No Time To Die: Production Diary

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Comments

  • Posts: 11,425
    I will NEVER understand how some people can believe SF is an incoherent mess, but QOS isn't. And don't get me wrong, I like QOS.

    May be you're right. I know the consensus seems to be QoS is incomprehensible, but I always thought the plot was relatively straightforward. I admit these things are largely subjective though and that the accusation of plot incoherence can very legitimately be made against QoS.

    I guess my gut response to both films was very different from the start. I am definitely in the overrated camp when it comes to SF: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/films/2016/08/06/the-10-most-overrated-films-of-all-time/

    And I think this review of QoS is fair and I'm probably in agreement with most of it. https://www.theguardian.com/film/2008/oct/18/jamesbond1 . The review acknowledges the weaknesses but concludes that Craig just carries it, which he does.

    I suppose I feel QoS is underrated (though not massively) and SF overrated (massively).

    For me QoS is short enough that you don't get bogged down in the absurdity. Whereas with SF I found myself utterly underwhelmed and frankly bored on the first watch, constantly wondering why characters were doing what they were doing and acting the way they were. I genuinely don't understand what most of the character's motivations are throughout the film. M seems to be a law unto herself, with almost every action and speech totally inexplicable.
  • edited November 2017 Posts: 1,031
    Getafix wrote: »
    I will NEVER understand how some people can believe SF is an incoherent mess, but QOS isn't. And don't get me wrong, I like QOS.

    May be you're right. I know the consensus seems to be QoS is incomprehensible, but I always thought the plot was relatively straightforward. I admit these things are largely subjective though and that the accusation of plot incoherence can very legitimately be made against QoS.

    I guess my gut response to both films was very different from the start. I am definitely in the overrated camp when it comes to SF: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/films/2016/08/06/the-10-most-overrated-films-of-all-time/

    And I think this review of QoS is fair and I'm probably in agreement with most of it. https://www.theguardian.com/film/2008/oct/18/jamesbond1 . The review acknowledges the weaknesses but concludes that Craig just carries it, which he does.

    I suppose I feel QoS is underrated (though not massively) and SF overrated (massively).

    For me QoS is short enough that you don't get bogged down in the absurdity. Whereas with SF I found myself utterly underwhelmed and frankly bored on the first watch, constantly wondering why characters were doing what they were doing and acting the way they were. I genuinely don't understand what most of the character's motivations are throughout the film. M seems to be a law unto herself, with almost every action and speech totally inexplicable.

    QoS plot: Dominic Greene buys some land in Bolivia. That land contains a natural reservoir of water. Greene intends to monopolise the sale of said water. Jeez, complicated!
  • edited November 2017 Posts: 11,425
    I'm inclined to agree with you. But I appreciate lots of people feel differently about QoS. Certainly the storytelling is not helped in places by some of the editing and jarring action sequences, a couple of which just feel shoe-horned in. If the action had been better worked into the plot the film would be elevated significantly. For me though its a satisfying little palette cleanser compared to the bombast and overblown pretension of SF and SP.
  • Posts: 1,031
    Getafix wrote: »
    I'm inclined to agree with you. But I appreciate lots of people feel differently about QoS. Certainly the storytelling is not helped in places by some of the editing and jarring action sequences, a couple of which just feel shoe-horned in. If the action had been better worked into the plot the film would be elevated significantly. For me though its a satisfying little palette cleanser compared to the bombast and overblown pretension of SF and SP.

    Its main problem is that characterisation is weak. The movie just zips along without allowing us to get invested in any of the characters. It runs much like a video game going from one 'level' to the next. The first reel takes you very quickly from the car chase to Sienna, to London to Haiti etc. without much pause for breath - it's almost like the 2nd half of TND on steroids in that way.
  • edited November 2017 Posts: 11,425
    Funny. I feel the characters are quite well drawn and plausible. They could have done more but I find the characterisation better and more believable than anything in SF or SP.

    I mean the M characterisation in SF is amongst the worst in the entire series. Take any given scene and nothing she says makes the slightest bit of sense. It's flowery and posturing dialogue with no purpose. The absolute opposite of good Bond writing. The same is largely true of Silva as well.
  • Posts: 19,339
    Getafix wrote: »
    Funny. I feel the characters are quite well drawn and plausible. They could have done more but I find the characterisation better and more believable than anything in SF or SP.

    I mean the M characterisation in SF is amongst the worst in the entire series. Take any given scene and nothing she says makes the slightest bit of sense. It's flowery and posturing dialogue with no purpose. The absolute opposite of good Bond writing. The same is largely true of Silva as well.

    I think QOS fleshes out characters quite well,eg Greene,Medrano,Beam...well written characters.

  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,231
    Getafix wrote: »
    I'm inclined to agree with you. But I appreciate lots of people feel differently about QoS. Certainly the storytelling is not helped in places by some of the editing and jarring action sequences, a couple of which just feel shoe-horned in. If the action had been better worked into the plot the film would be elevated significantly. For me though its a satisfying little palette cleanser compared to the bombast and overblown pretension of SF and SP.

    QoS is a very straightforward film that is made harder to watch because of the rapid-fire cutting. The editing is hard work. That being said, I re-watched it the other night and I found myself admiring how stripped back it is.

    I think Felix is well used, Olga is suitably beautiful, and Craig and Dench were probably at their snappiest. It was nice to have Mathis back too, though I think he deserved better than he got.

    That said, the fact that we get five set-pieces in the first 45 minutes doesn't help things very much. It's a front heavy film on the action front and for me, it completely left no room for any serious development on the villain side of things. Greene had as much character as a villain in a 20 minute Saturday morning cartoon. He feels like an afterthought at times and that drags it down for me because Almaric does what he can in his very limited amount of screentime.

    QoS certainly feels fresher than either SF or SP.
  • Posts: 11,425
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    Funny. I feel the characters are quite well drawn and plausible. They could have done more but I find the characterisation better and more believable than anything in SF or SP.

    I mean the M characterisation in SF is amongst the worst in the entire series. Take any given scene and nothing she says makes the slightest bit of sense. It's flowery and posturing dialogue with no purpose. The absolute opposite of good Bond writing. The same is largely true of Silva as well.

    I think QOS fleshes out characters quite well,eg Greene,Medrano,Beam...well written characters.

    I agree.
    Getafix wrote: »
    I'm inclined to agree with you. But I appreciate lots of people feel differently about QoS. Certainly the storytelling is not helped in places by some of the editing and jarring action sequences, a couple of which just feel shoe-horned in. If the action had been better worked into the plot the film would be elevated significantly. For me though its a satisfying little palette cleanser compared to the bombast and overblown pretension of SF and SP.

    QoS is a very straightforward film that is made harder to watch because of the rapid-fire cutting. The editing is hard work. That being said, I re-watched it the other night and I found myself admiring how stripped back it is.

    I think Felix is well used, Olga is suitably beautiful, and Craig and Dench were probably at their snappiest. It was nice to have Mathis back too, though I think he deserved better than he got.

    That said, the fact that we get five set-pieces in the first 45 minutes doesn't help things very much. It's a front heavy film on the action front and for me, it completely left no room for any serious development on the villain side of things. Greene had as much character as a villain in a 20 minute Saturday morning cartoon. He feels like an afterthought at times and that drags it down for me because Almaric does what he can in his very limited amount of screentime.

    QoS certainly feels fresher than either SF or SP.

    Almaric could have been better used, but I enjoy each one of his appearances on screen. Yes it could have all been improved a notch or two but overall I can't find too much to criticise with QoS.

    As you say, it feels a lot fresher than what we've had since.

  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    Back when Solace came out, I found myself harder to accept it as a Bond film, because the plot didn't make sense and how Bond really came around to be involved in a case that doesn't concern his country in the slightest. Why would he have cared about some Banana Republic?

    Years later, however, I found myself enjoying it. It had Bondian moments, but I view it as a spy thriller rather than a James Bond adventure. I like it alright. But, I still admit it is a whole lot of mess, largely thanks the Writer's Strike that disrupted the quality work on the script. And that crappy Bourne type editing and shakycam. My main gripe with post-9/11 action films.
  • edited November 2017 Posts: 11,425
    Back when Solace came out, I found myself harder to accept it as a Bond film, because the plot didn't make sense and how Bond really came around to be involved in a case that doesn't concern his country in the slightest. Why would he have cared about some Banana Republic?

    Years later, however, I found myself enjoying it. It had Bondian moments, but I view it as a spy thriller rather than a James Bond adventure. I like it alright. But, I still admit it is a whole lot of mess, largely thanks the Writer's Strike that disrupted the quality work on the script. And that crappy Bourne type editing and shakycam. My main gripe with post-9/11 action films.

    I interpret this as high praise actually. If you view QoS as a spy thriller then I suggest EON and Forster were doing their job.

    The only shaky cam or editing that I notice in a bad way is the chase from the safe house. That is genuinely confusing. I can't think of another instance in the film though.

    The structure of the film is in many ways very traditional Bond. As with LTK I think people are confused by the slightly different tone and approach. QoS is undoubtedly Bourne influenced, just as LTK was Lethal Weapon and Miami Vice influenced, but underneath they're both actually quite old school Bond films, with a revenge plot twist.

    I wonder if it's pure coincidence that MGW seemed more involved in developing the QoS plot than any film since LTK?
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    Getafix wrote: »
    Back when Solace came out, I found myself harder to accept it as a Bond film, because the plot didn't make sense and how Bond really came around to be involved in a case that doesn't concern his country in the slightest. Why would he have cared about some Banana Republic?

    Years later, however, I found myself enjoying it. It had Bondian moments, but I view it as a spy thriller rather than a James Bond adventure. I like it alright. But, I still admit it is a whole lot of mess, largely thanks the Writer's Strike that disrupted the quality work on the script. And that crappy Bourne type editing and shakycam. My main gripe with post-9/11 action films.

    I interpret this as high praise actually. If you view QoS as a spy thriller then I suggest EON and Forster were doing their job.

    The only shaky cam or editing that I notice in a bad way is the chase from the safe house. That is genuinely confusing. I can't think of another instance in the film though.

    The structure of the film is in many ways very traditional Bond. As with LTK I think people are confused by the slightly different tone and approach. QoS is undoubtedly Bourne influenced, just as LTK was Lethal Weapon and Miami Vice influenced, but underneath they're both actually quite old school Bond films, with a revenge plot twist.
    I'm inclined to agree, @Getafix. That is why I found the premise of Peter Morgan's script for the 23rd film, Forever A Spy, a whole lot of better visualization suited for the Bond we've been introduced to in 2006's Royale than the product we've come to have with the emotional melodrama and superficial quality than initial and spiritual connectivity to the said format. I don't care how un-formulaic it would feel. And I certainly don't give a toss if it's "too dark". If it feels like a genuine spy thriller, then I'm on board. Also, no to homages, as this was the Craig era that was different from what came before. So, for this kind of direction, I wouldn't have minded a Le Carre style Bond thriller.

    Where Solace failed however was its tight continuity criteria that destroyed the film for me, even though I still like the film. It shouldn't have been a direct sequel to its predecessor and the MacGuffin should've included something more threatening than some eco-terrorism. That sort of thing works more for films like The International, and I'd have preferred something a bit more deadly like bio-weapons and modified Sarin gas to be used (not necessarily a Brosnan film type Armageddon finale). If that's what Quantum was financing, then it certainly would've been a more interesting experience for me to watch. But... it is what it is. I find the film quite enjoyable. And more than the Mendes films by light years.
  • Posts: 19,339
    I love the title : Forever a Spy....that's more like a Bond title.
  • Posts: 1,031
    barryt007 wrote: »
    I love the title : Forever a Spy....that's more like a Bond title.

    Would work well for Bond 25, with Bond coming back into MI6.
  • Posts: 19,339
    Dennison wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    I love the title : Forever a Spy....that's more like a Bond title.

    Would work well for Bond 25, with Bond coming back into MI6.

    Exactly,and it has a classy 007 feel to it...
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Dennison wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    I love the title : Forever a Spy....that's more like a Bond title.
    Would work well for Bond 25, with Bond coming back into MI6.
    Exactly,and it has a classy 007 feel to it...
    Cliched title, but still a lot better than things like The Death Collector or the uninspired Spectre.
  • Posts: 1,031
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Dennison wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    I love the title : Forever a Spy....that's more like a Bond title.
    Would work well for Bond 25, with Bond coming back into MI6.
    Exactly,and it has a classy 007 feel to it...
    Cliched title, but still a lot better than things like The Death Collector or the uninspired Spectre.

    Also The Death Collector was a film in the 70s.

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0072855/
  • Posts: 4,619
    Wasn't Morgan's title "Once Upon a Spy"?
  • Posts: 1,031
    Wasn't Morgan's title "Once Upon a Spy"?

    Yes it was.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    Wasn't Morgan's title "Once Upon a Spy"?
    Oh sorry. Yes it was.
  • SirHilaryBraySirHilaryBray Scotland
    edited November 2017 Posts: 2,138
    MGM Says Bond 25 Distribution Plans Unclear; Studio Earnings Surge Following Epix Acquisition

    Privately held Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer has reported a tenfold gain in third-quarter earnings to $114.2 million, compared with $12.1 million in the 2016 quarter.

    MGM Chairman and CEO Gary Barber also revealed during Tuesday’s earnings call that it has not yet selected a distribution partner for the 25th James Bond movie.

    “Distribution plans for Bond 25 still have not been announced and we are continuing discussions with a variety of potential partners,” he said. “We look forward to sharing more details on Bond 25 on future calls.”

  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    edited November 2017 Posts: 15,423
    Hopefully by January 2018?
  • SirHilaryBraySirHilaryBray Scotland
    edited November 2017 Posts: 2,138
    Hopefully by January 2018?

    Incredible change in MGM fortunes, profits up 10X, must be considering putting up most of the cash for Bond 25 to save giving away a larger share to distribution partner like they did with Sony.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    Hopefully by January 2018?
    Incredible change in MGM fortunes, profits up 10X, must be considering putting up most of the cash for Bond 25 to save giving away a larger share to distribution partner like they did with Sony.
    I'd be very glad if they distribute the Bond film solo without the help of an outsider.
  • Getafix wrote: »
    Good point. Shatterhand probably won't be the title but may be they will do a more faithful YOLT inspired adaptation.

    The novel certainly would be depressing enough.
    I will NEVER understand how some people can believe SF is an incoherent mess, but QOS isn't. And don't get me wrong, I like QOS.

    Somehow I gather, that's generally your problem. You just don't understand. This question alone proves it beyond a doubt.
  • edited November 2017 Posts: 1,162
    barryt007 wrote: »
    I love the title : Forever a Spy....that's more like a Bond title.

    I still feel that "once upon a spy" for a anniversary Bond movie was a title as brilliant as it gets. I for myself would have loved it..
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    barryt007 wrote: »
    I love the title : Forever a Spy....that's more like a Bond title.

    I still feel that "once upon a spy" for a anniversary Bond movie was a title as brilliant as it gets. I for myself would have loved it..
    Better make that two.
  • SirHilaryBraySirHilaryBray Scotland
    Posts: 2,138
    barryt007 wrote: »
    I love the title : Forever a Spy....that's more like a Bond title.

    I still feel that "once upon a spy" for a anniversary Bond movie was a title as brilliant as it gets. I for myself would have loved it..
    Better make that two.

    And Death to Spies would have been a better title for Skyfall.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    barryt007 wrote: »
    I love the title : Forever a Spy....that's more like a Bond title.

    I still feel that "once upon a spy" for a anniversary Bond movie was a title as brilliant as it gets. I for myself would have loved it..
    Better make that two.

    And Death to Spies would have been a better title for Skyfall.
    If it had been the Russians. ;)

    ...which they were in Once Upon A Spy.
  • barryt007 wrote: »
    I love the title : Forever a Spy....that's more like a Bond title.

    I still feel that "once upon a spy" for a anniversary Bond movie was a title as brilliant as it gets. I for myself would have loved it..
    Better make that two.

    And Death to Spies would have been a better title for Skyfall.

    Just as "as dumb as it gets - A tale of incompetence"
  • Posts: 4,619
    @noSolaceleft Bond titles that are CLEARLY worse than "Skyfall": DAF, TMWTGG, OP, AVTAK, TLD, TND, DAD, QOS, SP. I believe there are some other Bond titles that are inferior to "Skyfall", but those are the ones that are clearly, without a doubt worse.
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