No Time To Die: Production Diary

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  • Posts: 5,767
    patb wrote: »
    I think one of the long term issues with CGI is that the audience has become too used to massive action set pieces. We all know we are effectively watching digital cartoons. Movies like Day After Tomorrow, Ind Day, etc etc have meant that IMHO its not really possible now to get the audience on the edge of their seat via massive action. Even if it is real, people think it could be CGI anyway.
    The route needs to be very specific "surgical" use of great stunts (with subtle CGI if required) that put our hero at great risk and exploit the emotional connection that the audience has with the hero. Cruise's Atlas stunt , for me, has far more impact and integrity than a whole city being wiped out by a big wave or a villian's complex being blown up and fans still talk about the final set piece in TLD with great respect. I'm conviced this has to be the way forward with Bond and they are in big trouble if they just continue down the road of bigger and bigger explosions (CGI or real).
    It´s also a pity, because most CGI ages so quickly. If you watch John Capenter´s Escape from NY, it´s amazing how well those matte paintings hold up. If you watch Event Horizon, which had amazing CGI effects when it came out, it nowadays looks ridiculous.

  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    edited September 2016 Posts: 8,400
    Ofcourse DN should be the blueprint, they can't go wrong with that.
  • Posts: 4,617
    Yes, thats a good point. The climax to Wrath of Khan was all models and paint/dye within a tank. It still looks wonderful (to me anyway) plus the focus is on the character's role within the action, not the action itself. You are spot in re EH.
  • edited September 2016 Posts: 11,119
    Hello everyone?

    Feel free to read my latest essay about Bond #25 on Spy Command Essays and Spy Command Blog.
    image-bond-25.jpg. I used a bit of imagination in creating the Bond #25 header ;-).

    Lots of thanks to Mr Bill Koenig. I am curious what you guys think of it. It took me a while to write, and probably my English is a but rusty in some parts. Have fun reading. Any comments on Bill's blog would be greatly appreciated.
    sp-vs-ohmss-2.jpg


  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    @bondjames ,absolutely. DN had Bond in full investigative mode, and I'd love to see more of that, myself. In many ways DN works as an espionage mystery thriller with just a tad of sci -fi segued in towards the end.
    I think style-wise the biggest difference between the early 60s Connery films and pretty much all the later Brosnan plus entries is as Felix Leiter might say a "sense of adventure". Some of the newer Bonds sacrifice adventure for action- if that makes sense. Then a personal element is thrown in to make the film seems more prestigious than it is.
    I do feel as though the-this time it's personal- elements are often sloppily forced to appeal to the audience. Whereas a Bond film like DR NO or FRWL has every element needed to tell the story naturally.

    100% agree.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    doubleoego wrote: »
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    @bondjames ,absolutely. DN had Bond in full investigative mode, and I'd love to see more of that, myself. In many ways DN works as an espionage mystery thriller with just a tad of sci -fi segued in towards the end.
    I think style-wise the biggest difference between the early 60s Connery films and pretty much all the later Brosnan plus entries is as Felix Leiter might say a "sense of adventure". Some of the newer Bonds sacrifice adventure for action- if that makes sense. Then a personal element is thrown in to make the film seems more prestigious than it is.
    I do feel as though the-this time it's personal- elements are often sloppily forced to appeal to the audience. Whereas a Bond film like DR NO or FRWL has every element needed to tell the story naturally.

    100% agree.

    Sadly I don't believe EON is able to do something that would be as good as DN nowadays. Only GE and CR were as good. The rest is nowhere near the greatness of the old days.
  • edited September 2016 Posts: 19,339
    Personally,i cant think of any finale since the tanker chase in LTK that is anywhere up to this films standard...maybe SF is the closest, but all of the Brosnan's and the other Craig's arent at that stunt level of standard at all...
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Personally,i cant think of any finale since the tanker chase in LTK that is anywhere up to this films standard...maybe SF is the closest, but all of the Brosnan's and the other Craig's arent at that stunt level of standard at all...

    Solely speaking of finales, yes LTK has never been rivalled since. Certainly not in Skyfall which is just shooting holes into an old house and the helicopter landing in a house has been done to death in countless movies.
  • DoctorNoDoctorNo USA-Maryland
    Posts: 755
    Jesus, they made CR. It does seem like a fluke at this point, but here's some tips to follow:

    EON...

    1. Take another of Fleming's best books (good news, you own the rights!), hire a great writing team, develop and modernize it. Read it all the way through and like the script before you start filming.

    2. Hire a director with a track record of handling not only actors, but suspense and action (as suspense before spectacle). More good news, you can afford anyone! So, choose wisely. Watch their movies and analyze their strength and weaknesses.

    3. Get a composer that fits the material. Psst, you had one who did a pretty good job with QoS and CR, so looking shouldn't be too hard.

    There are no guarantees as filming is always unpredictable, but if you follow the steps above, you should be fine.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited September 2016 Posts: 23,883
    LTK was great, but I personally think GE (for a truly Bondian ending in the Adam'esque way) and SF (for something a little different- combining elements of MacGyver, The A Team & Home Alone) were also standouts over the past 20 yrs.

    The rest were 'meh' imho.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    DN was a decent enough start, but it has been surpassed by a handful of films, one of which is it's immediate successor, FRWL.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,400
    DN was a decent enough start, but it has been surpassed by a handful of films, one of which is it's immediate successor, FRWL.

    Not in my opinion.
  • Yeah I've never been a huge DN fan either. I respect it more than I enjoy it and I agree with @MajorDSmythe that FRWL is far better and is where things really clicked into place. DN feels like a prototype that's just not quite there while FRWL is the finished model.

    I agree on less locations though. I'd say two locations outside of London at most. Tone down the globe trotting, it'd save time, money and actually give the audience a taste of what these places are like. Shanghai in SF for instance was appalingly underused for instance imo, it could have been any non descript city if it weren't for a couple of establishing shots. Show Bond interacting with locals, actually show the culture of the place, make the setting part of the film instead of just a backdrop for a chase scene or whatever.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,400
    Bond 25 just has a nice ring to it. Should be a special one like Casino Royale or Goldeneye.
  • I agree on less locations though. I'd say two locations outside of London at most. Tone down the globe trotting, it'd save time, money and actually give the audience a taste of what these places are like. Shanghai in SF for instance was appalingly underused for instance imo, it could have been any non descript city if it weren't for a couple of establishing shots. Show Bond interacting with locals, actually show the culture of the place, make the setting part of the film instead of just a backdrop for a chase scene or whatever.

    Absolutely. I would particularly like to see this done in a place like Hong Kong or Tokyo, both of which are rich with sights and locales that to this day feel wholly unique to western civilization. Just strolling through those cities you feel like you've entered a whole different world. How difficult would it be to put that experience on film, but with Bond doing some cool investigative work, romancing a bit, meeting an ally for drinks, waltzing into some dangerous den, and a chase sequence or two? Seoul would work for this, too. Let's spend a good 45-60 minutes in one of these places and really get immersed in the culture.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited September 2016 Posts: 23,883
    I agree on less locations though. I'd say two locations outside of London at most. Tone down the globe trotting, it'd save time, money and actually give the audience a taste of what these places are like. Shanghai in SF for instance was appalingly underused for instance imo, it could have been any non descript city if it weren't for a couple of establishing shots. Show Bond interacting with locals, actually show the culture of the place, make the setting part of the film instead of just a backdrop for a chase scene or whatever.

    Absolutely. I would particularly like to see this done in a place like Hong Kong or Tokyo, both of which are rich with sights and locales that to this day feel wholly unique to western civilization. Just strolling through those cities you feel like you've entered a whole different world. How difficult would it be to put that experience on film, but with Bond doing some cool investigative work, romancing a bit, meeting an ally for drinks, waltzing into some dangerous den, and a chase sequence or two? Seoul would work for this, too. Let's spend a good 45-60 minutes in one of these places and really get immersed in the culture.
    It's interesting that you mention Hong Kong, because coincidentally I thought of the exact same locale when watching Snowden recently. It's featured in that film and really has a nice blend of modern high tech and shanty town style in the old quarter.
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    Dr.No isn't the best but it's solid and gets alot of things right that so many of its successors either get wrong or simply don't know how to do it. For starters, outside of the obligatory London scenes, we spend the whole adventure in one location and we actually see Bond work for a living, gathering intelligence and not relying on his buddies back at the office to hop on the next flight down to Jamaica and give him a helping hand.

    Yes, things are different but tge core principles don't have to be. Look at CR; that film stands up there with the other old school classics. Getting a great Bond movie shouldn't be this difficult. Like what @DoctorNo was saying, EoN have the rights to Fleming's books; use them! Develop a great script that dispenses with unecessary bull crap like overblown, overpriced explosions and shitty car chases. Then, hire Gareth Evans to direct. I watched both Raid films again the other day and this guy is just a phenomenal director. His camera work is ridiculously impressive and the man knows action, suspense and drama. The Raid 2 car chase alone gets him the job.

    ....Anyway, yes, scale back on the bs and focus on telling a tight thriller with excellent action thrown in. EoN need to look back and remember their own Bond history. They have more than enough material and money to wow the world for years to come; if they can be bloody bothered.
  • bondjames wrote: »
    I agree on less locations though. I'd say two locations outside of London at most. Tone down the globe trotting, it'd save time, money and actually give the audience a taste of what these places are like. Shanghai in SF for instance was appalingly underused for instance imo, it could have been any non descript city if it weren't for a couple of establishing shots. Show Bond interacting with locals, actually show the culture of the place, make the setting part of the film instead of just a backdrop for a chase scene or whatever.

    Absolutely. I would particularly like to see this done in a place like Hong Kong or Tokyo, both of which are rich with sights and locales that to this day feel wholly unique to western civilization. Just strolling through those cities you feel like you've entered a whole different world. How difficult would it be to put that experience on film, but with Bond doing some cool investigative work, romancing a bit, meeting an ally for drinks, waltzing into some dangerous den, and a chase sequence or two? Seoul would work for this, too. Let's spend a good 45-60 minutes in one of these places and really get immersed in the culture.
    It's interesting that you mention Hong Kong, because coincidentally I thought of the exact same locale when watching Snowden recently. It's featured in that film and really has a nice blend of modern high tech and shanty town style in the old quarter.

    The contrast between Hong Kong's older, more severely rundown apartments and factories and its great shining towers so perfectly representative of wealth and modernity is one of the more striking features of the city. It's almost impossible not to make Hong Kong look interesting on film. It's been perhaps my favorite city to film/photograph on my personal travels.

    I was particularly disappointed when I saw The Dark Knight after hearing that Nolan had filmed on-location in Hong Kong for part of the film. It's barely there in the finished product apart from a few aerial shots and blurred out backgrounds behind close-ups of Bale and Freeman that could have been done in a studio. Right idea, astoundingly wrong execution. You saw more of "Hong Kong" in Batman Begins, if you ask me.

    I haven't seen Snowden yet, but now I'm interested. Is Hong Kong a focal point in the film, or only seen briefly?
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    boldfinger wrote: »
    tanaka123 wrote: »
    Matt007 wrote: »
    Regarding the end of spectre. Apart from qs ambiguous line, How is it any different to the end of goldfinger?

    Throwing his gun away I guess is symbolic of him leaving his life as an assassin.
    Bond throws his empty gun away at the beginning of SF. So if at all it´s more of an in-joke by Mendes.
    tanaka123 wrote: »
    Dialogue between Bond and Madeleine in the film centres on his choice of having or not having to live the life he currently leads, which parallels the dialogue between Bond and Vesper in CR.
    Yet with Vesper it was so much more believable.
    Bond quits?
    Arguably. Possibly, if the filmmakers intended to ridicule Craig´s Bond, having him quit just after he enthusiastically confirmed to the new M he´s ready for work with pleasure. I mean, lack of continuity is one thing, but this is just pure insanity.

    ToTheRight wrote: »
    @bondjames ,absolutely. DN had Bond in full investigative mode, and I'd love to see more of that, myself. In many ways DN works as an espionage mystery thriller with just a tad of sci -fi segued in towards the end.
    I think style-wise the biggest difference between the early 60s Connery films and pretty much all the later Brosnan plus entries is as Felix Leiter might say a "sense of adventure". Some of the newer Bonds sacrifice adventure for action- if that makes sense. Then a personal element is thrown in to make the film seems more prestigious than it is.
    I do feel as though the-this time it's personal- elements are often sloppily forced to appeal to the audience. Whereas a Bond film like DR NO or FRWL has every element needed to tell the story naturally.
    The funny thing is, the over-the-top-nonstop-action phase of Bond films seems to be over, leaving lots of space for thrill and tension, which however is not implemented.

    @boldfinger, I struggle to see, with all the themes the film explores of retiring and finding a new life, with Bond constantly being reminded what happens if you don't get out, why people still seem to think he's only going for a short time and will be back to MI6 in a week or two after taking a holiday, Madeleine be damned.

    Seriously? I thought explaining to people the obvious meaning behind the shooting scene and death of Severine in SF (with Bond's "waste of scotch" line) was like coaxing a brick wall into life it proved so difficult, but this threatens to trump that exhaustive effort on my part, and for a moment just as transparent. I think it would do some good to pop SP back in and pay attention to the buildup to that moment.
  • mcdonbbmcdonbb deep in the Heart of Texas
    Posts: 4,116
    deleted
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited September 2016 Posts: 23,883
    bondjames wrote: »
    I agree on less locations though. I'd say two locations outside of London at most. Tone down the globe trotting, it'd save time, money and actually give the audience a taste of what these places are like. Shanghai in SF for instance was appalingly underused for instance imo, it could have been any non descript city if it weren't for a couple of establishing shots. Show Bond interacting with locals, actually show the culture of the place, make the setting part of the film instead of just a backdrop for a chase scene or whatever.

    Absolutely. I would particularly like to see this done in a place like Hong Kong or Tokyo, both of which are rich with sights and locales that to this day feel wholly unique to western civilization. Just strolling through those cities you feel like you've entered a whole different world. How difficult would it be to put that experience on film, but with Bond doing some cool investigative work, romancing a bit, meeting an ally for drinks, waltzing into some dangerous den, and a chase sequence or two? Seoul would work for this, too. Let's spend a good 45-60 minutes in one of these places and really get immersed in the culture.
    It's interesting that you mention Hong Kong, because coincidentally I thought of the exact same locale when watching Snowden recently. It's featured in that film and really has a nice blend of modern high tech and shanty town style in the old quarter.

    The contrast between Hong Kong's older, more severely rundown apartments and factories and its great shining towers so perfectly representative of wealth and modernity is one of the more striking features of the city. It's almost impossible not to make Hong Kong look interesting on film. It's been perhaps my favorite city to film/photograph on my personal travels.

    I was particularly disappointed when I saw The Dark Knight after hearing that Nolan had filmed on-location in Hong Kong for part of the film. It's barely there in the finished product apart from a few aerial shots and blurred out backgrounds behind close-ups of Bale and Freeman that could have been done in a studio. Right idea, astoundingly wrong execution. You saw more of "Hong Kong" in Batman Begins, if you ask me.

    I haven't seen Snowden yet, but now I'm interested. Is Hong Kong a focal point in the film, or only seen briefly?
    It's not a focal point, but the modern parts of the city feature in background and establishing shots, and also because he's holed up in a contemporary hotel for while. Then they show us one of those severely rundown apartments that you mentioned for a brief while, because Snowden is sent there to hide from the authorities. So the city is not heavily featured, but I saw enough of the contrasting aspects to realize it would make a fantastic Bond location, as you noted (I'm always on the lookout for favourable spots for Bond when I watch movies).

    I think one of the better uses of Hong Kong (although quite dated now) was in James Clavell's Noble House miniseries adaptation from 1988, which featured Pierce Brosnan in the starring role.
  • Posts: 150
    Hello everyone?

    Feel free to read my latest essay about Bond #25 on Spy Command Essays and Spy Command Blog.
    image-bond-25.jpg. I used a bit of imagination in creating the Bond #25 header ;-).

    Lots of thanks to Mr Bill Koenig. I am curious what you guys think of it. It took me a while to write, and probably my English is a but rusty in some parts. Have fun reading. Any comments on Bill's blog would be greatly appreciated.
    sp-vs-ohmss-2.jpg


    great read. totally agree. well done.

  • Thanks for the kind words @nikos78 :-).
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Interesting article, @Gustav_Graves. You do nice work of summarizing the state of play right now, and how the movie going culture will view a Bond 25 with or without Craig, and how other franchises out there like the Marvel films and its hyper-continuity have possibly given critics unfair expectations for all franchises to carry that same heavy continuity.

    I found it interesting that you view a Daniel Craig return in Bond 25 as necessitating a standalone, more formulaic ending to set up the next actor, which is an avenue I don't see EON traveling down. I think Dan's run, much like Nolan's Batman that you like mentioning, will exist as its own separate thing in the franchise, and afterward the next actor and team will do something new just as Snyder and co. have done with what is now called the DC Extended Universe. New team, new ideas, new everything, a complete blank slate.

    A return of Daniel won't have Blofeld slipping into the shadows, nor do I think we will see the film wasting time and energy setting up a future actor. Instead, it will be a no holds barred battle between the two. I also think it's far more likely the film will endeavor to tell the last Bond story and show Bond deciding what his future will be in great finality, retirement or a return to service.

    They could go the route where Bond is compelled to take on Blofeld one last time (rescued from capture by Hinx?), and following the conclusion of that mission, he may go find Madeleine again (after she is put away safely) and drive off into his future away from the life he is now able to leave behind.

    Or things could take a more interesting turn. We see Bond bored by his life with Madeleine, craving what he used to have, and he uses the opportunity of Blofeld escaping to throw himself back into service to live the life he really wants. He went with Madeleine thinking he had a chance to do something new, but found out it was never in him in the first place, and that maybe what happened with Vesper saved him from living a life that didn't suit who he was as a man where he was lying to himself about what he wanted. Madeleine gets angry at him for going back to MI6, telling him she thought he was past this, but Bond realizes where his real heart lies. He completes his mission, stops and kills Blofeld, and outs the rest of SPECTRE, cutting off that tentacle of villainy effectively. He has a final meeting with Madeleine where he confesses his feelings and how he can't see himself being tamed by a quiet life, and leaves her behind to continue working at MI6 and doing the work he was destined for.


    I don't see the film going to far off the path of something like that. EON went to the taxing trouble of getting the rights to Blofeld and SPECTRE back, and they are going to use them, big time, in a final Daniel Craig Bond film that holds nothing back.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    @Gustav_Graves

    Finished reading. Wonderful article. Thank you.

    Personally I see the future of Bond a bit more brighter. No matter if Craig returns or not, BB + MGW won't have too many sleepless nights over a new script or direction.

    Bond automatically will create a BO of at least 700 million, possibly 750 million USD worldwide. And that means even if the film would fail the critics.
    The name James Bond alone will sell enough tickets to make enough ROI (Return on Invest).
    Of course given, the production cost will not be insanely high, but I don't think it will be.

    If Bond 25 would turn out to be another critics darling, like SF was, and won't face any strong competition at the cinema, another 900 million movie will be possible.

    BUT what I believe is a certainty is, that Bond 25, or 26, or 27 will not make another billion. Bond isn't that big, it never was, it never will be.

    Skyfall was a fluke. The 50th Anniversary lured in all generations to the cinema. That won't happen again.

    Once that reality has set in with everybody, we can all get relaxed and just look forward to Bond 25 with the knowledge it will not be the last one, as it is guaranteed it will make profit no matter what.
  • Interesting article, @Gustav_Graves. You do nice work of summarizing the state of play right now, and how the movie going culture will view a Bond 25 with or without Craig, and how other franchises out there like the Marvel films and its hyper-continuity have possibly given critics unfair expectations for all franchises to carry that same heavy continuity.

    I found it interesting that you view a Daniel Craig return in Bond 25 as necessitating a standalone, more formulaic ending to set up the next actor, which is an avenue I don't see EON traveling down. I think Dan's run, much like Nolan's Batman that you like mentioning, will exist as its own separate thing in the franchise, and afterward the next actor and team will do something new just as Snyder and co. have done with what is now called the DC Extended Universe. New team, new ideas, new everything, a complete blank slate.

    It could very well happen yes. Realistically that's one of the scenarios I was pointing at. But, personally, I would feel rather gutted if they...go the Zack Snyder route. And let's face it...."Batman vs. Superman" was for the Batman-franchise what "SPECTRE" was for the Bond franchise....with a huge reboot-button added to it. And it didn't really.....work. "Batman vs. Superman" critically was a flop.
    A return of Daniel won't have Blofeld slipping into the shadows, nor do I think we will see the film wasting time and energy setting up a future actor. Instead, it will be a no holds barred battle between the two. I also think it's far more likely the film will endeavor to tell the last Bond story and show Bond deciding what his future will be in great finality, retirement or a return to service.

    They could go the route where Bond is compelled to take on Blofeld one last time (rescued from capture by Hinx?), and following the conclusion of that mission, he may go find Madeleine again (after she is put away safely) and drive off into his future away from the life he is now able to leave behind.

    To me...personally.......I am kind of....tired of turning Bond into some sort of stage play vehicle on which the whole -forgive me- goddamn palet of human emotions is sticking to it like some kind of obligatory Oscar-vehicle :-P. I think...Martin Campbell, Marc Forster and Sam Mendes already went down that route....heavily. Luckily we already saw a bit of a 'plain, solid mission' showing up in SP. Now it's time to go full-throttle I think. Bond is a spy, not your next-door husband :-P.
    Or things could take a more interesting turn. We see Bond bored by his life with Madeleine, craving what he used to have, and he uses the opportunity of Blofeld escaping to throw himself back into service to live the life he really wants. He went with Madeleine thinking he had a chance to do something new, but found out it was never in him in the first place, and that maybe what happened with Vesper saved him from living a life that didn't suit who he was as a man where he was lying to himself about what he wanted. Madeleine gets angry at him for going back to MI6, telling him she thought he was past this, but Bond realizes where his real heart lies. He completes his mission, stops and kills Blofeld, and outs the rest of SPECTRE, cutting off that tentacle of villainy effectively. He has a final meeting with Madeleine where he confesses his feelings and how he can't see himself being tamed by a quiet life, and leaves her behind to continue working at MI6 and doing the work he was destined for.

    Now, to.....round up the story with Madeleine, I do actually like this idea. I frequently pointed out that it could be pretty original to go the route that novels "FRWL" and "Trigger Mortis" went. In those novels Bond basically concludes or ends the love relationship at the very start with Tiffany Case and Pussy Galore. If done right, this could be interesting.
    I don't see the film going to far off the path of something like that. EON went to the taxing trouble of getting the rights to Blofeld and SPECTRE back, and they are going to use them, big time, in a final Daniel Craig Bond film that holds nothing back.

    Let's see if Daniel Craig returns or not. One thing is for sure...the pre-production of Bond #25 will perhaps be as crucial and exciting as Bond #21...which eventually led to the great "Casino Royale". Interesting and fascinating times for a Bond fan :-).

    Thanks anyway for your nice remark @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7 ;-).
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,400
    It's been yonks since a Bond film had a really good, or at least decent plot. CR is courtesy of Mr Fleming so I don't count that. QoS actually could have had an interesting plot but, like SPECTRE, it gets pushed to one side. Skyfall didn't even have a plot.

    I hope with Bond 25 Bond is more of an enigma again, and less time is spent filling in his past or explaining how he became the man he did. I think that avenue has been well and truly explored for now.

    When people talk about "making a classic Bond film", I think EON rather got the wrong end of the stick. I don't think people meant that they wanted to see Bond wear a white dinner jacket or battle evil henchmen, I think they meant they wanted an actual plot with a beginning a middle and an end. We don't need to understand why Bond does what he does, he has a license to kill, IT'S HIS JOB!!

    A part of me thinks there is an impotence in the plot department that they are trying to compensate for with this aggressive character study malarkey.
  • A part of me thinks there is an impotence in the plot department that they are trying to compensate for with this aggressive character study malarkey.

    Well, I do agree with you to a certain extend. But I do think the so called 'agressive character malarkey' isn't the real problem of a good plot. It's logic and plain common sense in the mission department. The reasoning needs to be sound and Bond's motivations must be more clear.

    You can still have good character studies -it's actually something the Craig films excell at-, but it should be less related to personal and historical backgrounds and more related to more simple plausible circumstances and some fresh common sense.

    You know, my mum and dad met each other in 1976 for the first time. Not because their parents were some kind of villains. But simply because they got a 'click' when they met somewhere. Peter Hunt knew how to do that with Tracy, Campbell knew how to do that with Vesper.

    But again.........don't we want a WHOLE new type of Bond girl? What about a lesbian with a heavy Cockney accent who actually knows how to ridicule Bond in the most funny way possible? A bit like Tiffany Case....sans sexism :-). Let's get rid of the Tracy's, Vesper's and Madeleine's. Instead bring in a beefy girl who out of the blue screams in a realistic way "Bond, you're a c**nt!".
  • Posts: 16,169
    It's been yonks since a Bond film had a really good, or at least decent plot. CR is courtesy of Mr Fleming so I don't count that. QoS actually could have had an interesting plot but, like SPECTRE, it gets pushed to one side. Skyfall didn't even have a plot.

    I hope with Bond 25 Bond is more of an enigma again, and less time is spent filling in his past or explaining how he became the man he did. I think that avenue has been well and truly explored for now.

    When people talk about "making a classic Bond film", I think EON rather got the wrong end of the stick. I don't think people meant that they wanted to see Bond wear a white dinner jacket or battle evil henchmen, I think they meant they wanted an actual plot with a beginning a middle and an end. We don't need to understand why Bond does what he does, he has a license to kill, IT'S HIS JOB!!

    A part of me thinks there is an impotence in the plot department that they are trying to compensate for with this aggressive character study malarkey.

    Well said. I'd be thrilled if Eon would just give us a "James Bond Movie" for B25. I feel with the Craig era, there's been so much tampering with formula, character, introductions, backstory, etc etc etc Eon has lost track of what a "James Bond Movie" actually is.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    edited September 2016 Posts: 8,400
    A part of me thinks there is an impotence in the plot department that they are trying to compensate for with this aggressive character study malarkey.

    Well, I do agree with you to a certain extend. But I do think the so called 'agressive character malarkey' isn't the real problem of a good plot. It's logic and plain common sense in the mission department. The reasoning needs to be sound and Bond's motivations must be more clear.

    You can still have good character studies -it's actually something the Craig films excell at-, but it should be less related to personal and historical backgrounds and more related to more simple plausible circumstances and some fresh common sense.

    You know, my mum and dad met each other in 1976 for the first time. Not because their parents were some kind of villains. But simply because they got a 'click' when they met somewhere. Peter Hunt knew how to do that with Tracy, Campbell knew how to do that with Vesper.

    But again.........don't we want a WHOLE new type of Bond girl? What about a lesbian with a heavy Cockney accent who actually knows how to ridicule Bond in the most funny way possible? A bit like Tiffany Case....sans sexism :-). Let's get rid of the Tracy's, Vesper's and Madeleine's. Instead bring in a beefy girl who out of the blue screams in a realistic way "Bond, you're a c**nt!".

    I agree, there are proper ways to do it. I just feel lately the plot has taken a back seat, like it isn't even a priority anymore.

    I think with Bond 25 they should just focus on a tight plot with few loose threads. Then, if they want too, they can reintroduce those elements over time. We need a palate cleanser Bond film, like TND or OP or something. Not that silly tone, but something inconsequential in the grand scheme of things. I think someone said it best with "low-key".
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