No Time To Die: Production Diary

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  • BMW_with_missilesBMW_with_missiles All the usual refinements.
    Posts: 3,000
    Craigbond's character from CR to SP is a bloody mess anyway. The worst written Bond ever.

    I agree. They tried to create an overarching story about his character and have failed miserably. CR was supposed to be an origin story with Bond being Bond at the end. QoS screwed that up by continuing an origin story, and SF tried to do a whole new "Bond becoming Bond" story. SP was the first time Craig was actually Bond, and they even screwed that up to a degree.

    People criticize SP for following the formula too closely, but I noticed the biggest flaws in SP happened every time they tried to subvert the formula. The lame love story, the step-brother thing, and the ending where we see Bond willfully choosing not to kill the villain, are the only times the film goes against the formula, and are its biggest mistakes.

    Film-Bond needs to do Film-Bond.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    That's exactly what I meant with my bold and simple statement :)
    @BMW_with_missiles thanks for doing the nuanced and detailed part for me :D
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2016 Posts: 23,883
    Good post @BMW_with_missiles. They tried to do a lot with SP, but a lot of it comes across as half baked in my view. It's tonally and conceptually confused, at least to me.

    That's why I, like others, am hoping they strip it back to basics for B25.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,304
    I'd like to see a back-to-basics Bond 25, stripping away the bloat of SF and especially SP.

    An angry Bond (Craig does that best), a minimal M and Moneypenny, and maybe Q in the field. Loose remake of LTK, anyone?
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    EoN are experts at ignoring things. The biggest one being, rebooting the series and keeping Dench. I think Bond 25 can carry on quite successfully from SP in a way that loosely continues where SP left off, if they want to go that route; but without the need to mention or bring up the crappy parts. "Brofeld" doesn't ever have to be brought up or mentioned ever again. He's just Blofeld and he's the bad guy. End of. Tell a great story with strength in equal measure for character, plot and spectacle.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,400
    doubleoego wrote: »
    EoN are experts at ignoring things. The biggest one being, rebooting the series and keeping Dench. I think Bond 25 can carry on quite successfully from SP in a way that loosely continues where SP left off, if they want to go that route; but without the need to mention or bring up the crappy parts. "Brofeld" doesn't ever have to be brought up or mentioned ever again. He's just Blofeld and he's the bad guy. End of. Tell a great story with strength in equal measure for character, plot and spectacle.

    In that case, I think its better to just recast.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    They've always kept members of the old guard during a reboot. That's not something new.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    edited November 2016 Posts: 15,423
    But, the game of "always" was with a different producer (Cubby). Let us all keep that in mind, too. The Craig era and however the production of each film in the period was built had an awful amount of different construction basis compared to the ones that came before it. Up to DAD, Babs and Mike tried to play it Cubby's way... It changed afterwards.
  • edited November 2016 Posts: 12,837
    I'm pretty certain that the next Bond will be a more back to basics approach. When Craig debuted all this personal, character driven, origin story drama was what was popular. Now those films are a dying breed. The critical acclaim is going to more straight forward, traditional (but still well made) action films, like Fury Road, John Wick, etc. With these films, there may be personal motivations and character development but they don't wallow in that. They just use that as devices to move forward the story and the action forward. John Wick never stops and wallows in his own pity at a bar and the villain never taunts him about how he'll die alone because he's an assassin. Mad Max doesn't stare solemnly at the graves of his dead wife and son and that girl that he failed to protect.

    I think the next Bond film could end up reflecting this new trend, in the film itself (I mean we're already halfway there with Spectre, the foster brother angle was really downplayed) and with the choice of director (John Wick and Fury Road were action films directed by people with experience in action films, not "auteurs" having a go at revitalizing and/or deconstructing a popular character).
    Craigbond's character from CR to SP is a bloody mess anyway. The worst written Bond ever.

    I wouldn't go that far but I do understand your frustration. One of the main issue's I have with Craig's first three is that they all essentially have the same ending. Him "becoming" Bond. It was frustrating that we kept getting endings signifying the end of the origin story and then found him back to square one with some new trust/personal issue to overcome by the beginning of the next film.

    Personally though I liked how he developed over the course of the films. It was clear that they were making it up as they were going along but I really like how they showed him developing from a real, vulnerable, Flemingesque Bond into the cinematic superman Connery/Moore/Brosnan Bond, while at the same time examining the effect that'd have on a persons psyche (I thought this was particularly well done in SP, with it exploring how desensitized to killing he is, and the callbacks to CR highlighted this even more).

    In SF it was a bit jarring how he was suddenly a whole new character but in SP (which really deserves more credit for its writing imo), they essentially turned this into a plot point.
  • Posts: 11,425
    bondjames wrote: »
    Good post @BMW_with_missiles. They tried to do a lot with SP, but a lot of it comes across as half baked in my view. It's tonally and conceptually confused, at least to me.

    That's why I, like others, am hoping they strip it back to basics for B25.

    I agree that SP is a bit confused but I still feel this is even more the case with SF.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2016 Posts: 23,883
    Getafix wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Good post @BMW_with_missiles. They tried to do a lot with SP, but a lot of it comes across as half baked in my view. It's tonally and conceptually confused, at least to me.

    That's why I, like others, am hoping they strip it back to basics for B25.

    I agree that SP is a bit confused but I still feel this is even more the case with SF.
    The feeling that I get with SP is that they tried to bolt a Craig style melodrama onto a formula Bond film. The two are like oil and water. They don't mix well.

    With SF, I think it was an all out Craig style character drama. A bit light on the action, but heavy on the feelings and personalities. I don't think they straddled with SF.

    I just hope, whatever direction they choose to take with B25, that they are consistent in theme and conception. Go all in.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,400
    bondjames wrote: »
    I believe we will see more of a return to tradition. More of a GE to follow the Dalton'eque run (on steroids) that Craig has had. I realize this may upset some people.

    That's sounds so refreshing at the moment.
  • Posts: 1,680
    A straight forward no drama formula film wont happen in Bond 25 if Craig is doing it.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,304
    Murdock wrote: »
    They've always kept members of the old guard during a reboot. That's not something new.

    There has been only one reboot.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,216
    echo wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    They've always kept members of the old guard during a reboot. That's not something new.

    There has been only one reboot.
    that's is debatable.

  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    echo wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    They've always kept members of the old guard during a reboot. That's not something new.

    There has been only one reboot.

    Two in my head canon.

    Sean, George and Roger are one long continuity. Tim and Pierce are a second continuity. And Daniel is a new one. Two reboots.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,216
    Murdock wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    They've always kept members of the old guard during a reboot. That's not something new.

    There has been only one reboot.

    Two in my head canon.

    Sean, George and Roger are one long continuity. Tim and Pierce are a second continuity. And Daniel is a new one. Two reboots.

    Yep!

  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,304
    Murdock wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    They've always kept members of the old guard during a reboot. That's not something new.

    There has been only one reboot.

    Two in my head canon.

    Sean, George and Roger are one long continuity. Tim and Pierce are a second continuity. And Daniel is a new one. Two reboots.

    Dalton's link to Tracy is pretty clear.
  • edited November 2016 Posts: 6,844
    On the one hand, when I was growing up the Brosnan films were always the new ones with DN through LTK being the old, plus with the turnover in Mi6 staff and 6-year gap it's easy to view the Brosnan era as part of a new timeline. Then again with Moore's age in AVtaK and the end of his long run, I can see how some would view that as the end of a timeline.

    However, at the end of the day, I recognize what the films themselves recognize as the only two existing timelines: DN-DAD and CR-?

    (I will say, however, that Skyfall throws a small wrench into things with its very blatant nod to the Goldfinger Aston Martin, but I'm willing to recognize that as simply a very small and very misguided bit of "fan" service—fan being singular and referring to Mendes himself.)
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    echo wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    They've always kept members of the old guard during a reboot. That's not something new.

    There has been only one reboot.

    Two in my head canon.

    Sean, George and Roger are one long continuity. Tim and Pierce are a second continuity. And Daniel is a new one. Two reboots.

    Dalton's link to Tracy is pretty clear.

    So does Pierce, They had Tracy in their continuity's too we just didn't see it.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2016 Posts: 23,883
    echo wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    They've always kept members of the old guard during a reboot. That's not something new.

    There has been only one reboot.

    Two in my head canon.

    Sean, George and Roger are one long continuity. Tim and Pierce are a second continuity. And Daniel is a new one. Two reboots.

    Dalton's link to Tracy is pretty clear.
    Moreover, Gogol is discussed in the safehouse in TLD (transferred to Foreign Ministry) and makes an appearance later in the film.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    As I said, members of the old guard come to the reboots.
  • I personally am very curious to see where things go post-Craig. Will we revert to the old timeline and have a Bond who has had Tracy in his past? Will the new Bond continue from Craig and be Blofeld's stepbrother and have Vesper in his past? Will the new Bond be his own thing and arrive with no baggage, and if so will we ever see a Bond who has known Vesper or Tracy again?
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    I personally am very curious to see where things go post-Craig. Will we revert to the old timeline and have a Bond who has had Tracy in his past? Will the new Bond continue from Craig and be Blofeld's stepbrother and have Vesper in his past? Will the new Bond be his own thing and arrive with no baggage, and if so will we ever see a Bond who has known Vesper or Tracy again?
    Those are indeed fascinating questions, and I'm interested to know what they do here as well.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited November 2016 Posts: 6,304
    Murdock wrote: »
    As I said, members of the old guard come to the reboots.

    Or, all the actors are playing the same character, James Bond. See also Felix Leiter, Blofeld, etc.

    Recasting does not mean reboot. Plus, the concept of reboot was fairly uncommon until the 2000s (Batman, Bond, Spiderman).
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    echo wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    As I said, members of the old guard come to the reboots.

    Or, all the actors are playing the same character, James Bond. See also Felix Leiter, Blofeld, etc.

    Recasting does not mean reboot. Plus, the concept of reboot was fairly uncommon until the 2000s (Batman, Bond, Spiderman).

    Reboots happened a lot before the term became popular. It doesn't matter anyway because it's just what "I" think. It's my headcanon. I say there were two reboots, you don't. It's all just opinion's anyway.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    There are no "timelines".
    Dalton or Pierce certainly didn't start a reboot.
    While CR kind of did it was taken ad absurdum the moment Dench appeared. And no, I don't take the claim she played two different Ms seriously, Furthermore the DB5 etc.

    CR was kind of Bond Begins and only because of the story. It is still the same James Bond.

    People are reading way too much into it.

    24 films, all linked together all with continuity problems, some of them on purpose.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    edited November 2016 Posts: 16,351
    It's all a matter of perspective. There are timelines to me. I use critical thinking to link certain films together. It's all a bit of fun.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    edited November 2016 Posts: 8,216
    echo wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    They've always kept members of the old guard during a reboot. That's not something new.

    There has been only one reboot.

    Two in my head canon.

    Sean, George and Roger are one long continuity. Tim and Pierce are a second continuity. And Daniel is a new one. Two reboots.

    Dalton's link to Tracy is pretty clear.

    That doesn't mean it's the same Tracy, in the same timeline as Lazenby. Two, or more, different timelines can contain the same characters.
    Brosnan's M is not Craig's M even though she is played by the same actress. Theoretically, if they were to do a one off with Pierce, Judy Dench could return as M because THAT M was not killed in that timeline.

    I'm with Murdock; there are timelines and I tend to group them by the ages of the actors.


  • There are no "timelines".
    Dalton or Pierce certainly didn't start a reboot.
    While CR kind of did it was taken ad absurdum the moment Dench appeared. And no, I don't take the claim she played two different Ms seriously, Furthermore the DB5 etc.

    CR was kind of Bond Begins and only because of the story. It is still the same James Bond.

    People are reading way too much into it.

    24 films, all linked together all with continuity problems, some of them on purpose.

    Sorry, I can't agree with this perspective, Jason. Casino Royale undeniably begins a new timeline. We see Bond receive his 00 status and set out on his first mission and no Tracy exists in this timeline—nor Blofeld until he reveals himself to Bond in SPECTRE. Craig is not the same Bond whom we saw in Dr. No, OHMSS, Live & Let Die, and Die Another Day. As for Judi Dench playing two different M's, this interpretation is more a matter of necessecity because they are so clearly two different timelines, but is actually backed by the fact that the M she plays in Brosnan's films and the M she plays in Craig's films have two very different demeanors.
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