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Tired of the 'New Direction' seems to have set in!

GrantGrant
edited July 2011 in Skyfall Posts: 140
I was having a few drinks with a friend, two days ago, when he suddenly goes on an anti-craig Bond rant!. This was out of the blue! We weren't talking about Bond. He brought up the video Craig did, a couple of months ago, for Women's Day. How this was the final betrayal of Bond, the ultimate sop to PC. How Bond had to be shown to dress, drink and the like. How he mourned for a girl (Vesper) even though she betrayed him!

All very sudden. Then yesterday I came across this article.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2011/jul/12/james-bond-moneypenny-naomie-harris?INTCMP=SRCH


Just underlines, in less extreme language, the apathy towards Craig's Bond that I find out there.
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Comments

  • tqbtqb
    Posts: 1,022
    Well I agree to disagree
    I personally prefer the "new" Bond than the old one. However, I can see how others may feel differently.
  • actonsteveactonsteve
    Posts: 1,492
    I am a big fan of The Guardian and think the work it has done on this NOTW scandal has been superb. It may bring down Elliott Carver yet.

    But it is written by a journalist not a Bond fan. Next week it will be gushing over Harry Potter, the week after Transformers. And journalists do tend to like the cliched Bonds. They know where they are with them. They can tick off the cliches with them. Hell, the ultimate cliched Bond, Die Another Day, got good reviews because there were enough cliches for the journalists to latch onto .

    We dont know about Moneypenny yet although it is certainly on the cards. Personally, I dont think she was missed in the last two efforts and since they ruined the character the last time she did appear (snogging Pierce across the office desk) it needs a major overhaul.

    I am a big fan of the Craig era so am not worrying unduly. Babs and Mickey are observant. If they feel it is right, she will be brought back.

    As for your "mate down the pub" there is a little whiff of sexism in his utterances.

  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited July 2011 Posts: 11,189
    I quite liked the last scene with MP in DAD :">

    It got the biggest laugh in the cinema.

    As for the rest of the article I don't think the absense of MP (or Q) was a real problem in the last 2 films, Royale especially seemed to function perfectly well without her. They do need an actress who Craig has a playful "chemistry" with though. He was good with Vesper but she's dead, Camile was alright but he seemed to be trying a bit too hard to act like Connery with Strawberry Fields (their sex scene was bad).

    Most importantly though they need a story that makes us, the audience, give a damn (I'm sure they will).
  • YtterbiumYtterbium
    Posts: 269
    But it is written by a journalist not a Bond fan. Next week it will be gushing over Harry Potter, the week after Transformers. And journalists do tend to like the cliched Bonds. They know where they are with them. They can tick off the cliches with them. Hell, the ultimate cliched Bond, Die Another Day, got good reviews because there were enough cliches for the journalists to latch onto .
    You certainly have a point here. Too much Journalists are behaving as the "mate down in the pub" when they write their review about 007, and can't get further than stating the level of Clichés in the Bond film. If there is too many of them, they cry, if there isn't enough of them, they complain. I guess one point of the acclaimed critic of C.R. was that this film played with the bondian codes, so that everybody could notice them. So of course, when the critics catch the reference (like every one watching the movie), they are happy, and their review already written. they just need to add that "D.C. is bondian enough" or "He's not faithful to the role".

    Of course QOS have some weakness, but I think what troubles me the most, is the inability of critics to widen their angle of analysis for a Bond film. I guess there is more fan on this forums, behaving like true reviewers, then reviewers behaving as basic fans when it comes to talk about James Bond.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    edited July 2011 Posts: 7,582
    Not only does Moneypenny act as Bond's rock
    She was never his rock. Never ever.


    [Craig]has helped turn 007 into a glowering, monosyllabic nightclub bouncer who only breaks up the tedium of his self-indulgent moodiness by sobbing to himself, fully dressed, in the shower.
    Wasn't that Vesper?

    Imagine how much more bearable Quantum Of Solace would have been with a Moneypenny scene. All the skulking and sulking would have been far more acceptable if it was prefaced with a few minutes of good-natured flirtatious chitchat
    A few minutes? 30 seconds at most usually, but if this person thinks the whole film could have been saved by a 30 second scene between Bond and Moneypenny then who am I to argue?

    @Grant, you may not like Craig (now a huge star, billed comfortably above the likes of Harrison Ford) or his Bond (a masterclass in how to re-invent a character who had become a smug, dirty-minded middle aged man who knew better than any woman just how good looking he was), but I don't think that overall there is any apathy whatsoever about his performance or his casting in general.

    Quite the opposite in fact.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    I don't see how Moneypenny (a character that gets about a minute of screentime) could'e helped QOS. Destroy every shred of the film and start over would've, though.

    As for the title in the thread, yes, I have grown tired of Craigs Bond. I hate, no... loathe, how Bond has been turned into a mumbling, monotone, monosyllabic thug. I'm not calling for Brosnan to come back (god no, that bring with it it's own problems), and i'd never go as far as to boycott the films, but as soon as we're out of this era, the better imho.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited July 2011 Posts: 11,189
    @NicNac. The way I see it Bond was always a rather smug figure. He knew he was good looking and relished it (look at Connery in his early films). However I agree that by DAD Brosnan was ageing and it looked dirty (much like Connery in DAF and NSNA or indeed Moore in AVTAK).

    Regarding MP being Bond's "rock" I'm not sure. There are some scenes that MIGHT imply that (eg Lazenby's toss of the hat in OHMSS). However she was more of a flirty friend than a "rock" to me. Bond never went to her for any REAL advice. It was more playful banter than anything.
  • boldfingerboldfinger
    edited July 2011 Posts: 5,767
    The only thing that set in with me lately is the (perhaps just passing) conscience that Brosnan isn´t carrying his films as well as Connery, Moore, Dalton and Craig. If Craig keeps on performing as strong as he did so far I couldn´t give less about which way he portrays Bond. Well, as long as he doesn´t dress in drag or starts to flirt with a male Moneypenny at least.

    As far as I know, QOS didn´t do very bad financially. I find this interesting, because pretty much everyone I spoke to didn´t like it too much. Many of my friends already felt betrayed with CR, because "that wasn´t Bond". So I´m wondering if the last two films haven´t generated many new fans, if they have been so successful?
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    I don't see how Moneypenny (a character that gets about a minute of screentime) could'e helped QOS. Destroy every shred of the film and start over would've, though.

    As for the title in the thread, yes, I have grown tired of Craigs Bond. I hate, no... loathe, how Bond has been turned into a mumbling, monotone, monosyllabic thug. I'm not calling for Brosnan to come back (god no, that bring with it it's own problems), and i'd never go as far as to boycott the films, but as soon as we're out of this era, the better imho.
    Do you remember Major, how we (at MI6) were accused of being in cohorts with Eon and trying to ban anyone who spoke ill of Daniel Craig? It happened. Yet, you are living proof that we also promote people who don't like Daniel Craig ;-)
  • actonsteveactonsteve
    Posts: 1,492


    Of course QOS have some weakness, but I think what troubles me the most, is the inability of critics to widen their angle of analysis for a Bond film. I guess there is more fan on this forums, behaving like true reviewers, then reviewers behaving as basic fans when it comes to talk about James Bond.
    Its not just the critics - its the fans as well.

    Look at all the "we must have Moneypenny for the next one" or "Q for Bond 23". They like their crutches. Maybe the fans are very conservative in their thinking going all the way back to the personal and emotional OHMSS and certainly the Dalton era. It has to have the gunbarrel, Q and Moneypenny to be a proper Bond film. Nothing else will do.

    Some fans like their crutches.

    Bond has a structure - yes. But it also has an exceedingly flexible format which must change with the times. Moneypenny and Q wernt appropriate for the last two and would have been out of place. They would have stood out like sore thumbs in an emotional arc about Bond not his little hangers on.

    I quite liked the last scene with MP in DAD

    It got the biggest laugh in the cinema.
    That scene was symptomatic of the way the character was heading under Samantha Bonds tenure. Lois Maxwell was the business exhibting warmth and wit in equal measure, Caroline Bliss's tenure was too shortlived but Samantha Bond got a good four films. I never warmed to her in any of them and she came across as rather supercillious and bitchy in them.

    I am hoping this new girl is an improvement.



  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited July 2011 Posts: 15,718
    I have supported Craig from day 1 when he was chosen the role, I quite liked CR and QOS.... until I saw a non-Craig outing again... Then his 2 films rapidly descended into 21st and 22nd place of my ranking. The 'new factor' really took a hit, IMO. Probably because it was my first "new Bond" (I was 4 - too young - when GE was released), so there I was quite excited... But, alas, with nearly 5 years since CR, the New Factor has gone, and his films simply do not live up to Connery's, Moore's, Dalton's, Lazenby's films. I even prefer Brosnan's, as they FELT like Bond films. Bad ones, yes, but Bond films nonetheless. When you take out nearly every traditional elements, I can't tell I am watching a Bond film.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited July 2011 Posts: 11,189
    I liked Samantha Bond - always have. To me she was pretty close behind Louis Maxwell. She "got" the idea that Monneypenny should be feisty, independent and suggestive and you can imagine her secretly enjoying a dirty joke. Bliss was BAD. She got little to play with script-wise and came off as a smitten schoolgirl with a crush. Her and Dalton were simply going through the motions and I never got the impression the two actually liked each other unlike Brosnan and SB. She was childish in TLD and there was absolutely zero reason for her to be there in LTK.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,718
    Samantha Bond was good in GE and TND... passable in DAD (I don't know what to think of the final scene in DAD... Ok, maybe it was taken it too far... But it was one of the only occurence of playing around with the cliches in the Brosnan era)... but in TWINE she was horrible.

    Alright BAIN123.... I prefer Samantha Bond to Bliss...
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    I liked Samantha Bond - always have. To me she was pretty close behind Louis Maxwell. She "got" the idea that Monneypenny should be feisty, independent and suggestive. Bliss was BAD. She got little to play with script-wise and came off as a smitten schoolgirl with a crush. Her and Dalton were simply going through the motions and I never got the impression the two actually liked each other unlike Brosnan and SB. She was childish in TLD and there was absolutely zero reason for her to be there in LTK.
    Yup, I agree with all of that Mr BAIN. Samantha Bond got it right, and she was gracious enough to retire with Brosnan, accepting that an ageing MP wouldn't look so good with a younger Bond.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited July 2011 Posts: 15,718
    Samantha Bond is only 7 years older than Craig... And Craig's mature world-wearyness closes the gap even more...
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    Samantha Bond is only 7 years older than Craig... And Craig's mature world-wearyness closes the gap even more...
    Yes, point taken. I think she did mention age gaps at the time of Brosnan leaving, so maybe she had heard all these rumours of a younger Bond (beofere Craig's casting) and put 2 and 2 together. I'm not sure on that, but as it turned out MP was dropped from CR anyway.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited July 2011 Posts: 11,189
    I don't think Samantha Bond would work as well with Craig to be honest, they need someone a bit younger IF they are going to bring her back.

    Although I'd rather they didn't bring her back at all than just put her in "because the fans want her". If you're going to bring her back make her a memorable character - nearer Samantha Bond than Caroline Bliss.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited July 2011 Posts: 15,718
    I always supported Kelly Reilly as MP... But she is 33... Is that too young for Craig Bond ??

    1,000th post !! 8->
  • actonsteveactonsteve
    Posts: 1,492
    She "got" the idea that Monneypenny should be feisty, independent and suggestive
    She did? I always got the impression she was trying to put Brozzer Bond down. Often quite bitchily as well

    One reason for reservations about brining MP and Q back was the way they didnt work under their castings in the Brosnan era.

  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited July 2011 Posts: 11,189
    She enjoyed teasing Bond...and Bond enjoyed teasing her back. It was all in good fun.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    She "got" the idea that Monneypenny should be feisty, independent and suggestive
    She did? I always got the impression she was trying to put Brozzer Bond down. Often quite bitchily as well

    One reason for reservations about brining MP and Q back was the way they didnt work under their castings in the Brosnan era.

    It's a fair point about Samantha Bond's Penny, and makes you realise that all the Pennys have had differing personalities.
    Lois was a wise old bird, enjoying the flirting but just as aware as Bond that it was going nowhere (although in Sean's day she yearned for him secretly). As a secretary to M it was easy to see how her efficiency landed her what has to be one of the most prestigeous secretarial positions outside of the Prime Minister him/her self.

    The Bliss Penny was a fuddled, muddled love-sick 20 something. I can't imagine how she ended up in such a position, and can quite understand why Bond is so dismissive of her. It could be the fact Bliss completely ballsed the role up. How hard can it be to deliver half a dozen lines efficiently?

    Bond's Penny was more churlish, self-assured and sarcastic. She didn't seem to fancy Bond at all. She dismissed him with withering put-downs. It was a fresh angle on the role and Bond (Samantha that is) was great in it. Her Penny wasn't a secretary but a high powered PA. A woman of the 90s.

    Interesting to see how the next gal goes about it.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited July 2011 Posts: 11,189
    I think she liked Bond secretly but enjoyed playing hard to get.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    edited July 2011 Posts: 7,582
    I think she liked Bond secretly but enjoyed playing hard to get.
    Who? Samantha Bond? Yes, you are probably right. There's never really any question she fancied him I suppose (I said above that she 'seemed' not to fancy him), but being a 90s woman she simply wouldn't show it.
  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    Posts: 13,355
    When you take out nearly every traditional elements, I can't tell I am watching a Bond film.
    That's the point many are making though, not all the elements are gone at all. They're just there disguised in a different manner.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    If anything, MP would have been better off in CR than in QoS. The scene where Bond gets poisoned, I could easily see MP rushing in and telling M that he is going into cardiac arrest. Since we haven't had MP on screen for about ten years, and with the change in who plays Bond, I can't wait to see how they handle her.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited July 2011 Posts: 11,189
    I think the problem with the last film is that they tried to FORCE IN the traditional elements. It could have worked but it all seemed v half hearted. Take Agent Field, a classic sacrificial lamb who showed up to arrest Bond, slept with him, went to a party and then died.
  • dragonskydragonsky
    Posts: 2,491
    these changes are not done for the first time,bond changed many times during the years
  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    edited July 2011 Posts: 13,355
    I think the problem with the last film is that they tried to FORCE IN the traditional elements. It could have worked but it all seemed v half hearted. Take Agent Field, a classic sacrificial lamb who showed up to arrest Bond, slept with him, went to a party and then died.
    Yet there are other touches like the Robert Sterling, Universal Exports card that really works well as a homage.

    Indeed, in that sense Quantum Of Solace is a mixed bag as it wants to be retro but also up to date with added traditional elements on top of that and the end result doesn't really work.
  • boldfingerboldfinger
    Posts: 5,767
    I think the problem with the last film is that they tried to FORCE IN the traditional elements. It could have worked but it all seemed v half hearted. Take Agent Field, a classic sacrificial lamb who showed up to arrest Bond, slept with him, went to a party and then died.
    Yet there are other touches like the Robert Sterling, Universal Exports card that really works well as a homage.

    Indeed, in that sense Quantum Of Solace is a mixed bag as it wants to be retro but also up to date with added traditional elements on top of that and the end result doesn't really work.
    I think it´s wrong to judge QOS in that regard. It is very obiously kind of an arthouse film and thus not meant to be the natural continuation of traditional Bond films. The often stylish frames and the editing display a certain artistical flavor more than anything, and in that context there is nothing forced about the hommages to old Bond films.

  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    I got a lot from this interview. 1.) The writer has no knowledge of what Bond is meant to be, because he is clearly not a fan. 2.)The writer most likely went into QoS with a negative demeanor because his pals/mother told him it was bad and even if all his wishes came true he would still despise it. 3.)The writer hardly paid attention to CR, because he is seemingly surprised at why Bond is hurt in QoS. I'm sure if I fell in love with a woman, gave her 100% of me, resigned my job for her, and wanted to live an honest life with her then I too would be surprised if, oh, I dunno; she was in league with the organization that I had been chasing the entire film and still chasing in QoS! 4.)The writer seems to view Bond as "horny" and thinks that's the way it should be. Hmmm. That leads me to believe this guy is fat, jealous of Bond's suave, and is pent up with his mother all day and night at the age of 40, having nothing to watch but Soap Operas. Sadly, i may just be right.
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