No Time To Die: Production Diary

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  • JeffreyJeffrey The Netherlands
    edited September 2017 Posts: 308
    SeanCraig wrote: »
    When Adele won an Oscar for Skyfall, I felt it well-deserved ... yet Writings On The Wall also did win an Oscar, so ... they mean nothing. Bring back Arnold, please. I am listening to his QoS soundtrack right now and it's great ...

    What is it with this fixation on David Arnold. There are so many other great movie composers. Yesterday I posted this picture about Trekkies. But in a way, this also applies to many Bond fans these days:

    -image-

    Complaining - or expressing a wish or preference - might just show how deeply a fan cares about the wellbeing of the franchise. :) *

    I heard something like this recently (not really applies, but still, I liked it): "Behind most cynicism lies a craving of idealism."

    *IMHO.
  • Posts: 19,339
    David Arnold is 100% better then Newman re the Bond scores,imo.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    barryt007 wrote: »
    David Arnold is 100% better then Newman re the Bond scores,imo.
    All the way, without a shadow of doubt.
  • edited September 2017 Posts: 11,119
    barryt007 wrote: »
    David Arnold is 100% better then Newman re the Bond scores,imo.

    I'd say: David Arnold was quite amazing at the start of his tenure. Tracks like "White Knight", "Backseat Driver" (TND) and "Come In 007, Your Time Is Up", "Snow Business" really gave me a John Barry-vibe with a touch of modern electro in it. Those tracks had melody, had original leitmotifs, and were easy to hum/whistle.

    His theme songs "Surrender" and "The World Is Not Enough" are among my favourites together with Epworth's "Skyfall" and Napier's "Writing's On The Wall". But I never understood why plain from 'da block' style rock artists helped Craig's first two outings feel like...a real Bond film.

    So, I love his earlier work on Bond. But starting with DAD I got tired of it. And I think with CR and QOS he stripped his score down way too much into a blunt, rough, cold score, in which the romantic and more quiet parts of his score were a failure to me. It didn't do it for me. Just listen to "We Have All The Time In The World"..I wanted to hear something marvellous like that as an instrumental. I didn't hear it.

    Moreover, David Arnold seems to be somewhat of a British reclusive these days. He said goodbye to Hollywood, doesn't care about focusing on a career out there. Apart from that he lacks a more classic schooling, in which he actually writes music at the piano, or where he is a perfectionistic conductor. He isn't that.

    So when I then compare him with Thomas Newman, I must say that he is slightly more skilled these days. Doesn't mean I only want him. We have discussed many alternative movie composers as well, who haven't done a Bond film yet. Just read some of @BondJames proposals. Or what about my favourite Daniel Pemberton. I even love Henry Jackman's scores for "Kingsman" more than Arnold.




    So here you go, another nuanced set of arguments why David Arnold isn't just bad....or good :-).
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited September 2017 Posts: 23,883
    I detect a resistance to change on these forums. Whether it comes to new Bond actors or new composers etc. A shame. I've always felt that this series has survived and renewed itself over 50+ years precisely because it wasn't afraid to be bold and try new things, while still respecting its rich history.

    Arnold's had his five. Newman's had his two. These are the only two people who've done a Bond score in 20 years.

    I find it laughable whenever I read comparisons between Arnold and Barry. John Barry is a respected giant amongst film composers. One of the all time greats who shaped romantic and suspense scores for a generation. I suspect many won't even remember David Arnold 10 years from now. Thomas Newman may not be everyone's cup of tea, but he is a highly respected composer in the industry.

    Craig is back and if B25 is to continue on from the storyline of the last two Bond films, then I can understand why the producers may want Newman back. He wouldn't be my first choice, but I'm not all that enthusiastic about a continuation story either. It makes sense though.
  • bondjames wrote: »
    I detect a resistance to change on these forums. Whether it comes to new Bond actors or new composers etc. A shame. I've always felt that this series has survived and renewed itself over 50+ years precisely because it wasn't afraid to be bold and try new things, while still respecting its rich history.

    Arnold's had his five. Newman's had his two. These are the only two people who've done a Bond score in 20 years.

    I find it laughable whenever I read comparisons between Arnold and Barry. John Barry is a respected giant amongst film composers. One of the all time greats who shaped romantic and suspense scores for a generation. I suspect many won't even remember David Arnold 10 years from now. Thomas Newman may not be everyone's cup of tea, but he is a highly respected composer in the industry.

    Craig is back and if B25 is to continue on from the storyline of the last two Bond films, then I can understand why the producers may want Newman back. He wouldn't be my first choice, but I'm not all that enthusiastic about a continuation story either. It makes sense though.

    Hear hear!
  • WalecsWalecs On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    edited September 2017 Posts: 3,157
    barryt007 wrote: »
    David Arnold is 100% better then Newman re the Bond scores,imo.

    So, I love his earlier work on Bond. But starting with DAD I got tired of it. And I think with CR and QOS he stripped his score down way too much into a blunt, rough, cold score, in which the romantic and more quiet parts of his score were a failure to me. It didn't do it for me. Just listen to "We Have All The Time In The World"..I wanted to hear something marvellous like that as an instrumental. I didn't hear it.

    Moreover, David Arnold seems to be somewhat of a British reclusive these days. He said goodbye to Hollywood, doesn't care about focusing on a career out there. Apart from that he lacks a more classic schooling, in which he actually writes music at the piano, or where he is a perfectionistic conductor. He isn't that.

    1. First of all, WHATTITW is among the most beautiful pieces of music ever written, which means no one could ever top him. Secondly, why would Arnold write something like that for Casino Royale or Quantum of Solace? He wrote a beautiful and haunting theme for Vesper, reflecting her deceitful relationship with Bond, whereas in QoS Bond was broken and there was no place for a joyful love theme.

    2. The fact Arnold does not want to score Hollywood blockbusters has nothing to do with his composing abilities. There's no reason to bring it up.
  • Posts: 1,490
    Arnold's score for CR is, IMO, excellent and his best work on Bond. I'd prefer Arnold to return than Newman, but I have to say I find some of Newman's themes in SF and SP to be pretty good. I just think Arnold truly loves Bond and isn't afraid to embrace John Barry and the classic Bond theme, where as I suspect Newman is, or was, determined to create his own Bond sound.
  • SuperintendentSuperintendent A separate pool. For sharks, no less.
    Posts: 871
    CR soundtrack is the best since TLD. Newman's Bond scores do have some decent tracks, but overall I think they lack something.

    I wouldn't mind a new composer, but I'm skeptical whether they'll be able to achieve the Bondian sound. Arnold certainly isn't Barry, but he is a safe bet, IMO.
  • DoctorNoDoctorNo USA-Maryland
    Posts: 755
    CR soundtrack is the best since TLD. Newman's Bond scores do have some decent tracks, but overall I think they lack something.

    I wouldn't mind a new composer, but I'm skeptical whether they'll be able to achieve the Bondian sound. Arnold certainly isn't Barry, but he is a safe bet, IMO.

    +1
  • Posts: 1,490
    CR soundtrack is the best since TLD. Newman's Bond scores do have some decent tracks, but overall I think they lack something.

    I wouldn't mind a new composer, but I'm skeptical whether they'll be able to achieve the Bondian sound. Arnold certainly isn't Barry, but he is a safe bet, IMO.

    There was only one John Barry - unbeatable. Saw him in concert at Royal Albert Hall many years back. An unforgettable evening!!!
  • edited September 2017 Posts: 11,119
    I think David Arnold's best score was "Tomorrow Never Dies", with "The World Is Not Enough" a close second. I mean come on guys. The string sections, the horns, the german flute intermezzo's, it all sounds so much richer. It has more 'sex', so much more 'echo' and soul than Arnold's later scores:


  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,968
    With such divided interests, I say they disregard both Arnold and Newman and go with someone fresh. I'm not averse to new talent; just the opposite. I think it's what the series could use now. I'm not interested in hearing more reused tracks in B25 that weren't memorable or good on the ears the first two times around.
  • Creasy47 wrote: »
    With such divided interests, I say they disregard both Arnold and Newman and go with someone fresh. I'm not averse to new talent; just the opposite. I think it's what the series could use now. I'm not interested in hearing more reused tracks in B25 that weren't memorable or good on the ears the first two times around.

    Seems a logical choice yes. But it depends. I'm one of few who thinks that after a bad score the same artist can improve on that again. I think that of both Arnold and Newman, although the latter is my favourite to do so.

    Did you like the score for "Gold" @Creasy47
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    edited September 2017 Posts: 40,968
    The bits you sent me that I heard, I did enjoy, yes. But it'd be nicer to eventually hear them in context with the movie itself, to see how it translates.

    Either way, can't hurt to let someone new take the reins and see how it goes, especially if Mendes isn't returning.
  • Posts: 19,339
    The Gold soundtrack is excellent throughout ,its very stirring amid all the political corruption that's going on in the film.
  • 007Blofeld007Blofeld In the freedom of the West.
    edited September 2017 Posts: 3,126
    Murdock wrote: »
    What is it with this fixation on David Arnold.
    He's a composer who understands and respects the Bond Sound. The very groundwork John Barry established. He has a great respect for John Barry whom was also his biggest Inspiration. He has a respect to the legacy to Bond music and actually gave a damn about the score. He took the concepts Barry created and updated for the modern age. At least he could compose a memorable Bond score.
  • 007Blofeld007Blofeld In the freedom of the West.
    Posts: 3,126
    007Blofeld wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    What is it with this fixation on David Arnold.
    He's a composer who understands and respects the Bond Sound. The very groundwork John Barry established. He has a great respect for John Barry whom was also his biggest Inspiration. He has a respect to the legacy to Bond music and actually gave a damn about the score. He took the concepts Barry created and updated for the modern age. At least he could compose a memorable Bond score.

    @Murdock to add to this statement John Barry himself highly recommended and brought him forward as his successor to babs and Michael g Wilson
  • Hence I posted those wonderful tracks from David Arnold.....
  • DonnyDB5DonnyDB5 Buffalo, New York
    Posts: 1,755
    Since we're talking about scores & soundtracks, does anyone remember way back when just before Skyfall was released an unused score or snippet of soundtrack was leaked?

    It almost had a Nightfire sound to it as it didn't sound like anything that was used in Skyfall. Can't for the life of me find it anymore, but it was such a good score.
  • Posts: 16,162
    Murdock wrote: »
    What is it with this fixation on David Arnold.
    He's a composer who understands and respects the Bond Sound. The very groundwork John Barry established. He has a great respect for John Barry whom was also his biggest Inspiration. He has a respect to the legacy to Bond music and actually gave a damn about the score. He took the concepts Barry created and updated for the modern age. At least he could compose a memorable Bond score.
    Yesterday I posted this picture about Trekkies. But in a way, this also applies to many Bond fans these days

    Nice stance you're taking against those who disagree with your views. It's not our fault Newman couldn't cut the mustard.

    I couldn't agree more. In addition, like Barry, his motifs and cues are quite catchy. Memorable. I can't count the times I've hummed the "Show Me The Money" boat chase music or DAD's "Welcome to Cuba."
    I'd say it should be a mandatory requirement for Bond to provide a score that's melodically memorable. Countless films today lack that. If one were to ask me to hum the music from the new Wonder Woman movie, I'd be baffled. I don't remember how any of the music in Man of Steel goes for that matter either. Or The Bourne Supremacy.
    I dread the day we get a new Bond film with such a mundane forgettable score.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    edited September 2017 Posts: 16,351
    bondjames wrote: »
    I find it laughable whenever I read comparisons between Arnold and Barry. John Barry is a respected giant amongst film composers. One of the all time greats who shaped romantic and suspense scores for a generation. I suspect many won't even remember David Arnold 10 years from now. Thomas Newman may not be everyone's cup of tea, but he is a highly respected composer in the industry.

    Well Barry gave him his blessing, so that says something. You obviously hate Arnold so it's no surprise you find it laughable. As for Newman, He comes from a long line of musicians who work in the industry. Someone with the name Newman is bound to be recognized. People like to use awards to claim they are better than another. Just because someone wins awards doesn't mean they are great. Barry's Bond scores never got any oscars. It's safe to say there is a bias somewhere.

    I'd rather have a composer who actually understands and respects the Bond sound and is actually excited to use established themes in a new way rather than someone who refuses to use them at all and takes a crap on the legacy of Bond music like Newman has.

    Love him or hate him, but there no denying Arnold did Bond music far better than Newman ever wishes he could. I'd rather have 100 TND type scores over one of Newman's vanilla and water scores any day.
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    Jeffrey wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Taking this back to B25, I'm in a bit of a pickle. Part of me really wants a return to the old school light hearted take, but a part of me understands that it's best for the Craig era to close out in a more gritty, reality oriented manner.

    This is exactly how I feel about it. CR and QOS seem to be in a completely different 'world' (there must be a better way to say this) then SF and even more so with SP. And for Craig I prefer the take from his first two entries.

    Couldn't agree more. CR and QoS felt like real Bond films and both films have this indescribable exciting feeling. Craig is definitely at his best but the last 2...pass.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited September 2017 Posts: 23,883
    Murdock wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I find it laughable whenever I read comparisons between Arnold and Barry. John Barry is a respected giant amongst film composers. One of the all time greats who shaped romantic and suspense scores for a generation. I suspect many won't even remember David Arnold 10 years from now. Thomas Newman may not be everyone's cup of tea, but he is a highly respected composer in the industry.

    Well Barry gave him his blessing, so that says something. You obviously hate Arnold so it's no surprise you find it laughable.
    No, I find it laughable because it just is. You're entitled to like Arnold (just as I'm entitled not to), but to try and justify comparisons between Barry and Arnold is borderline insulting to Barry in my view. There's no comparison on a melodic composition basis (Barry's stand the test of time) and I'm quite certain anyone outside the fanboys on these forums would be more likely to share my opinion.
    Murdock wrote: »
    As for Newman, He comes from a long line of musicians who work in the industry. Someone with the name Newman is bound to be recognized.
    He's recognized because he has created some wonderful scores for several films in several genres. To suggest it's because he's someone's son is a bit much. He's in demand by film makers because he knows what he's doing.
    Murdock wrote: »
    People like to use awards to claim they are better than another. Just because someone wins awards doesn't mean they are great. Barry's Bond scores never got any oscars. It's safe to say there is a bias somewhere.
    I don't recall mentioning awards. Smith won an award, didn't he? That tells us all we need to know about that.
    Murdock wrote: »
    I'd rather have a composer who actually understands and respects the Bond sound and is actually excited to use established themes in a new way rather than someone who refuses to use them at all and takes a crap on the legacy of Bond music like Newman has.
    I'd rather have a composer who doesn't sound like a B-grade ripoff without the class, but to each their own. Some of us like the SF score (as do a reasonable amount of the general public), so again I think it's a bit much to say he took a crap on the legacy of Bond music with that score. I'll give you SP because it was an uninspired rehash for the most part.
    Murdock wrote: »
    Love him or hate him, but there no denying Arnold did Bond music far better than Newman ever wishes he could.
    Really? Well I disagree. To my ears Arnold attempted to do Bond music. Newman brought his own creative take.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    bondjames wrote: »
    No, I find it laughable because it just is. You're entitled to like Arnold (just as I'm entitled not to), but to try and justify comparisons between Barry and Arnold is borderline insulting to Barry in my view. There's no comparison on a melodic composition basis (Barry's stand the test of time) and I'm quite certain anyone outside the fanboys on these forums would be more likely to share my opinion.

    I never once compared them in my post said did I? I just said Barry gave Arnold his blessing. Struck a nerve did I?
    bondjames wrote: »
    He's recognized because he has created some wonderful scores for several films in several genres. To suggest it's because he's someone's son is a bit much. He's in demand by film makers because he knows what he's doing.

    Yeah maybe he has. I haven't sought them out but when it comes to Bond, He failed badly.
    bondjames wrote: »
    I don't recall mentioning awards. Smith won an award, didn't he? That tells us all we need to know about that.

    And I never said you did. Though others have.
    bondjames wrote: »
    I'd rather have a composer who doesn't sound like a B-grade ripoff without the class, but to each their own. Some of us like the SF score (as do a reasonable amount of the general public), so again I think it's a bit much to say he took a crap on the legacy of Bond music with that score. I'll give you SP because it was an uninspired rehash for the most part.

    So just because Arnold's include Brassy elements and the Bond theme that makes him a B-Grade ripoff? You've lost the plot completely. Good. I'm glad you like it. Someone has to.

    bondjames wrote: »
    Really? Well I disagree. To my ears Arnold attempted to do Bond music. Newman brought his own creative take.

    I know. had this same argument many times in the past.

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited September 2017 Posts: 23,883
    Murdock wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    No, I find it laughable because it just is. You're entitled to like Arnold (just as I'm entitled not to), but to try and justify comparisons between Barry and Arnold is borderline insulting to Barry in my view. There's no comparison on a melodic composition basis (Barry's stand the test of time) and I'm quite certain anyone outside the fanboys on these forums would be more likely to share my opinion.

    I never once compared them in my post said did I? I just said Barry gave Arnold his blessing. Struck a nerve did I?
    Not at all. Rather than say that in your previous post, you made this comment:
    Murdock wrote: »
    Well Barry gave him his blessing, so that says something. You obviously hate Arnold so it's no surprise you find it laughable.
    Firstly I don't hate Arnold (I have complimented aspects of his TND, CR and QoS scores. Secondly, you suggested that this is why I find the comparison laughable, which is again not the case. Perhaps it's you who's got a bone to pick? Or perhaps you just misunderstood. I can only hope it's the latter.
    Murdock wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I'd rather have a composer who doesn't sound like a B-grade ripoff without the class, but to each their own. Some of us like the SF score (as do a reasonable amount of the general public), so again I think it's a bit much to say he took a crap on the legacy of Bond music with that score. I'll give you SP because it was an uninspired rehash for the most part.

    So just because Arnold's include Brassy elements and the Bond theme that makes him a B-Grade ripoff? You've lost the plot completely.
    Did I say I find him a B grade ripoff because he includes Brassy elements? No, so again you pass judgement on someone without attempting to understand why they dislike something. Try not to make a habit of it.

    I'd rather not waste time rehashing this with you on here and clogging up Jake's thread. We know you want Arnold back. Most know I don't. Let's leave it at that rather than attempting to pass incorrect assessments on why we like or dislike something.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    bondjames wrote: »
    Not at all. Rather than say that in your previous post,

    Firstly I don't hate Arnold (I have complimented aspects of his TND, CR and QoS scores. Secondly, you suggested that this is why I find the comparison laughable, which is again not the case. Perhaps it's you who's got a bone to pick? Or perhaps you just misunderstood. I can only hope it's the latter.

    I don't have any bone to pick with anyone, Just trying to clear the air, that's all.
    bondjames wrote: »
    Did I say I find him a B grade ripoff because he includes Brassy elements? No, so again you pass judgement on someone without attempting to understand why they dislike something. Try not to make a habit of it.

    No, you are right of course, A bold presumption on my part and I apologize for that.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited September 2017 Posts: 23,883
    Murdock wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Not at all. Rather than say that in your previous post,

    Firstly I don't hate Arnold (I have complimented aspects of his TND, CR and QoS scores. Secondly, you suggested that this is why I find the comparison laughable, which is again not the case. Perhaps it's you who's got a bone to pick? Or perhaps you just misunderstood. I can only hope it's the latter.

    I don't have any bone to pick with anyone, Just trying to clear the air, that's all.
    bondjames wrote: »
    Did I say I find him a B grade ripoff because he includes Brassy elements? No, so again you pass judgement on someone without attempting to understand why they dislike something. Try not to make a habit of it.

    No, you are right of course, A bold presumption on my part and I apologize for that.
    Thanks and I apologize for seeming touchy. You and I are never going to agree on this particular element of it and we are both evidently very passionate about music in Bond films. For me, it's probably one of the most important elements of how I perceive a film. How you feel about SP's score is how I feel about TWINE/DAD's.

    I sincerely hope that we get someone new for B25, so that we can both be happy.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    bondjames wrote: »
    Thanks and I apologize for seeming touchy. You and I are never going to agree on this particular element of it and we are both evidently very passionate about music in Bond films. For me, it's probably one of the most important elements of how I perceive a film. How you feel about SP's score is how I feel about TWINE/DAD's.

    I sincerely hope that we get someone new for B25, so that we can both be happy.

    No worries, I've been having a rather stressful day and I unintentionally flew off the handle so once again sorry about that.

    But yes, We are both very passionate about Bond music and I can certainly agree it's one of the most important elements of a Bond film. Hopefully Bond 25's score will satisfy both our musical needs.
  • I've always thought Michael Giacchino would be interesting. Christopher Lennertz, who composed the music for the FRWL and QOS video games would also be an interesting choice.

    As for Arnold, I thought QOS was his best soundtrack of the bunch, so I wouldn't be upset to hear him return.
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