Why criticism on "Skyfall" never truly gained ground (but flourishes in small fan circles)

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  • That meeting IS mesmerizing, indeed one of the best scenes not only in the film but in the series history. It's the stuff that happens as soon as they get to Tangiers and after that submarines the story, in my opinion.
  • Posts: 1,680
    The only the low points in SP were when they first get to L'American & the safe house meet. Everything else was good or great.
  • Posts: 4,325
    Not yet, no.

    Spectre is good.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    edited March 2016 Posts: 4,583
    patb wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    Sark wrote: »
    SF's plot holes are not nearly as large as those in most Bond films. In fact, I would argue that the film's perceived plot holes are intentional. Silva was a master at getting people to think what he wanted them to think. It succeeded with the people on the island; it succeeded with Q; and it succeeded with the audience.

    Examples, please. You said "most" Bond films, so I guess you have at least 13 bigger plot holes in mind.

    Most Bond films deal with secret evil organizations, the composition of which is next to impossible. Right? Mind you, this isn't a complaint; merely an observation. The entire series is based on preposterous ideas and plots. But who cares? It's Bond.

    This why criticisms of SF's perceived plot holes are nonsensical.

    Regardless, while Silva does have henchmen, it is a small group...much easier to believe.



    There is one big and important difference.

    Skyfall takes itself seriously all the way, which is untypical for a Bond movie. If you do that you just can't have that kind of plot holes, they become apparent and distracting.
    In MR, GE or SP nobody would complain about plot holes, because those movies like practically all Bond movies besides Skyfall are fun to watch all the way.

    Very good point, Skyfall wants to be taken seriously and, on that basis, perhaps it is fair that the bar is raised in terms of how the plot works.

    But there's the rub: the plot DOES work. And the only way to know that is to take the film seriously.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    edited March 2016 Posts: 9,020
    What plot?
    It was a cheap knock off from TWINE and GE (Alec)
  • Tuck91 wrote: »
    The only the low points in SP were when they first get to L'American & the safe house meet. Everything else was good or great.

    Was it good when Bond shoots down a helicopter with a pistol?
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Well Bond can do things with his weapon, we mortal men can only dream of. :D
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    That scene would've played better if he used a gun the MI6 boat had stashed away, like an assault rifle. Something that could realistically puncture the helicopter at that range and do damage.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    At least he didn't throw a brick at it ! :)
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    At least he didn't throw a brick at it ! :)
    He could probably pull that off. As we can see from the rest of SP, Bond has superhuman aim.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    :)) Bond did improve his marksmanship scores after Skyfall.
  • Posts: 15,111
    That scene would've played better if he used a gun the MI6 boat had stashed away, like an assault rifle. Something that could realistically puncture the helicopter at that range and do damage.

    That said we have seen in real life a man with a rifle or a gun taking down a helicopter or a plane. A single bullet killed the Red Baron, after all (okay so it killed him and did not touch hos plane, but still, others were taken down by a gun). Bond did a bull's eye. Far fetched, yes, but it happens sometimes.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    It really looked to me like they were just trying to find a way, any way, to wrap it up by that point (the helicopter downing I mean). Sloppy.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Blofeld should have been fighting with his PA over some dynamite, falling
    Back it explodes ........... Oh! Sorry that's been done. ;)
  • Posts: 15,111
    Blofeld should have been fighting with his PA over some dynamite, falling
    Back it explodes ........... Oh! Sorry that's been done. ;)

    It could have been redone.
    bondjames wrote: »
    It really looked to me like they were just trying to find a way, any way, to wrap it up by that point (the helicopter downing I mean). Sloppy.

    I think it also was freely inspired by the end of the novel DAF. What they needed was a bigger gun really.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    As Bond proves, it's not the size, but what you do with it ! :D
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,583
    As Bond proves, it's not the size, but what you do with it ! :D

    I don't think Pam Bouvier would agree.

  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    bondjames wrote: »
    It really looked to me like they were just trying to find a way, any way, to wrap it up by that point (the helicopter downing I mean). Sloppy.

    I am sort of with you here, @bondjames. The problem with Mendes Bond films is that he seems to love helicopter imagery. Whether it's Silva's "Boom Boom" entrance upon Scotland (Apocalypse Now reference?), the explosion and crash of that craft, the SP helicopter tussle or the finale's smash up, it's all a bit too overdone.

    I agree that it feels sloppy. Mendes clearly wanted some way to have Blofeld symbolically fall from grace and crash in the helicopter, injured and in pain on the ground like Ozymandias on that bridge to convey a fallen empire, and the only way he and his team could figure out how to do that is by Bond shooting at the helicopter's weak spot with his PPK. We do see Bond really try over and over to get his shot before succeeding, it's just not really that climactic of an action to be honest. In the history of Bond finales, this doesn't get the heart pumping. And because we opened the film with a helicopter fight, that couldn't be rehashed. But because the helicopter imagery returns for the finale, it feels redundant anyway, making me question if they should've just gone for it regardless, though I can't think of a way to get Bond on the helicopter with Blofeld. Dammit.

    The biggest issue with SP content wise is that it's front-loaded, and heavily so. We get a lot of the big, meaty action in the first half, and then not much in the second. The biggest piece of the film is the one that opens it, so SP puts itself in a weird spot where it peaks literally out of the gate from an action standpoint such that anything beyond that save for the Hinx and Bond train fight feels lesser.

    The biggest problem I personally have with SP's action is how disconnected and anti-visceral it feels. We only really see Bond throw a punch and get his own hands dirty a few times here and there, and these last for only a few seconds. All the rest of the action is vehicular in nature: we get Bond causing chaos in a car, in a plane, on a boat; anything but a bike, really. The issue with this, however, is that we don't really feel any emotive investment in this action. Because we can't even see Bond in the car and plane sections (for the most part) we're disconnected almost entirely from whatever impact his actions could have. In the train fight however, and in every Bond fistfight, we feel the punches because we can see Bond and we latch on to him in those desperate moments of survival. Those visceral, man to man moments were missing in SP, big time. I've never cared for chases or other kinds of vehicular action when a well choreographed fist fight gives you all the raw power you need to feel in a high octane moment.

    SP could have been heavily improved with a more emotional core moment, akin to SF's Tennyson scene, and more in your face and "present" action with Dan like the Hinx fight or QoS's pulse pounding Slate face-off. I like the movie, but I agree that we should see Bond's pain at what Blofeld and SPECTRE have done to him in a more overt fashion, brining it back to my concern about a slightly off emotional core. I can see why some feel Bond doesn't have much of a reaction to the news of Franz being alive and his hand in SPECTRE, and one close-up where 007 realizes the organization's involvement in his past would've been stellar and gone a long way to showing how the awareness troubles him.

    The thing that complicates all this is Blofeld's "author of all your pain" line. I think it was a poor phrase to use because it makes people think that Blofeld was committed solely to dismantling Bond's life, and he set out to do that purposely and without any other interest in the past. Is anyone else bugged by this as much as I am?
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,423
    Once again you've hit the nail of it's proverbial head dear @Brady. For me, at least, the action was good in SP, all be it "front loaded", encompassing of the types of action that we've seen in past Bond movies, be it the slick, humorous car chase in Rome; the brutal beat down in the train and the almost Brosnan era-esque snow chase. Which was something of a thrill to see Craig's Bond partake in all those different scenes.

    The only action scenes that disappointed me, somewhat, was Bond destroying the SPECTRE base, and the maligned helicopter crash.

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited March 2016 Posts: 23,883
    I'm in agreement with your points @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7 . I have mentioned elsewhere that the lack of 'in the moment' visceral action in SP could possibly be on account of Craig's injury complicating filming, and it being far more serious than we have been let to believe. In fact, I really think this is the case.

    Regarding both SP starting out strong and then weakening considerably, and the somewhat 'tacked on' feeling to the action, I think that is very similar to TWINE, a film I criticize for similar reasons. There are tonal variations in SP as well (from serious to somewhat jovial and from tense to somewhat trivial) that may throw some viewers. It certainly threw me during my first watch, but with successive viewings it's gotten much better. That's similar to TWINE as well imho. Do we take it seriously, or not?

    Regarding 'author of all your pain'. Yes, I think that shouldn't have been used, and I feel the same way about 'beloved M' and 'big one Vesper'. To me, these remarks diminish Blofeld and make him look somewhat Dr Evil'esque. Same goes for 'cuckoo'. All unnecessary.

    I would have preferred if Bond came to the realization about the significance of Blofeld's impact on his life (via M, Vesper, Mathis, Fields etc. etc.) through some kind of flashback scenario. A dark moment of reflection or realization at L'Americaine as an example, when he finds the Vesper tape (perhaps on his own without Madeline). I'm sure Craig could have acted his pants off and delivered this moment. It's a pity we didn't get that.
  • Posts: 7,653
    All the actionscenes after the PTS are mostly devoid of human interactions outside of 007 and the villain which left the movie a bit devoid of humanity. For me SF is the worst of Mendes 007 movies and Craigs worst. Even the women of Bond feel second class written when compared to the SF gals who had far better written parts.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,967
    That's one of my biggest complaints with Mendes' work in the series: sloppy, poor finales. I think the action sequences done before the finales in both SF and SP were much better done and would've been an even better end game for the movie had they not pushed further. The actual Skyfall scenes are a bit lengthy and oustay their welcome real quick, followed by a generic 'Home Alone' recreation; SP gives us a thrilling scene at the villain's lair (took them long enough), just to ruin the pacing by injecting the Scooby Doo gang back into the mix with a lackluster finale.

    A longer runtime doesn't equate to a better movie; perhaps that's one of the reasons why I love QoS so much - shorter runtime makes it such an easy, engaging Bond movie to sit down and watch. Hell, even these 150 minute + releases wouldn't be bad if they can nail down the script and pacing.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,583
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    That's one of my biggest complaints with Mendes' work in the series: sloppy, poor finales. I think the action sequences done before the finales in both SF and SP were much better done and would've been an even better end game for the movie had they not pushed further. The actual Skyfall scenes are a bit lengthy and oustay their welcome real quick, followed by a generic 'Home Alone' recreation; SP gives us a thrilling scene at the villain's lair (took them long enough), just to ruin the pacing by injecting the Scooby Doo gang back into the mix with a lackluster finale.

    A longer runtime doesn't equate to a better movie; perhaps that's one of the reasons why I love QoS so much - shorter runtime makes it such an easy, engaging Bond movie to sit down and watch. Hell, even these 150 minute + releases wouldn't be bad if they can nail down the script and pacing.

    Odd that people find the SF climactic scenes as Home Alone. I saw Straw Dogs in those scenes.
  • We see what we wanna see, and hate what we wanna hate.
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,423
    TripAces wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    That's one of my biggest complaints with Mendes' work in the series: sloppy, poor finales. I think the action sequences done before the finales in both SF and SP were much better done and would've been an even better end game for the movie had they not pushed further. The actual Skyfall scenes are a bit lengthy and oustay their welcome real quick, followed by a generic 'Home Alone' recreation; SP gives us a thrilling scene at the villain's lair (took them long enough), just to ruin the pacing by injecting the Scooby Doo gang back into the mix with a lackluster finale.

    A longer runtime doesn't equate to a better movie; perhaps that's one of the reasons why I love QoS so much - shorter runtime makes it such an easy, engaging Bond movie to sit down and watch. Hell, even these 150 minute + releases wouldn't be bad if they can nail down the script and pacing.

    Odd that people find the SF climactic scenes as Home Alone. I saw Straw Dogs in those scenes.

    Depends on whether one is a 70's baby or a 90's baby I guess....
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    I see To Wong Foo, Thanks For Everything! Julie Newmar in those scenes in SF
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,967
    I see To Wong Foo, Thanks For Everything! Julie Newmar in those scenes in SF

    Definitely shades of a cross-dressing Patrick Swayze in them. But of course.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    Home Alone or not, personally I'm not seeing it, the climax of SF was full of tension and suspense not what I can say about the dull 2 climatic sequences of SPECTRE.

    The two flatest and least supenseful sequeces of the Craig era, the QOS Desert climax was 10 x better than those, you definitely thought Bond was in danger then.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    Shardlake wrote: »
    Home Alone or not, personally I'm not seeing it, the climax of SF was full of tension and suspense not what I can say about the dull 2 climatic sequences of SPECTRE.

    The two flatest and least supenseful sequeces of the Craig era, the QOS Desert climax was 10 x better than those, you definitely thought Bond was in danger then.
    QOS was a gem in the rough.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    The climax of SF is the only part that is full of tension and suspense. Except for the great PTS nothing than blah blah blah happens up to Macau and some strangely choreography fight? dance? in a skyscraper, if beautifully shot.

    I'm pretty sure in 10 years SF will only be remembered for the 50th Anniversary that accompanied it and Adele.
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