CharlieHebdo

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  • edited January 2015 Posts: 11,425
    Getafix wrote: »
    No, but the foot soldiers are often the dissillusioned, isolated youth, operating on the margins of mainstream society. Many of these nutters start off as not remotely religious at all. Many of them have drifted away from the 'normal', moderate religion of their parents, and entered into petty crime, drugs etc. From there they go to prison, where they are targeted by extremists, who see them as easy prey. Having had no direction in their lives previously, extremist Islam provides meaning and purpose (or so they imagine).

    9/11 was a pretty explicit attack on the Western capitalist system.

    But I agree though that the webs of funding, finance etc. for Islamic nutters are complex and for the headcases it's not about 'rich versus poor'. But then I don't think that's what @bondjames was saying any way.

    Do you know the profile of the French terrorists of the last years, or do you think it *must* be something like this ?

    9/11 was conducted by citizens from Saudi Arabia, that's not exactly a poor country, led by an Egyptian who studied in several universities. How you can link that to the "isolated youth on margins of the society" ?

    Economy is IMO like psychoanalysis : it explains everything, but cures nothing, and cannot predict anything.

    Economic analysis might not solve much on its own, but jobs for young people (as you know France has some of the highest youth unemployment in Europe) helps drain the swamp of directionless youth on whom criminals and jihadi nutjobs prey.

    Of course it's much more complex than that, and there are plenty of nice middle class Kids equally keen on slitting throats and getting their hands on some kafir slave girls. But economics is part of the context in the banlieue and dreary public housing schemes across Europe.

    I totally accept there's a huge cultural dimension as well though. I'm fully aware of the issues the religion itself throws up. I just wonder what you're proposing we should do? Do we back ourselves into corners and start shouting ever more loudly at each other or do we look for common ground, try and identify and neutralise those elements that we can all agree are dangerous, address legitimate grievances, try and understand the contexts that lead young people in Europe into extremism and try and work out what to do about it. And at the same time try and chip away at the worst cultural aspects of Islam and help moderate Muslims foster a more open-minded interpretation of the Koran and associated teachings. There are actually many strands and traditions within Islam - one of the tragedies of globalisation is the increasing dominance of the backward wahabi strand promulgated and exported around the world by our good friends in Saudi.

    The poor policeman executed on the street in Paris was a Muslim too, or at least Muslim background. Was he part of the problem or a sign of actually what is great about France? We shouldn't let the nutters win by allowing ourselves to become ever more divided - that would be a victory for the jihadis and precisely what they are trying to achieve. They don't want people to integrate and understand each other, they want blame, retribution , hate.

    It may be too soon for the analysis, but unity and reconciliation are much stronger weapons ultimately against these lunatics than more anger and aggression. That's not so say of course that we don't go after these people with ever greater determination and ingenuity - just that we shouldn't fall into their trap of turning on each other. Whether we like it or not, Europe has a large and growing Muslim population. The jihadis see that as a great opportunity to spread mayhem. We should see it as an opportunity and a challenge to prove how wrong they are and how our best values trump theirs.
  • Posts: 4,603
    we have no direct evidence she was in the supermarket, much of the info that came out during the last three days was incorrect,
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    patb wrote: »
    we have no direct evidence she was in the supermarket, much of the info that came out during the last three days was incorrect,

    Fair enough. All the reports I saw were saying she was holed up in there too but it's hard to believe that they could let her escape so that makes sense.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    All she has to do is slip into a burqa, and leave the country. After all it violates
    A person's human rights to be " forced" to show your face. Some male terrorists
    Have done this, strange they have such a problem with gay people but are fine with cross dressing !
  • Posts: 15,105
    Kerim wrote: »
    I feel safe in saying that the Muslim faith doesn't exactly recognize gender equality. Having said that, was anyone else kind of surprised to find out that the one terrorist who escaped was a female?

    You can be a woman and be an Islamist, or any kind of religious fanatic. This woman was subservient was subservient as her religion required.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,157
    A few pages ago I read about morality.

    I think it's time we acknowledge that morality has been hijacked by religions everywhere for over 2000 years. The moral orthodoxy often refers to the Bible or the Talmud or the Koran to decide what is a "do" and what is a "don't". This is the same moral orthodoxy that a millennium ago justified the crusades, the same moral orthodoxy that justified 9/11 and the same moral orthodoxy that condones parents mishandling their more liberal spirited children to teach them the 'right' way.

    Religion can offer many great things: peace of mind, guidance in bad days, consolation in times of personal loss. But I do hope that in the 21st Century we will all be able to walk away from books written dozens of centuries ago when figuring out how the universe works and what should be considered moral and immoral in this day and age.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    A few pages ago I read about morality.

    I think it's time we acknowledge that morality has been hijacked by religions everywhere for over 2000 years. The moral orthodoxy often refers to the Bible or the Talmud or the Koran to decide what is a "do" and what is a "don't". This is the same moral orthodoxy that a millennium ago justified the crusades, the same moral orthodoxy that justified 9/11 and the same moral orthodoxy that condones parents mishandling their more liberal spirited children to teach them the 'right' way.

    Religion can offer many great things: peace of mind, guidance in bad days, consolation in times of personal loss. But I do hope that in the 21st Century we will all be able to walk away from books written dozens of centuries ago when figuring out how the universe works and what should be considered moral and immoral in this day and age.

    Indeed. While the following statement is slightly facile, the sentiment is food for thought. With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil — that takes religion.
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,423
    =D>
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    I once pointed out to a friend who's a bit of a Christian, that the only thing
    Stopping him from killing, etc was the fear he'll burn in hell ?
    Yet I an atheist have no fear of this and yet, I too don't go around killing etc.
    So I don't kill etc because I don't want to, ( then as a joke) I told him, the only
    Reason he's not, is the fear of being punished ! ;)
  • Posts: 15,105
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    A few pages ago I read about morality.

    I think it's time we acknowledge that morality has been hijacked by religions everywhere for over 2000 years. The moral orthodoxy often refers to the Bible or the Talmud or the Koran to decide what is a "do" and what is a "don't". This is the same moral orthodoxy that a millennium ago justified the crusades, the same moral orthodoxy that justified 9/11 and the same moral orthodoxy that condones parents mishandling their more liberal spirited children to teach them the 'right' way.

    Religion can offer many great things: peace of mind, guidance in bad days, consolation in times of personal loss. But I do hope that in the 21st Century we will all be able to walk away from books written dozens of centuries ago when figuring out how the universe works and what should be considered moral and immoral in this day and age.

    Like I said before, when a faith talks about moral, it often means religious devotion. Religion does not care about morality, but about worship and obedience.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    RC7 wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    A few pages ago I read about morality.

    I think it's time we acknowledge that morality has been hijacked by religions everywhere for over 2000 years. The moral orthodoxy often refers to the Bible or the Talmud or the Koran to decide what is a "do" and what is a "don't". This is the same moral orthodoxy that a millennium ago justified the crusades, the same moral orthodoxy that justified 9/11 and the same moral orthodoxy that condones parents mishandling their more liberal spirited children to teach them the 'right' way.

    Religion can offer many great things: peace of mind, guidance in bad days, consolation in times of personal loss. But I do hope that in the 21st Century we will all be able to walk away from books written dozens of centuries ago when figuring out how the universe works and what should be considered moral and immoral in this day and age.

    Indeed. While the following statement is slightly facile, the sentiment is food for thought. With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil — that takes religion.

    Very well said gents.
  • Posts: 15,105
    RC7 wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    A few pages ago I read about morality.

    I think it's time we acknowledge that morality has been hijacked by religions everywhere for over 2000 years. The moral orthodoxy often refers to the Bible or the Talmud or the Koran to decide what is a "do" and what is a "don't". This is the same moral orthodoxy that a millennium ago justified the crusades, the same moral orthodoxy that justified 9/11 and the same moral orthodoxy that condones parents mishandling their more liberal spirited children to teach them the 'right' way.

    Religion can offer many great things: peace of mind, guidance in bad days, consolation in times of personal loss. But I do hope that in the 21st Century we will all be able to walk away from books written dozens of centuries ago when figuring out how the universe works and what should be considered moral and immoral in this day and age.

    Indeed. While the following statement is slightly facile, the sentiment is food for thought. With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil — that takes religion.

    Very well said gents.

    Hitchens said that very often. I wish he was alive to comment on this.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,244
    The problem with these guys, imo, isn't religion, nor their economic background. Why do most 'islamic' terrorists come from the middle east and north Africa? After visiting Marocco and finding that boys out on the streets in Marrakech behaved just as bad as the maroccan youth in Amsterdam West, I think it's safe to say it's culture, not religion.
    Young boys grow up like princes. They get all the attention, they get all the presents and any misbehaving is accepted. But then they grow up and they find they're no prince at all. They have to work for their money (wait, what?!?!?) and don't just get anything what their heart desires. Those disgruntled boys are easy to radicalise in any extremist vision or religion.

    Indonesia is the biggest Islamic country in the world, and except for the Bali attacks no terrorists have come from there, whilst the people on Sumatra are pretty hardcore when it comes to the Q'uran. same goes for Malaysia.

  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Sadly for whatever reason, Brainwashing seemes to be very effective.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Brainwashing works like a charm, and Abrahamic religions are dualistic-you can use it to whatever cause you choose.

    Anything good done in the name of Islam would have been done anyway in the name of regular human decency. The countless gruesome attrocities perpetually committed in the name of Islam, is due to mostly one thing-Islam.

    So what is the conclusion?
  • Posts: 15,105
    I don't buy the economic argument to explain Islamic terrorism. Many were middle to upper middle class for one. Bin Laden was a bleeding millionaire! The two terrorists who did the attacks in Canada were both middle class, one was as white as they come and not a member of a financially precarious community. And if economy was the main culprit, why don't we have more terrorists coming from sub-Saharian Africa? Black Africa has been exploited by the West, economically and politically. They'd have plenty of reasons to be angry at France, the UK, the US, what have you. Especially the former two, as they have a long history of colonialism.

    No, the one common denominator is their religious faith, or to be precise a particularly zealous brand of Islam. The people at Charlie Hebdo were not exploiters, not members of the establishment, not a big evil capitalist company, not imperialists in any way, shape or form. They were murdered because they were free thinkers and secularists, because they had made fun of a man who died centuries ago. They were murdered by people who were motivated by religious devotion. The crime was religious.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Brainwashing works like a charm, and Abrahamic religions are dualistic-you can use it to whatever cause you choose.

    Anything good done in the name of Islam would have been done anyway in the name of regular human decency. The countless gruesome attrocities perpetually committed in the name of Islam, is due to mostly one thing-Islam.

    So what is the conclusion?

    Errr ban religion?
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Yes, ban any religion that presses itself on others than those who welcome it. That is politics more than spirituality anyway.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    Brainwashing works like a charm, and Abrahamic religions are dualistic-you can use it to whatever cause you choose.

    Anything good done in the name of Islam would have been done anyway in the name of regular human decency. The countless gruesome attrocities perpetually committed in the name of Islam, is due to mostly one thing-Islam.

    So what is the conclusion?

    Errr ban religion?
    No. Ridicule it. Make it a joke. Make it socially questionable to believe in fairies. Put it in peoples faces 24/7 that religiosity is a childish state of mind & that magical thinking is for toddlers.

  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Exactly, People start to think for " Yourself ", question everything !
    Don't be a sheep.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Brainwashing works like a charm, and Abrahamic religions are dualistic-you can use it to whatever cause you choose.

    Anything good done in the name of Islam would have been done anyway in the name of regular human decency. The countless gruesome attrocities perpetually committed in the name of Islam, is due to mostly one thing-Islam.

    So what is the conclusion?

    Errr ban religion?
    No. Ridicule it. Make it a joke. Make it socially questionable to believe in fairies. Put it in peoples faces 24/7 that religiosity is a childish state of mind & that magical thinking is for toddlers.

    I find it unfathomable why this doesn't happen. If you believe the earth is flat or say you are a Jedi it's fine for people to laugh at you. But say you believe in God or Allah and you expect to be treated with respect. What's the difference? Why is a story about a magical force which flows through the earth and all living creatures any more or less believable than a bloke sat on a cloud?

    Instead of the likes of Cameron praising faith schools this should be made part of the national curriculum:

    http://m.imdb.com/title/tt0815241/

    Highly recommended if you can get hold of it (even though Maher comes across as a bit of an annoying twat from time to time) but there are some priceless moments such as where he meets a jew who spends all his time working out gadgets to get round the Shabbat and when one Christian moron states 'I believe this life is just a miserable existence while we wait to join paradise.' Quick as a flash Bill says 'So why don't you kill yourself then?'

    The final message of the film 'Just grow up' is something politicians need to spread rather than the current appeasement of religion.

  • KerimKerim Istanbul Not Constantinople
    Posts: 2,629
    RC7 wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    A few pages ago I read about morality.

    I think it's time we acknowledge that morality has been hijacked by religions everywhere for over 2000 years. The moral orthodoxy often refers to the Bible or the Talmud or the Koran to decide what is a "do" and what is a "don't". This is the same moral orthodoxy that a millennium ago justified the crusades, the same moral orthodoxy that justified 9/11 and the same moral orthodoxy that condones parents mishandling their more liberal spirited children to teach them the 'right' way.

    Religion can offer many great things: peace of mind, guidance in bad days, consolation in times of personal loss. But I do hope that in the 21st Century we will all be able to walk away from books written dozens of centuries ago when figuring out how the universe works and what should be considered moral and immoral in this day and age.

    Indeed. While the following statement is slightly facile, the sentiment is food for thought. With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil — that takes religion.

    Exactly. An agnostic or atheist can live just as good, if not a better, life than someone who thinks you'll face eternal damnation if you say g**d****t or "we'll kill you if you mock our God".

    This won't happen in our lifetime, but I think hundreds of years from now all religions will be universally rejected given the violence its caused throughout the course of history and that scientific findings has provided the answers.

    I may be wrong on this, but I think religion was based on answering those questions which weren't scientifically proven yet and that civilizations branched out into their own religions. The pre-historic humans had a limited vocabulary and the word God may have qualified in their vocabulary.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    I agree long ago Religion was the science of the day to explain how and
    Why things happened. Most of us have become more enlightened.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    DrGorner wrote: »
    I agree long ago Religion was the science of the day to explain how and
    Why things happened. Most of us have become more enlightened.

    Agreed. But now science can explain that everything was cause and effect from the Big Bang onwards. OK we can't explain what triggered the Big Bang yet so if you want to call that 'God' feel free but once 'he' had lit the fuse he retreated to a safe distance and we were left on our own so what exactly are you worshipping there? A cosmic zippo lighter?
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    And the eternal life thing ? We all lead pretty boring lives as it is, why would
    You want to do it forever. :))
  • KerimKerim Istanbul Not Constantinople
    Posts: 2,629
    But, but, there's 76 angels, all virgins and, and, you'd live in clouds.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    They could be some really, really old virgins ! :))
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,244
    Kerim wrote: »
    But, but, there's 76 angels, all virgins and, and, you'd live in clouds.
    who wants virgins? I'd for sure prefer the types like Fiona Volpe...

  • edited January 2015 Posts: 4,603
    there is a great Billy Connolly sketch out there "Virgins, virgins? who needs virgins, give me fire breathing whores any day!"
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    =)) yes, Any day !
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