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Comments
With QoB the role of the CIA is done excellent as expected, and Felix represents the good side of the CIA as he always did in the Fleming novels.
:)>-
Agreed. I thought the same. It's a bit like Silva's mobster plan to bribe the London Metropolitan Police to help him. Suddenly, Silva got an awful lot of help. And there were police cars helping Silva. And a bomb. Where did it came from? How was the scheme worked out?
Same with the underwater reservoir in QOS. Suddenly, it was there. Yeah well, let us see some goons working on it. I preferred some more investigation on this. Could have done perfectly.....QOS desperately needed 15 min's more :-P.
All we know is that Silva had henchmen passing as police officers. He didn't need to corrupt police officers, only to get a hold of some uniforms, or create the disguise himself. Nothing too difficult for a resourceful man like he was.
And the attack on the underground was an attempt to lure the police and security forces away from the hearing so Silva could strike at M.
Only the whole set-up is as believable and impossible to time from is being arrested by Bond on the island as anything that MR does offer in the fantastic. For me the weakness of SF are all events after the apprehension of Silva as they make so little sense in any way. That and the fact that an injured secret agent gets into service after months of absence and no bloody explanation of that absence. It would have been a chance to do TMWTGG or even refer to Topol from FYEO owing him a favor.
Totally agree. Said a hundred times before, but the plot just turns into an incoherent mess after Silva's capture. And the film just becomes flabby and dull.
Frankly, give me the sparse but actually relatively logical plot of QoS any day.
Not sure what you are trying to say. Yes, of course, goons are a hallmark of the some of the best Bond movies. That's why I was saying I'd have liked to have seen a few boiler suits whizzing round in their trucks in the underground reservoir scene in QoS.
:)>-
Oh I agree Silva's plan was far too convenient. But the henchmen passing as police officers were not what irked me about it. It was the timing that was ridiculous.
Anyway, this is off topic.
true and there is me defending QoB against SF :(
That said, the action scene in Istanbul is far superior to anything that QoB had to offer, one can always blame the editing but for me it is the lack of a director that knows about action in movies. Which should be important for a 007 director.
I thought the car chase at the start of QoS was actually pretty good.
Not sure that Forster or Mendes have really excelled with the action.
It would be nice to have more action that feels totally integral to the story, rather than just being there for the sake of an 'action sequence'.
Yes, for all the slating it gets, I actually think the QoS script is really not that bad.
They are not making any political statements. They are merely working with unassailable assumptions and facts. If I may, I need an LOL here. :))
You betray yourself with this statement. You don't even realize how poltically charged it really is.
" to say we've changed the Earth's climate is not political; it's scientific fact"
I assume by the "we" you mean mankind, as the earth's climate has continually changed throughout history.
Meanwhile your "fact" has been and is being debated at think tanks all over the world, and I do not believe there has been a more politiclly charged debate in the history of the world. The implications of these discussions impact entire ecomomies with the usual suspects demanding massive global wealth redistribution schemes. It is not a coincidence that actual Socialist International, with banners to that effect, were front and centre in New York last week, marching lock-step, in unison, in solidarity, united in the fight against global "climate change" Shudder.
And you don't think climate change science is rife with politics and competing agendas.
OK then. It's only about the scientific fact. Its just 1+1=2.
And I know I said I didn't want to get into the actual politics of QoS because it was all thoroughly discussed back in the day, with a consensus btw, that the film did contain politicaly messaging, some of it quite overt.
The discussion was never about whether the messaging was actually there or not. Rather the discussion is whether we care. Some do some don't.
I don't actually resent Forster and Haggis using the Bond palate to promote their leftist leanings. I don't like it, but I don't mind them exercising their right to artistic expression.
I would expect no less.
As I do have access to key transcripts from those politically charged discussions circa 2008, generated by the film known as QoS, I will share one nugget, which I humbly submit does contain, none too subtle, and again I don't care if any closet Marxists on this board, might relate wholeheartedly to the sentiments being expressed.
Artistic freedom of expression is dear to our free societies. It must have voice.
So put this one in your cuban cigar and puff. The smoke is decidedly political.
This Marxist platitude incongruously uttered by the criminal Greene: "We wouldn't want Marxists giving natural resources to the people, now would we?"
The writing is even hamfisted. Why would a pure criminal like Greene be compelled to utter such politically charged drivel. I guess if you are Haggis, you have a limited supply of characters to voice such lines. Greene may be bad but as least he's a smart sounding bad guy.
There are many more examples. The learned Dr Khan had a whole list. One could do a university term paper on the political messaging in this film.
And again I'm not actually complaining. Not a sour puss. The movie can be enjoyed for other merits, or not enjoyed.
And might I remind, you started this whole discussion when you expressed dismay that someone ( I can't remember who) gasp, innocently mentioned that there was politics in this film.
It seems that some who relate to the politics in the film, like to pretend its not even there, so the rest of us will just lap it all up I guess.
==and while we are on the subject....the corrupt CIA official is indeed a cinema cliche, however Forster and Haggis do take the Beam character to another level of perfidy.
It would be one thing if he was merely one rotten apple in a good CIA barrel, which we've seen many times in cinema. But Beam was working with official sanction. He wasn't rogue. He was above board.
We therefore have a rather broad condemnation of US foreign and economic policy in the western hemisphere combined with a contemporary censure directed at the CIA. It doesn't take Noam Chomsky to see where this all points.
At the end we find that Bond and Leiter have put the CIA, not just Beam, but the CIA right.
I am sure Langley appreciated the heads up from Messrs Forster and Haggis.
:P
Well said, Chrisisall..I got your back. I have a better chance of finding Bolivian water out of my tap, than finding a salient point in the wreckage of that bloviated post. But then I'm not an engineer skilled at drilling thru compost.
And revealing Bond's identity by Beam is something that's done in real life. Ask outed CIA agent Valerie Plame whose cover was blown by the Bush Admin. because of political revenge.
:)) =))
and here's another quote that will irritate those who need to find a "Socialist" message in Bond films:
Alec Trevelyan: "Hilarious question, particularly from you. Did you ever ask why? Why we toppled all those dictators, undermined all those regimes, only to come home: "Well done, good job, but sorry, old boy, everything you risked your life and limb for has changed." "
I find QOS to be a bold and unapologetic statement about the grey shades of the espionage business. The links that fail & the abuse of the system by the few. The most realistic Bond film yet, and actually, I'd have liked a bit more fantasy to it myself. Yeah, goons in the underground lake & a small firefight would have been nice.... "Good morning, gentlemen. ACME aquifer inspection, we're cleaning up the world, we thought this was a suitable starting point."
:)) :))
What's offputting about the Beam scenario from political mischief pov (which of course can't possibly exist in a Forster-Haggis collaboration- perish the thought) is the cute little planting of the seed, that the evil CIA conspires to plunder the resources of the hapless indiginees.
Where's Hugo Chavez when you need him.
Oh, there's plenty enough fantasy in QoS.
But this being an appreciation thread, I'm sure the movie moved thousands to hustle down to Bolivia to start digging wells.
Edit to add: The above is for @timmer to show him this movie (like most) can be argued any which way you want and in no way reflects my feelings about this movie in particular or the franchise in general (just in case anyone took this seriously and was ready to send me a Force choke ).
:))
While they are pervasive world wide, much of their attention has been aimed at Central and South America. Countless coup attempts have failed, but a number have succeeded. Here are just a handful in the last 50 years: Cuba, Honduras, Haiti, Bolivia, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Panama, Brazil and Uruguay.
The collection of water rights to one group or organization is far from outlandish. T. Boone Pickens(one of the world's richest men) has been buying water rights in Oklahoma and Texas for a few years. "Water will be the new oil" he says. Oh and by the way, these states have severe droughts and water shortages for the past 2-3 years. I doubt Mr. Pickens is hoping for a wet weather pattern anytime soon.
Let's at least keep it connected to QOS...
true but it does make the story QoB has as a backbone so much interesting and that is why this movie is such a frustration for me, it has got a brilliant real life backbone and a effing oaf of a director whose artistic vision was seemingly more important than telling what could have been a better movie than CR.
For that reason I find that Forster should be flogged in public and never be allowed to direct any movie whatsoever. ;)
I still like the movie as-is.
btw, nice rant by Mr 69 posts.This stuff ( and not much else) always pulls them out of the woodwork.
So come again about QoS not stirring the loins of the moveon.org crowd.
No political messaging in this film. None at all.
Vive le revolution!