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Comments
Exactly right @chrisisall. One has to have a proportionate response, not play into either the shooter's or the miltary industrial complex's desire for wars or an overreactionary response. I agree. Otherwise, we ultimately lose freedoms (and economic properity) which is what they want, and they will have won.
Ultimately IMO, people over there need economic opportunity. They need to have hope that their families' lives will improve economically. If they are given that hope, and it is sustained, then these cancerous groups that have hijacked Islam will self-destruct from within, because no one will need them & their crazy ideology any more. They will then start to lose recruitment, not gain it, as they are doing now. It's telling that we don't see this problem in relatively prosperous and democratic Asian muslim countries like Indonesia (with the largest muslim population) or Malaysia. This Islamist problem is germane to the Middle East & to a lesser degree, Pakistan & Afghanistan. One has to understand why.
I believe it's due to a lack of opportunity in these particular countries and leadership by despotic regimes who have been funded and propped up for self-serving geopolitical reasons. That is the root cause for why groups like ISIL can exist and why radical Islam can take hold. This has to change, but it has to change from within. It's going to be a wrenching process and it's just begun in the form of the Arab spring which some say is stillborn, but which I think is just taking a breather. Like what happened to Eastern Europe post-Soviet Union, this is not going to happen overnight. It will get a lot worse (for all of us) before it gets better.......but at least the likely multi-decade adjustment process has begun. This is phase 2. The ugly phase.
Sadly, IMO, our western economies, increasingly funded by and benefiting the select few, may actually be perpetuating the problem rather than letting it solve itself over there. There's no doubt that many would prefer the status quo because they are enriching themselves from it, via all kinds of self serving contracts & relationships.
@timmer, has there been any direct evidential link between the Canadian shooter (Bibeau) and ISIL? Some circumstantial links exist, but nothing concrete as far as I know.
@Getafix, I too think that the US/Canada may be different from Europe regarding the influence of religion. @patb is correct that the influence of religion is declining in Europe. However, I'm not sure if there is evidence to suggest that is the case in US/Canada. Keep in mind though that many of the new immigrants to US/Canada are quite religious, so that may skew things.
@Kerim you are correct in that many have died in the name of religion. Sadly, religions are hijacked throughout history and used as an instrument to fulfil some zenophobic or megalomaniacal ambition, as is the case now in the Middle East. It's an easy target.
That's why I'm a believer in logic and common sense above all else . I too, am agnostic.
Yikes! @timmer might be offended here!
:-??
Maybe the Star Trek brigade could zap the Islamists with their phasers...and not on stun setting. :))
I'm just glancing through my History of the World, going back to Neanderthal times.
I see man has always been at war. Just never seems to end.
Hmmmm, seems man might have a depraved nature, ipso facto.
So much for the utopia.
Just have to man the barricades. Barbarians at the gate and all.
Yes but these things and religion are not mutually exclusive.
Especially when it comes to basic humanitarian values, you should not need a 'sect' (all religions are a sect, whether they are branded one or not) to keep your moral compass in line - treating people well, not stealing & helping those less fortunate are 1st and foremost human values, not religious ones.
If you want to be a part of society & the human race in general, there are basic principles that you have to adhere to. You shouldn't need a list of commandments or what not to guide you.
Well said! Falling into the trap of saying we're 'at war' with them and overreacting to every terror attack is exactly what they want.
I am not through with all the posts, but by and large, everything Getafix says pretty much agrees with my stand on things. Revenge and doing what we have done for centuries is not going to change anything. When will we learn?
But in our society there is a place for such freedom, and for that I am grateful.
You're right of course in a pure sense. But at the same time a civilised society is also one in which most people don't go out of their way to cause offence - freedom comes with responsibilites and society is governed by certain unwritten codes of conduct. But on a purely philosophical level I complete support what you're saying.
Also, I saw many errors about the facts themselves, etc. (In particular no terrorist turned himself to the police, it was "just" a suspect who has been cleared since then it seems).
But you're all so far away : I live 600m from Charlie Hebdo, I ride my bike probably several times each month where the policeman was killed, I see policemen with rifles in the street since a few days and well right now I hear sirens everywhere since one of the two current hostage crisis is happening at the East of Paris, 3 km from here (already 2 deaths according to first reports - officials say it's wrong).
But does it feel that Parisians are living under fear ? Not at all. In everyday life, police is not liked much here, like everywhere else I guess, but on the other hand Elite police is trusted a lot.
One has to consider context. Religion does matter to a lot of people (I'm not saying that's right or wrong). A lot of people's identity is wrapped up in their religious beliefs (again I'm not saying that's right or wrong).
The peaceful muslim community (not the shooters) are likely to be particularly sensitive and up in arms (more so than others) over the past 14 years, as their religion has been dragged through the mud post-2001 by those who do not understand it, and also by those who kill in its name. Just as some people in New York made a big fuss a few years ago when someone wanted to build a mosque near the World Trade Centre site. There was as big up in arms over it, and I personally could not understand why. None of the people who were intending to use that Islamic Centre were on the attack planes......people can be quite illogical at times and particularly sensitive where religion is concerned.
Therefore, I think people should be a little careful when attempting to satirize that particular issue. While it's not illegal, it's just common sense, because the party being satirized is particularly sensitive and more likely to over react. All the countries the west is at physical war with right now just happen to be muslim (the west is in a financial war with Russia, not a physical one....yet). Furthermore, a large portion of the muslim population in France is not economically prosperous and not properly integrated into society. I believe it's about 5-7% of the population that is muslim in Frrance. As I've said before, it is those who are less economically secure who cling to religious beliefs more strongly. That itself increases the probablity of a sensitive and illogical overreaction by the community to these cartoons in France. Finally, the anti-immigration far right Front National Party run by Marie LePen has been doing quite well in elections in France. So nationalism is growing in France, as it is in many European countries.
All of the above behooved Charlie Hedo to have been more careful. They were fanning the flames at a particularly sensitive time for this religious community.
I believe Marie LePen is going to have a field day over these attacks, but I think she should tread lightly not fan the fames of further mistrust.
Since economic prosperity is the best solution to make people secular, I suggest this is where the government in France focus their efforts to defeat the problem. Easier said than done with the current European economic malaise however.
I notice also you keep on saying the solution should be economical (and yet no target represent "the rich French", far from it !), but on the other hand you write that muslims are particularly sensitive.. This is IMO saying that "I'm not racist, but frankly, they're not like us, so be careful", and adding that "really, really, I'm not racist, I mean they're not like us because they're victims, and we're the real culprits".
Well, your religion may tell you you live with your sins, but here we don't care much about Christianity either. IIRC only 1/3rd of French believe in some God. IMO Here it's the one who pulls the trigger who is the culprit. Don't forget the mere fact of having a weapon here means a lot. You can't buy them easily.
PS : I warn you that if you say I'm wrong, then, according to my religion, I will go to Hell. So please answer responsibly and agree with everything I say.
I believe solving the muslim social problem (in terms of integrating them into society and improving their economic worth) in European countries is critical to preventing long term ills. Just like solving the African American economic problem in America is critical to its long term ills.
The societal issues that are occuring in Europe now are not endemic to being muslim, just as the societal issues occuring in the US (witness some of the recent riots) are not endemic to being black. These issues can be solved. It requires an economic solution. Easier said than done though as the problem has occured over years.
My point is if there was less economic disparity between certain groups, then there will be less place for bad people to hide. They will be less people who sympathize with them, and their ilk will be less likely to thrive and infest society.
I think that's obvious. The problem is how to solve the economic disparity.
We are going to see more problems between old and young soon too, mark my words, with all the differences in wealth and opportunity between the haves and have nots depending on age. Intergenerational conflict will also increase.
Amen.
If you fear to look racist, they have won. And yet you keep on pointing out muslims as one of the "certain groups" if one reads between the lines IMO.
Only half a dozen of terrorists have successfully attacked France in the last years. If you were right, there should have been tens of thousands of them.
There are "muslims" in the victims. But they were not religious ones... Ah, sorry, I talk about religion again !
PS : Anti-semitism has a lot to do with what's happening IMO. Far more than all the economical stuff, even if the media feeds everyone the notion that everything is linked to economy (I guess some people fear the irrationnal so much that they hope everything can be explained with statistics).
1,000 lashes for insulting Islam in Saudi, this is a bigger issue than a cartoon, its about one global religion who consider that their God is untouchable, just imagine that punishment in the UK for someone who criticised christianity
And I'll cherish the thoughts about that intelligent, beautifull and worldly & wise French student that introduced me to this magazine a long time ago.
I think that as a European and Dutchman I do find the French perhaps the best spokespersons for the freedom of speech mostly due to their society. I sympathise with the French today and tomorrow and yesterday as well perhaps better than with the Anglo Saxon world.
But I also think that this attack on the freedom of thought and press as aimed not just at France but at the whole of Western society. And our response as a whole will be a important choice for the near future. Even Le Pen recognises that attacking a whole religion for that extremism of a few is not going to do any favours for anybody. Religion through our European history has often been the source of bloodbaths, lets hope we have grown up a wee little.
As you can see, we have two bankers, one trader, .. Yeah, 'it's the economy, stupid'. Amen.
Me too. 100%. I appreciate and respect the French attitude to freedom of speech and freedom of expression in all areas, not just speech.
Well we did used to do that kind of thing in Europe as well. It is not so long ago that we were as equally deranged as some of the Islamo-nutcases. We need to recognise that the whole world does not think the same way as us, and other cultures change at a different pace. If you want to go and see some modern-day religio-political idiocy, that's a hang over from Europe's past, go and visit Northern Ireland, where Catholics and Protestants still continue to kill each other on a fairly regular basis.
Blasphemy was still a criminal offence in the UK up until the 1970s, I think.
We need to remember that these lunatics do not represent 'all Muslims'. Most Muslims have been either ingnoring the deliberate provocations of the Mohammad cartoons or perhaps aren't that bothered by them. Its just a few headcases, whose grievances are about much more than cartoons any way, who've latched onto the cartoons as a justification for their thurst for murder and mayhem.
Some people here think it has nothing to do with culture. Their own perception grid does not change at the same pace as others :)
No @Suivez_ce_parachute, that is not my point. I am referring to 'muslims' only in the context of our discussion on this thread, which has veered somewhat toward Islam bashing on occasion in some of the posts, which I don't agree with. That is why my comments may appear that way. I am not specifically referring to the French context.
Exactly. Well said.
The problem is that if your economical explanation seems coherent to you at a high level of thinking, but fails to explain anything that actually happens in the street, then it means you end like some psychanalyst : "always right", but stuck in old books and never able to cure anyone.
One of the two current hostage crisis in France (one by the two Charlie terrorists, one by one or two accomplices) is in a kosher shop, FYI.
1977 was the last case I believe, it was something to do with a story involving Jesus and a Roman centurion. The Christians still get cheesed off - Stewart Lee's 'Jerry Springer: The Opera' was picketed and run into the ground by religious nuts. The following even happened...
In January 2007 Christian Voice, represented by Stephen Green, attempted to prosecute BBC director-general Mark Thompson for blasphemy over the show.
True, I am commenting at a macro level. I have no specific knowledge of the French context, and I admit that. The context is of course different everywhere, but the economic disparity will feed the problem even if it is not the cause everywhere too. I truly believe that.