No Time To Die: Production Diary

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Comments

  • edited August 2017 Posts: 11,425
    It is text, and text can have subtext...?
    I didn't say it was subtext, I said it had subtext.

    You said it 'had cool subtext' when it actually had nothing of the sort.

    The 'Dead Are Alive' subtitle was more student film level of layered on subtext for those too thick to notice it in the actual film frankly. Terrible and just like SF Mendes' delusions of grandeur are more important than giving us an unmolested GB.

    Mendes doesn't do subtext. He just slaps you round the face with his 'message'. Hence the absurdly overrated S.P.E.L.L.I.N.G. it out Tennyson poem in SF.

    "Doh! So THAT'S what it's all about?!"

    Student filmmaking at its finest.
  • Posts: 1,162
    Getafix wrote: »
    It is text, and text can have subtext...?
    I didn't say it was subtext, I said it had subtext.

    You said it 'had cool subtext' when it actually had nothing of the sort.

    The 'Dead Are Alive' subtitle was more student film level of layered on subtext for those too thick to notice it in the actual film frankly. Terrible and just like SF Mendes' delusions of grandeur are more important than giving us an unmolested GB.

    Mendes doesn't do subtext. He just slaps you round the face with his 'message'. Hence the absurdly overrated S.P.E.L.L.I.N.G. it out Tennyson poem in SF.

    "Doh! So THAT'S what it's all about?!"

    Student filmmaking at its finest.

    That sums up Mendes' MO quite nicely.
  • JeffreyJeffrey The Netherlands
    Posts: 308
    I hope for Bond 25 that bright colours return. SF was pretty dark in colour as is SP. SP also has this yellow glow on a lot of scenes. Just imagine how much colour the Mexico scenes could have brought to the screen.

    I also hope there is less use of CGI. The obvious greenscreen usage in the PTS in SP, during the helicopter fight, takes me a little out of the film.

    @Getafix I always liked that Tennyson-scene, even if is a little on the nose. I remember getting goosebumps in the cinema when I first saw it. Probably because the build up, music and the confrontation between M and Silva.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,395
    I agree jeffrey, almost everything in SF and SP is shot at night or on a very gloomy, grey day. Apart from the PTS sequence of both films, that is.
  • Posts: 4,619
    Getafix wrote: »
    "Doh! So THAT'S what it's all about?!"
    At least Skyfall was about something, which can't be said about 90% of Bond films. Don't get me wrong I am more than happy with a great Bond movie that simply entertains (DN, TB, GE), but it's nice to have a Bond movie every once in a while that strives to do more than just entertain.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    What was Skyfall about again?
  • SeanCraigSeanCraig Germany
    edited August 2017 Posts: 732
    I agree about Skyfall. As much as many seem it to be overrated or rubbish it just reaches me and entertains me at the very same time. The elevator scene, the fight in the "mirror room", the "enjoying death" scenes, the poem, the Q scene in the museum ... I just find it all very cool and it's just awesome. The mommy context is something I understand people dislike, but it worked for me and I don't mind. It did not work at all in SP ... to me they just wanted to repeat SF's success and I guess Mendes indeed had nothing more to add to Bond after SF.

    I don't mind a colourful adventure for B25 as a contrast ... but I like and liked SFs look and feel a lot. It was new and like CR something that has not been done in the series so far and a valueable addition ... imho.
  • Posts: 11,119
    Getafix wrote: »
    It is text, and text can have subtext...?
    I didn't say it was subtext, I said it had subtext.

    You said it 'had cool subtext' when it actually had nothing of the sort.

    The 'Dead Are Alive' subtitle was more student film level of layered on subtext for those too thick to notice it in the actual film frankly. Terrible and just like SF Mendes' delusions of grandeur are more important than giving us an unmolested GB.

    Mendes doesn't do subtext. He just slaps you round the face with his 'message'. Hence the absurdly overrated S.P.E.L.L.I.N.G. it out Tennyson poem in SF.

    "Doh! So THAT'S what it's all about?!"

    Student filmmaking at its finest.

    Ufff, be careful now @Getafix ;-).I'm quite the fan of Sam Mendes. And none of his films to me are 'cheap student projects'. I certainly don't think he slaps you around your ears with his message. I always think his themes and messages are subtle at most. And perhaps, if you dig a bit deeper, you can discover the rich beauty of his subtle messages. Like this one:

    https://www.mi6community.com/discussion/16671/the-kennedys-james-bond#latest

    And that to me make the Mendes Bond films rather special and unique within the franchise. Perhaps as unique as Campbell's CR or Peter Hunt's OHMSS. Time will tell, but I guess at least SF will turn into one of those unexpected 'Bond evergreens'.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    What was Skyfall about again?

    An ex-agent trying to bring down 'M'.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    SeanCraig wrote: »
    I agree about Skyfall. As much as many seem it to be overrated or rubbish it just reaches me and entertains me at the very same time. The elevator scene, the fight in the "mirror room", the "enjoying death" scenes, the poem, the Q scene in the museum ... I just find it all very cool and it's just awesome. The mommy context is something I understand people dislike, but it worked for me and I don't mind. It did not work at all in SP ... to me they just wanted to repeat SF's success and I guess Mendes indeed had nothing more to add to Bond after SF.

    I don't mind a colourful adventure for B25 as a contrast ... but I like and liked SFs look and feel a lot. It was new and like CR something that has not been done in the series so far and a valueable addition ... imho.
    Completely agreed. It certainly felt very fresh to me.
  • BMW_with_missilesBMW_with_missiles All the usual refinements.
    edited August 2017 Posts: 3,000
    RC7 wrote: »
    What was Skyfall about again?

    An ex-agent trying to bring down 'M'.

    And Bond failing to stop him. Another wonderful anticlimax brought to us by Mendes.
  • Posts: 11,119
    RC7 wrote: »
    What was Skyfall about again?

    An ex-agent trying to bring down 'M'.

    And Bond failing to stop him. Another wonderful anticlimax brought to us by Mendes.

    Or a given fact that today's terrorism is very hard to prevent? Sorry, but to me it's boring if we Always have a Hollywood ending in which person A saves person B, beds person B, and with it saves the planet. I mean, Mendes understood that, in order to give SF a slightly different and more Original feel, you have to reshake certain elements of the franchise.

    So again, I completely disagree with those Bond fans who want to have simple endings. For goodness sake, even Ian Fleming didn't do simple endings with his novels.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    edited August 2017 Posts: 15,423
    RC7 wrote: »
    What was Skyfall about again?

    An ex-agent trying to bring down 'M'.

    And Bond failing to stop him. Another wonderful anticlimax brought to us by Mendes.
    Not to mention, losing a MI6 NOC list to the hands of a cyber terrorist, etc. All the balderdash to take down M in style (in Silva's accordance). There's a reason for why I went insane in a short period of time when I saw millions praising this film. :))
  • Posts: 11,119
    RC7 wrote: »
    What was Skyfall about again?

    An ex-agent trying to bring down 'M'.

    And Bond failing to stop him. Another wonderful anticlimax brought to us by Mendes.
    Not to mention, losing a MI6 NOC list to the hands of a cyber terrorist, etc. All the balderdash to take down M in style (in Silva's accordance). There's a reason for why I went insane in a short period of time when I saw millions praising this film. :))

    Yeah, and Bond throwing away his McGuffin, the A.TA.C. in FYEO, is considered professional too eh.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    edited August 2017 Posts: 15,423
    RC7 wrote: »
    What was Skyfall about again?

    An ex-agent trying to bring down 'M'.

    And Bond failing to stop him. Another wonderful anticlimax brought to us by Mendes.
    Not to mention, losing a MI6 NOC list to the hands of a cyber terrorist, etc. All the balderdash to take down M in style (in Silva's accordance). There's a reason for why I went insane in a short period of time when I saw millions praising this film. :))

    Yeah, and Bond throwing away his McGuffin, the A.TA.C. in FYEO, is considered professional too eh.
    Considering he was in position to bargain with the enemy (in this case, a country who can lose everything, and not a terrorist cell that acts reckless with no diplomacy and red tapes) when they were going to shoot him on sight, he did what any sane man would've done. "You don't have it, I don't have it." By a wide margin that's not the same thing.
  • Posts: 11,119
    RC7 wrote: »
    What was Skyfall about again?

    An ex-agent trying to bring down 'M'.

    And Bond failing to stop him. Another wonderful anticlimax brought to us by Mendes.
    Not to mention, losing a MI6 NOC list to the hands of a cyber terrorist, etc. All the balderdash to take down M in style (in Silva's accordance). There's a reason for why I went insane in a short period of time when I saw millions praising this film. :))

    Yeah, and Bond throwing away his McGuffin, the A.TA.C. in FYEO, is considered professional too eh.
    Considering he was in position to bargain with the enemy when they were going to shoot him on sight, he did what any sane man would've done. "You don't have it, I don't have it." By a wide margin that's not the same thing.

    Still, there are other Bond films in which the loss of a McGuffin is the driving force for the rest of the narrative. It....simply happens......loosing a McGuffin. To make that a rime point of criticism for the total failure of SF is simply grotesque.
  • BMW_with_missilesBMW_with_missiles All the usual refinements.
    Posts: 3,000
    RC7 wrote: »
    What was Skyfall about again?

    An ex-agent trying to bring down 'M'.

    And Bond failing to stop him. Another wonderful anticlimax brought to us by Mendes.

    Or a given fact that today's terrorism is very hard to prevent?

    Bond is meant to be escapism, not realism.
    Sorry, but to me it's boring if we Always have a Hollywood ending in which person A saves person B, beds person B, and with it saves the planet. I mean, Mendes understood that, in order to give SF a slightly different and more Original feel, you have to reshake certain elements of the franchise.

    So again, I completely disagree with those Bond fans who want to have simple endings. For goodness sake, even Ian Fleming didn't do simple endings with his novels.

    I don't ask for simple endings, but I do ask for good, climactic, satisfying endings. Mendes didn't deliver that, though I will say that SF's ending is considerably better than SP's.
    RC7 wrote: »
    What was Skyfall about again?

    An ex-agent trying to bring down 'M'.

    And Bond failing to stop him. Another wonderful anticlimax brought to us by Mendes.
    Not to mention, losing a MI6 NOC list to the hands of a cyber terrorist, etc. All the balderdash to take down M in style (in Silva's accordance). There's a reason for why I went insane in a short period of time when I saw millions praising this film. :))

    I just realized something;

    In CR, Bond fails to bring in Le Chiffre, fails to protect Vesper, and captures Mr. White only to have him escape in QOS.

    In SF, Bond fails to stop Silva from killing M.

    In SP, Bond fails, by (poor) choice, to kill Blofeld.

    What has Craig Bond actually succeeded in doing in the grand scheme? He killed Green, so the Bolivians can sleep easy knowing their water is safe, and he stopped nine-eyes, but not without the help of the Scooby-gang.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    edited August 2017 Posts: 15,423
    RC7 wrote: »
    What was Skyfall about again?

    An ex-agent trying to bring down 'M'.

    And Bond failing to stop him. Another wonderful anticlimax brought to us by Mendes.
    Not to mention, losing a MI6 NOC list to the hands of a cyber terrorist, etc. All the balderdash to take down M in style (in Silva's accordance). There's a reason for why I went insane in a short period of time when I saw millions praising this film. :))

    Yeah, and Bond throwing away his McGuffin, the A.TA.C. in FYEO, is considered professional too eh.
    Considering he was in position to bargain with the enemy when they were going to shoot him on sight, he did what any sane man would've done. "You don't have it, I don't have it." By a wide margin that's not the same thing.

    Still, there are other Bond films in which the loss of a McGuffin is the driving force for the rest of the narrative. It....simply happens......loosing a McGuffin. To make that a rime point of criticism for the total failure of SF is simply grotesque.
    Except, M is not just a McGuffin and the ATAC didn't fall into the enemy hands who'd end up using it to remotely have the British submarines target their own cities. M here is a prominent player in the British government and part of the leadership. Wasn't Bond's mission to protect her overall? He failed. His primary mission wasn't to kill Silva, no questions asked. He was to eliminate him to neutralize the threat. After M's death, what good did Silva's own death do to anybody? The head of the secret service is taken out. The terrorists have won and successfully attacked Britain, taking one of the pearls off the crown. M is not just a top secret weapon in the hands of a government like ATAC, she also is a political figure. Don't you think her death would've stunned and sparked an outrage within the public? Something that Bond is assigned over the course of the whole series to prevent?
  • Posts: 4,619
    What was Skyfall about again?
    I thought it was obvious. The passage of time, ageing and rebirth, Britain's place in the world today.
  • BMW_with_missilesBMW_with_missiles All the usual refinements.
    Posts: 3,000
    RC7 wrote: »
    What was Skyfall about again?

    An ex-agent trying to bring down 'M'.

    And Bond failing to stop him. Another wonderful anticlimax brought to us by Mendes.
    Not to mention, losing a MI6 NOC list to the hands of a cyber terrorist, etc. All the balderdash to take down M in style (in Silva's accordance). There's a reason for why I went insane in a short period of time when I saw millions praising this film. :))

    Yeah, and Bond throwing away his McGuffin, the A.TA.C. in FYEO, is considered professional too eh.
    Considering he was in position to bargain with the enemy when they were going to shoot him on sight, he did what any sane man would've done. "You don't have it, I don't have it." By a wide margin that's not the same thing.

    Still, there are other Bond films in which the loss of a McGuffin is the driving force for the rest of the narrative. It....simply happens......loosing a McGuffin. To make that a rime point of criticism for the total failure of SF is simply grotesque.
    Except, M is not just a McGuffin and the ATAC didn't fall into the enemy hands who'd end up using it to remotely have the British submarines target their own cities. M here is a prominent player in the British government and part of the leadership. Wasn't Bond's mission to protect her overall? He failed. His primary mission wasn't to kill Silva, no questions asked. He was to eliminate him to neutralize the threat. After M's death, what good did Silva's own death do to anybody? The head of the secret service is taken out. The terrorists have won and successfully attacked Britain, taking one of the pearls off the crown. M is not just a top secret weapon in the hands of a government like ATAC, she also is a political figure. Don't you think her death would've stunned and sparked an outrage within the public? Something that Bond is assigned over the course of the whole series to prevent?

    Exactly. Bond succeeded in preventing the enemy from having control of the ATAC; he won. In SF, Bond's mission was to stop Silva from killing M; he failed. Silva killed M. The bad guy succeeded in his goal. SF is the only Bond movie where the villain wins.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,785
    RC7 wrote: »
    And Bond failing to stop him. Another wonderful anticlimax brought to us by Mendes.
    Fleming's WWII experience was that a price is paid to fight the bad guys, and that's an important part of Bond's world. But may not play well with some of the modern audience. It did work for ON HER MAJESTY'S SECRET SERVICE. And CASINO ROYALE.
    I like the introduction of poetry into Bond films, from Flecker in ON HER MAJESTY'S SECRET SERVICE to Housman in DIE ANOTHER DAY to Tennyson in SKYFALL. Rather than cheap, as executed it's classy and adds to what's going on. Improves the scene and or film.
    The text on screen opening SPECTRE combined with the visuals and drums to set the tone, very well done introduction and sequence. I could take it or leave it--it's better with it.
    But resist, resist, resist.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    RC7 wrote: »
    What was Skyfall about again?

    An ex-agent trying to bring down 'M'.

    And Bond failing to stop him. Another wonderful anticlimax brought to us by Mendes.
    Not to mention, losing a MI6 NOC list to the hands of a cyber terrorist, etc. All the balderdash to take down M in style (in Silva's accordance). There's a reason for why I went insane in a short period of time when I saw millions praising this film. :))

    Yeah, and Bond throwing away his McGuffin, the A.TA.C. in FYEO, is considered professional too eh.
    Considering he was in position to bargain with the enemy when they were going to shoot him on sight, he did what any sane man would've done. "You don't have it, I don't have it." By a wide margin that's not the same thing.

    Still, there are other Bond films in which the loss of a McGuffin is the driving force for the rest of the narrative. It....simply happens......loosing a McGuffin. To make that a rime point of criticism for the total failure of SF is simply grotesque.
    Except, M is not just a McGuffin and the ATAC didn't fall into the enemy hands who'd end up using it to remotely have the British submarines target their own cities. M here is a prominent player in the British government and part of the leadership. Wasn't Bond's mission to protect her overall? He failed. His primary mission wasn't to kill Silva, no questions asked. He was to eliminate him to neutralize the threat. After M's death, what good did Silva's own death do to anybody? The head of the secret service is taken out. The terrorists have won and successfully attacked Britain, taking one of the pearls off the crown. M is not just a top secret weapon in the hands of a government like ATAC, she also is a political figure. Don't you think her death would've stunned and sparked an outrage within the public? Something that Bond is assigned over the course of the whole series to prevent?

    Exactly. Bond succeeded in preventing the enemy from having control of the ATAC; he won. In SF, Bond's mission was to stop Silva from killing M; he failed. Silva killed M. The bad guy succeeded in his goal. SF is the only Bond movie where the villain wins.
    That's why I will never love that movie. Well... one of the reasons, anyway... I haven't mentioned the seemingly-purposeful incompetence every single character portrays in it, yet.
  • RC7RC7
    edited August 2017 Posts: 10,512
    RC7 wrote: »
    What was Skyfall about again?

    An ex-agent trying to bring down 'M'.

    And Bond failing to stop him. Another wonderful anticlimax brought to us by Mendes.
    Not to mention, losing a MI6 NOC list to the hands of a cyber terrorist, etc. All the balderdash to take down M in style (in Silva's accordance). There's a reason for why I went insane in a short period of time when I saw millions praising this film. :))

    Yeah, and Bond throwing away his McGuffin, the A.TA.C. in FYEO, is considered professional too eh.
    Considering he was in position to bargain with the enemy when they were going to shoot him on sight, he did what any sane man would've done. "You don't have it, I don't have it." By a wide margin that's not the same thing.

    Still, there are other Bond films in which the loss of a McGuffin is the driving force for the rest of the narrative. It....simply happens......loosing a McGuffin. To make that a rime point of criticism for the total failure of SF is simply grotesque.
    Except, M is not just a McGuffin and the ATAC didn't fall into the enemy hands who'd end up using it to remotely have the British submarines target their own cities. M here is a prominent player in the British government and part of the leadership. Wasn't Bond's mission to protect her overall? He failed. His primary mission wasn't to kill Silva, no questions asked. He was to eliminate him to neutralize the threat. After M's death, what good did Silva's own death do to anybody? The head of the secret service is taken out. The terrorists have won and successfully attacked Britain, taking one of the pearls off the crown. M is not just a top secret weapon in the hands of a government like ATAC, she also is a political figure. Don't you think her death would've stunned and sparked an outrage within the public? Something that Bond is assigned over the course of the whole series to prevent?

    Exactly. Bond succeeded in preventing the enemy from having control of the ATAC; he won. In SF, Bond's mission was to stop Silva from killing M; he failed. Silva killed M. The bad guy succeeded in his goal. SF is the only Bond movie where the villain wins.
    That's why I will never love that movie. Well... one of the reasons, anyway... I haven't mentioned the seemingly-purposeful incompetence every single character portrays in it, yet.

    But when Silva dies he has no idea 'M' is about die too - so he doesn't win. There's some nuance to the whole affair - it's never black and white. That's what makes it such a distinctive Bond film. Bond's mission wasn't to save 'M', either, it was to capture/kill Silva. 'M' knew that hence why she agrees to be bait.
  • BMW_with_missilesBMW_with_missiles All the usual refinements.
    Posts: 3,000
    Fleming's WWII experience was that a price is paid to fight the bad guys, and that's an important part of Bond's world. But may not play well with some of the modern audience. It did work for ON HER MAJESTY'S SECRET SERVICE. And CASINO ROYALE. I like the introduction of poetry into Bond films, from Flecker in ON HER MAJESTY'S SECRET SERVICE to Housman in DIE ANOTHER DAY to Tennyson in SKYFALL. Rather than cheap, as executed it's classy and adds to what's going on. Improves the scene and or film.
    The text on screen opening SPECTRE combined with the visuals and drums to set the tone, very well done introduction and sequence. I could take it or leave it--it's better with it.
    But resist, resist, resist.

    OHMSS and CR are fantastic, well executed films. They have nontraditional endings and yet are still satisfying experiences. These are artistic Bond films done right. SF and SP are cheap, unsatisfying films with anticlimactic endings, where any attempts at artistic flair come off as pretentious due to the ham-fisted manner in which Mendes went about it (i.e. "The dead are alive."). That said, I take no issue with the poetry, and I greatly enjoyed the Tennyson scene in SF. My main issues with these films is not their snobbish attempts at artistry, but their anticlimactic endings and plots that see Bond essentially being pointless (failing to save M, not killing Blofeld).
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    edited August 2017 Posts: 15,423
    RC7 wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    What was Skyfall about again?

    An ex-agent trying to bring down 'M'.

    And Bond failing to stop him. Another wonderful anticlimax brought to us by Mendes.
    Not to mention, losing a MI6 NOC list to the hands of a cyber terrorist, etc. All the balderdash to take down M in style (in Silva's accordance). There's a reason for why I went insane in a short period of time when I saw millions praising this film. :))

    Yeah, and Bond throwing away his McGuffin, the A.TA.C. in FYEO, is considered professional too eh.
    Considering he was in position to bargain with the enemy when they were going to shoot him on sight, he did what any sane man would've done. "You don't have it, I don't have it." By a wide margin that's not the same thing.

    Still, there are other Bond films in which the loss of a McGuffin is the driving force for the rest of the narrative. It....simply happens......loosing a McGuffin. To make that a rime point of criticism for the total failure of SF is simply grotesque.
    Except, M is not just a McGuffin and the ATAC didn't fall into the enemy hands who'd end up using it to remotely have the British submarines target their own cities. M here is a prominent player in the British government and part of the leadership. Wasn't Bond's mission to protect her overall? He failed. His primary mission wasn't to kill Silva, no questions asked. He was to eliminate him to neutralize the threat. After M's death, what good did Silva's own death do to anybody? The head of the secret service is taken out. The terrorists have won and successfully attacked Britain, taking one of the pearls off the crown. M is not just a top secret weapon in the hands of a government like ATAC, she also is a political figure. Don't you think her death would've stunned and sparked an outrage within the public? Something that Bond is assigned over the course of the whole series to prevent?

    Exactly. Bond succeeded in preventing the enemy from having control of the ATAC; he won. In SF, Bond's mission was to stop Silva from killing M; he failed. Silva killed M. The bad guy succeeded in his goal. SF is the only Bond movie where the villain wins.
    That's why I will never love that movie. Well... one of the reasons, anyway... I haven't mentioned the seemingly-purposeful incompetence every single character portrays in it, yet.

    But when Silva dies he has no idea 'M' is about die too - so he doesn't win. There's some nuance to the whole affair - it's never black and white. That's what makes it such a distinctive Bond film. Bond's mission wasn't to save 'M', either, it was to capture/kill Silva. 'M' knew that hence why she agrees to be bait.
    True, his mission wasn't to save M. It was to prevent a chaos the villain was preparing. I don't find it relevant whether Silva was alive or not to witness his plan succeeded, his plan simply did. Britain lost an important political figure and not only just a political figure, but the head of the secret service. And with her death, Bond didn't prevent Britain to appear weak in that turnout. Isn't his job to ensure that doesn't happen? It did. A one man in a believable/realistically-portrayed universe (as opposed to some of the previous ones) to eliminate a whole army and single out Silva and capture him alone in an abandoned lodge? With no back-up? I don't know how anybody would agree to be the bait to that. It's dead obvious Silva wasn't going to come there alone.

    In a nutshell, Bond failed, Britain appeared weak, the enemy won and successfully humiliated MI-6. Publicly I may add. That's as bad as it gets. I've no idea how anybody could cheer for that.
  • BMW_with_missilesBMW_with_missiles All the usual refinements.
    edited August 2017 Posts: 3,000
    RC7 wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    What was Skyfall about again?

    An ex-agent trying to bring down 'M'.

    And Bond failing to stop him. Another wonderful anticlimax brought to us by Mendes.
    Not to mention, losing a MI6 NOC list to the hands of a cyber terrorist, etc. All the balderdash to take down M in style (in Silva's accordance). There's a reason for why I went insane in a short period of time when I saw millions praising this film. :))

    Yeah, and Bond throwing away his McGuffin, the A.TA.C. in FYEO, is considered professional too eh.
    Considering he was in position to bargain with the enemy when they were going to shoot him on sight, he did what any sane man would've done. "You don't have it, I don't have it." By a wide margin that's not the same thing.

    Still, there are other Bond films in which the loss of a McGuffin is the driving force for the rest of the narrative. It....simply happens......loosing a McGuffin. To make that a rime point of criticism for the total failure of SF is simply grotesque.
    Except, M is not just a McGuffin and the ATAC didn't fall into the enemy hands who'd end up using it to remotely have the British submarines target their own cities. M here is a prominent player in the British government and part of the leadership. Wasn't Bond's mission to protect her overall? He failed. His primary mission wasn't to kill Silva, no questions asked. He was to eliminate him to neutralize the threat. After M's death, what good did Silva's own death do to anybody? The head of the secret service is taken out. The terrorists have won and successfully attacked Britain, taking one of the pearls off the crown. M is not just a top secret weapon in the hands of a government like ATAC, she also is a political figure. Don't you think her death would've stunned and sparked an outrage within the public? Something that Bond is assigned over the course of the whole series to prevent?

    Exactly. Bond succeeded in preventing the enemy from having control of the ATAC; he won. In SF, Bond's mission was to stop Silva from killing M; he failed. Silva killed M. The bad guy succeeded in his goal. SF is the only Bond movie where the villain wins.
    That's why I will never love that movie. Well... one of the reasons, anyway... I haven't mentioned the seemingly-purposeful incompetence every single character portrays in it, yet.

    But when Silva dies he has no idea 'M' is about die too - so he doesn't win. There's some nuance to the whole affair - it's never black and white. That's what makes it such a distinctive Bond film. Bond's mission wasn't to save 'M', either, it was to capture/kill Silva. 'M' knew that hence why she agrees to be bait.

    Regardless of whether or not Siva got to die knowing that he succeeded, he still succeeded; M died. I doubt Silva cared about living or dying; he was a terrorist, he succeeded in committing terrorist acts, and killed his target. And you can hardly call the events in Skyfall a victory for Bond, with the villain he intended to stop having already achieved all of his terrorist goals before dying.
    RC7 wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    What was Skyfall about again?

    An ex-agent trying to bring down 'M'.

    And Bond failing to stop him. Another wonderful anticlimax brought to us by Mendes.
    Not to mention, losing a MI6 NOC list to the hands of a cyber terrorist, etc. All the balderdash to take down M in style (in Silva's accordance). There's a reason for why I went insane in a short period of time when I saw millions praising this film. :))

    Yeah, and Bond throwing away his McGuffin, the A.TA.C. in FYEO, is considered professional too eh.
    Considering he was in position to bargain with the enemy when they were going to shoot him on sight, he did what any sane man would've done. "You don't have it, I don't have it." By a wide margin that's not the same thing.

    Still, there are other Bond films in which the loss of a McGuffin is the driving force for the rest of the narrative. It....simply happens......loosing a McGuffin. To make that a rime point of criticism for the total failure of SF is simply grotesque.
    Except, M is not just a McGuffin and the ATAC didn't fall into the enemy hands who'd end up using it to remotely have the British submarines target their own cities. M here is a prominent player in the British government and part of the leadership. Wasn't Bond's mission to protect her overall? He failed. His primary mission wasn't to kill Silva, no questions asked. He was to eliminate him to neutralize the threat. After M's death, what good did Silva's own death do to anybody? The head of the secret service is taken out. The terrorists have won and successfully attacked Britain, taking one of the pearls off the crown. M is not just a top secret weapon in the hands of a government like ATAC, she also is a political figure. Don't you think her death would've stunned and sparked an outrage within the public? Something that Bond is assigned over the course of the whole series to prevent?

    Exactly. Bond succeeded in preventing the enemy from having control of the ATAC; he won. In SF, Bond's mission was to stop Silva from killing M; he failed. Silva killed M. The bad guy succeeded in his goal. SF is the only Bond movie where the villain wins.
    That's why I will never love that movie. Well... one of the reasons, anyway... I haven't mentioned the seemingly-purposeful incompetence every single character portrays in it, yet.

    But when Silva dies he has no idea 'M' is about die too - so he doesn't win. There's some nuance to the whole affair - it's never black and white. That's what makes it such a distinctive Bond film. Bond's mission wasn't to save 'M', either, it was to capture/kill Silva. 'M' knew that hence why she agrees to be bait.
    True, his mission wasn't to save M. It was to prevent a chaos the villain was preparing. I don't find it relevant whether Silva was alive or not to witness his plan succeeded, his plan simply did. Britain lost an important political figure and not only just a political figure, but the head of the secret service. And with her death, Bond didn't prevent Britain to appear weak in that turnout. Isn't his job to ensure that doesn't happen? It did. A one man in a believable/realistically-portrayed universe (as opposed to some of the previous ones) to eliminate a whole army and single out Silva and capture him alone in an abandoned lodge? With no back-up? I don't know how anybody would agree to be the bait to that. It's dead obvious Silva wasn't going to come there alone.

    In a nutshell, Bond failed, Britain appeared weak, the enemy won and successfully humiliated MI-6. Publicly I may add. That's as bad as it gets. I've no idea how anybody could cheer for that.

    Missed this as I was typing my response. Very well said. A better more detailed explanation than mine.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,785
    The story set up M as having stayed around long enough for her hard but sound decisions to haunt her. So her death served as redemption, there was really no going back to her desk at MI6, her husband had passed, no salad days in retirement for her. As Silva said for the wrong reason, it had to be this way.
    An alternative would be Dench M doesn't appear at at all, Fienes M shows up, and the personnel change is mentioned in the dialogue. THAT would lazy and a missed opportunity in comparison.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Well Her Majesty's Government was saved from paying her no doubt hefty pension, so there's some benefit.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    Or the alternative was simply not having M be the subject for the whole thing. The alternative would have been a whole different story. But, there you go. To resonate with the current audience, who seem to love misery and whatnot, Bond in this story was meant to fail right from the start and for the villain to win. And the excuse to that is "Bond is a human. We all fail every now and then". Well, here's the thing. I don't watch a Bond film to see him fail at the end of the whole thing. He may fail at the beginning, in the PTS or something, or perhaps in the first act, then regroup and take down the villain in a victorious manner the way David defeated Goliath. That's what I want to see in a Bond film.
    Missed this as I was typing my response. Very well said. A better more detailed explanation than mine.
    Like I said, @BMW_with_missiles, you've got to be either my estranged twin or my doppleganger. :D
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    Or the alternative was simply not having M be the subject for the whole thing. The alternative would have been a whole different story. But, there you go. To resonate with the current audience, who seem to love misery and whatnot, Bond in this story was meant to fail right from the start and for the villain to win. And the excuse to that is "Bond is a human. We all fail every now and then". Well, here's the thing. I don't watch a Bond film to see him fail at the end of the whole thing. He may fail at the beginning, in the PTS or something, or perhaps in the first act, then regroup and take down the villain in a victorious manner the way David defeated Goliath. That's what I want to see in a Bond film.
    Missed this as I was typing my response. Very well said. A better more detailed explanation than mine.
    Like I said, @BMW_with_missiles, you've got to be either my estranged twin or my doppleganger. :D

    So what you're basically saying is it doesn't chime with what you personally want in a Bond film. That's fine, but it doesn't mean it's bad.
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