: »

I agree that there is something reassuring about the church, no doubt. During moments of crisis (personal and communal) religious leaders and teachings can help to heal and calm.

However, the problem for many becomes where to draw the line. Ultimately, if you are religious, then reconciling the teachings about the beginning of the world etc. with what science proves via cold hard facts can be increasingly difficult. As time progresses and science continues to give us answers, many of the narratives and stories that organized religion provides fall apart.

From my perspective, only a deep personal faith can be tenable in the face of ever increasing knowledge by the human species. Religious dogma (no matter from what religion) is not tenable in the long run.

The collective knowledge of humankind is true enlightenment as far as I'm concerned. We just have to know where to find that knowledge, when to use it and how to use it. Whatever problem/challenge we face, someone, somewhere, has faced it before.

Easier said than done.

All very true. The only thing I'd bear in mind is that more people have been killed in the name of secular ideologies - communism, fascism - than religion. In the absence of religion where does the collective moral compass come from? Without religion, many cultures have tended towards murderous barbarism - Hitler, Stalin, Mao.

Even after yesterday's events can we honestly say that 'Islam' is more murderous than European civilisation? Only 70 years ago Europe fought the last of centuries of endless, bloody internal conflicts. That particular war was a clash of secular ideologies and imperial ambitions, not religions.

What have the Muslim nations of the world done in the last couple of centuries that even comes close to the slaughter we've wreaked on each other. Even today, it's absurd to make out that 'Muslims' are attacking the West in large numbers. Not a single Muslim state is at war with the West. Our attackers are a relatively small group of nutter extremists, who have largely been sidelined in mainstream Islamic cultures. The world's most populous majority Muslim country, Indonesia, is a relatively stable and prosperous democracy.

Any way, I'm bleating on in an increasingly incoherent fashion. All I'm saying is that a lot of nonsense is said about 'religion' being the cause of so many problems, and the possitive aspects of religion are too often ignored in everyday western debate. I say that as someone who personally doesn't believe in god.

I don't think you're being incoherent at all and to a large degree I do agree with you.

The problem is not religion, it is man. As was said, again, in one of my favourite movies, Angels and Demons, "Religion is flawed, but only because man is flawed". It is what is done in the name of religion that is a problem, not religion itself.

I do think though that reconciling religious dogma with the world as we know it is going to be increasingly difficult as science continues to give us answers to our deepest questions about the universe.

Where will we get our moral compass then as you rightly ask? I'm not sure. Perhaps in some form of individual faith. I don't need religion personally to have a moral compass. I get it from my conscience and knowledge of right and wrong. Others may need religion and I'm fine with that too.

The problem with Islam at the moment is, at least in the Middle East, the populations there are made up of young repressed populations who have limited chance for upward mobility. The countries for the most part are run by despots & the countries do not have a lot of experience with democracy or freedom of rights. That is a breeding ground for fundamentalist religion to take hold. Lack of opportunity is a major concern over there. We're not helping things by supporting despots to benefit ourselves primarily.

But where does your morality originate from? I'd hazard a guess that when you drill down into it, your morality bears a close resemblence to Judeo-Christian morality. Of course, you could argue that most religious morality is borne out of some inate human sense of natural law. Perhaps in the West we are 'post religion' in the sense that Christian/natural law morality is so deeply engrained in the culutre, that we don't need a formal church to help shore it up. I wonder though how quickly all that could fall away in the event of some major economic or environmental shocks. I think we underestimate how quickly 'morality' can be lost, change and be distorted. Look at the collective actions of the German people during WW2 - an otherwise 'moral' people who willingly colluded in mass murder.Agree with what you said about the lack of opporunity in many Middle Eastern countries helping breed the resentment that the jihadis feeds off. There's certainly a lot of legitemate anger out there, often stewing away from decades. Look at the poor Palestinians - shat on by everyone essentially and with little prospect of things ever improving. Doubtless they could have handled their position much better, and they we led by a complete donkey for decades, but you have feel for them. They did nothing wrong, had their country essentially stolen from them, and those that remained have ended up prisoners on their own dwindling lands. It's no wonder the region is a total pressure cooker.

I used to ask a lot of questions as a youngster and I've always been curious. So I formed a world view very early and a sense of right and wrong. I was always concerned, even when young, by blind faith and people's lack of questioning. I think ultimately we've all got it in us in the form of our conscience, but of course that can vary from person to person based on their knowledge, life experience and intellect.

It's very true about society and morals being fragile, but I contend that organized religion won't necessarily be of much help in case of a major catastrophe - it is personal faith that is critical then.

Absolutely agree on the poor Palestinians. When they were getting bombed to hell last year I couldn't understand how they took it for that month. Then there's the Haitians a few years back, or the Japanese during the nuclear disaster and the South East Asians during the Tsunami. All from different religious backgrounds, and ultimately it was their faith (either personal or organized) that held them together during moments of personal living hell.

Getafix

Frankly it's a wonder there aren't more wars and conflict.

Ludovico

RE: Where you get your morality from. Religions care very little about morality. They are about beliefs and devotions, i.e. worship. They often confuse and misuse the term moral to basically equivocate it with worship. Western societies have developed a sense of morality from what we can call secular values. The terrorists who murdered the people at Charlie Hebdo were motivated by religious devotion, they thought, they still think, that it was the "moral" thing to do, ordered by their god. The people they murdered were openly and unrepenting atheist, anticlerical, anti-establishment republican artists. They were also far more moral, in every aspect of their professional life, as their assassins will ever be, even if they were to repent. Which they won't.

chipsticks

Didn't care for CH but I send prayers to the families of the victims

thelivingroyale

RIP to all the victims of this attack. Awful news.

Reminds me of what happened with South Park a few years back. They wanted to show Muhammad in an episode and Paramount/ComedyCentral pussied out so in response the writers added this speech (which was also censored when originally broadcast, the whole thing was bleeped out, further proving the writers point).



My point is that Paramount/ComedyCentral/Whoever gave in, proving themselves to be cowards. The cartoonists who were attacked here did not, they showed bravery and defended freedom of speech and for that they deserve praise.

Apparently a lot of papers are printing old Charliehebdo cartoons showing Muhammed. Good on them.

Thunderpussy

Good on them indeed.

Ludovico

And it will backfire on the Islamists, big time. It already has.

Thunderpussy

The support around the world is fantastic to see, the terrorists
Will never win.

Suivez_ce_parachute

One survivor has said he thought for a split second it was a prank when the terrorist entered the room, because they do lots of jokes when they gather to meet at the magazine.

RC7

Ludovico wrote: »

RE: Where you get your morality from. Religions care very little about morality. They are about beliefs and devotions, i.e. worship. They often confuse and misuse the term moral to basically equivocate it with worship. Western societies have developed a sense of morality from what we can call secular values. The terrorists who murdered the people at Charlie Hebdo were motivated by religious devotion, they thought, they still think, that it was the "moral" thing to do, ordered by their god. The people they murdered were openly and unrepenting atheist, anticlerical, anti-establishment republican artists. They were also far more moral, in every aspect of their professional life, as their assassins will ever be, even if they were to repent. Which they won't.

Very well said @Ludovico

Thunderpussy

I too don't have much time for Religion.

TheWizardOfIce

Getafix wrote: »

In the absence of religion where does the collective moral compass come from?

Why is this fallacy allowed to continue? After 2000 years of indoctrination religion has hard wired it into us that it is this moral roadmap we should be following and that somehow religious people are more moral than the rest of us. I'm quite capable of discerning for myself that rape and murder are wrong thank you and if someone only doesnt rape and murder because they are scared some mythical guy on a cloud might tut and send them to burn in hell when they die then they are a pretty sick individual.

Getafix wrote: »

and the possitive aspects of religion are too often ignored in everyday western debate

I'd be grateful if you could furnish me with a list of these positive aspects......

timmer wrote: »

I will apologize to @wizardofice for being insulting, which I was.
He is a valuable member of this community. I don't want to change his provocative nature, which is often quite entertaining.

I appreciate your apology Timmer. I think 16 years of being brainwashed by the Catholic church qualifies me as not that ignorant (an altar boy as well and not even abused by a priest so I can get a payout!).
As for the government's position, its things like this I find fairly disgusting:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/7073322/David-Cameron-calls-for-more-faith-schools.html

Shouldnt the leader of the nation be advocating schools where children are taught to think for themselves? This is why I admire the French way of life a lot more, religion is a private thing. If you must be religious do it in the privacy of your own home and dont expect the rest of us to give you special privileges because of it.

Yes some people might consider me to be a vitriolic on the subject of religion but I make no apology for that. I appreciate using the freedoms that comes from living in a civilised (and thankfully largely religion free) country. If this thread should be for anything it should be for that.

PLO, IRA, ETA, HAMAS, ISIS - these groups have always been around in my lifetime. The letters may change but their complete failure doesnt. Just get on with your life and keep laughing is my advice because whatever your Immams and Rabbis might tell you, this is your one shot folks so enjoy it because you'll spend an awful lot of time lying in the ground regretting the things you never did because you were in church otherwise.

patb

Within "western" liberal democracies, all of the polls and figures indicate that religion is steadily declining as people realise that they don't need religion in their lives. For many, a wedding or funeral is the only time they go to church. Remember when pubs and shops were closed on Sundays as they were sacred? Peoples faith in science to eventually explain things is becoming greater than our faith in the invisible guy in the sky. In time, all religions will die as we grow up as a species and students will look back at us in the same way that we look back at witch burners. Its a tragedy that these "growing pains" result in cultural clashes between those who want to look forward and those who want to drag us back into a darker age. Its not coincidence that a school was a target in Pakistan a few weeks ago. Knowledge, thought, enquiry, discussion and analysis will never sit well with any religion.

Getafix

May be in Western European countries. Not sure it's so straightforward in the US, South America, Africa, Russia, Middle East or Asia.

bondjames

patb wrote: »

Within "western" liberal democracies, all of the polls and figures indicate that religion is steadily declining as people realise that they don't need religion in their lives. For many, a wedding or funeral is the only time they go to church. Remember when pubs and shops were closed on Sundays as they were sacred? Peoples faith in science to eventually explain things is becoming greater than our faith in the invisible guy in the sky. In time, all religions will die as we grow up as a species and students will look back at us in the same way that we look back at witch burners. Its a tragedy that these "growing pains" result in cultural clashes between those who want to look forward and those who want to drag us back into a darker age. Its not coincidence that a school was a target in Pakistan a few weeks ago. Knowledge, thought, enquiry, discussion and analysis will never sit well with any religion.

Well said. Once the convenient narratives are exposed for what they are, credibility will be, for many, lost. The religious establishments are going to have to reinvent themselves for a truly enlightened population if they are to survive.

Having said that, let's not forget the military industrial complex (and its suppliers) in the background, pulling the strings & sowing the seeds of hate and division in certain developing countries where the populations are suppressed and still in the grip of religious dogmas as a solace due to lack of opportunity and advancement. War is good business. Suppression is good for that business - i.e. the business of War.

Getafix

All too depressing. Might put on a Roger Moore Bond movie to cheer myself up.

patb

In Star Trek's vision of the future (as created by GR), there is no religion on Earth. There is simply no need for it. Society wasn't perfect and there were still wars, but we were further down the road in working things out.

chrisisall

Getafix wrote: »

All too depressing. Might put on a Roger Moore Bond movie to cheer myself up.

Whist I don't indulge in the fairy-tale mythos, I do consider myself to be a spiritual dude. My ideas would be more in line with Sagan & De Grasse-Tyson than the Pope though.

And if Neil told me to kill in the name of a Cosmos dis, I would certainly have to DO IT!!

:P

timmer

patb wrote: »

In Star Trek's vision of the future (as created by GR), there is no religion on Earth. There is simply no need for it. Society wasn't perfect and there were still wars, but we were further down the road in working things out.

Great, we're getting lectured on religion by a guy whose frame of reference is Star Trek.
Change your pajamas and come out of the basement. Get some air!

@bondjames "well said." Are you kidding me?! The guy's post is chock full of wild assumptions and wild predictions. You're smarter than that. Do I really need to deconstruct.
I think we need to raise the IQ level a few notches here.
At least @wizardofice is funny. @patb sounds like he's 12 years old.

Let's revisit the salient facts. A terrorist group purporting to represent Allah, murdered a bunch of people in his name. They are known in the terrorist parlance as Islamists. They are also denounced by peace-loving Muslims who are not bent on destroying our societies.
We are at war with them. We know this because they are attacking us with guns.

Gene Roddenberry's sci-fi Utopian fantasy is not relevant or germane to the matter at hand.
The Islamists are not aligned with any other religion or belief system, Christian,Jewish, atheist, angostic or treker for that matter. In fact they would happily kill and do kill, any and all of the above.

What we as western democracies need do is address the actual tangible, real threat that actually exists ie the guys with guns that are mowing down the citizenry with military precision in editoral offices, destroying schools in Pakistan, gunning down Canadian Soliders guarding war memorials in Ottawa, not to mention what went down in Australia.

We are at war. The enemy is very real and very murderous, and they aren't Klingons.

patb

"Sagan & De Grasse-Tyson" at the end of a depressing day in terms of news, its lovely to see that there are other people out these who share the same heroes. If anyone wants to draw a cartoon of Sagan, I don't think his fans would reach for their AK47s

5 mins 34 secs of logic and reason - this guy was way ahead of his time, goodnight all

chrisisall

timmer wrote: »

Let's revisit the salient facts.

the guys with guns that are mowing down the citizenry with military precision.

Ummm, let's weigh those salient facts-

'Mowing down'? Please. More people are killed in car accidents each year than are killed by terrorist attacks. NO, that doesn't mean we ignore it (I saw that strawman coming), it means we consider a reasonable course of action to punish the evil doers and possibly prevent future nut-bursts. Neo-Con dogma dictates alarmism. And a war is exactly what these hobby-less misanthropes want. You want to hand it to them? Their ultimate goal is for us to overextend ourselves & crumble from within. Guess what? It's been working so far. Unfortunately, making enemies is both more interesting & profitable (for a select few) than making friends.

Kerim

Thunderfinger wrote: »

Blablabla it is all our own fault. I am so sick of hearing this. How do you think Islam spread throughout Africa and Asia? Through terror and mass slaughter. It has been estimated that 270 million people have been killed by Jihad over the last 1200 years. Not including muslims killed by muslims that are holier than themselves. That number is probably even bigger judging by how the Middle East looks today.

You could argue that all religions had a hand in the deaths of many throughout civilization. How many died in the name of Christianity during medieval times? Honestly, I think more people died due to Christianity than in the Muslim name. The Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition and Hitler's xenophobia as a Catholic are examples of massive death counts in the name of Christianity because others didn't believe the way they should have in the eyes of those in power or with instruments of death.

But again, I think most major religions has the blood of many on their hands. If you took all the people in the history of mankind and counted to see how many died in the name of religion, I would not at all be surprised if that number was at least 9 digits long.

This is the main reason why I'm agnostic.

chrisisall

Kerim wrote: »

If you took all the people in the history of mankind and counted to see how many died in the name of religion, I would not at all be surprised if that number was at least 9 digits long.

Possibly.
Religion has always been an attempt to separate us from our animal nature IMO. Intellect should suffice at this point in our evolution.
But, well... greed. So, no.
"We are all animals, milady." - Darkness