Quantum of Solace Appreciation Thread- We Found a Better Place to Meet

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  • Posts: 15,106
    I think the Bourne model was something which Babs could look at rebooting bond to grow a new audience.I don't doubt it was a big factor. However Matt Damon a better actor than DC is not even worthy of a response. If you think that's true then you haven't seen enough DC movies outside of Bond his performances in Defiance and Munich are incredible, Damon could only dream to play. Damon is a 1 trick pony.

    Agreed. Damon is a good actor, but he is far more limited than Craig.
  • edited March 2015 Posts: 11,425
    Limited? One trick pony? These are both really odd statements, given the success that he's had in a wide variety of different roles across numerous genres. Have you guys seen his films? Fair enough if you prefer Craig - I don't really have a problem with that - but the knocking of Damon just doesn't square with his actual work as actor. Have you guys seen The Talented Mr Ripley; Invictus; Bourne; The Departed; Oceans 11; Behind the Candelabra etc. etc. ? If you have, I don't really understand how you can seriously claim that he is a limited actor.

    I think it's also worth bearing in mind that without Bourne and Damon's performance in those films, it's quite possible that EON would never have cast Craig in the first place. We'd probably be living through a continuation of the Brosnan era, with Henry Cavill in the lead role.
  • SirHilaryBraySirHilaryBray Scotland
    edited March 2015 Posts: 2,138
    Getafix wrote: »
    May be what I mean is that Damon is the better big screen movie actor. I haven't seen either of them on stage (has Damon done any stage work), so cannot judge them on that front. Like a lot of British actors, Craig is probably as at home in the theatre as on screen.

    I've seen Defiance (okay) and Munich (perfectly good in a relatively minor supporting role). As has been discussed elsewhere on these threads, Craig's movies outside of Bond have noticeably struggled. TGWTDT seemed a guaranteed money-spinner, but failed to launch. Cowboys and Aliens was an abomination. Not necessarily his fault, but...

    I'm not slating Craig, who I think is very good. I just think Matt Damon is possibly a better actor. Look at their CVs - as a movie star, Damon has a much more impressive track record and particularly outside of their respective spy franchies, Damon has I suspect had the better critical and commercial success.

    Good Will Hunting, anyone? Talented Mr Ripley? The Departed. Invictus. True Grit.

    Just the Talented Mr Ripley alone puts Damon ahead of Craig IMO.

    Craig is a good Bond, a very decent actor and I'm glad we've got him, but I'm not really expecting him to go on and do much after Bond. If he goes on and does interesting supporting roles and theatre work after Bond, I think he will be happy.

    I don't actually personally think either of them are mind-blowingly amazing actors. They're perhaps quite similar in some respects, as actors and people. Low key. Not hugging the lime-light. Perhaps they're even happier when in supporting roles or in an ensemble. I like them both. I just think Damon has the edge on Craig. May be he's just been lucky with his roles.

    No doubt Bond is what brought DC to being a leading man. That's credit to Babs who saw him in Munich and knew she was looking at her next Bond. DC in Layer Cake, the invasion, TGWTDT and Road to Perdition has shown he is a versatile actor. 4 times Spielberg arguably one of the top 3 directors/producers of all time has turned to DC. As for Damon he and Affleck wrote screen plays and cast themselves and can't argue with their talent as writers. But Team America summed Damon up. Cowboys and Aliens was awful but not for DC's performance just the whole premise but hey if you get the call saying Harrison Ford specifically asked for you will you do it, you say Hans Indiana Solo Jones asked for me?? dam right I will do it.
  • edited March 2015 Posts: 11,425
    Layer Cake is a cool movie - I enjoyed it, and Craig basically gave us his proto-Bond in that. I don't think Babs cast DC because of Munich - it was surely because of Layer Cake. Never liked Road to Perdition (nothing to do with Craig) and was disappointed and underwhelmed by TGWTDT, which I thought was lacking tension and any real sense of danger.

    If you're under the misapprehension that four Spielbergs (of which I think he only actually directed two?) trumps a Scorcese, an Eastwood, a Minghella and a Coen Brothers, I think you might want to reassess your hand before doubling down.
  • SirHilaryBraySirHilaryBray Scotland
    edited March 2015 Posts: 2,138
    Getafix wrote: »
    Layer Cake is a cool movie - I enjoyed it, and Craig basically gave us his proto-Bond in that. I don't think Babs cast DC because of Munich - it was surely because of Layer Cake. Never liked Road to Perdition and was disappointed and underwhelmed by TGWTDT.

    If you're under the misapprehension that four Spielbergs trumps a Scorcese, an Eastwood, a Minghella and a Coen Brothers, I think you might want to reassess your hand before doubling down.

    An Eastwood? Hes made some good films but to compare him to Spielbergs legacy it codswallop. Dan has worked for David Fincher TGWTDT and Sam Mendes pre bond in RTP. Scorcese efforts in the last 10 years to get Decaprio and Oscar have been a bore. The Coen Brothers films are an acquired taste. But it's a casting agent not a director who makes that call the truth is Dan has shown on screen he can offer more than Damon. Damon is one dimensional. And I believe it's on the Everything or Nothing DVD Babs talks about looking out for the next Bond and seeing Dan in Munich.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Just my two cents on the Talented Mr. Ripley, because I realize it's not everybody's cup of tea: I think it's an incredible piece of film-making - tremendous performances from everyone concerned and breathtaking old-school cinematography. I also think the score is phenomenal.

    Sorry, I just had to rave. Love that movie!
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,392
    Dark entries like CR and LTK are exempt from criticism on here because they have a tone similar to the books, whereas larger than life films like GE, SF are picked apart and criticised for the smallest of details.
    3:-O
  • edited March 2015 Posts: 11,189
    I think Damon can be a little hit-and-miss as an actor to be honest. Liked him in GWH, The Departed and the last two Bourne films but was underwhelmed by his first performance as JB. Also, Elysium, the last film I saw with him, was a poor film in general.
  • Posts: 11,119
    In all honesty, I think it's important not to overanalyze films. Next month it is suddenly a good film for you, whereas one year ago it was bad? Sorry.

    I think the biggest problem with QOS was actually the director. He has the final say in the creative process of the film. Marc Forster could have halted for a month, to seriously retouch the script. And moreover, I don't buy it that QOS solely suffers from that "writer's strike".

    It was Forster's personal choice to distance the look and feel of QOS from Campbell's approach in CR. IMO not a smart move. QOS is a good film, and I understand that Forster wanted the story to be more grittier and vengeful. But let that "breathe" inside the story, from the characters, and dialogue (aspect that was actually quite OK).

    Where it did go wrong, was the fact that Forster wanted his "grittier" approach to be applied on every aspect of the film, including the technical aspects, like cinematography, editing, cutting and music
    . Completely unnecessary, as it felt too forced. Just imagine what Roger Deakins would have done to QOS. Or Stuart Baird.

    Also, I think the producers could have halted QOS a bit. Now they know that a 3-year or 4-year gap actually works better. It makes a movie feel less rushed.

    It's one of the reasons really why Sam Mendes might have felt to U-turn this look and feel again and let it breathe a more "Casino Royale"-esque vibe (visually, musically, from the viewpoint of editing and cutting).

  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    Dark entries like CR and LTK are exempt from criticism on here because they have a tone similar to the books, whereas larger than life films like GE, SF are picked apart and criticised for the smallest of details.
    3:-O

    CR isn't 'dark'. It has its moments, but it isn't bleak. I find SF bleak.

  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    I wouldn't like to call it on Damon and Craig. Both very good screen actors. I first saw Craig in Our Friends In The North on TV. He was with Mark Strong, Christopher Eccleston and a host of great British character actors. We (wife and me) had no idea who Craig was, but we never forgot him, he stole the show, and so we watched his career with interest.

    Regardless of box office performance the fact Craig is considered for the lead in a big screen film is testament to his abilities.

    He is simply a terrific actor.

    The thing is, I think Damon is too.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    NicNac wrote: »
    I wouldn't like to call it on Damon and Craig. Both very good screen actors. I first saw Craig in Our Friends In The North on TV. He was with Mark Strong, Christopher Eccleston and a host of great British character actors. We (wife and me) had no idea who Craig was, but we never forgot him, he stole the show, and so we watched his career with interest.

    Regardless of box office performance the fact Craig is considered for the lead in a big screen film is testament to his abilities.

    He is simply a terrific actor.

    The thing is, I think Damon is too.

    I like Damon. His work in Identity and Supremacy forced EON to up their game.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,392
    RC7 wrote: »
    Dark entries like CR and LTK are exempt from criticism on here because they have a tone similar to the books, whereas larger than life films like GE, SF are picked apart and criticised for the smallest of details.
    3:-O

    CR isn't 'dark'. It has its moments, but it isn't bleak. I find SF bleak.

    Dark and bleak mean the same thing? CR is dark for the bond films. Anyway, what I mean is that LTK and CR have more the tone of the books so they get a free pass when it comes to criticism, with many issues being overlooked.
    3:-O
  • edited March 2015 Posts: 11,189
    Has anyone seen him in Eurotrip? :))

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited March 2015 Posts: 23,883
    I think Damon is an excellent actor. He can play it very light (Stuck on You cracks me up and he's pretty cool in the Ocean films) or understated serious (Bourne) or uncomfortably wierd (The Talented Mr. Ripley). Elysium was just a bad movie - even Foster was bad in that one.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    RC7 wrote: »
    Dark entries like CR and LTK are exempt from criticism on here because they have a tone similar to the books, whereas larger than life films like GE, SF are picked apart and criticised for the smallest of details.
    3:-O

    CR isn't 'dark'. It has its moments, but it isn't bleak. I find SF bleak.

    Dark and bleak mean the same thing? CR is dark for the bond films. Anyway, what I mean is that LTK and CR have more the tone of the books so they get a free pass when it comes to criticism, with many issues being overlooked.
    3:-O

    They don't mean the same thing, no. Yes, CR has darker moments than a lot of the series, but SF also goes to some murky places and at times is very bleak and harsh, emotionally and narratively. I'm merely saying that I don't understand your comparison, as I don't find SF to be a particularly larger than life film in the way you suggest. It's a narrative that is constantly concerned with failure and how one reacts to that. I've also seen LTK lambasted on here and SF described as a masterpiece.
  • edited March 2015 Posts: 11,189
    SF is perhaps quite bleak but it does have a fair few lighter moments and scenes. I do remember it getting quite a few laughs when I saw it in the cinema.

    "He's keen to get home"
    "what makes you think this is my first time"
    "the whole office goes up and that bloody thing survives"
    "I read your obituary of me"
    "Try and stop me you jumped up little s***"
    (astonished look) "what did you say you did for a living?"
    -All of the Q scene.
  • edited March 2015 Posts: 11,425
    Getafix wrote: »
    Layer Cake is a cool movie - I enjoyed it, and Craig basically gave us his proto-Bond in that. I don't think Babs cast DC because of Munich - it was surely because of Layer Cake. Never liked Road to Perdition and was disappointed and underwhelmed by TGWTDT.

    If you're under the misapprehension that four Spielbergs trumps a Scorcese, an Eastwood, a Minghella and a Coen Brothers, I think you might want to reassess your hand before doubling down.

    An Eastwood? Hes made some good films but to compare him to Spielbergs legacy it codswallop. Dan has worked for David Fincher TGWTDT and Sam Mendes pre bond in RTP. Scorcese efforts in the last 10 years to get Decaprio and Oscar have been a bore. The Coen Brothers films are an acquired taste. But it's a casting agent not a director who makes that call the truth is Dan has shown on screen he can offer more than Damon. Damon is one dimensional. And I believe it's on the Everything or Nothing DVD Babs talks about looking out for the next Bond and seeing Dan in Munich.

    Codswallop? Again, a strange statement given Eastwood 's CV.
    I don't think it's unreasonable to mention Spielberg and Eastwood together at all. Again, are you actually aware of what Eastwood has done as a director? Let alone his acting work.

    In fact you could argue that over the last decade or so the older man has actually done the better work.

    Their simple story telling style is actually not dissimilar and something I admire in both of them. The recent American Sniper could easily have been directed by Spielberg (in fact almost was, I think). Two great American mainstream directors.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,392
    Yes, but the difference is that when Skyfall is praised it's based on elements from the film itself and it is criticism based on those same elements, which is fair. When LTK is praised it's usually something along the lines of 'pure Fleming' or 'this is the bond of the books', and when you criticize individual elements of the film the fan response is ' you obviously haven't read the books then'. Same with CR. Fans will ignore/defend a films faults if it is closer in tone to the books, but films like GE, SF which have elements of fun that aren't in the books aren't afforded the same excuse.
    3:-O
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    edited March 2015 Posts: 28,694
    I find CR and Skyfall kind of equally bleak. In both Bond's trust is tested in some way, especially through Vesper's betrayal and later redemption in CR and through his clashes with M's order to Eve in Skyfall. In both films the main villains, if left to their own devises would put many innocents in danger, Le Chiffre because of his dealings with terrorists and Silva because he wouldn't let anyone stop him from rattling M's cage. Both feature a melancholic death scene of a woman Bond cares about at the end, and both of those relationships were complicated. Both movies end without the stereotypical heroic finish (something I love about them), and instead find Bond worse off than he might've began, or in a place where he feels a sense of loss or pain. Each film's climax and resolution are a nice change of pace from the usual overdone finales where the hero parades around in victorious ecstasy. I do think Skyfall has the more hopeful ending however, as Bond stands on the rooftop gazing at the empire still standing, just as he still stands.

    CR and Skyfall (and QoS too) connect the Craig era to the real world, because things just don't end up that way in life. I think that's part of the reason why I love the Craig films so much; they give Bond a humanity he'd lost and make the more earnest stories the films tell feel relatable and with real stakes. In the old days it was no question that Bond would come out the hero at the end with an explosion of pomp around him. Now we know Bond will still make it out alive, but are more uncertain than ever about how much of him will be left at the end.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,392
    I find CR and Skyfall kind of equally bleak. In both Bond's trust is tested in some way, especially through Vesper's betrayal and later redemption in CR and through his clashes with M's order to Eve in Skyfall. In both films the main villains, if left to their own devises would put many innocents in danger, Le Chiffre because of his dealings with terrorists and Silva because he wouldn't let anyone stop him from rattling M's cage. Both feature a melancholic death scene of a woman Bond cares about at the end, and both of those relationships were complicated. Both movies end without the stereotypical heroic finish (something I love about them), and instead find Bond worse off than he might've began, or in a place where he feels a sense of loss or pain. Each film's climax and resolution are a nice change of pace from the usual overdone finales where the hero parades around in victorious ecstasy. I do think Skyfall has the more hopeful ending however, as Bond stands on the rooftop gazing at the empire still standing, just as he still stands.

    CR and Skyfall (and QoS too) connect the Craig era to the real world, because things just don't end up that way in life. I think that's part of the reason why I love the Craig films so much; they give Bond a humanity he'd lost and make the more earnest stories the films tell feel relatable and with real stakes. In the old days it was no question that Bond would come out the hero at the end with an explosion of pomp around him. Now we know Bond will still make it out alive, but are more uncertain than ever about how much of him will be left at the end.

    You wouldn't have 'the circle of life', 'he's keen to get home', 'i got into some deep water' in CR.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited March 2015 Posts: 23,883
    "Circle of life" was admittedly a stinker but "that's because you know what I can do with my little finger" #-o
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    I find CR and Skyfall kind of equally bleak. In both Bond's trust is tested in some way, especially through Vesper's betrayal and later redemption in CR and through his clashes with M's order to Eve in Skyfall. In both films the main villains, if left to their own devises would put many innocents in danger, Le Chiffre because of his dealings with terrorists and Silva because he wouldn't let anyone stop him from rattling M's cage. Both feature a melancholic death scene of a woman Bond cares about at the end, and both of those relationships were complicated. Both movies end without the stereotypical heroic finish (something I love about them), and instead find Bond worse off than he might've began, or in a place where he feels a sense of loss or pain. Each film's climax and resolution are a nice change of pace from the usual overdone finales where the hero parades around in victorious ecstasy. I do think Skyfall has the more hopeful ending however, as Bond stands on the rooftop gazing at the empire still standing, just as he still stands.

    CR and Skyfall (and QoS too) connect the Craig era to the real world, because things just don't end up that way in life. I think that's part of the reason why I love the Craig films so much; they give Bond a humanity he'd lost and make the more earnest stories the films tell feel relatable and with real stakes. In the old days it was no question that Bond would come out the hero at the end with an explosion of pomp around him. Now we know Bond will still make it out alive, but are more uncertain than ever about how much of him will be left at the end.

    You wouldn't have 'the circle of life', 'he's keen to get home', 'i got into some deep water' in CR.

    No, you wouldn't. Which is why CR is a better film.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,392
    bondjames wrote: »
    "Circle of life" was admittedly a stinker but "that's because you know what I can do with my little finger" #-o

    I know, the dialogue between Bond and Vesper when they're in love is so ridiculous and cheesy. IMO it's worst than anything in Skyfall.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    bondjames wrote: »
    "Circle of life" was admittedly a stinker but "that's because you know what I can do with my little finger" #-o

    I know, the dialogue between Bond and Vesper when they're in love is so ridiculous and cheesy. IMO it's worst than anything in Skyfall.

    Agreed. Saved only by the quality of acting. The dialogue brought back uncomfortable memories of the genius work in Star Wars: Episode II Attack of the Clones
  • Posts: 11,425
    Some of the dialogue in CR but Craig and Green make it work IMO. The sillyness of their 'little fingure' conversation does convey the genuine moment of closeness/intimacy where they finally, fully connect, IMO. It's a cheesy line but actually appropriate to the scene and the context. They're totally at ease with each other and on the verge of giving into love - as Bond says, his guard is down. Perhaps it could have been done better, and differently, but it's not the worst dialogue we've seen in a Bond movie.
  • Posts: 15,106
    Getafix wrote: »
    Limited? One trick pony? These are both really odd statements, given the success that he's had in a wide variety of different roles across numerous genres. Have you guys seen his films? Fair enough if you prefer Craig - I don't really have a problem with that - but the knocking of Damon just doesn't square with his actual work as actor. Have you guys seen The Talented Mr Ripley; Invictus; Bourne; The Departed; Oceans 11; Behind the Candelabra etc. etc. ? If you have, I don't really understand how you can seriously claim that he is a limited actor.

    I think it's also worth bearing in mind that without Bourne and Damon's performance in those films, it's quite possible that EON would never have cast Craig in the first place. We'd probably be living through a continuation of the Brosnan era, with Henry Cavill in the lead role.

    I really like Matt Damon, actually, as a person and an actor. The Talented Mr Ripley is actually one of my favorite movies and he gave one hell of a performance in it. Maybe his best. I also enjoyed his Bourne movies, although I do not think the role is that great to begin with. All the same, I find Craig the best actor.
  • edited March 2015 Posts: 11,425
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    Limited? One trick pony? These are both really odd statements, given the success that he's had in a wide variety of different roles across numerous genres. Have you guys seen his films? Fair enough if you prefer Craig - I don't really have a problem with that - but the knocking of Damon just doesn't square with his actual work as actor. Have you guys seen The Talented Mr Ripley; Invictus; Bourne; The Departed; Oceans 11; Behind the Candelabra etc. etc. ? If you have, I don't really understand how you can seriously claim that he is a limited actor.

    I think it's also worth bearing in mind that without Bourne and Damon's performance in those films, it's quite possible that EON would never have cast Craig in the first place. We'd probably be living through a continuation of the Brosnan era, with Henry Cavill in the lead role.

    I really like Matt Damon, actually, as a person and an actor. The Talented Mr Ripley is actually one of my favorite movies and he gave one hell of a performance in it. Maybe his best. I also enjoyed his Bourne movies, although I do not think the role is that great to begin with. All the same, I find Craig the best actor.

    Fair enough. DC is very good.

    I also love the Talented Mr Ripley movie. Lots of good performances - Jude Law, Gwyneth, PSH.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    Getafix wrote: »
    Some of the dialogue in CR but Craig and Green make it work IMO. The sillyness of their 'little fingure' conversation does convey the genuine moment of closeness/intimacy where they finally, fully connect, IMO. It's a cheesy line but actually appropriate to the scene and the context. They're totally at ease with each other and on the verge of giving into love - as Bond says, his guard is down. Perhaps it could have been done better, and differently, but it's not the worst dialogue we've seen in a Bond movie.

    Totally agree. I've never had a problem with it. There are also some genuinely witty and funny moments in CR. SF plumps for one liners that are so misplaced you have to wonder why no one on set just said, 'this is shit'. I'm surprised Dan let the 'deep water' line slip through the net.

  • SirHilaryBraySirHilaryBray Scotland
    Posts: 2,138
    Getafix wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    Layer Cake is a cool movie - I enjoyed it, and Craig basically gave us his proto-Bond in that. I don't think Babs cast DC because of Munich - it was surely because of Layer Cake. Never liked Road to Perdition and was disappointed and underwhelmed by TGWTDT.

    If you're under the misapprehension that four Spielbergs trumps a Scorcese, an Eastwood, a Minghella and a Coen Brothers, I think you might want to reassess your hand before doubling down.

    An Eastwood? Hes made some good films but to compare him to Spielbergs legacy it codswallop. Dan has worked for David Fincher TGWTDT and Sam Mendes pre bond in RTP. Scorcese efforts in the last 10 years to get Decaprio and Oscar have been a bore. The Coen Brothers films are an acquired taste. But it's a casting agent not a director who makes that call the truth is Dan has shown on screen he can offer more than Damon. Damon is one dimensional. And I believe it's on the Everything or Nothing DVD Babs talks about looking out for the next Bond and seeing Dan in Munich.

    Codswallop? Again, a strange statement given Eastwood 's CV.
    I don't think it's unreasonable to mention Spielberg and Eastwood together at all. Again, are you actually aware of what Eastwood has done as a director? Let alone his acting work.

    In fact you could argue that over the last decade or so the older man has actually done the better work.

    Their simple story telling style is actually not dissimilar and something I admire in both of them. The recent American Sniper could easily have been directed by Spielberg (in fact almost was, I think). Two great American mainstream directors.

    In terms of director taking away Eastwood s acting roles. Spielberg is a pioneer of modern cinema Spielberg won the Academy Award for Best Director for Schindler's List (1993) and Saving Private Ryan (1998). Jaws (1975), E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial (1982), and Jurassic Park (1993). Not to mention War Horse or the 150 other films he's produced. Spielberg has stepped away from the big blockbuster world to do smaller scale meaningful history telling films. Eastwood is not a pioneering film maker and has not directed anything on the scale of the above. If you still think they are on par you need to have your head checked.
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