“Rate The Various Categories – The Fleming Novels!” - This week; TLD & OP Short Story!

13567

Comments

  • Birdleson wrote: »
    Villiers53 wrote: »
    royale65 wrote: »
    Moonraker, 1955 - 85.66 %
    Live and Let Die, 1954 – 83.44%
    Casino Royale, 1953 – 83.3%


    Updated for @Perilagu_Khan's vote
    Moonraker's increasing fan base interests me greatly.
    Over my fifty plus years of literary Bond fanaticism I have read multiple 'best of' lists and I have to say that it is only relatively recently that this literary gem has worked its way to the top of lists.
    Could it be that it's credibility was damaged by a movie that had little to do with it?
    Or, maybe Craig's success as a grittier 007 has lead to new readers discovering the books for the first time?
    Whatever the reason - it has to be good news for literary Bond!

    I can't speak for the masses, but MR has been near or at the top of my list since I first read it in the early '70s. It is just so solid and great from cover to cover.

    You are 100% correct.
    When I reflect on the perennial question of the best ever, I constantly vacillate between FRWL, OHMSS & MR as do many Bond aficionados.
    That said, go outside the circle of purists and GF, DN, CR, OHMSS & FRWL nearly always feature ahead of MR.
    I sometimes used to think that my own particular affection for it was partly driven by the UK location. I read it again last year and dispelled this theory — it's just so tight from start to finish and some of the characterisation is just fabulous. Drax is such a great villain and the whole set up is just superb.

  • Posts: 7,507
    Regarding Moonraker, I don't think the plot is Fleming's best, but the technical execution and the writing might be unmatched. I still rate FRWL and OHMSS higher because of better story material IMNSHO (In My Not So Humble Opinion :P)
  • Posts: 7,653
    For a first time reader I would always advise GF, it is a good adventure story that has some brilliant writing in it, especially the game of golf [I wanted to take up the game immediately after reading the book]. While the book is by no means his best it does a good job showing what Fleming and literary bond is capable of.
    It was my first and hooked me for the rest of the series including Colonel Sun before I ever knew there was a movie series.
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    edited February 2015 Posts: 4,423
    Great discussion guys. Personally I would rate Casino Royale, From Russia With Love, On Her Majesty's Secret Service, You Only Live Twice and quite possibly Live and Let Die ahead of Moonraker. But it is most pleasing to see Moonraker on the rise. As you said, the character of Bond and Drax, plus Fleming's writing is really top notch.

    Edit: midweek voting alert!
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,423
    Voting closes tomorrow!
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    edited February 2015 Posts: 8,267
    Diamonds are Forever:

    1. Style – 7
    |Fleming sometimes flies, sometimes just about hits the ground. Too many 'coincedences', especially concearning Leiter who's got his own mission and shouldn't be there half the time. Especially their first meeting is a bit too much.
    2. Pace – 7
    It's a fairly steady pace all along. when they get to the lizzy the story runs out of steam a bit. and though the bidding on board shoult be menacing and dark, it doesn't really work for me.
    3. Villains – 5 the Spang brothers have little 'showtime'.
    4. Heroine – 9
    Tiffany is lovely. she's been hurt and doesn't know what to do when she's happy. Fleming makes her the proper bird with a wing down. Small girl and grown woman in one.
    5. Supporting Characters – 8 Wind and Kitt are menacing enough. And of course Felix is back!
    6. Action - 8
    Bond fighting the detroit gangsters, the shooting at the taxi, the train shootout and crash.
    7. Intrigue – 7
    Not too impressive. Bond has a hard time keeping his cover up, and when it blows he seems not too distressed. And then there's the smuggling operation itself.
    8. Romance – 8
    Bond yearns for tiffany from the get go, is cautious (far more then he was in earlier adventures, he learns obviously), but still tries to seduce her. Them together on board of the liner is lovely.

    9. Benign Bizarre – 7 Serrafino with his western town and train, Wind and his thumb sucking and his attache case with 'MY BLOODGROUP IS F' on it.
    10. Bond – 8
    Bond is the slightest bit arrogant when he considers the gangs, and the thing is, in the end I can't blame him, for his other adversaries seem far more intelligent and threatening. His blown cover is just bad luck, and that's about it. In love he's more reserved then he's been in the past. he's learned from his mistakes obviously, but still indulges in Tiffany's presence. The 'professional' and the 'human'in him fight over how to treat her, as he first needs her to get him up the pipeline. He's most definately Bond. Still, he doesn't really get tested. just beaten up.

    66/100 = 66%


    CR:83
    LALD:76
    MR:68

  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,423
    Well, shall we round up Diamonds Are Forever's results up? Drum roll -

    Moonraker, 1955 - 85.66 %
    Live and Let Die, 1954 – 83.44%
    Casino Royale, 1953 – 83.3% 
    Diamonds Are Forever, 1956 – 72%


    Which puts it dead last in our rankings. Shame, but there you go.

    As always -

    What do you think of Diamonds Are Forever?

    DAF is a really good novel, until the final third-ish, when it becomes a hit and miss affair. The Spang brothers are not helping either.

    What do you think of it's cinematic adaptation?

    DAF ranks 23rd so.... Fun, breezy and macabre. And completely disposable.

    Is the community score higher or lower than your own?

    Lower. I didn’t expect DAF to get such a high score for me, and 72% from the community is'nt too bad. Still, its a Fleming, so one can't go wrong.


    Reactions are always welcomed!!

    See you later today for From Russia With Love!!! 

  • edited February 2015 Posts: 7,507
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Look at some of the scores others are giving I have to ask if you gus even like this series of books.

    66% the lowest score given to the novel most of us agree is Fleming's worst? Seems pretty solid to me...
  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    Posts: 5,080
    Birdleson wrote: »
    It's more that over all nothing has averaged in the 90s and we've already covered a couple of the generally accepted peaks in the series.

    But wasn't it the same with the film version?
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,423
    Overall Bondian Scores

    1. From Russia With Love - 92.0083%
    2. On Her Majesty's Secret Service - 88.50%
    3. Casino Royale - 87.85%

    4. The Spy Who Loved Me - 80.83%
    5. GoldenEye - 78.94%
    6. Dr No- 78.7%
    7. The Living Daylights - 78.61%
    8. For Your Eyes Only - 77.68%
    9. Thunderball - 77.47%
    10. Goldfinger - 77.23%
    11. Licence To Kill - 77.04%
    12. Octopussy - 76.61%
    13. Skyfall - 75.4%
    14. Live and Let Die - 74.52%
    15. A View To A Kill - 72.22%
    16. You Only Live Twice - 70.27%
    17. Tomorrow Never Dies - 70.20%
    18. Moonraker - 67.4%
    19. The World Is Not Enough - 63.85%
    20. The Man With The Golden Gun - 61.33%
    21. Quantum of Solace - 59.40%
    22. Diamonds Are Forever - 56.05%
    (23). Never Say Never Again – 53.08%
    (24). Casino Royale 1954 - 52.24%
    25. Die Another Day - 39.92%
    (26). Casino Royale '67 - 34.5%

    from the films thread. Three peaks. ;-)
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,423
    Let's us have a look at the novels, we've done thus far:

    Casino Royale:
    R65 – 86/100
    jobo – 80/100
    villiers- 77/100
    bird- 90/100
    may- 86/100
    pk- 89/100
    dr- 80/100
    dd- 79/100

    Not too bad, looking at the individual scores. Other a couple of miscreants gave below 80% Community gave CR a 83.3%.

    Live and Let Die:
    r65- 89/100
    jobo- 79/100
    dr- 82/100
    dd- 82/100
    bs- 92/100
    vill- 74/100
    may- 86/100
    cr- 76/100
    pk- 91/100

    I'm surprised this one beat out CR, tbh. Looking at the individual scores, one can see why, however. Community gave LALD a 83.44%. Just beating CR.

    Moonraker:
    R65- 78/100
    jobo- 85/100
    may- 91/100
    bs- 96/100
    dr- 87/100
    vill- 88/100
    cr- 68/100
    dd- 84/100
    pk- 94/100

    Surprising I gave MR one of the lowest scores. The community seems to really love Fleming's third novels, giving it a deserving 85.66%

    Diamonds Are Forever:
    R65- 80
    dd- 81
    may- 66
    bs- 80
    jobo- 67
    vill- 64
    cr- 66

    Right in the middle of our two extremes (60ish% and 80ish%) – 70ish%.

    I think the character of Bond, has been widely lauded and appreciated, during this run. Only DAF, fails to live up to its illustrious predecessors. I blame the villains, the pacing and the overall plot, on DAF's disappointing returns.

    I don't like giving out "10" it seems. Apart from the "Bond Category", of course ;-)
  • edited February 2015 Posts: 7,507
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I'm talking about all of the books so far. I'm shocked at the low ratings. I assumed we all love these books. If the best we're giving is 87 percent what does that say on a site devoted to the character in question?

    Well, so far I have tried to be as critical in my evaluation as i possibly could be. Love fests are boring, critical evaluation is interesting. Its much more giving to rate the novels as a casual reader would, and not a die hard Bond fan. That is my opinion at least...

    Besides, an objective, systematic rating done on the premise of categories doesn't say that much about ones' overall appreciation of each novel. That goes without saying I think...

    My personal favourites are yet to come, more or less... Just wait for the next one. ;)
  • Posts: 7,507
    But that's the format of this thread isn't it? If I was asked to give a number from 1 to 10 illustrating how much I enjoy each of these books, I would be throwing out 10s and 9s, maybe even 11s. But that's not what we're doing. We're objectively rating a set of categories...
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    edited February 2015 Posts: 4,423
    I don't know about you guys, but I have a different rating system for the Bonds, to other films. For example DAF. My least favorite Bond film. I would maybe have DAF as a maybe a 6/10 on my Bondian scale. But it's a stone cold 9/10 compared to other films. Maybe thats what the other participants are trying to do, re the novels.

    Edit - maybe I should have put in a "tilt category" like in the films thread. C'est la vie ;-)
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,423
    From Russia With Love, 1957

    /10
    1. Style - 10
    2. Pace – 9
    3. Villains – 10
    4. Heroine – 9
    5. Supporting Characters - 10
    6. Action – 10
    7. Intrigue – 10
    8. Romance – 9
    9. Benign Bizarre – 9
    10. Bond – 10

    96%

    Almost perfect
  • edited February 2015 Posts: 7,507
    From Russia With Love, 1957

    /10
    1. Style - 10
    2. Pace – 8 (If I have a tiny complaint, it is that part one carries on slightly too long)
    3. Villains – 10 (The best ensemble by far! All of them could have been main villains!)
    4. Heroine – 10 (Maybe the most interesting of the lot)
    5. Supporting Characters - 10 (very good through out)
    6. Action – 9
    7. Intrigue – 10
    8. Romance – 10 (A very interesting dynamic between the two protagonists)
    9. Benign Bizarre – 8
    10. Bond – 10


    95/100

    95%


    Happy now, "Birdie" @Birdleson? ;)


    From Russia With Love 95%
    Moonraker 85%
    Casino Royale 79%
    Live And Let Die 79%
    Diamonds Are Forever 67%
  • Birdleson wrote: »
    I'm not talking about a love fest, by any means, but if the bulk of a persons evaluations are in the low 80s or below I wonder if they actually enjoy these books. I truly count this series among my favorite novels. If I didn't I wouldn't be spending so much time on these boards.
    Keep your powder dry - we are just getting to the great stuff!
    Yes, he is the master but not all Bond was born equal.

  • From Russia With Love, 1957

    1) Style - 10
    2) Pace - 10
    3) Villains - 10
    4) Heroine - 8
    5) Supporting Characters - 10
    6) Action - 10
    7) Intrigue - 8
    8) Romance - 8
    9) Benign Bizarre - 10
    10)Bond - 10

    Not just the best Bond novel but one of the greatest spy novels ever written.
    One of the paradoxes of 007 is that although it's my favourite series when I go book by book, it is only FRWL that features in my all time top ten spy novels.
    If ever there was a case of the whole being greater than the sum of its parts, it is Fleming.
    That said FRWL is the exception. It's the closest Fleming ever came to writing a straight flat out spy novel and it was, IVNSHO, the book that made Bond.
    The whole thing was pitch perfect - a great set up, fabulous locations (Istanbul has always been spy central), two hideous villains and terrific pace all wrapped in the greatest cover art ever created for a fiction novel - thank you Mr.Chopping!
    Furthermore this is the one that put IF up there with his own heroes, Ambler and Greene.
    If it has two slight weaknesses it is the fact that the central plot was so obviously a trap and the fact that I always found Tatiana less desirable than Fleming's top femme fatales.

    CR: 77/100
    L&LD: 74/100
    MR: 88/100
    DAF: 64/100
    FRWL: 96/100
  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    Posts: 5,080
    From Russia With Love, 1957

    1) Style - 10
    2) Pace - 9
    3) Villains - 10
    4) Heroine - 9
    5) Supporting Characters - 10
    6) Action - 9
    7) Intrigue - 10
    8) Romance - 8
    9) Benign Bizarre - 8
    10)Bond - 10

    93/100

    93%
  • Sorry I'm late!

    Diamonds Are Forever 1956

    1.Style - 10
    2.Pace - 9
    3.Villain - 6
    4.Heroine -9 (one seriously messed up chick! Good thing Bond got shed of her before FRWL)
    5.Supporting Characters - 9
    6.Action - 9 (much better than usually credited)
    7.Intrigue -7
    8.Romance -8
    9.Benign/Bizarre - 8 (Acme Baths, the train chase, Wint & Kidd)
    10.Bond -10

    85/100
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,267
    @Birdleson indeed this is my Bond/Fleming rating. I.e. if we'd compare to other book series the scores would be higher. considerably. If we stick to Bond and start rating the non-Fleming Bonds as well there are only two I can score and those two, Devil May Care (I don't) and Carte Blanche would end up close to nil. Compared to Fleming they're that bad.

    What do you think of Diamonds Are Forever?

    DAF feels to me like Fleming just didn't have any proper inspiration. The bad guys aren't that clever at all, and though Bond himself falls in love, sorto f, and ends up with the lovely Tiffany, there just isn't much of the 'wow they made it' feeling at all.

    What do you think of it's cinematic adaptation?

    not much. It could've been a good film if it wasn't made so sloppy.

    Is the community score higher or lower than your own?

    Higher, but I'm a bit harsh here on the novels, so I won't expect it otherwise for any of the other novels.


  • From Russia With Love, 1957

    1) Style - 10
    2) Pace - 9
    3) Villains - 10
    4) Heroine - 9
    5) Supporting Characters - 8
    6) Action - 7 (one of Fleming's least "active" novels, but that's okay)
    7) Intrigue - 9
    8) Romance - 8
    9) Benign Bizarre - 6 (outside of Grant's moon-phase psychopathy, not much here)
    10)Bond - 10

    86/100
  • Birdleson wrote: »
    @Birdleson indeed this is my Bond/Fleming rating. I.e. if we'd compare to other book series the scores would be higher.


    I think that I tried to get that clarified early on in this endeavor. If we are rating them Fleming to Fleming, there is a larger disparity (almost by definition, then, I would have DAF at 1% and MR at 100%), but if we are ranking the components of the books in terms of all of I've ever read, crap to classics, which is what I've been doing, they all come off looking pretty good to great.

    Interesting. Where would you place Fleming's Bond within your top 10 all time spy novels?

  • OK @Birdleson, here we go:

    1. The Honourable Schoolboy by John Le Carre (1977)
    2. Berlin Game by Len Deighton (1983)
    3. The Tears Of Autumn by Charles McCarry (1974)
    4. From Russia With Love by Ian Fleming (1957)
    5. The Day Of The Jackal by Frederick Forsyth (1971)
    6. Sabre Tooth by Peter O'Donnell (1966)
    7. Typhoon by Charles Cumming (2008)
    8. Mission To Paris by Alan Furst (2012)
    9. The Mask Of Domitrios by Eric Ambler (1939)
    10. The Dying Light by Henry Porter (2009)

    This for me, is the paradox of Bond. When I rate the books within the context of my thus far all time spy thrillers, only FRWL slips in at #5.
    Conversely, when I think of my all time favourite series, Bond vies with Peter O'Donnell's Blaise and Len Deighton's Samson for the crown. This is why, IVNSHO, the sum of Bond is bigger than the individual parts.
    Of course some aficionados may argue that I'm comparing very different things: Le Carre's stark, politically informed realism with the outright fantasy of Blaise or the faction of Forsyth but, for me, they all are quality books that belong to the same genre and that have thrilled me.
  • Birdleson wrote: »
    @Birdleson indeed this is my Bond/Fleming rating. I.e. if we'd compare to other book series the scores would be higher.


    I think that I tried to get that clarified early on in this endeavor. If we are rating them Fleming to Fleming, there is a larger disparity (almost by definition, then, I would have DAF at 1% and MR at 100%), but if we are ranking the components of the books in terms of all of I've ever read, crap to classics, which is what I've been doing, they all come off looking pretty good to great.

    Agreed. Were I to teach a college course on the thriller, there would be at least three Flemings on the reading list, while I doubt any other author would manage more than one. I love David Stone, Gerald Seymour, and to a lesser extent, Clive Cussler, but Fleming is the godfather of them all.

  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,267
    Birdleson wrote: »
    @Villiers53 , I've actually only read two on your list, so I can't speak to it in detail, but it is diverse. I have been given a Deighton as a gist and I plan on getting to it. I've been trying to read all Le Carre, but have several to go, such as THE HONOURABLE SCHOOLBOY. Another of my favorites is MARATHON MAN by William Goldman.
    I've read many and THS is an excellent book, just as Smiley's People and The Man Who Came In From The Cold. His later work I like less and less. I don't know why, but it seems not as dark and well composed I guess. Ambler I couldn't get through and Ludlum is a half-baked writr if you ask me.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,267
    @Birdleson thanks! will do.

    The one I can't find on my shelves, so I'll have to do this from long-ago memory. which is a pity because this is a very good one.

    From Russia With Love, 1957

    1) Style - 10
    2) Pace - 9
    I remember this starting off far more intreguing then DAF, and keeping it up all the way.
    3) Villains - 10
    Red Grant, Klebb.
    4) Heroine - 9
    Tania is a lovely girl and she sure plays it well.

    5) Supporting Characters - 8
    6) Action - 7 not too much, but the tension sure makes up for that
    7) Intrigue - 10. From the get-go it's all to lure Bond in and make him fall down. Then there's Tania herself falling in love with Bond and double crossing the Soviets.
    8) Romance - 8
    9) Benign Bizarre - 7 Foremost Red Grant and his werewolfishness. The Gypsyfight I think counts here as well.

    10)Bond - 10

    88/100 or 88%


  • I've read many and THS is an excellent book, just as Smiley's People and The Man Who Came In From The Cold. His later work I like less and less. I don't know why, but it seems not as dark and well composed I guess. Ambler I couldn't get through and Ludlum is a half-baked writr if you ask me.

    I agree that Le Carre's earlier work was his best with two exceptions and I was wondering if you've read them.
    'The Constant Gardner' was a great book and his latest, 'A Delicate Truth' was a real return to form and is, IVNSHO, one of his absolute best. Stays with you forever.
    As for Ludlum, I couldn't agree with you more. He was a sleeping tablet of some proportion.


  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,267
    Villiers53 wrote: »
    I've read many and THS is an excellent book, just as Smiley's People and The Man Who Came In From The Cold. His later work I like less and less. I don't know why, but it seems not as dark and well composed I guess. Ambler I couldn't get through and Ludlum is a half-baked writr if you ask me.

    I agree that Le Carre's earlier work was his best with two exceptions and I was wondering if you've read them.
    'The Constant Gardner' was a great book and his latest, 'A Delicate Truth' was a real return to form and is, IVNSHO, one of his absolute best. Stays with you forever.
    As for Ludlum, I couldn't agree with you more. He was a sleeping tablet of some proportion.


    nope, haven't read TCG nor ADT, but will do now. thanks!
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,423
    Great views chaps Remember, voting closes this weekend.
Sign In or Register to comment.