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That is why ISIL is recruiting these people from the West to come and fight for them. You and I are not going to go there because we have better things to do with our lives. Some people don't and it's not a religious thing as some of the people who are going there to fight were not born Muslim, they are converting and going there. That is because they have given up hope.
That is why some people (and proportionately more black in the US) turn to crime. Since they have given up hope or have no hope.
The income disparities must be fixed or reduced.
I think at some point you should confront your macro analysis with the actual facts. You're building a strongly coherent analysis of what's happening, that has nothing to do with what's happening. IMO You're like a psychanalyst looking for some Oedipus complex, whatever happened to your patient.
Crime and terrorism are two different matters, you really should not mix the two IMO. More crime are amongst the poors and against the poors ? Of course. That's no rocket science. But kill someone from a French TV kid show and end your life in prison if you're not killed ? Where's the economy ?
No, but the foot soldiers are often the dissillusioned, isolated youth, operating on the margins of mainstream society. Many of these nutters start off as not remotely religious at all. Many of them have drifted away from the 'normal', moderate religion of their parents, and entered into petty crime, drugs etc. They may have explicitly rejected religion. After all, everyday normal religious worship in most faiths is pretty unexciting - many young Muslims probably just find it boring. From the life of petty crime they go to prison, where they are targeted by extremists, who see them as easy prey. Prisons (both civil and military) are famously the factories of extremism. ISIS have talked openly about how their group gestated in the American military prisons of Iraq. Having had no direction in their lives previously, extremist Islam provides these youths with meaning and purpose (or so they imagine).
9/11 was a pretty explicit attack on the Western capitalist system.
But I agree though that the webs of funding, finance etc. for Islamic nutters are complex and for the headcases it's not about 'rich versus poor'. But then I don't think that's what @bondjames was saying any way.
I'm referring to the underlying issues that are at play. Many people in the west are drawing a link between ISIL and these attacks. Some are even drawing a general link between Islam and these attacks. They did so in Canada, certain western media are propogating this (because they are lazy) and some ignorant members of the public are drawing that link. In North American in particular, and mainly because of ignorance and lack of understanding.
I am discussing the wider context of muslim grievance because of such inferences and links. You have not drawn such links, and I have not suggested you have. But some have, and some continue to do so.
I am not suggesting that ISIL was at fault here. There is no evidence to support that.
Do you know the profile of the French terrorists of the last years, or do you think it *must* be something like this ?
9/11 was conducted by citizens from Saudi Arabia, that's not exactly a poor country, led by an Egyptian who studied in several universities. How you can link that to the "isolated youth on margins of the society" ?
Economy is IMO like psychoanalysis : it explains everything, but cures nothing, and cannot predict anything.
But you should not be blind to the cultural aspects just because some people want to use that to attack Iraq or whatever.
A famous journalist who was interviewed in front of Charlie Hebdo's buildings minutes after the attack talked about Islam fanatics, was interrupted by someone saying "we don't know yet", and answered back immedialy "Who do you think they were ? Angry philatelists ?"
I don't think we are in disagreement @Suivez_ce_parachute. I think there is a misunderstanding maybe because I am speaking generally at a macro level, but we are not in disagreement. I don't mean to be blind to cultural aspects at all. Quite the opposite. I can assure you though that in North America there are many in the public who are blaming muslims generally for this. That is ignorant and wrong IMO.
Since they consider economy proves everything, I found some stastistics as food for thought :
Here are the number of times Charlie Hebdo was sued :
12 times by the right wing
8 times by other journalists
8 times by catholics
6 times by muslims
2 times by harkis (Algerians who collaborated with the French army)
But you keep on seeing the drawings about Mahomet.
No one has the legal right not to be offended. That is simply absurd. By all means be offended but its not a legal right to not be.
We will never be free of offence. That goes with the free society territory.
But liberty must also be defended, with reasonable and just force of course (which is obviously not an exact science)
So Nazis, ISIS etc who would look to destroy our societies for purely ideological reasons,
must be counter-attacked and defeated.
Mind you they never go away, they keep coming back, but such is the good fight, it never ends, until you die, and face your perfect judgement (that's a Judeo-Christian theology of course).
"His fight goes on, and on, and on.
But he thinks that the fight is worth it all;
So he strikes like Thunderball"
I do think Nazi Germany should have been attacked "like-Thunderball" in the 1930's. The exact when is quite debatable of course, but what was going on there, was very apparent to those paying attention, western intelligence chiefs such as William Stephenson (the quiet Canadian, of a man A Man Called Intrepid fame) and colleague of one Ian Fleming.
Best defence is always a good offence.
By the time the Nazis invaded Poland though it was too late. We had failed to press our advantage.
There are any number of political, economic and ineffectual weasal appeasement policies, that Hitler was able to exploit, very well outlined in many books, including this recent effort (2012) taken from the letters of the US ambassador to Germany at the time.
soon to be a film, I believe.
At least the west is taking the fight to them this time (although unlike Hitler, they are a little more obvious in showing their hand) so we don't really have much choice.
The Neville Chamberlains of the world will not carry as much sway this time.
ISIS has been laying waste to much of the middle east, inflicting the worst barbarity imaginable (full on mass rapes and slaughter)
We are fighting back. I think the aerial assaults will complimnted by a concerted groud assault at some point.
Liberty does come with a price. It always has.
Now its fine and dandy to discuss matters theological or purely humanistic. Those can be fair, respectful and interesting discussions. Man has always searched for meaning and purpose.
But those discussions can only be openly held in a free society.
Thus we must be vigilant to defend our democratic freedoms, to offend and be offended, but those who do their talking with guns must be stood up to.
And I do think we are on the right track. I do believe our law enforcement, intelligence and military forces are up to the task.
Real life M and his intelligence team, I would imagine are actively engaged. The real-life double 0 equivalents have their assignments-targets.
The Paris police are at least rounding up the enemy combatants (not without further incident unfortunately) and I think continued efforts will be made to double down and identify the terrorist plotters in our midst before they can strike.
Yes but IMO only a very very minor part of those who are blaming the muslims would actually kill someone... even a muslim.
You remind me of this posture : imagine a serial child killer is brought to prison in a van, that is blocked by a crowd full of people shouting "death penalty ! death penalty !". Then, there are always a few intellectuals to say that the barbary is outside the van, that we should rather blame this crowd who creates a violent society, that the killer is a victim of this society... Come on ! The only guy with blood on his hand is inside the van, not outside !
Let me say again, that one of the two hostage crisis happening right now in Paris, linked to the Charlie Hebdo attack, is in a kosher shop, and not a rich one. There's not a kosher shop every ten meters where they are. Good luck with explaining antisemitism with something else than culture, you'll be onto very touchy topics if you want to explain it with economy...
PS : I'll leave now for the week end.
PPS : There are many factual errors in all that is written here about these attacks since it started, I can't correct all of them.
Divide & conquer always works so well.
Me too. Proper republicanism imo. No god no master (ok its an anarchist slogan, but still fits well French values.
Lets not blame Charlie Hebdo for people acting like animals.
And lets not use economic prosperity or lack thereof as an excuse for these killers. There are plenty of groups in society who are economically underprivileged and whilst they may commit low level crimes such as muggings and stealing cars they dont stoop to such atrocities.
Theres one common link between 9/11, 7/7, Madrid, Bali, Beslan, Lee Rigby, Sydney and Paris but western liberals keep falling over themselves to tell us it has nothing to do with the 'peaceful' religion of Islam. Can anyone furnish me with a list of similar atrocities perpetuated by Buddhists? Last time I looked the people of Burma and Laos weren't too well off but where are the western Buddhist suicide bombers sympathising with their brothers in these countries?
A few Staffordshire bull terriers savage some children and we label them a dangerous dog. Why arent these just extremist bull terriers acting contrary to the peace loving majority?
I'm not saying that all muslims are killers - far from it. But I wonder how many actually shed a tear that a magazine that insulted Mohammed got its comeuppance?
Say what you like about the French (and I do constantly) but unlike our lily livered government they dont mess about when someone threatens to disrupt their way of life. Bosh - straight in and goodnight Vienna.
"Let a fool hate France" as Chesterton said.
So, what did these idiots accomplish here? In the eyes of their handlers, I suppose they reckon they generated some fear (which translates into RESPECT, for those of us that don't speak 'crazy'). And what is their ultimate goal in this? IMO, it's just another thread in the tapestry of their art. The Islamother****rs in Paris, the Boko Haramisfits the other day in Nigeria, Kim Jong-unmanly in N. Korea... all pissed off little would-be Hitlers taking their pot-shots to impress themselves & make a grab at world attention & basically unobtainable (or at least short-lived) power.
To quote Carver, "pathetic."
:-L
To quote Alfred Pennyworth in TDK:
“...some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.”
I was very surprised. Not in the least that she's female but just how the f**k has she been allowed to get out of there? If I'm the mayor of Paris and I've done a Gary Oldman in Leon ('Bring me EVERYONE') I'm not expecting one of them to come up to me after and say 'we lost one'.
As far as I can tell the supermarket was under lockdown so anyone who walks out of there should be told to lie down until they are identified or shot. This is basic procedure in storming a building isn't it? All hostages are made to lie flat and are cuffed until it can be determined who is who. The notion she has just legged it and nobody has stopped her is ridiculous.
I'll be the first to say well done to the French special services for a job very well done but this an appalling error that mars such a good job.
Meanwhile in other 'religion of peace' news: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/09/abu-hamza-sentenced-life-impisonment-terrorism-conviction
Good to see some countries like France and the US protect their citizens from this scum rather than giving them a house and millions in legal aid. No doubt his wife and kids are still living in England off my taxes though.
Is it just me or does anyone else have a little giggle to themselves that according to that sketch the yanks have nicked his hooks!?! Good luck fighting off the shower rapists in prison stumpy.