No Time To Die: Production Diary

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  • edited September 2017 Posts: 4,619
    @patb You are absolutely right, but unfortunately the situation was EVEN WORSE. They did not start with the adopted brother idea, they started with "hey let's use Blofeld except we have no idea what to do with him". First Blofeld was a black South-African guy. Then she was "an ugly lesbian" (a direct quote from one of the leaked e-mails). Only after that did they decide to stick with white male. They had absolutely no idea what to do with Blofeld. Which would be okay during the early writing process, except they were already making filming arrengements when they well still figuring out what to do with the film's main villain.

    @ColonelSun: My point is that it should be INCREDIBLY easy to produce a very good Bond script within one year if you have the money BB/EON/MGM had on the script and you are not even the one writing it.
  • Posts: 1,493
    @patb You are absolutely right, but unfortunately the situation was EVEN WORSE. They did not start with the adopted brother idea, they started with "hey let's use Blofeld except we have no idea what to do with him". First Blofeld was a black South-African guy. Then she was "an ugly lesbian" (a direct quote from one of the leaked e-mails). Only after that did they decide to stick with white male. They had absolutely no idea what to do with Blofeld. Which would be okay during the early writing process, except they were already making filming arrengements when they well still figuring out what to do with the film's main villain.

    Dr. No was a monkey in one draft.

  • Posts: 1,031
    @patb You are absolutely right, but unfortunately the situation was EVEN WORSE. They did not start with the adopted brother idea, they started with "hey let's use Blofeld except we have no idea what to do with him". First Blofeld was a black South-African guy. Then she was "an ugly lesbian" (a direct quote from one of the leaked e-mails). Only after that did they decide to stick with white male. They had absolutely no idea what to do with Blofeld. Which would be okay during the early writing process, except they were already making filming arrengements when they well still figuring out what to do with the film's main villain.

    It's not unusual in the film business for such a situation to occur. I don't think you've experienced the practical and logistical realities of making a major production. You sound very naive.
  • edited September 2017 Posts: 4,619
    ColonelSun wrote: »
    @patb You are absolutely right, but unfortunately the situation was EVEN WORSE. They did not start with the adopted brother idea, they started with "hey let's use Blofeld except we have no idea what to do with him". First Blofeld was a black South-African guy. Then she was "an ugly lesbian" (a direct quote from one of the leaked e-mails). Only after that did they decide to stick with white male. They had absolutely no idea what to do with Blofeld. Which would be okay during the early writing process, except they were already making filming arrengements when they well still figuring out what to do with the film's main villain.

    Dr. No was a monkey in one draft.
    "Which would be okay during the early writing process"

    @Dennison You know what else isn't unusual in the film business? That a movie turns out to be awful. Just because something is "usual" that doesn't make it OK. Nolan or Tarantino would NEVER start making arrengements related to filming while still figuring out the basics of their scripts.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    ColonelSun wrote: »
    @patb You are absolutely right, but unfortunately the situation was EVEN WORSE. They did not start with the adopted brother idea, they started with "hey let's use Blofeld except we have no idea what to do with him". First Blofeld was a black South-African guy. Then she was "an ugly lesbian" (a direct quote from one of the leaked e-mails). Only after that did they decide to stick with white male. They had absolutely no idea what to do with Blofeld. Which would be okay during the early writing process, except they were already making filming arrengements when they well still figuring out what to do with the film's main villain.

    Dr. No was a monkey in one draft.
    "Which would be okay during the early writing process"

    So it was late on when Christoph Waltz agreed to come on board, and they still didn't have a script to show him?
  • NicNac wrote: »
    Assessments by who?

    Just by the people I have talked about it. They of course don't have the insight and knowledge of the people here on this forum, but they have taste and perceptions ( and a wallet ) as well.
  • Posts: 4,619
    NicNac wrote: »
    ColonelSun wrote: »
    @patb You are absolutely right, but unfortunately the situation was EVEN WORSE. They did not start with the adopted brother idea, they started with "hey let's use Blofeld except we have no idea what to do with him". First Blofeld was a black South-African guy. Then she was "an ugly lesbian" (a direct quote from one of the leaked e-mails). Only after that did they decide to stick with white male. They had absolutely no idea what to do with Blofeld. Which would be okay during the early writing process, except they were already making filming arrengements when they well still figuring out what to do with the film's main villain.

    Dr. No was a monkey in one draft.
    "Which would be okay during the early writing process"

    So it was late on when Christoph Waltz agreed to come on board, and they still didn't have a script to show him?
    Mendes first talked with Waltz in the summer of 2014, but they didn't close the deal with him until late October 2014.
  • RC7 wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    NicNac wrote: »
    I was going to make the same point @Dennison. I'm sure if we had access to the production of any major multi million dollar film we would see the same.

    But not any multi million dollar production turns out a train wreck like SP

    In your mind and others it may have been a train wreck but the general consensus skews towards it being a well made film ...

    No it isn't. The most polite assessment about I have heard is "I find it a little bit boring", while some are decidedly harder on it.

    In terms of craft it's a well made film. Editorially everyone has their own individual issues.
    ColonelSun wrote: »
    Hilarious! It's all so simple.
    Having a decent 120-140 page long Bond script in your hands after 1.5 years is really that simple, escpecially if you are not the one who has to write it. Give me the amount of money they gave John Logan for Spectre, and I guarantee you that I will hand you a Bond script just as good as CR within ONE year.

    What makes you think Barbara was happy with Logan's work?

    Well, you see that's exactly the problem. If she hasn't made it a habit to read the scripts of the movies she's going to make well in advance of the shooting start, to me she is simply in the wrong position. She might know very well about the technical aspects and how and whom to hire for what but the creative part? I don't think so!
  • Dennison wrote: »
    ColonelSun wrote: »
    ColonelSun wrote: »
    Hilarious! It's all so simple.
    Having a decent 120-140 page long Bond script in your hands after 1.5 years is really that simple, escpecially if you are not the one who has to write it. Give me the amount of money they gave John Logan for Spectre, and I guarantee you that I will hand you a Bond script just as good as CR within ONE year.

    You guarantee? So you're an experienced screenwriter?
    LOL, I would obviously play BB's role (hiring screenwriters to write the script) in this scenario.

    @Dennison No, she didn't. Logan did not even start working on Spectre's script in the first six months after Skyfall.

    So, what does it matter if the work didn't start after six months? Spectre's not that bad a film too. It's not great granted, but it's no Die Another Day.

    If only it was, then it would at least be entertaining.
  • ColonelSun wrote: »
    @patb You are absolutely right, but unfortunately the situation was EVEN WORSE. They did not start with the adopted brother idea, they started with "hey let's use Blofeld except we have no idea what to do with him". First Blofeld was a black South-African guy. Then she was "an ugly lesbian" (a direct quote from one of the leaked e-mails). Only after that did they decide to stick with white male. They had absolutely no idea what to do with Blofeld. Which would be okay during the early writing process, except they were already making filming arrengements when they well still figuring out what to do with the film's main villain.

    Dr. No was a monkey in one draft.

    But they didn't take that one. That's exactly the point.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited September 2017 Posts: 23,883
    I'm sure we can all agree that things could have been done better on the SP production, which by all accounts was troubled.

    Hopefully everyone has learned their lesson, and approaches B25 with humility, renewed commitment and focus.
  • Posts: 1,493
    ColonelSun wrote: »
    @patb You are absolutely right, but unfortunately the situation was EVEN WORSE. They did not start with the adopted brother idea, they started with "hey let's use Blofeld except we have no idea what to do with him". First Blofeld was a black South-African guy. Then she was "an ugly lesbian" (a direct quote from one of the leaked e-mails). Only after that did they decide to stick with white male. They had absolutely no idea what to do with Blofeld. Which would be okay during the early writing process, except they were already making filming arrengements when they well still figuring out what to do with the film's main villain.

    Dr. No was a monkey in one draft.

    But they didn't take that one. That's exactly the point.

    Yep, it's script development - and there can be some crazy ideas thrown around - believe me. I'm afraid it is evident from his posts that @PanchitoPistoles is very, very naive about screenwriting, production and producing.
  • Posts: 4,617
    Someone right at the top of the pyramid must act as "the gate keeper" to filter out bad ideas. Other stuff comes later like dialogue, locations, actions, kighting etc etc etc.

    But someone has to know what works within the Bond series and what doest. Scripts pivot around core concepts that can be pitched in 2 mins and rejected (or accepted) in 2 seconds.

    Central core or CR ? yes Central core of QoS Yes (execution was the issue), central core of SF Yes central core of SP? (author of ALL your pain, adopted brother) no.







  • Posts: 1,031
    patb wrote: »
    Someone right at the top of the pyramid must act as "the gate keeper" to filter out bad ideas. Other stuff comes later like dialogue, locations, actions, kighting etc etc etc.

    But someone has to know what works within the Bond series and what doest. Scripts pivot around core concepts that can be pitched in 2 mins and rejected (or accepted) in 2 seconds.

    Central core or CR ? yes Central core of QoS Yes (execution was the issue), central core of SF Yes central core of SP? (author of ALL your pain, adopted brother) no.







    The foster brother angle wasn't a core feature of original drafts/initial ideas.
  • Posts: 4,617
    Still had to be approved by the top of the pyramid
  • edited September 2017 Posts: 19,339

    They must have had so many chances to dump that ,surely someone,somewhere realised it was a terrible idea ?!

  • Posts: 1,493
    patb wrote: »
    Someone right at the top of the pyramid must act as "the gate keeper" to filter out bad ideas. Other stuff comes later like dialogue, locations, actions, kighting etc etc etc.

    But someone has to know what works within the Bond series and what doest. Scripts pivot around core concepts that can be pitched in 2 mins and rejected (or accepted) in 2 seconds.

    Central core or CR ? yes Central core of QoS Yes (execution was the issue), central core of SF Yes central core of SP? (author of ALL your pain, adopted brother) no.



    The reality and the issue with big budget films is that, even with strong writers, producers and directors at the helm of the actual production, there are always tons of other voices and opinions (studio execs, distribution, sales, financiers, A list actors etc. etc.) to have to deal with - and that's why, however easy you want it to be or believe it should be - it just doesn't happen like that. Even modest budget independent films have to cope with outside interference from financiers and sales and distribution etc. Easy it never is - and the real talent is being able to work under this kind of sustained creative and commercial pressure.
  • Posts: 4,617
    Producers obviously delegate much of their work but not these core concept approvals.
  • Posts: 4,619
    @ColonelSun You still don't get it. Throwing crazy ideas around during script development is not inherently a bad thing. What IS a bad thing is not having the basics of the screenplay in place before starting to make specific arrengements related to filming.
  • ColonelSun wrote: »
    ColonelSun wrote: »
    @patb You are absolutely right, but unfortunately the situation was EVEN WORSE. They did not start with the adopted brother idea, they started with "hey let's use Blofeld except we have no idea what to do with him". First Blofeld was a black South-African guy. Then she was "an ugly lesbian" (a direct quote from one of the leaked e-mails). Only after that did they decide to stick with white male. They had absolutely no idea what to do with Blofeld. Which would be okay during the early writing process, except they were already making filming arrengements when they well still figuring out what to do with the film's main villain.

    Dr. No was a monkey in one draft.

    But they didn't take that one. That's exactly the point.

    Yep, it's script development - and there can be some crazy ideas thrown around - believe me. I'm afraid it is evident from his posts that @PanchitoPistoles is very, very naive about screenwriting, production and producing.

    Just because he expects them to be done professionally?
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    ColonelSun wrote: »
    ColonelSun wrote: »
    @patb You are absolutely right, but unfortunately the situation was EVEN WORSE. They did not start with the adopted brother idea, they started with "hey let's use Blofeld except we have no idea what to do with him". First Blofeld was a black South-African guy. Then she was "an ugly lesbian" (a direct quote from one of the leaked e-mails). Only after that did they decide to stick with white male. They had absolutely no idea what to do with Blofeld. Which would be okay during the early writing process, except they were already making filming arrengements when they well still figuring out what to do with the film's main villain.

    Dr. No was a monkey in one draft.

    But they didn't take that one. That's exactly the point.

    Yep, it's script development - and there can be some crazy ideas thrown around - believe me. I'm afraid it is evident from his posts that @PanchitoPistoles is very, very naive about screenwriting, production and producing.

    Just because he expects them to be done professionally?

    Taking issue with 'brother gate' is one thing, claiming wholesale knowledge of the industry to a point where you consider yourself a 'better Producer' than Barbara Brocolli, based on some leaked emails, is Broadmoor territory.
  • MinionMinion Don't Hassle the Bond
    Posts: 1,165
    barryt007 wrote: »
    They must have had so many chances to dump that ,surely someone,somewhere realised it was a terrible idea ?!

    Mendes liked that angle, and after the success of Skyfall who'd tell him he was wrong?

    You might not like how they linked Bond and Blofeld, but there's nothing inherently wrong with that idea if its pulled off well. It's all in the execution.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    RC7 wrote: »
    ColonelSun wrote: »
    ColonelSun wrote: »
    @patb You are absolutely right, but unfortunately the situation was EVEN WORSE. They did not start with the adopted brother idea, they started with "hey let's use Blofeld except we have no idea what to do with him". First Blofeld was a black South-African guy. Then she was "an ugly lesbian" (a direct quote from one of the leaked e-mails). Only after that did they decide to stick with white male. They had absolutely no idea what to do with Blofeld. Which would be okay during the early writing process, except they were already making filming arrengements when they well still figuring out what to do with the film's main villain.

    Dr. No was a monkey in one draft.

    But they didn't take that one. That's exactly the point.

    Yep, it's script development - and there can be some crazy ideas thrown around - believe me. I'm afraid it is evident from his posts that @PanchitoPistoles is very, very naive about screenwriting, production and producing.

    Just because he expects them to be done professionally?

    Taking issue with 'brother gate' is one thing, claiming wholesale knowledge of the industry to a point where you consider yourself a 'better Producer' than Barbara Brocolli, based on some leaked emails, is Broadmoor territory.

    Apparently a large percentage of forum members are better producers than Barbara Broccoli! Take note, the future of Bond is safe.
  • Posts: 1,493
    @ColonelSun You still don't get it. Throwing crazy ideas around during script development is not inherently a bad thing. What IS a bad thing is not having the basics of the screenplay in place before starting to make specific arrengements related to filming.

    Of course I get it, I'm a screenwriter, I do the job day in and day out. A screenplay builds up from either an initial pitch and/or script discussions between the writer and producers - and if hired at that time, the director as well. From discussions and/or pitch, an outline is written (say 5-15 pages), and then gradually it is expanded into a full treatment (25 - 50 pages), and then, when the producers feel happy with the treatment, they hire the writer to do a 1st draft screenplay. However, sometimes the first draft screenplay, as it naturally grows from the treatment and takes shape, ends up not playing out as well as hoped or planned. Writing a screenplay is very difficult, whatever you might think, and so, even with the best writers in the world, a screenplay can end up being less than hoped for, plus the producers have others (studio execs etc.) who will throw in their opinions as well. Sometimes those opinions derail a script even more, sometimes those opinions are spot on and help the producers and writer/s re-work the material. Sometimes that means returning to treatment form before writing another draft, and I suspect this is what happened with SP after Logan delivered his draft. As I say, easy it ain't, whatever you choose to believe.
  • Posts: 4,619
    @ColonelSun Asking again: can you please post a link to your imdb page? Or send it in a personal message? And I do believe you that writing a screenplay is very difficult. What's not difficult is hiring other people to write one for you in 1.5 YEARS. It's BB's fault that they didn't have a finished (or at least near finished) screenplay for Spectre 1.5 YEARS after the release of Skyfall.
  • Posts: 4,617
    Minion wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    They must have had so many chances to dump that ,surely someone,somewhere realised it was a terrible idea ?!

    Mendes liked that angle, and after the success of Skyfall who'd tell him he was wrong?

    I would and BB should have aswell

  • Posts: 1,493
    @ColonelSun Asking again: can you please post a link to your imdb page? Or send it in a personal message? And I do believe you that writing a screenplay is very difficult. What's not difficult is hiring other people to write one for you in 1.5 YEARS. It's BB's fault that they didn't have a finished (or at least near finished) screenplay for Spectre 1.5 YEARS after the release of Skyfall.

    As I say, big budget production is very complex and, I'm afraid - and I do not mean to belittle you in anyway - it appears you don't understand the reality of film production (if you don't work in films, why should you? - Just as I might have no idea about what you do) - but nothing in film production is, as you state, "not difficult" - I sure wish it was easier. And, with due respect, I am here as ColonelSun, (and I am not asking for your personal details,) so, no, I am not giving you my details via IMDb.
  • @ColonelSun Asking again: can you please post a link to your imdb page? Or send it in a personal message? And I do believe you that writing a screenplay is very difficult. What's not difficult is hiring other people to write one for you in 1.5 YEARS. It's BB's fault that they didn't have a finished (or at least near finished) screenplay for Spectre 1.5 YEARS after the release of Skyfall.

    He might want to keep that private to be fair, and for good reason. Otherwise you could easily get someone saying "shut up you worked on xyz so you can't talk" if he says anything remotely critical about one of their posts.

    But @ColonelSun has talked in detail about his experience working on LTK (not as a screenwriter but he was involved in production) before, so assuming he's been in the film/TV industry that whole time he'll have decades worth of experience. So you'll forgive me if I take his word over yours and cut EON some slack on this one. After all we were all buzzing when it was revealed that Logan was taking over and Purvis and Wade were gone. Can we really blame Barbara for his drafts? You say they didn't hire people but as far as I'm aware they did hire several writers, it's just that it took those various writers a while to come up with a good draft.
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    patb wrote: »
    "The fact she is Cubby's daughter and was brought up within the industry and therefore had good schooling makes her 100% more qualified to produce movies than even the most switched on forum member. "

    On that basis, we just bring up our kids within the idustry that their parents work in and they become 100% qualified. If only HR could use this method rather then spend millions trying to find decent staff.

    Her experience/back ground gives her insight. But that does not equate to "100% qualified"

    Agreed! I'm sorry but her remit as a producer in the way she handled the preproduction of SP almost negates her credibility. I don't want to be too harsh on her because I'll give credit where it's due; she has made some good calls as a producer but man oh man, SP is a world class case study in deriliction of duty and fundamentally failing to do your job. A shambles and disaster doesnt come close to adequately describing what a colossal error in judgement she and Mickey Willy employed.
  • edited September 2017 Posts: 4,619
    @ColonelSun We are talking about producing a script. When it comes to producing the script, the size of the producton is pretty irrelevant. Would producing a decent script in 1.5 YEARS have been any easier had Spectre been a medium budget movie? Of coure not. As for personal details, I don't care about your personal details, I simply would like to know what movies you have written.

    @doubleoego Well said! I used to consider BB a great producer, but then I read the SONY leaks. Now I'm really hoping Bond 25 will be the last Bond film she is involved with. (and that goes for MGW too)
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