No Time To Die: Production Diary

1196719681970197219732507

Comments

  • Posts: 4,619
    bondjames wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Despite what's been leaked, I'm pretty certain MI:Fallout influenced that decision to a degree. The timing was just too coincidental, especially now that we learn that remnants from the last film are making their way back (presumably for 'closure').
    I am absolutely certain the success of M:I 5 had nothing to do with what happened with Boyle. M:I 5 was critically about as successful as Skyfall and financially less successful than both Skyfall and Spectre. Yes, Boyle's Bond 25 probably would have made less money than M:I 5 did, becasue it would have been a much smaller movie, but it likely would have been significantly better and more special.
    We'll have to agree to disagree. Bond has been more successful than MI for most of its recent history. That's not the point and I'm not referring to absolutes. My point is more about trajectory. MI: Fallout addressed lingering characters and points from prior films. I don't think that's what Boyle intended. That's what they're doing now, as per Fukunaga.
    M:I 5 was to the previous M:I movies what Spectre was to CR, QOS and SF, only more successful. Bond is one step ahead.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    bondjames wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Despite what's been leaked, I'm pretty certain MI:Fallout influenced that decision to a degree. The timing was just too coincidental, especially now that we learn that remnants from the last film are making their way back (presumably for 'closure').
    I am absolutely certain the success of M:I 5 had nothing to do with what happened with Boyle. M:I 5 was critically about as successful as Skyfall and financially less successful than both Skyfall and Spectre. Yes, Boyle's Bond 25 probably would have made less money than M:I 5 did, becasue it would have been a much smaller movie, but it likely would have been significantly better and more special.
    We'll have to agree to disagree. Bond has been more successful than MI for most of its recent history. That's not the point and I'm not referring to absolutes. My point is more about trajectory. MI: Fallout addressed lingering characters and points from prior films. I don't think that's what Boyle intended. That's what they're doing now, as per Fukunaga.
    M:I 5 was to the previous M:I movies what Spectre was to CR, QOS and SF, only more successful. Bond is one step ahead.
    That's true. I agree.

    I guess we won't know for some time what precipitated Boyle's exit. It doesn't really bother me because we never really knew what he had in mind. They kept it very hush hush apart from some hyperbole, courtesy of Baz.
  • bondjames wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Despite what's been leaked, I'm pretty certain MI:Fallout influenced that decision to a degree. The timing was just too coincidental, especially now that we learn that remnants from the last film are making their way back (presumably for 'closure').
    I am absolutely certain the success of M:I 5 had nothing to do with what happened with Boyle. M:I 5 was critically about as successful as Skyfall and financially less successful than both Skyfall and Spectre. Yes, Boyle's Bond 25 probably would have made less money than M:I 5 did, becasue it would have been a much smaller movie, but it likely would have been significantly better and more special.
    We'll have to agree to disagree. Bond has been more successful than MI for most of its recent history. That's not the point and I'm not referring to absolutes. My point is more about trajectory. MI: Fallout addressed lingering characters and points from prior films. I don't think that's what Boyle intended. That's what they're doing now, as per Fukunaga.
    M:I 5 was to the previous M:I movies what Spectre was to CR, QOS and SF, only more successful. Bond is one step ahead.
    That's true. I agree.

    I guess we won't know for some time what precipitated Boyle's exit. It doesn't really bother me because we never really knew what he had in mind. They kept it very hush hush apart from some hyperbole, courtesy of Baz.

    And Mike Fleming Jr. of Deadline (re: hyperbole)
  • edited January 2019 Posts: 4,619
    Univex wrote: »
    That being said, that "great" Danny Boyle thing you keep repeating compulsively is utter nonsense. And how can you call Nolan and Boyle great? I, for one, do think Nolan earned that title. But the MTV videoclip director that is Boyle isn't in the same league, not even in Mendes league, as the latter is knowledgeable in theatre and the craft as most of us will never be. The best news about Bond 25 so far was that Boyle had left. I was over the moon when I read that. I dislike his films and directorial style. Many, many people do.
    This may sound over the top, but Boyle's departure was traumatic for me and I went through the 5 stages of grief. He has never been one of my favourite directors, but I got incredibly excited at the prospect of him directing a Bond film for three major reasons. First, no director as well known and respected as him has ever directed a Bond film before. Sam Mendes was the biggest so far, but he hasn't made a cultural impact the way Danny Boyle has.

    Second, Boyle directing a Bond movie right now made perfect sense. Spectre was a decent closure for the storyline that started with CR, but Craig was not leaving yet. Boyle doing an off-beat Bond movie without the pressure of having to kickstart a new Bond era would have worked beautifully. Third, Boyle has never done anything like this before. A talented director exploring new territory is always exciting.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,401
    Yes, Fukunaga will not have written the script from scratch, he will be given what was worked on by Puris Wade and Haggis. We already know that Madders is back, so its likely that Bond 25 is a continuation.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    edited January 2019 Posts: 4,343
    bondjames wrote: »
    I think you're conflating a few things here. Box office is not a reflection of how people feel about a film, and this one had the benefit of following one of the most critically praised and commercially successful entries of the past 50 years, which inflated its out of the gate gross. If you check how it performed over multiple weeks in all markets, you will see a rapid tail off in box office, which does not reflect a film which is getting good word of mouth (unlike its predecessor, which actually increased weekly gross in some markets later in its run).

    Nope. I perfectly agree that a boxoffice gross is not a an ideal reflection of a feeling about a film. Look at Batman v Superman, for example. One of the biggest worldwide openings ever which suffered a dramatic drop after the first week-end. But speaking about SP, my point is that you don't become the second highest grossing movie ever in UK (making more money than Avatar) and the fourth in the history of a 53 years old franchise (considering inflation) just because of the Skyfall boost with a movie regarded as one of the worst Bond ever (if not, the worse) like a lot of die hard fans inhere think. That's the point. Spectre had the same Cinemascore of Casino Royale, far better than the one who had QoS, for example. SP had a worse reception than SF - also because the hype was really crazy - but doesn't mean people hated it. You can't imagine how many people told me: "Yeah, SP is okay/good but it's no Skyfall". Dealing with absolutes with SP is just wrong. Few general moviegoers thinks is one of the best, but also few people think is one of the worst, if not the worst.
    First, no director as well known and respected as him has ever directed a Bond film before. Sam Mendes was the biggest so far, but he hasn't made a cultural impact the way Danny Boyle has. Second, Boyle directing a Bond movie right now made perfect sense. Spectre was a decent closure for the storyline that started with CR, but Craig was not leaving yet. Boyle doing an off-beat Bond movie without the pressure of having to kickstart a new Bond era would have worked beautifully. Third, Boyle has never done anything like this before. A talented director exploring new territory is always exciting.

    Good points and those are the main reasons why I was also intrigued with the idea of a Boyle's Bond. But at the same time I felt like he was somehow out of place and I still don't know if I really like his junkie style. The perspective of a Bond made by a director like Boyle without any creative compromise is exciting, but at the same time extremely risky. But I would love to read the script. Any hacker inhere? XD
    Yes, Fukunaga will not have written the script from scratch, he will be given what was worked on by Puris Wade and Haggis. We already know that Madders is back, so its likely that Bond 25 is a continuation.

    In the end SP was about Bond "choosing life" (hello Boyle) so bringing back the woman who pushed him to make this decision makes perfect sense.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,813
    bondjames wrote: »
    Moreover, if one were to survey this site's fanbase or the general public, I'm reasonably sure you won't see this film being ranked 4 out of 24. More likely the opposite.
    I don't think the general public or even most Bond fans set up a strict ranking of 1 to 24. But I'm biased, because I don't do that.

    Most folks evaluate the films on their own. Looking at opinion measures like IMDb User Ratings and RottenTomatoMeter readings, Spectre does perfectly fine alongside very good Bond films from the past. It's a generally well-liked Bond film that did very well at the box office.

    There's no requirement to like any particular Bond film. But some of the hyperbole directed at Spectre recalls On Her Majesty's Secret Service and more recently Quantum of Solace after their release and the failures myths pursued.

  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    Posts: 4,343
    Most folks evaluate the films on their own. Looking at opinion measures like IMDb User Ratings and RottenTomatoMeter readings, Spectre does perfectly fine alongside very good Bond films from the past. It's a generally well-liked Bond film that did very well at the box office.

    +1.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited January 2019 Posts: 23,883
    matt_u wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I think you're conflating a few things here. Box office is not a reflection of how people feel about a film, and this one had the benefit of following one of the most critically praised and commercially successful entries of the past 50 years, which inflated its out of the gate gross. If you check how it performed over multiple weeks in all markets, you will see a rapid tail off in box office, which does not reflect a film which is getting good word of mouth (unlike its predecessor, which actually increased weekly gross in some markets later in its run).

    Nope. I perfectly agree that a boxoffice gross is not a an ideal reflection of a feeling about a film. Look at Batman v Superman, for example. One of the biggest worldwide openings ever which suffered a dramatic drop after the first week-end. But speaking about SP, my point is that you don't become the second highest grossing movie ever in UK (making more money than Avatar) and the fourth in the history of a 53 years old franchise (considering inflation) just because of the Skyfall boost with a movie regarded as one of the worst Bond ever (if not, the worse) like a lot of die hard fans inhere think. That's the point. Spectre had the same Cinemascore of Casino Royale, far better than the one who had QoS, for example. SP had a worse reception than SF - also because the hype was really crazy - but doesn't mean people hated it. You can't imagine how many people told me: "Yeah, SP is okay/good but it's no Skyfall". Dealing with absolutes with SP is just wrong. Few general moviegoers thinks os one of the best, but also few people think is one of the worst, if not the worst.
    My point is that box office doesn't reflect critical reception. There were many on this very forum who thought highly of the film upon release, but who have changed their opinions since. I'd guess the same exists in the general public too. One has to give these things time, and perhaps more time since the general public doesn't revisit these films as often, nor do they stew on it like we do here. Over time things tend to align. We're perhaps ahead of the curve somewhat.
  • edited January 2019 Posts: 12,474
    There’s really not much evidence to back it up, but I do have a feeling Boyle’s Bond 25 would have been more standalone than what we will end up with. I certainly would love to know what it was - perhaps one day? Maybe some of their ideas will be kept and they will get some story credits.

    Most of us agree we’d prefer a standalone approach for our Bond films, but I don’t think this should ever be a make or break deal. Continuity itself doesn’t have to be bad. I think we all just have a bit of a sour taste from the way it was handled in SP, and many assume it will be as bad or worse in Bond 25 in that regard. In any case, I just hope they deliver a really strong movie, and people don’t get too hung up if it’s not 100% standalone.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited January 2019 Posts: 23,883
    The fundamental issue I have with the acknowledgement of time and continuity, in the interests of giving a visiting actor an 'arc', is that it increases the risk of issues and problems with the next iteration. That is what has plagued several other series, and this is why, in my opinion, they haven't had the staying power or ability to smoothly transition like Bond has done in the past. The model was quite unique, and very successful.

    That's not to say that Bond won't survive or succeed after this iteration - just that continuing this self contained continuity driven era for this extended period of time increases the risks.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    edited January 2019 Posts: 4,343
    I'm happy with this Craig era loose continuity. Even if is a really little moment, I really liked a nod to M's lesson about trust at the end of CR in SP, where Bond replies to Lucia: "With him gone I can trust nobody" - "I know the feeling well".

    Having Madeleine back in 25 makes perfect sense from an emotional arc standpoint, but I don't feel the need to see the Spectre organization once again, for example.
  • This may sound over the top, but Boyle's departure was traumatic for me and I went through the 5 stages of grief.

    Yes, this does sound very over the top. I mean I love Bond as much as the next fan, but good lord. . .
  • edited January 2019 Posts: 4,617
    bondjames wrote: »
    The fundamental issue I have with the acknowledgement of time and continuity, in the interests of giving a visiting actor an 'arc', is that it increases the risk of issues and problems with the next iteration. That is what has plagued several other series, and this is why, in my opinion, they haven't had the staying power or ability to smoothly transition like Bond has done in the past. The model was quite unique, and very successful.

    That's not to say that Bond won't survive or succeed after this iteration - just that continuing this self contained continuity driven era for this extended period of time increases the risks.

    Spot on and it's almost as if the producers are not aware of these risks. They want the advantages that an arc and timeline offer but have failed to have a long term, cohesive plan that this requires. The result is exactly what we have now.
  • edited January 2019 Posts: 6,709
    Nah, they know and are willing to take the risk because they know Bond is an household name, and culture icon, much like Batman or etc... And after Craig they'll go about it as usual. This will probably be known as the Craig era, with its continuity. It won't contaminate anything in the long run. Anyone who has read Some kind of Hero knows they think like that. And...they're right.
  • Paul Haggis is returning to co-write with Purvis & Wade!

    That's great news.

    The series has not been the same since he left and I'm so proud of the production realizing the value of what they started at the beginning of Craig's Bond.

    Hopefully David Arnold's possible return would signal an actual film score as opposed to the minimalist ding-ding tunes of recent films in modern cinema.

    A longer movie run-time will help make up for the fact that we've had to wait a few more years in between and it will help with the quality of the film for character development, in this generation of binge-watching tv viewers.

    Yeah, Paul Haggis!
  • Posts: 1,680
    I'd say the film will come in at 2 hrs 25 min
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Univex wrote: »
    Nah, they know and are willing to take the risk because they know Bond is an household name, and culture icon, much like Batman or etc... And after Craig they'll go about it as usual. This will probably be known as the Craig era, with its continuity. It won't contaminate anything in the long run. Anyone who has read Some kind of Hero knows they think like that. And...they're right.
    Bond, the name, is certainly a cultural icon that will survive yes. However, what kind of Bond? That's the question.

    In the past the delineations weren't so clearly defined and contained, and consequently they could seamlessly weave into another era or even change course within an existing one. It's a question of what is permissable and acceptable to a viewer within the confines of the reality they create. When one strictly defines continuity parameters, then the viewer's expectations get more rigidly set. This makes it more difficult to deviate. Much of the criticism of SP (including from me) is on account of their attempt to change the Craig persona slightly towards the 'Bond we all know and love' with the tropes. I'd argue that this didn't work for many partly because of the strict continuity - I expected him to act & behave a certain way on account of his history and he didn't. Such was not the case with Rog, Sean or the others because I approached each film as a standalone in my mind.

    Some of us are old enough to remember the pre-Craig era, but there are many viewers who have grown up only with Craig and his continuity. Going back to the type of Bond we had previously will be increasingly difficult imho as a result of what they've done here because those new viewers have expectations based on the contained Craig era, not the Sean, Rog, Tim or Brozz ones. The only other time they did this was with OHMSS (which was similarly self contained), but that was one film & not a 5 film14+ year run.

    Batman is a perfect example of what I'm talking about actually. They've had successful eras and poor ones, and have had to 'stop-start' with delays and new approaches in between due to each era being strictly defined. Some viewers like one era, and other like another, but they are all self contained. Such was not the case with Bond prior to Craig, and that permitted more flexibility and regularity on a changeover.

    Again, I'm not saying there's a catastrophe on the horizon, but the risks are clearly higher with this approach due to changes in viewer expectations with time, as they were when Nolan handed over the Bat reigns to Snyder.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,813
    If continuity didn't matter before the Craig films, it likely won't matter after them.

    Or during, even. The audience shows up for the latest mission, as always.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    If continuity didn't matter before the Craig films, it likely won't matter after them.

    Or during, even. The audience shows up for the latest mission, as always.

    And here should end this conversation, lol. The audience will always show up for the latest mission. That’s all that needs to be said, rather than presupposing that what’s happening now could have a negative impact on the series moving ahead.

    In a few more years there will be another actor in the tux. And the audiences will come in droves.

    Full stop.
  • edited January 2019 Posts: 6,709
    Tell you what, they just need to conjure a brilliant first film for a new actor and that's it, it all starts again with even more stamina. A strong one off, single mission, single baddie story with no continuation in sight. And then, number 2 of said era will be another single story. And that's it, they'll have their golden goose shooting golden eggs in no time.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Univex wrote: »
    Tell you what, they just need to conjure a brilliant first film for a new actor and that's it, it all starts again with even more stamina. A strong one off, single mission, single baddie story with no continuation in sight. And then, number 2 of said era will be another single story. And that's it, they'll have their golden goose shooting golden eggs in no time.
    That would definitely be great and my preferred outcome. Both films have to knock it out of the park, and I hope they continue the tradition of the one-two punch coming in quick succession after one another to establish the new approach and man.
  • edited January 2019 Posts: 4,619
    opposed to the minimalist ding-ding tunes of recent films in modern cinema.
    Food for thought: a large group of professional musicians thought that the score of Skyfall was one of the 5 best scores of 2012.
  • Posts: 9,848
    opposed to the minimalist ding-ding tunes of recent films in modern cinema.
    Food for thought: a large group of professional musicians thought that the score of Skyfall was one of the 5 best scores of 2012.

    And? What does that have to do with me..,

    It’s like this

    Me “man I love pizza”
    You “I hate pizza and so do 5 top chefs
    (What you expect me to say
    “Oh man I hate pizza now”

    It doesn’t work like that I don’t care if you get quotes from my favorite band yes saying how they hate David Arnold and it still won’t change my opinion
  • Posts: 1,680
    The film has even more pressure after Boyle quit. If it's mediocre you'll never hear the end of "we could have had a critically acclaimed classic with Boyle"
  • Posts: 7,507
    Risico007 wrote: »
    opposed to the minimalist ding-ding tunes of recent films in modern cinema.
    Food for thought: a large group of professional musicians thought that the score of Skyfall was one of the 5 best scores of 2012.

    And? What does that have to do with me..,

    It’s like this

    Me “man I love pizza”
    You “I hate pizza and so do 5 top chefs
    (What you expect me to say
    “Oh man I hate pizza now”

    It doesn’t work like that I don’t care if you get quotes from my favorite band yes saying how they hate David Arnold and it still won’t change my opinion


    No one demands that you change your opinion. But showing some modesty and respect for people who know more than you regarding certain topics is adviceable...
  • BMW_with_missilesBMW_with_missiles All the usual refinements.
    Posts: 3,000
    jobo wrote: »
    Risico007 wrote: »
    opposed to the minimalist ding-ding tunes of recent films in modern cinema.
    Food for thought: a large group of professional musicians thought that the score of Skyfall was one of the 5 best scores of 2012.

    And? What does that have to do with me..,

    It’s like this

    Me “man I love pizza”
    You “I hate pizza and so do 5 top chefs
    (What you expect me to say
    “Oh man I hate pizza now”

    It doesn’t work like that I don’t care if you get quotes from my favorite band yes saying how they hate David Arnold and it still won’t change my opinion


    No one demands that you change your opinion. But showing some modesty and respect for people who know more than you regarding certain topics is adviceable...

    But all art and media is subjective and down to personal opinion. Professional musicians liking a score doesn’t make it sound better to me, or even make it objectively good. They like it. That’s their opinion. Good for them, but I don’t care.
  • Posts: 17,759
    Tuck91 wrote: »
    The film has even more pressure after Boyle quit. If it's mediocre you'll never hear the end of "we could have had a critically acclaimed classic with Boyle"

    That's the risk they're facing with Fukunaga of course; some of us will no doubt wonder what could have been with Boyle, should Bond 25 not be as good as we hope it will be. Then again, if it's a great one, nobody will think twice about it. I do hope we'll someday know more about the would-be Boyle film, as it really interest me what his idea was – especially since EON found it worth developing in the first place.
  • edited January 2019 Posts: 832
    I don’t have an issue with some amount of continuity in bond every now and then if it is done well. The issue with bond 25 relying significantly on spectre is that spectre is a bad film. There is nothing in it that I have any interest in exploring further. Any plot point that relies on spectre, even if it is in itself good, brings the shadow of the bad plot point from spectre with it. There are obviously some great aspects to it, but the film as a whole is bad, one that I don’t want to be reminded of when I watch bond 25. Also I hated fallout. Hopefully any connection to spectre is minor. Would be difficult to be excited for a sequel to a film that I and many others consider to be a failure.
  • edited January 2019 Posts: 7,507
    jobo wrote: »
    Risico007 wrote: »
    opposed to the minimalist ding-ding tunes of recent films in modern cinema.
    Food for thought: a large group of professional musicians thought that the score of Skyfall was one of the 5 best scores of 2012.

    And? What does that have to do with me..,

    It’s like this

    Me “man I love pizza”
    You “I hate pizza and so do 5 top chefs
    (What you expect me to say
    “Oh man I hate pizza now”

    It doesn’t work like that I don’t care if you get quotes from my favorite band yes saying how they hate David Arnold and it still won’t change my opinion


    No one demands that you change your opinion. But showing some modesty and respect for people who know more than you regarding certain topics is adviceable...

    But all art and media is subjective and down to personal opinion. Professional musicians liking a score doesn’t make it sound better to me, or even make it objectively good. They like it. That’s their opinion. Good for them, but I don’t care.


    But all art requires knowledge to fully comprehend. I for one have no idea why Citizen Kane is considered one of the best films ever made. There are two ways to treat that: I could say "screw all you movie critics, I know it's bad, I don't care!" Or I could acknowledge that there might be facets to it witch I haven't yet come to understand, and actively search for them with an open mind when I rewatch it. (Just to give one example...) I find this frame of mind more rewarding. It has made me come to appreciate items of art I didn't previously comprehend. A certain humility is good.

    Edit:

    Bottom line: I happen to be a musician myself, and I do like the Skyfall score. Well, at least parts of it... Not that it gives me any special athourity on the matter, not at all! But neither does slamming it to a tedius degree either...
Sign In or Register to comment.