No Time To Die: Production Diary

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Comments

  • ResurrectionResurrection Kolkata, India
    edited January 2019 Posts: 2,541
    If they aren't planning to make this film look like a finale and Bond25 turned out to be successful, I see no reason why DC can't return for 6th and 7th film he is a damn good actor He is doing this film to see if his magic still works, if it does he will surely want to return for more.
  • Posts: 1,165
    Worth noting that MI8 has secured a 2022 release. Would Bond 26 go up against it for the 60th anniversary?
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,452
    TR007 wrote: »
    Worth noting that MI8 has secured a 2022 release. Would Bond 26 go up against it for the 60th anniversary?

    True, I believe B26 will be held back until Summer 2023. Going head to head with MI would be very risky, as they have all the momentum and buzz currently.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    If they aim for a November 2022 release, I don't see why it wouldn't work.
  • JamesBondKenyaJamesBondKenya Danny Boyle laughs to himself
    Posts: 2,730
    0 chance they get out a film by 2022 the more I think about it. It took them over 4 years for Bond 25, really for no reason apart from rest
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,452
    0 chance they get out a film by 2022 the more I think about it. It took them over 4 years for Bond 25, really for no reason apart from rest

    Yes, but Craig won't be in the picture this time, which will simplify things a great deal.
  • Posts: 154
    0 chance they get out a film by 2022 the more I think about it. It took them over 4 years for Bond 25, really for no reason apart from rest

    Yes, but Craig won't be in the picture this time, which will simplify things a great deal.

    Or make it more difficult, as they'll have to cast the next Bond as well
  • ResurrectionResurrection Kolkata, India
    edited January 2019 Posts: 2,541
    TR007 wrote: »
    Worth noting that MI8 has secured a 2022 release. Would Bond 26 go up against it for the 60th anniversary?

    SF go up against with very successful TDKR in 2012 with 50th anniversary after a film like QOS and the rest is history(earned more than TDKR) . MI isn't groundbreaking like TDK trilogy so I would say there isn't any risk but a lot depends on Bond25 and how it turned out and will Craig continue after that.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    edited January 2019 Posts: 8,452
    Matt wrote: »
    0 chance they get out a film by 2022 the more I think about it. It took them over 4 years for Bond 25, really for no reason apart from rest

    Yes, but Craig won't be in the picture this time, which will simplify things a great deal.

    Or make it more difficult, as they'll have to cast the next Bond as well

    They probably already have a good idea who it is, they have been putting out feelers for the past few years now.

    Don't forget there was a period where we didn't know whether Craig would be back.
  • Posts: 15,229
    Happy to see Barbara getting an award.

    Also I am musing on what social media would have done with Sean's leaving, not leaving, the series ... it would have been so wild and crazy. Because you know, Connery WAS Bond and only him ... and OMG he is not over the hill; he leaves and this series DIES ... then Laz came and split the Bond world .. and then Sean returned in DAF ... and OMG he is over the hill ... no he's NOT! ... etc. etc. Just amusing to ponder. Putting the current Craig (last film or what?!!!!) chat into a time machine for Connery.

    @4EverBonded it would be an interesting thread: debate a Bond movie as if it had been released yesterday and social media existed.
  • edited January 2019 Posts: 257
    M:I-7 comes out 2021, M:I-8 2022 after Fallout 2018, EON please look at this, stop the 4-5 year gaps between movies
  • Bernie99 wrote: »
    M:I-7 comes out 2021, M:I-8 2022, EON please look at this, stop this 4-5 year gaps between movies

    This is an immensely surprising move – especially considering that McQuarrie seemed jaded of the series in interviews this year. I guess a little time, perspective and money can make heaps of difference.

    McQuarrie did a fantastic job with Rogue Nation – that film is a criminally good time. I like Fallout, but was perhaps not as hot on it as everyone else. I’ll probably need to rewatch it.

    Honestly, I hope this means the next to M:I films are more story-focussed. You could take the action from Fallout and spread it across two films whilst adding more dialogue and character stuff in between.

    What’s most ironic is that Eon already considered this approach:
    http://collider.com/daniel-craig-denies-james-bond-two-part-sequel/

    It was widely considered that when John Logan pitched Spectre – he had envisaged a two-part film that would both be shot concurrently. However, Sam Mendes decided against it. Saying he wanted to make a one-off film that followed the story from SF and had a conclusion that could e picked up. I heard Mendes talking about it in an interview with Empire.

    Personally, I really love the idea. It’s something they should consider with Bond 26 and 27.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    FoxRox wrote: »
    The ONLY reason Craig is doing BOND 25 is because people didn’t really like Spectre and he would like to end his tenure on a high. If he knocks out another CR/SF, he will definitely not do B26. If it’s another QOS/SP, then he will likely be fatigued by failure and still not make B26. Either way I don’t see him in the role

    I feel this way too. Also the long gaps don’t help at all. There’s been some twists and turns along the way, but I feel pretty sure B25 will be Craig’s last. The one way I could see it happening (Craig returning again) is if there was a surprise two-parter with B26 immediately following B25, but I doubt it.

    If Bond is truly following Mission Impossible, don't be surprised now....

    https://deadline.com/2019/01/new-mission-impossible-christopher-mcquarrie-tom-cruise-next-two-movies-1202535184/
    This is Babs and Craig we're talking about here. Not Cruise. It won't be happening.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    This has more to do with Cruise and striking while the iron is hot, it's not like he gets BO hits from any other films any more.

    They quite rightly want to capitalize on the success of Mi 6 so the back to back idea makes sense but also Cruise isn't getting any younger and despite his Peter Pan like ability he won't be playing the role for much longer after this.

    MI will disappear unless they find another actor that will take on the franchise (very unlikely) the way Cruise can.

    Bond will continue, it has bumps in the road and people fall out of favour with it but it comes back.

    There is a contingent out there that is fans of this and Bond but they keep getting the 2 mixed up, one is nothing like the other, yes they are spy adventures and that is it.

    One was TV show that became a movie franchise, has had now 6 films and seems in a very green period but it can't last forever. The other is a 50+ year film series quite like no other in the history of film that is having a bumpy patch.

    Though the hyperbole seems to be the loudest and due to Cruise's franchise being put in the same breath as the Raid films by some, Bond is all of a sudden doomed and if it doesn't catch up it will be obsolete.

    The biggest mistake would be to react to this and try to compete. Bond will be fine whereas although MI looks to be going great guns at this present time. It will be consigned to film history once the Scientologist is too old to pursue is literally psychotic passion to almost kill himself in order to top the last death defying stunt.

  • Posts: 1,165
    Bernie99 wrote: »
    M:I-7 comes out 2021, M:I-8 2022, EON please look at this, stop this 4-5 year gaps between movies

    This is an immensely surprising move – especially considering that McQuarrie seemed jaded of the series in interviews this year. I guess a little time, perspective and money can make heaps of difference.

    McQuarrie did a fantastic job with Rogue Nation – that film is a criminally good time. I like Fallout, but was perhaps not as hot on it as everyone else. I’ll probably need to rewatch it.

    Honestly, I hope this means the next to M:I films are more story-focussed. You could take the action from Fallout and spread it across two films whilst adding more dialogue and character stuff in between.

    What’s most ironic is that Eon already considered this approach:
    http://collider.com/daniel-craig-denies-james-bond-two-part-sequel/

    It was widely considered that when John Logan pitched Spectre – he had envisaged a two-part film that would both be shot concurrently. However, Sam Mendes decided against it. Saying he wanted to make a one-off film that followed the story from SF and had a conclusion that could e picked up. I heard Mendes talking about it in an interview with Empire.

    Personally, I really love the idea. It’s something they should consider with Bond 26 and 27.

    Craig shot down the idea of doing two back to back. Mendes really wouldn’t have that kind of clout to nix that sort of proposal.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    Posts: 4,343
    bondjames wrote: »
    I get your point @matt_u and hopefully you'll forgive the sarcasm. I realize all those elements are sprinkled throughout the film (not too subtly for my tastes I might add). More than anything, those points carry back to CR and Vesper, and that's why for me it all suggested a perfect bookend to the Craig era.

    However, that doesn't mean that the ending couldn't be interpreted differently. As @patb noted, it could just be a holiday (in fact, Bond alludes to the fact that he is due for one in the opening post-Titles scene in M's office).

    We had a thread (or several) here at the time of SP's release debating this very matter. Why would we do that if it was such an open and shut case?

    After the fact and with the benefit of hindsight we can now say that there is a reason for Madeleine to be back, but was anyone clamouring for that when Boyle was in charge? Not to my knowledge. Many members were saying how great it was that we were supposedly getting a fresh 'standalone' at that time. So hindsight is 20/20.

    Keep in mind also that Fukunaga has alluded to a journey from CR, and not an SP continuation. He didn't even mention SP once. So frankly we don't know how they will deal with the Madeleine matter at the moment, or the events of that prior film. It remains to be seen if Craig Bond left the force only to come back, or if all of that will even be acknowledged.

    My earlier point is that the end of SP allowed for different ways of looking at things. Some could have said holiday, others that he left for good and yet others that it was the end of this interpretation, with a new one to just follow on after years have passed (with a new man as Blofeld). Did anyone wonder where Stacey and the soap were when Tim was introduced? No. We just moved on, even with Gogol, M (played by Brown) and Q (played by Llewelyn) in tow. That's one of the reasons these films have been so successful continuously imho - because they don't directly acknowledge time and events too much - it's there but it's vague.

    Nothing to forgive and sorry for the late response.

    Forgive me if I insist, but I really can't see any other interpretation of the SP finale than Bond choosing to seriously quit with his life as an assassin. I'm speaking just about SP storyline from a character arc standpoint without taking in consideration future development, which could be endless. But at the end of SP Bond is clearly convinced to STOP, not just goin away for a couple of weeks. It's not even the first time, he already did in CR in a way but then happened the Vesper betrayal. The thing that makes his choice so important and true it's not only linked to the strong symbolism on the bridge scene, but especially with the character of Madeleine. He's dealing with a woman who ran away from her father "and his sick life" and even left Bond once she understood that he would never stop (the Hildebran Print and Rarities scene). She even told him:

    "James I can't. I can't go back to this life and I'm not going to ask you to change. This is who you are".

    This is extremely important, because Bond choosing Madeleine over the Scooby Gang means he's embracing a change in his life. Because this is what SP is all about at the end. I can agree that everything feels rushed, given the size of this choice, but this is it. Of course it doesn't mean that he will never go back to work as a spy. In life things change, people die, but the emotional impact of this choice in SP is very true and strong.

    Having said that, I perfectly agree that such a finale is clearly open ended, because left the filmmakers with endless further possibilities. We're not talking about a Logan type finale, this is pretty obvious. I'm super curious about the further development of Madeleine, because is the first time in the history of the franchise where a main Bond girl comes back again in a direct sequel.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    edited January 2019 Posts: 8,452
    v
    Shardlake wrote: »
    This has more to do with Cruise and striking while the iron is hot, it's not like he gets BO hits from any other films any more.

    They quite rightly want to capitalize on the success of Mi 6 so the back to back idea makes sense but also Cruise isn't getting any younger and despite his Peter Pan like ability he won't be playing the role for much longer after this.

    MI will disappear unless they find another actor that will take on the franchise (very unlikely) the way Cruise can.

    Bond will continue, it has bumps in the road and people fall out of favour with it but it comes back.

    There is a contingent out there that is fans of this and Bond but they keep getting the 2 mixed up, one is nothing like the other, yes they are spy adventures and that is it.

    One was TV show that became a movie franchise, has had now 6 films and seems in a very green period but it can't last forever. The other is a 50+ year film series quite like no other in the history of film that is having a bumpy patch.

    Though the hyperbole seems to be the loudest and due to Cruise's franchise being put in the same breath as the Raid films by some, Bond is all of a sudden doomed and if it doesn't catch up it will be obsolete.

    The biggest mistake would be to react to this and try to compete. Bond will be fine whereas although MI looks to be going great guns at this present time. It will be consigned to film history once the Scientologist is too old to pursue is literally psychotic passion to almost kill himself in order to top the last death defying stunt.

    I don't think anyone is saying Bond is doomed. The real danger though is acting like there isn't a problem, or that it will sort itself out. If they had just plowed on ahead with The Spy Who Loved Me, Goldeneye or Casino Royale then we would be in a much worse position today. The brand is not enough to insure continued success, every now and then you have to be able to self-reflect, identify issues and make adjustments. The truth is the franchuse is in dire need of a freshen up. Infact less of a freshen up, more of a hosing down. It feels like on some fundemental level we're still stuck in the mid 2000's, as that was the era in which gritty reboots and origin stories with more of a character study approach were at their height. Nowadays we've moved past that and Bond needs to quickly make up the ground. But I still can't shake the thought that we're in for another one like the other four and is that really still going to appeal like it has in the past?
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    matt_u wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I get your point @matt_u and hopefully you'll forgive the sarcasm. I realize all those elements are sprinkled throughout the film (not too subtly for my tastes I might add). More than anything, those points carry back to CR and Vesper, and that's why for me it all suggested a perfect bookend to the Craig era.

    However, that doesn't mean that the ending couldn't be interpreted differently. As @patb noted, it could just be a holiday (in fact, Bond alludes to the fact that he is due for one in the opening post-Titles scene in M's office).

    We had a thread (or several) here at the time of SP's release debating this very matter. Why would we do that if it was such an open and shut case?

    After the fact and with the benefit of hindsight we can now say that there is a reason for Madeleine to be back, but was anyone clamouring for that when Boyle was in charge? Not to my knowledge. Many members were saying how great it was that we were supposedly getting a fresh 'standalone' at that time. So hindsight is 20/20.

    Keep in mind also that Fukunaga has alluded to a journey from CR, and not an SP continuation. He didn't even mention SP once. So frankly we don't know how they will deal with the Madeleine matter at the moment, or the events of that prior film. It remains to be seen if Craig Bond left the force only to come back, or if all of that will even be acknowledged.

    My earlier point is that the end of SP allowed for different ways of looking at things. Some could have said holiday, others that he left for good and yet others that it was the end of this interpretation, with a new one to just follow on after years have passed (with a new man as Blofeld). Did anyone wonder where Stacey and the soap were when Tim was introduced? No. We just moved on, even with Gogol, M (played by Brown) and Q (played by Llewelyn) in tow. That's one of the reasons these films have been so successful continuously imho - because they don't directly acknowledge time and events too much - it's there but it's vague.

    Nothing to forgive and sorry for the late response.

    Forgive me if I insist, but I really can't see any other interpretation of the SP finale than Bond choosing to seriously quit with his life as an assassin. I'm speaking just about SP storyline from a character arc standpoint without taking in consideration future development, which could be endless. But at the end of SP Bond is clearly convinced to STOP, not just goin away for a couple of weeks. It's not even the first time, he already did in CR in a way but then happened the Vesper betrayal. The thing that makes his choice so important and true it's not only linked to the strong symbolism on the bridge scene, but especially with the character of Madeleine. He's dealing with a woman who ran away from her father "and his sick life" and even left Bond once she understood that he would never stop (the Hildebran Print and Rarities scene). She even told him:

    "James I can't. I can't go back to this life and I'm not going to ask you to change. This is who you are".

    This is extremely important, because Bond choosing Madeleine over the Scooby Gang means he's embracing a change in his life. Because this is what SP is all about at the end. I can agree that everything feels rushed, given the size of this choice, but this is it. Of course it doesn't mean that he will never go back to work as a spy. In life things change, people die, but the emotional impact of this choice in SP is very true and strong.

    Having said that, I perfectly agree that such a finale is clearly open ended, because left the filmmakers with endless further possibilities. We're not talking about a Logan type finale, this is pretty obvious. I'm super curious about the further development of Madeleine, because is the first time in the history of the franchise where a main Bond girl comes back again in a direct sequel.
    I think perhaps we're writing at cross purposes here. I agree with you that the ending of SP can certainly be interpreted the way you suggest. In fact, I think that's the most obvious interpretation, given the heavy handedness of some of the imagery (hanging photos anyone?). This is why I'm personally done with the Craig Bond. It has nothing to do with disliking the actor (I went to see him on Broadway and am looking forward to Knives Out). Rather it has to do with his arc, which has been very obviously thrown in our faces. One would have to be somewhat blind not to notice what they were dishing in SP.

    My point is more that the ending, while providing some closure to his story, was still open ended (I perhaps shouldn't have written vague earlier). It therefore allowed for a seamless segueway into a new Bond actor, as I explained earlier. That's how I would like them to leave B25 as well. That was my initial point. I don't want explicit closure to this Bond's story as a self contained entity. Rather, I'd prefer something as open ended as SP was. I doubt that's what we'll get, but it's what I'd prefer. I am not a fan of creating self contained narratives within the Bond universe.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    Posts: 4,343
    bondjames wrote: »
    matt_u wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I get your point @matt_u and hopefully you'll forgive the sarcasm. I realize all those elements are sprinkled throughout the film (not too subtly for my tastes I might add). More than anything, those points carry back to CR and Vesper, and that's why for me it all suggested a perfect bookend to the Craig era.

    However, that doesn't mean that the ending couldn't be interpreted differently. As @patb noted, it could just be a holiday (in fact, Bond alludes to the fact that he is due for one in the opening post-Titles scene in M's office).

    We had a thread (or several) here at the time of SP's release debating this very matter. Why would we do that if it was such an open and shut case?

    After the fact and with the benefit of hindsight we can now say that there is a reason for Madeleine to be back, but was anyone clamouring for that when Boyle was in charge? Not to my knowledge. Many members were saying how great it was that we were supposedly getting a fresh 'standalone' at that time. So hindsight is 20/20.

    Keep in mind also that Fukunaga has alluded to a journey from CR, and not an SP continuation. He didn't even mention SP once. So frankly we don't know how they will deal with the Madeleine matter at the moment, or the events of that prior film. It remains to be seen if Craig Bond left the force only to come back, or if all of that will even be acknowledged.

    My earlier point is that the end of SP allowed for different ways of looking at things. Some could have said holiday, others that he left for good and yet others that it was the end of this interpretation, with a new one to just follow on after years have passed (with a new man as Blofeld). Did anyone wonder where Stacey and the soap were when Tim was introduced? No. We just moved on, even with Gogol, M (played by Brown) and Q (played by Llewelyn) in tow. That's one of the reasons these films have been so successful continuously imho - because they don't directly acknowledge time and events too much - it's there but it's vague.

    Nothing to forgive and sorry for the late response.

    Forgive me if I insist, but I really can't see any other interpretation of the SP finale than Bond choosing to seriously quit with his life as an assassin. I'm speaking just about SP storyline from a character arc standpoint without taking in consideration future development, which could be endless. But at the end of SP Bond is clearly convinced to STOP, not just goin away for a couple of weeks. It's not even the first time, he already did in CR in a way but then happened the Vesper betrayal. The thing that makes his choice so important and true it's not only linked to the strong symbolism on the bridge scene, but especially with the character of Madeleine. He's dealing with a woman who ran away from her father "and his sick life" and even left Bond once she understood that he would never stop (the Hildebran Print and Rarities scene). She even told him:

    "James I can't. I can't go back to this life and I'm not going to ask you to change. This is who you are".

    This is extremely important, because Bond choosing Madeleine over the Scooby Gang means he's embracing a change in his life. Because this is what SP is all about at the end. I can agree that everything feels rushed, given the size of this choice, but this is it. Of course it doesn't mean that he will never go back to work as a spy. In life things change, people die, but the emotional impact of this choice in SP is very true and strong.

    Having said that, I perfectly agree that such a finale is clearly open ended, because left the filmmakers with endless further possibilities. We're not talking about a Logan type finale, this is pretty obvious. I'm super curious about the further development of Madeleine, because is the first time in the history of the franchise where a main Bond girl comes back again in a direct sequel.
    I think perhaps we're writing at cross purposes here. I agree with you that the ending of SP can certainly be interpreted the way you suggest. In fact, I think that's the most obvious interpretation, given the heavy handedness of some of the imagery (hanging photos anyone?). This is why I'm personally done with the Craig Bond. It has nothing to do with disliking the actor (I went to see him on Broadway and am looking forward to Knives Out). Rather it has to do with his arc, which has been very obviously thrown in our faces. One would have to be somewhat blind not to notice what they were dishing in SP.

    My point is more that the ending, while providing some closure to his story, was still open ended (I perhaps shouldn't have written vague earlier). It therefore allowed for a seamless segueway into a new Bond actor, as I explained earlier. That's how I would like them to leave B25 as well. That was my initial point. I don't want explicit closure to this Bond's story as a self contained entity. Rather, I'd prefer something as open ended as SP was. I doubt that's what we'll get, but it's what I'd prefer. I am not a fan of creating self contained narratives within the Bond universe.

    On the other hand I'm very happy he's back, because I don't see the SP finale as a satisfying end to his Bond story arc. Never liked the idea of leaving Craig's Bond in a situation where he drives away happy with a girl who made him quit the job in such a manner. Self contained narratives are tricky but are a reflection of our times filled with cinematic universes. We've been lucky that the continuity in this 4 movies arc is extremely loose.*

    * Yes I know QoS takes place hours after CR, but the movie didn't feel like a classic sequel. QoS is a beast of his own.
  • Posts: 385
    If they aren't planning to make this film look like a finale and Bond25 turned out to be successful, I see no reason why DC can't return for 6th and 7th film he is a damn good actor He is doing this film to see if his magic still works, if it does he will surely want to return for more.

    Roger Moore was too old for his last two, but we should definitely have a Daniel Craig just as old, or even older, for two more movies. I do wish the fan base was more consistent.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited January 2019 Posts: 23,883
    matt_u wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    matt_u wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I get your point @matt_u and hopefully you'll forgive the sarcasm. I realize all those elements are sprinkled throughout the film (not too subtly for my tastes I might add). More than anything, those points carry back to CR and Vesper, and that's why for me it all suggested a perfect bookend to the Craig era.

    However, that doesn't mean that the ending couldn't be interpreted differently. As @patb noted, it could just be a holiday (in fact, Bond alludes to the fact that he is due for one in the opening post-Titles scene in M's office).

    We had a thread (or several) here at the time of SP's release debating this very matter. Why would we do that if it was such an open and shut case?

    After the fact and with the benefit of hindsight we can now say that there is a reason for Madeleine to be back, but was anyone clamouring for that when Boyle was in charge? Not to my knowledge. Many members were saying how great it was that we were supposedly getting a fresh 'standalone' at that time. So hindsight is 20/20.

    Keep in mind also that Fukunaga has alluded to a journey from CR, and not an SP continuation. He didn't even mention SP once. So frankly we don't know how they will deal with the Madeleine matter at the moment, or the events of that prior film. It remains to be seen if Craig Bond left the force only to come back, or if all of that will even be acknowledged.

    My earlier point is that the end of SP allowed for different ways of looking at things. Some could have said holiday, others that he left for good and yet others that it was the end of this interpretation, with a new one to just follow on after years have passed (with a new man as Blofeld). Did anyone wonder where Stacey and the soap were when Tim was introduced? No. We just moved on, even with Gogol, M (played by Brown) and Q (played by Llewelyn) in tow. That's one of the reasons these films have been so successful continuously imho - because they don't directly acknowledge time and events too much - it's there but it's vague.

    Nothing to forgive and sorry for the late response.

    Forgive me if I insist, but I really can't see any other interpretation of the SP finale than Bond choosing to seriously quit with his life as an assassin. I'm speaking just about SP storyline from a character arc standpoint without taking in consideration future development, which could be endless. But at the end of SP Bond is clearly convinced to STOP, not just goin away for a couple of weeks. It's not even the first time, he already did in CR in a way but then happened the Vesper betrayal. The thing that makes his choice so important and true it's not only linked to the strong symbolism on the bridge scene, but especially with the character of Madeleine. He's dealing with a woman who ran away from her father "and his sick life" and even left Bond once she understood that he would never stop (the Hildebran Print and Rarities scene). She even told him:

    "James I can't. I can't go back to this life and I'm not going to ask you to change. This is who you are".

    This is extremely important, because Bond choosing Madeleine over the Scooby Gang means he's embracing a change in his life. Because this is what SP is all about at the end. I can agree that everything feels rushed, given the size of this choice, but this is it. Of course it doesn't mean that he will never go back to work as a spy. In life things change, people die, but the emotional impact of this choice in SP is very true and strong.

    Having said that, I perfectly agree that such a finale is clearly open ended, because left the filmmakers with endless further possibilities. We're not talking about a Logan type finale, this is pretty obvious. I'm super curious about the further development of Madeleine, because is the first time in the history of the franchise where a main Bond girl comes back again in a direct sequel.
    I think perhaps we're writing at cross purposes here. I agree with you that the ending of SP can certainly be interpreted the way you suggest. In fact, I think that's the most obvious interpretation, given the heavy handedness of some of the imagery (hanging photos anyone?). This is why I'm personally done with the Craig Bond. It has nothing to do with disliking the actor (I went to see him on Broadway and am looking forward to Knives Out). Rather it has to do with his arc, which has been very obviously thrown in our faces. One would have to be somewhat blind not to notice what they were dishing in SP.

    My point is more that the ending, while providing some closure to his story, was still open ended (I perhaps shouldn't have written vague earlier). It therefore allowed for a seamless segueway into a new Bond actor, as I explained earlier. That's how I would like them to leave B25 as well. That was my initial point. I don't want explicit closure to this Bond's story as a self contained entity. Rather, I'd prefer something as open ended as SP was. I doubt that's what we'll get, but it's what I'd prefer. I am not a fan of creating self contained narratives within the Bond universe.

    On the other hand I'm very happy he's back, because I don't see the SP finale as a satisfying end to his Bond story arc. Never liked the idea of leaving Craig's Bond in a situation where he drives away happy with a girl who made him quit the job in such a manner. Self contained narratives are tricky but are a reflection of our times filled with cinematic universes. We've been lucky that the continuity in this 4 movies arc is extremely loose.*

    * Yes I know QoS takes place hours after CR, but the movie didn't feel like a classic sequel. QoS is a beast of his own.
    I think this is because you buy into the Craig Bond narrative arc and liked SP (if I'm not mistaken). I on the other hand am not all that impressed with the arc as written and disliked SP immensely. Therefore any further continuance of said 'arc' gives me great pause because I'm not invested in it (in fact, I'll go so far as to say I'm turned off by it).

    Now, I don't know what we're going to get for B25, but if it's further explicit delving into the persona as defined since CR, then I'm likely to be unimpressed because I don't want to be reminded about it. SP killed it for me from a character continuation standpoint.

    However, if it's a relative standalone, as we expected with Boyle, with just a few nods here and there to the past - then I'm likely to be absolutely fine with it, as I still am with SF.

    EDIT: I'd prefer if the focus be on new characters or other characters rather than Bond, as was how I experienced and enjoyed SF.
  • Posts: 4,617
    The fact that informed Bond fans cant even agree re the character arc and what the script writers were trying to tell us is evidence in itself of what a mess SP left us with.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    Posts: 4,343
    bondjames wrote: »
    matt_u wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    matt_u wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I get your point @matt_u and hopefully you'll forgive the sarcasm. I realize all those elements are sprinkled throughout the film (not too subtly for my tastes I might add). More than anything, those points carry back to CR and Vesper, and that's why for me it all suggested a perfect bookend to the Craig era.

    However, that doesn't mean that the ending couldn't be interpreted differently. As @patb noted, it could just be a holiday (in fact, Bond alludes to the fact that he is due for one in the opening post-Titles scene in M's office).

    We had a thread (or several) here at the time of SP's release debating this very matter. Why would we do that if it was such an open and shut case?

    After the fact and with the benefit of hindsight we can now say that there is a reason for Madeleine to be back, but was anyone clamouring for that when Boyle was in charge? Not to my knowledge. Many members were saying how great it was that we were supposedly getting a fresh 'standalone' at that time. So hindsight is 20/20.

    Keep in mind also that Fukunaga has alluded to a journey from CR, and not an SP continuation. He didn't even mention SP once. So frankly we don't know how they will deal with the Madeleine matter at the moment, or the events of that prior film. It remains to be seen if Craig Bond left the force only to come back, or if all of that will even be acknowledged.

    My earlier point is that the end of SP allowed for different ways of looking at things. Some could have said holiday, others that he left for good and yet others that it was the end of this interpretation, with a new one to just follow on after years have passed (with a new man as Blofeld). Did anyone wonder where Stacey and the soap were when Tim was introduced? No. We just moved on, even with Gogol, M (played by Brown) and Q (played by Llewelyn) in tow. That's one of the reasons these films have been so successful continuously imho - because they don't directly acknowledge time and events too much - it's there but it's vague.

    Nothing to forgive and sorry for the late response.

    Forgive me if I insist, but I really can't see any other interpretation of the SP finale than Bond choosing to seriously quit with his life as an assassin. I'm speaking just about SP storyline from a character arc standpoint without taking in consideration future development, which could be endless. But at the end of SP Bond is clearly convinced to STOP, not just goin away for a couple of weeks. It's not even the first time, he already did in CR in a way but then happened the Vesper betrayal. The thing that makes his choice so important and true it's not only linked to the strong symbolism on the bridge scene, but especially with the character of Madeleine. He's dealing with a woman who ran away from her father "and his sick life" and even left Bond once she understood that he would never stop (the Hildebran Print and Rarities scene). She even told him:

    "James I can't. I can't go back to this life and I'm not going to ask you to change. This is who you are".

    This is extremely important, because Bond choosing Madeleine over the Scooby Gang means he's embracing a change in his life. Because this is what SP is all about at the end. I can agree that everything feels rushed, given the size of this choice, but this is it. Of course it doesn't mean that he will never go back to work as a spy. In life things change, people die, but the emotional impact of this choice in SP is very true and strong.

    Having said that, I perfectly agree that such a finale is clearly open ended, because left the filmmakers with endless further possibilities. We're not talking about a Logan type finale, this is pretty obvious. I'm super curious about the further development of Madeleine, because is the first time in the history of the franchise where a main Bond girl comes back again in a direct sequel.
    I think perhaps we're writing at cross purposes here. I agree with you that the ending of SP can certainly be interpreted the way you suggest. In fact, I think that's the most obvious interpretation, given the heavy handedness of some of the imagery (hanging photos anyone?). This is why I'm personally done with the Craig Bond. It has nothing to do with disliking the actor (I went to see him on Broadway and am looking forward to Knives Out). Rather it has to do with his arc, which has been very obviously thrown in our faces. One would have to be somewhat blind not to notice what they were dishing in SP.

    My point is more that the ending, while providing some closure to his story, was still open ended (I perhaps shouldn't have written vague earlier). It therefore allowed for a seamless segueway into a new Bond actor, as I explained earlier. That's how I would like them to leave B25 as well. That was my initial point. I don't want explicit closure to this Bond's story as a self contained entity. Rather, I'd prefer something as open ended as SP was. I doubt that's what we'll get, but it's what I'd prefer. I am not a fan of creating self contained narratives within the Bond universe.

    On the other hand I'm very happy he's back, because I don't see the SP finale as a satisfying end to his Bond story arc. Never liked the idea of leaving Craig's Bond in a situation where he drives away happy with a girl who made him quit the job in such a manner. Self contained narratives are tricky but are a reflection of our times filled with cinematic universes. We've been lucky that the continuity in this 4 movies arc is extremely loose.*

    * Yes I know QoS takes place hours after CR, but the movie didn't feel like a classic sequel. QoS is a beast of his own.
    I think this is because you buy into the Craig Bond narrative arc and liked SP (if I'm not mistaken). I on the other hand am not all that impressed with the arc as written and disliked SP immensely. Therefore any further continuance of said 'arc' gives me great pause because I'm not invested in it (in fact, I'll go so far as to say I'm turned off by it).

    Now, I don't know what we're going to get for B25, but if it's further explicit delving into the persona as defined since CR, then I'm likely to be unimpressed because I don't want to be reminded about it. SP killed it for me from a character continuation standpoint.

    However, if it's a relative standalone, as we expected with Boyle, with just a few nods here and there to the past - then I'm likely to be absolutely fine with it, as I still am with SF.

    Yep I loved SP. I understand your point of view. How much they will address the event of SP is a crucial nod for many inhere. I think they will a bit, but not that much to be honest. Especially because I think Madeleine will die in the pre-title sequence.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,231
    patb wrote: »
    The fact that informed Bond fans cant even agree re the character arc and what the script writers were trying to tell us is evidence in itself of what a mess SP left us with.

    Absolutely.
  • edited January 2019 Posts: 628
    MooreFun wrote: »
    If they aren't planning to make this film look like a finale and Bond25 turned out to be successful, I see no reason why DC can't return for 6th and 7th film he is a damn good actor He is doing this film to see if his magic still works, if it does he will surely want to return for more.

    Roger Moore was too old for his last two, but we should definitely have a Daniel Craig just as old, or even older, for two more movies. I do wish the fan base was more consistent.

    I don't get the Craig worship either. I like the guy, but c'mon. Some of his fans would be okay with him still playing Bond from a nursing home.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    edited January 2019 Posts: 4,343
    patb wrote: »
    The fact that informed Bond fans cant even agree re the character arc and what the script writers were trying to tell us is evidence in itself of what a mess SP left us with.

    Absolutely.

    I think the "SP mess" notion has been put really out of proportion inhere, but its just my opinion. But I don't want to re-start a discussion about SP in this topic.

    In the final SP script the last word were "We have all the time in the world", so perhaps in Purvis and Wade minds Madeleine was meant as a kind of Tracy character. Since they're using their draft for 25, maybe this is a nod to her death in 25. I always felt that this particlar (cut) line as a kind of doom for her character and I'm pretty sure they had discussion about this back in 2014.
  • Posts: 1,548
    Just heard the great news about Chris Maquarrie signing up for back to back MI films. EON will have to raise their game now.
  • Posts: 6,710
    Escalus5 wrote: »
    MooreFun wrote: »
    If they aren't planning to make this film look like a finale and Bond25 turned out to be successful, I see no reason why DC can't return for 6th and 7th film he is a damn good actor He is doing this film to see if his magic still works, if it does he will surely want to return for more.

    Roger Moore was too old for his last two, but we should definitely have a Daniel Craig just as old, or even older, for two more movies. I do wish the fan base was more consistent.

    I don't get the Craig worship either. I like the guy, but c'mon. Some of his fans would be okay with him still playing Bond from a nursing home.

    The same way I'd be okay with Dalton playing Bond today. Or Brosnan. But mostly Dalton.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    Posts: 4,343
    One thing I love about the Craig era is that every movie looks and feels different from the others. So I'm glad we never experienced this back to back two pictures production with Bond. Perhaps it could work in the future with another actor, I don't know.
  • Posts: 628
    Univex wrote: »
    Escalus5 wrote: »
    MooreFun wrote: »
    If they aren't planning to make this film look like a finale and Bond25 turned out to be successful, I see no reason why DC can't return for 6th and 7th film he is a damn good actor He is doing this film to see if his magic still works, if it does he will surely want to return for more.

    Roger Moore was too old for his last two, but we should definitely have a Daniel Craig just as old, or even older, for two more movies. I do wish the fan base was more consistent.

    I don't get the Craig worship either. I like the guy, but c'mon. Some of his fans would be okay with him still playing Bond from a nursing home.

    The same way I'd be okay with Dalton playing Bond today. Or Brosnan. But mostly Dalton.

    Well, sure ... but that's Dalton. Different story!
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