No Time To Die: Production Diary

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  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    Posts: 10,591
    007Blofeld wrote: »
    MGM is the head of the train and eon are the box cars. MGM moves eon gets pulled along. If MGM doesn't move nothing happens. All eon can do is slow the train down but eon can't move it. Until MGM moves at full steam ahead eon can't do much and nothing happens. So until MGM moves and talks Bond 25 in a consistent basis nothing much will happen. Just to put an analogy on our little Bond 25 situation
    To quote Broccoli herself, EON's fate lies with the fate of MGM.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    edited June 2017 Posts: 15,423
    I personally find Renard and Carver combined more believable even in their unrealistic forms than Silva who just seems to be there and making things appear out of nowhere with a snap of his finger whenever the plot gods ask him to, and doesn't when the scripted routine doesn't. His motives are inconsistent of what he wants, his mannerisms and characteristics overall cringeworthy, everything that makes Skyfall heavily dislikable for me. The film is given too much credit, by far too much, than it deserves.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Your impressions mirror my own.....but of SP.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    Spectre isn't exactly the white horse at the peak of the mountain, either. But, I like it because it brought back the Bond of the old to a large extent.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Spectre isn't exactly the white horse at the peak of the mountain, either. But, I like it because it brought back the Bond of the old to a large extent.
    Just taking this back to B25, if that's what they thought they were doing, I hope they never attempt it again. At least not without bringing in new talent (or Campbell, to show them how to do it without making it overly predictable).
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    bondjames wrote: »
    Spectre isn't exactly the white horse at the peak of the mountain, either. But, I like it because it brought back the Bond of the old to a large extent.
    Just taking this back to B25, if that's what they thought they were doing, I hope they never attempt it again. At least not without bringing in new talent (or Campbell, to show them how to do it without making it overly predictable).
    Yep, precisely. Joining the other members in this crusade, I don't want a continuation story for B25. I'd rather have a fresh take and strip away from those "emotional drama" formulas. Just a regular thriller will suffice.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,392
    I don't think EON have the modesty to make a standalone thriller anymore.
  • DoctorNoDoctorNo USA-Maryland
    Posts: 755
    This argument about Spectre, Blofeld and stand alone villains... they all can work if the creators know what they're doing.

    I would argue a thread that weaves across films of a shadow organization that has to be uncovered over time, is actually more compelling. That's CR (and Le Chiffre was written for them), but they didn't execute well thereafter. So now people just want stand alones because then maybe they'll have a better chance of getting it right. Maybe yes, maybe no. But I want a creative team that can deliver either.

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Well put @DoctorNo. It's more about how you do it rather than what you do. Execution is everything. Sometimes it comes together, and sometimes it fails miserably. The margin for error gets smaller each time, as expectation and competition (which is quite heated and stronger than ever) increases.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    DoctorNo wrote: »
    This argument about Spectre, Blofeld and stand alone villains... they all can work if the creators know what they're doing.

    I would argue a thread that weaves across films of a shadow organization that has to be uncovered over time, is actually more compelling. That's CR (and Le Chiffre was written for them), but they didn't execute well thereafter. So now people just want stand alones because then maybe they'll have a better chance of getting it right. Maybe yes, maybe no. But I want a creative team that can deliver either.

    I don't deny that, but they've just cocked it up for a second time. These films are being made less frequently and with more fluid creative teams.

    The arc you suggest 'a thread that weaves across films of a shadow organization that has to be uncovered over time' - is precisely what I wouldn't want going forward. There's nothing appealing about that to me and we've just seen that in full flow. Besides, it may sound intriguing in principal, but in practice - with films running at a 3-4 year juncture - I don't feel it necessary.

    Based on these factors my preference post-Craig would be to pursue tight standalone films that deliver great modern villains. SPECTRE and Blofeld should be reserved for a time when they can nail what Fleming intended, which may be never, in which case so be it.

    A little like the Aston, we did without SPECTRE for 40+ years, let's focus on creating new iconography rather than continually pining for the past.

    I would like a Bond arc, sans melodrama, in the next tenure, but with unique stories each time out.

  • Posts: 19,339
    RC7 wrote: »
    DoctorNo wrote: »
    This argument about Spectre, Blofeld and stand alone villains... they all can work if the creators know what they're doing.

    I would argue a thread that weaves across films of a shadow organization that has to be uncovered over time, is actually more compelling. That's CR (and Le Chiffre was written for them), but they didn't execute well thereafter. So now people just want stand alones because then maybe they'll have a better chance of getting it right. Maybe yes, maybe no. But I want a creative team that can deliver either.

    I don't deny that, but they've just cocked it up for a second time. These films are being made less frequently and with more fluid creative teams.

    The arc you suggest 'a thread that weaves across films of a shadow organization that has to be uncovered over time' - is precisely what I wouldn't want going forward. There's nothing appealing about that to me and we've just seen that in full flow. Besides, it may sound intriguing in principal, but in practice - with films running at a 3-4 year juncture - I don't feel it necessary.

    Based on these factors my preference post-Craig would be to pursue tight standalone films that deliver great modern villains. SPECTRE and Blofeld should be reserved for a time when they can nail what Fleming intended, which may be never, in which case so be it.

    A little like the Aston, we did without SPECTRE for 40+ years, let's focus on creating new iconography rather than continually pining for the past.

    I would like a Bond arc, sans melodrama, in the next tenure, but with unique stories each time out.

    Ditto !!

    +1
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    +2.
  • Posts: 9,843
    for those complaining about what to do in between films regarding bond while this is a bit drier then I am used to as there is no film or Video Game (I had no idea how much Goldeneye and Bloodstone eased the tension between Quantum of solace and Skyfall) there are a lot of bond releated things

    Anothy Horrowitz Second bond novel
    The truly excellent Dynamite Comic books currently reading Hammerhead and just wow

    also if you are so inclined you can make bond fan trailers or fan music?
  • Posts: 1,162
    "I would like a Bond arc, sans melodrama, in the next tenure, but with unique stories each time out."

    I think I'm having an erotic experience. Feels good.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited June 2017 Posts: 6,277
    RC7 wrote: »
    007Blofeld wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    007Blofeld wrote: »
    I could really care less at this point now lets just move on and use Blofeld and spectre in a different way then spectre and all will be good even though I liked spectre they just need a new bond and new start

    They don't need SPECTRE or Blofeld going forward.

    Well they didn't bring them back for no reason and definitely not just one film in the Craig era they are in for the long haul past Craig. It would be foolish of them only being in one film.

    Well, I don't think many people would find it a stretch to say that 'bringing them back for no reason' is exactly what they did. It's another case of, just because the could, they didn't stop to think if they should. The logical move would've been to hold back and use them as a unique selling point going into the next actors tenure - making sure they nail it. For me, that is more problematic now.

    They can feasibly bring back Waltz's Blofeld for a denouement with Craig. I don't think they should use YOLT wholesale as others are suggesting, but the Blofeld of the novel (and the organisation) is a spent force and he himself fruitcake. This is a viable way to continue. Howver, beyond (and even including that) Spectre as an organisation do not have the gravitas nor appeal to serve as a credible threat going forward imo. They'd need seriously retooling, which I would leave until the next incumbent but one, if at all.

    However, for me, it's absolutely clear to see that the general audience (and I include myself in this) favour a 'villain of the week' scenario. From 73' through 2015', that's over 40 years, Bond survived on a diet of eclectic, individual villains. It's key to what keeps Bond ticking. It is no surprise to me that CR and SF have been the clear standouts in this era. There's nothing more exciting, in my mind, than seeing what nefarious force they concoct for the new adventure. Silva came through on that score, as (unsurprisingly) did Le Chiffre.

    Well, this fan got tired of the standalones and welcomed the greater arc promised by CR. It's just that Eon botched the execution of said arc.
    RC7 wrote: »
    DoctorNo wrote: »
    This argument about Spectre, Blofeld and stand alone villains... they all can work if the creators know what they're doing.

    I would argue a thread that weaves across films of a shadow organization that has to be uncovered over time, is actually more compelling. That's CR (and Le Chiffre was written for them), but they didn't execute well thereafter. So now people just want stand alones because then maybe they'll have a better chance of getting it right. Maybe yes, maybe no. But I want a creative team that can deliver either.

    I don't deny that, but they've just cocked it up for a second time. These films are being made less frequently and with more fluid creative teams.

    The arc you suggest 'a thread that weaves across films of a shadow organization that has to be uncovered over time' - is precisely what I wouldn't want going forward. There's nothing appealing about that to me and we've just seen that in full flow. Besides, it may sound intriguing in principal, but in practice - with films running at a 3-4 year juncture - I don't feel it necessary.

    Based on these factors my preference post-Craig would be to pursue tight standalone films that deliver great modern villains. SPECTRE and Blofeld should be reserved for a time when they can nail what Fleming intended, which may be never, in which case so be it.

    A little like the Aston, we did without SPECTRE for 40+ years, let's focus on creating new iconography rather than continually pining for the past.

    I would like a Bond arc, sans melodrama, in the next tenure, but with unique stories each time out.

    I agree with you about a Bond arc. However, the melodrama is built into the Bond character. What is CR the novel, if not melodrama? Or the ending of MR the novel?
  • DoctorNoDoctorNo USA-Maryland
    Posts: 755
    echo wrote: »
    Well, this fan got tired of the standalones and welcomed the greater arc promised by CR. It's just that Eon botched the execution of said arc.

    Exactly. They can botch either and have done so.

    I don't want melodrama either, but technically, prior to retcon, SF was a standalone and fairly melodramatic.

    I think we want the same thing, well executed films and are trying to set parameters under which they won't screw up. That's sad really and frustrating. They should be able to execute regardless of time between films. A plan as previously discussed would help.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    They just need far better writers. That's the number one problem.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    The producers must have a very soft spot for P&W. Otherwise, I see no point in keeping them in the gig.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    echo wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    007Blofeld wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    007Blofeld wrote: »
    I could really care less at this point now lets just move on and use Blofeld and spectre in a different way then spectre and all will be good even though I liked spectre they just need a new bond and new start

    They don't need SPECTRE or Blofeld going forward.

    Well they didn't bring them back for no reason and definitely not just one film in the Craig era they are in for the long haul past Craig. It would be foolish of them only being in one film.

    Well, I don't think many people would find it a stretch to say that 'bringing them back for no reason' is exactly what they did. It's another case of, just because the could, they didn't stop to think if they should. The logical move would've been to hold back and use them as a unique selling point going into the next actors tenure - making sure they nail it. For me, that is more problematic now.

    They can feasibly bring back Waltz's Blofeld for a denouement with Craig. I don't think they should use YOLT wholesale as others are suggesting, but the Blofeld of the novel (and the organisation) is a spent force and he himself fruitcake. This is a viable way to continue. Howver, beyond (and even including that) Spectre as an organisation do not have the gravitas nor appeal to serve as a credible threat going forward imo. They'd need seriously retooling, which I would leave until the next incumbent but one, if at all.

    However, for me, it's absolutely clear to see that the general audience (and I include myself in this) favour a 'villain of the week' scenario. From 73' through 2015', that's over 40 years, Bond survived on a diet of eclectic, individual villains. It's key to what keeps Bond ticking. It is no surprise to me that CR and SF have been the clear standouts in this era. There's nothing more exciting, in my mind, than seeing what nefarious force they concoct for the new adventure. Silva came through on that score, as (unsurprisingly) did Le Chiffre.

    Well, this fan got tired of the standalones and welcomed the greater arc promised by CR. It's just that Eon botched the execution of said arc.
    RC7 wrote: »
    DoctorNo wrote: »
    This argument about Spectre, Blofeld and stand alone villains... they all can work if the creators know what they're doing.

    I would argue a thread that weaves across films of a shadow organization that has to be uncovered over time, is actually more compelling. That's CR (and Le Chiffre was written for them), but they didn't execute well thereafter. So now people just want stand alones because then maybe they'll have a better chance of getting it right. Maybe yes, maybe no. But I want a creative team that can deliver either.

    I don't deny that, but they've just cocked it up for a second time. These films are being made less frequently and with more fluid creative teams.

    The arc you suggest 'a thread that weaves across films of a shadow organization that has to be uncovered over time' - is precisely what I wouldn't want going forward. There's nothing appealing about that to me and we've just seen that in full flow. Besides, it may sound intriguing in principal, but in practice - with films running at a 3-4 year juncture - I don't feel it necessary.

    Based on these factors my preference post-Craig would be to pursue tight standalone films that deliver great modern villains. SPECTRE and Blofeld should be reserved for a time when they can nail what Fleming intended, which may be never, in which case so be it.

    A little like the Aston, we did without SPECTRE for 40+ years, let's focus on creating new iconography rather than continually pining for the past.

    I would like a Bond arc, sans melodrama, in the next tenure, but with unique stories each time out.

    I agree with you about a Bond arc. However, the melodrama is built into the Bond character. What is CR the novel, if not melodrama? Or the ending of MR the novel?

    I was also keen to see where CR took us, and welcomed it, but as you say it didn't live up to the promise.

    I'm not necessarily sure if I'd term CR or MR as melodrama, perhaps merely drama, although I'll concede it if we're getting into semantics. Where CR works and SF/SP didn't, for me, is the trite soap opera mechanics between the key characters. It's this I'd be keen to avoid.

    The biggest problem these days is that you have TV series and multiverses attempting to build (and at times achieving) multilayered arcs between characters that take their time to build and resolve the narrative. Audiences expect it. If you can't deliver that, don't. Bond has to operate outside that remit. Bond films are about Bond.
  • edited June 2017 Posts: 12,837
    bondjames wrote: »
    Silva is one of the best.
    Milovy wrote: »
    But then the Craig era had the opposite issue; a villain with a clear personal motivation (Silva) was shoehorned in and it didn't quite work.
    Didn't quite work - why's that, would you say?

    I didn't mean Silva himself, he was brilliant and one of my favourite villains. What I meant was the retconning of him into Spectre didn't really work. It just came across as so contrived to me: Silva is an unpredictable psychopath with a clearly personal motivation which he's prepared to die for. He's flamboyant and over the top and makes a point of telling Bond he makes his own missions. He was so clearly intended to be his own thing and a one off. And yet the writers and Mendes thought "yes, this guy fits perfectly into the concept of a secret organised crime syndicate" even though that basically represents the opposite of what the character was.

    It was stupid imo and it's the only thing I really hate about SP. It annoys me even more because of how pointless it is: SF had already made its mark on the Craig era with the destruction of the MI6 building and M's death. There was already plenty of continuity with that film without making Silva part of Spectre too.

    I could buy something like Blofeld using Silva as a pawn, using Spectre to sell him guns, mercenaries, etc, so that he can cause chaos and indirectly help push Nine Eyes through. But Silva being a Spectre agent (hence the ring), and therefore his insane, convoluted, completely illogical revenge plan being a Spectre scheme? Weakens the film, the character of Silva and the character of Blofeld (makes him look stupid) imo.
  • 007Blofeld007Blofeld In the freedom of the West.
    Posts: 3,126
    Dennison wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    007Blofeld wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    007Blofeld wrote: »
    I could really care less at this point now lets just move on and use Blofeld and spectre in a different way then spectre and all will be good even though I liked spectre they just need a new bond and new start

    They don't need SPECTRE or Blofeld going forward.

    Well they didn't bring them back for no reason and definitely not just one film in the Craig era they are in for the long haul past Craig. It would be foolish of them only being in one film.

    Well, I don't think many people would find it a stretch to say that 'bringing them back for no reason' is exactly what they did. It's another case of, just because the could, they didn't stop to think if they should. The logical move would've been to hold back and use them as a unique selling point going into the next actors tenure - making sure they nail it. For me, that is more problematic now.

    They can feasibly bring back Waltz's Blofeld for a denouement with Craig. I don't think they should use YOLT wholesale as others are suggesting, but the Blofeld of the novel (and the organisation) is a spent force and he himself fruitcake. This is a viable way to continue. Howver, beyond (and even including that) Spectre as an organisation do not have the gravitas nor appeal to serve as a credible threat going forward imo. They'd need seriously retooling, which I would leave until the next incumbent but one, if at all.

    However, for me, it's absolutely clear to see that the general audience (and I include myself in this) favour a 'villain of the week' scenario. From 73' through 2015', that's over 40 years, Bond survived on a diet of eclectic, individual villains. It's key to what keeps Bond ticking. It is no surprise to me that CR and SF have been the clear standouts in this era. There's nothing more exciting, in my mind, than seeing what nefarious force they concoct for the new adventure. Silva came through on that score, as (unsurprisingly) did Le Chiffre.

    I have to agree, Blofeld doesn't seem to work on screen. At any rate they've never really come close making him work. It's telling when the best Blofeld appearances are in FRWL and TB when he's in relatively few scenes and we only hear his voice and see his hands.

    YOLT - doesn't live up to what you're expecting after FRWL and TB - the expected menace isn't there
    OHMSS - best incarnation
    DAF - Blofeld in drag?! Charles 'it's a jump to the left' Gray?!
    FYEO - does that even count?
    SP - I'm a jealous 'brother'

    Its not that he doesn't do good on screen he just hasn't been put on screen properly
  • Posts: 12,462
    OHMSS Blofeld is easily my favorite one. The FRWL and TB ones are good too. YOLT's and SP's I think are decent but flawed Blofelds. DAF's and FYEO's are the weakest.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2017 Posts: 23,883
    bondjames wrote: »
    Silva is one of the best.
    Milovy wrote: »
    But then the Craig era had the opposite issue; a villain with a clear personal motivation (Silva) was shoehorned in and it didn't quite work.
    Didn't quite work - why's that, would you say?

    I didn't mean Silva himself, he was brilliant and one of my favourite villains. What I meant was the retconning of him into Spectre didn't really work. It just came across as so contrived to me: Silva is an unpredictable psychopath with a clearly personal motivation which he's prepared to die for. He's flamboyant and over the top and makes a point of telling Bond he makes his own missions. He was so clearly intended to be his own thing and a one off. And yet the writers and Mendes thought "yes, this guy fits perfectly into the concept of a secret organised crime syndicate" even though that basically represents the opposite of what the character was.

    It was stupid imo and it's the only thing I really hate about SP. It annoys me even more because of how pointless it is: SF had already made its mark on the Craig era with the destruction of the MI6 building and M's death. There was already plenty of continuity with that film without making Silva part of Spectre too.

    I could buy something like Blofeld using Silva as a pawn, using Spectre to sell him guns, mercenaries, etc, so that he can cause chaos and indirectly help push Nine Eyes through. But Silva being a Spectre agent (hence the ring), and therefore his insane, convoluted, completely illogical revenge plan being a Spectre scheme? Weakens the film, the character of Silva and the character of Blofeld (makes him look stupid) imo.
    This is the 2nd time I'm completely in agreement with you today. I have nothing to add to this post.

    I get round it by just ignoring the idiotic retconn whenever I watch the earlier Craig entries. For me, SP is an alternative universe film. I don't take it seriously. Blofeld died down that chute in FYEO, Silva was his own man, and Quantum is still alive and well.
  • bondjames wrote: »
    I get round it by just ignoring the idiotic retconn whenever I watch the earlier Craig entries. For me, SP is an alternative universe film. I don't take it seriously. Blofeld died down that chute in FYEO, Silva was his own man, and Quantum is still alive and well.

    This is still how I view Skyfall today. I don't consider SPECTRE secretly behind the scenes, pulling all Silva's strings. It's too absurd an idea, and as stated completely at odds with Silva's hyper-emotional, revenge-driven crusade.

    I just hope future entries don't make it even more difficult to simply view Skyfall as Skyfall. (Same goes for CR and QoS.)
  • Posts: 1,031
    007Blofeld wrote: »
    Dennison wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    007Blofeld wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    007Blofeld wrote: »
    I could really care less at this point now lets just move on and use Blofeld and spectre in a different way then spectre and all will be good even though I liked spectre they just need a new bond and new start

    They don't need SPECTRE or Blofeld going forward.

    Well they didn't bring them back for no reason and definitely not just one film in the Craig era they are in for the long haul past Craig. It would be foolish of them only being in one film.

    Well, I don't think many people would find it a stretch to say that 'bringing them back for no reason' is exactly what they did. It's another case of, just because the could, they didn't stop to think if they should. The logical move would've been to hold back and use them as a unique selling point going into the next actors tenure - making sure they nail it. For me, that is more problematic now.

    They can feasibly bring back Waltz's Blofeld for a denouement with Craig. I don't think they should use YOLT wholesale as others are suggesting, but the Blofeld of the novel (and the organisation) is a spent force and he himself fruitcake. This is a viable way to continue. Howver, beyond (and even including that) Spectre as an organisation do not have the gravitas nor appeal to serve as a credible threat going forward imo. They'd need seriously retooling, which I would leave until the next incumbent but one, if at all.

    However, for me, it's absolutely clear to see that the general audience (and I include myself in this) favour a 'villain of the week' scenario. From 73' through 2015', that's over 40 years, Bond survived on a diet of eclectic, individual villains. It's key to what keeps Bond ticking. It is no surprise to me that CR and SF have been the clear standouts in this era. There's nothing more exciting, in my mind, than seeing what nefarious force they concoct for the new adventure. Silva came through on that score, as (unsurprisingly) did Le Chiffre.

    I have to agree, Blofeld doesn't seem to work on screen. At any rate they've never really come close making him work. It's telling when the best Blofeld appearances are in FRWL and TB when he's in relatively few scenes and we only hear his voice and see his hands.

    YOLT - doesn't live up to what you're expecting after FRWL and TB - the expected menace isn't there
    OHMSS - best incarnation
    DAF - Blofeld in drag?! Charles 'it's a jump to the left' Gray?!
    FYEO - does that even count?
    SP - I'm a jealous 'brother'

    Its not that he doesn't do good on screen he just hasn't been put on screen properly

    Yes, that was the point I was making. Thanks for reiterating it.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,277
    FoxRox wrote: »
    OHMSS Blofeld is easily my favorite one. The FRWL and TB ones are good too. YOLT's and SP's I think are decent but flawed Blofelds. DAF's and FYEO's are the weakest.

    It's unfair to compare the hidden Blofelds with the feature-length performances of Blofeld. I mean, even Pleasance could be edited as menacing with two minutes of screen time and another actor's voice.

    The irony is that CR and QoS nicely built up the threat of Quantum just as DN-FRWL-TB did of SPECTRE, but both YOLT and SP ruined the main reveal of Blofeld. Perhaps the character is best left in the shadows, even in Bond 25.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    echo wrote: »
    Perhaps the character is best left in the shadows, even in Bond 25.
    The character needs a bullet in the head more than anything. Unfortunately, Craig didn't oblige in SP. Damn shame.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    Peter Wyngarde should have been Blofeld.
  • QuantumOrganizationQuantumOrganization We have people everywhere
    Posts: 1,187
    Really wish they would go with some original villains instead of piggy backing off of the old generation's stuff.
  • edited June 2017 Posts: 17,740
    Peter Wyngarde should have been Blofeld.
    A very stylish Blofeld as well!
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