It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
^ Back to Top
The MI6 Community is unofficial and in no way associated or linked with EON Productions, MGM, Sony Pictures, Activision or Ian Fleming Publications. Any views expressed on this website are of the individual members and do not necessarily reflect those of the Community owners. Any video or images displayed in topics on MI6 Community are embedded by users from third party sites and as such MI6 Community and its owners take no responsibility for this material.
James Bond News • James Bond Articles • James Bond Magazine
Comments
So it must be the former, in which case the child's age wouldn't matter. Vesper thought she was in a relationship with Yusef (even if he was a fraud), so the child was likely from a previous romance.
You're ultimately right, of course - it would have been an unnecessary narrative tangent, and one of the things I like about QoS is its relative simplicity. But it still could have had merit and been interesting.
There was a line in one of the draft CR scripts where, just before she killed herself, Vesper said to Bond 'If you see him, tell him I'm sorry - I fell in love.' Vesper thought she loved Yusef - until she found the real thing and fell in love with Bond.
I think Haggis's idea was that Vesper's daughter was only a very young child and that by leaving her in the Albanian orphanage, Bond would make sure she grew up 'off-grid' with nothing to connect her to Bond, Vesper or Quantum, so she'd be safe. That works on one level, with it being the only realistic hope of a normal life that the kid would have. But while Haggis wrote a cold, hard Bond, he also said that 'my Bond has to pay a price. He denies that he pays a price, but he does.' So, like OBrady says, it would've haunted him. Could he just leave it alone over the years...?
There's a lot of potential for different ways the series could've gone in all this and Craig's so good he'd've acted the hell out of all of them. I'd've loved to have seen what he did with it. But that would've meant losing the QOS that we did get. On the whole, I think it's better that they went in another direction. Dunno if you can tell yet, but I'm in the 'QOS is brilliant as it is' crew! ;)
When it comes to Vesper, I think she initially did the best "performance" she could to do what she was asked to, but you can see her slip here and there. Her reluctance to play Bond's arm candy could be seen not just as her unwillingness to be controlled or a sign of friction between them, but also her guilt and shame coming out for being so intimate with another man. I couldn't imagine being with a girl, going off on a mission and staging romantic acts with another one behind her back, regardless of the intention and mission parameters, so I can only imagine what Vesper felt as she clearly did feel strongly for Yusef. She still wears his love knot the entire film, after all, and you know she's constantly thinking about him and his safety, and likely feeling all the worse about herself knowing her care for Bond is growing more and more as time goes on.
I think once Vesper experiences the whole clash with Obanno and his right hand, she realizes just how deep into this drama she is. From that moment on, you can see that she has a dark mark tainting her, from which she never fully recovers. She never looks at Bond the same way again, as she sees what he's capable of and what his job drives him to do. On the other hand, I think part of her genuine love for him also springs from this moment, as he confronts her in the shower and has a very pure moment of compassion for her where he acts nothing like the suave, bold smart ass she knows to that point. They just sit there and hold one another, take in what they've survived and see new sides of one another as they let their vulnerabilities show. So while Vesper sees the cold blooded killer that Bond can be, she also sees the man's heart behind it all.
And as the film goes on and Bond truly falls in love, and tells Vesper so many truly romantic and loving things that he feels so deeply, you can see how much she is emotionally moved, not just because I think she feels strongly for him, but also because she feels guilty for feeling such a thing for Bond when she already has a lover who she believes is currently under the threat of danger. I ultimately feel a lot of sympathy for Vesper, because she didn't have control over how she felt, and you can constantly see just how difficult it is for her to rationalize what she's doing. You can see all the pain, guilt, shame and trauma underneath, brought out wonderfully by Eva Green. It's one of those cases where the person who has done wrong has punished themselves enough, and I think Bond comes to that conclusion in the end as well.
As for whether Bond's rage comes from thinking Vesper never loved him, I just don't know. I think, deep down, he did know that she loved him, even at the start of QoS. Vesper's care for Bond is so deep, she kills herself because she can't imagine facing him again knowing what she's done. You don't do that to escape someone you don't care a lot for. I think what sparks Bond's sharp denials and avoidance of Vesper comes from trying to reconcile how someone who loved him could hurt him so badly, and he's of course angry at himself for loving her at all, which put him in a place to feel the pain of not just the betrayal, but her loss on top of it. I think most of his hard avoidance comes from the latter, and that is why he plays up that Vesper meant nothing to him. He doesn't want anyone to see that his heart had been taken ownership of, not just because of his pride, but because his job demands that he be dispassionate. I think he views himself as a failure in the 00 department, and is ashamed that he allowed himself to fall so fast and hard on the job.
Ultimately, I think we do have to credit Mathis will being the real deciding factor in Bond's emotional development, because he fights for Bond to face what has happened and to see with clarity. Up until Mathis returns, Bond's guard is up again and he blocks out everything, but his friend allows him to see clearly for the first time since the Venice situation went down. Without Mathis, I don't think Bond would have as much of a clean and healthy reconciliation of that trauma, if he did at all. One of my favorite aspects of QoS. When it's all said and done, I think the real factor that makes Bond able to put Vesper to rest is knowing that she was as much a victim as he was, and I truly think that he always knew she cared for him. With all the context behind what happened exposed, he was able to see the full picture and move on.
All this also has me thinking about Bond's visit to Vesper's grave in NTTD, where he writes "Forgive Me" on that note before burning it. All this time I have really only focused on him getting over Vesper and her betrayal, but maybe all that time Bond still felt bad for how quickly he turned against Vesper and viewed her as a villain post-CR? Perhaps this is him asking for Vesper to forgive him in return for not trusting the sincerity of her love, or for turning his back on his own deep feelings for her ("The bitch is dead") just to save face and avoid heartbreak. I find that a fascinating moment for the character that brings back his past experiences and sadness in a new light, where he is taking accountability for the ways that he didn't act correctly. I love that, because you are so shocked at what is being revealed about Vesper that you never really slow down enough to realize that Bond isn't acting as gracious as he should either, and you give him the benefit of the doubt knowing what he's been through. I think it's that visit to Vesper's grave and that moment with her that truly lets him fully forgive himself as well, knowing that he is being honest with what he feels for her all that time later ("I miss you") and being objective about the bad things he did to her as well. It's him truly coming full circle, and being a complete man again. God, I love this freaking era.
Yes, you could well be right, there, OBrady - I like this perspective on it. Good one.
The child may have been Yusef's so she could have been small like 5 yrs max. Bu the Yusef guy didn't care for the daughter and Quantum used the child as a pawn against Vesper. Bond leaving Yusef alive but knowing he didn't want anything to do with that scum... going so far as to dropping his necklace given to Vesper in the snow to get rid of his residue....left the girl at the Albanian orphanage in case Yusef gets released. Bond didn't want to deal with cutsody battles for Vesper and Yusef's child because his professionalism and dedication to the job would be compromised and Yusef would have to grant legal guardianship which meant he would hold a bargaining chip for Bond.
I can only imagine Quantum/SPECTRE had tons of honeypots going on all over the globe, waiting to use that leverage when needed, but I don't know if they'd have their agents be so committed to their targets that they full on married them up and had kids with them. I don't see the manipulations as being that long term.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_undercover_policing_relationships_scandal
BTW this is probably Arnold's best score.
@dramaticscenesofQOS, we've definitely all talked about Yusef being used in later movies post-QoS in the past. I always imagined that a future plot would necessitate that Bond work with the man that aided in creating the circumstances that led to the death of the woman he loved, which would've certainly been interesting. It would have been interesting to see Bond forced to be professional with a man he'd love to strangle the life out of, but I'm honestly glad they didn't go that route. Yusef just isn't enough of an interesting character.
I would've been far more satisfied with a Bond film starting post-PTS with Bond sitting in his office at MI6 doing paperwork, before he's called by M to her office. He'd find out via a briefing that Mr. White had turned himself in seeking refuge in exchange for vital Quantum/SPECTRE information that implicated major political figures in the UK and abroad (and whatever the plot and villain story would involve that time around). Bond would then be tasked with "babysitting" White as he went with the man to weed out major threats from his old organization, with neither man trusting the other due to their troubled past and what happened with Vesper. It could've been this way that SPECTRE and Blofeld were first teased, and Blofeld finding White's hideout could have been the factor that made the man run to MI6 for protection. As in SP, he'd be a more changed man who is regretful of how much his organization had mutated from what it was in older days, and he would ultimately aid in revealing Blofeld to the world, and setting the stage for a bigger battle between Bond and the villain in a later film. The film could have moments where he and Bond saw a different, more human side of each other, which I think would've been interesting.
I think SP did a fantastic, if brief job of bringing White back, whilst having a surprisingly intimate moment between he and Bond where they laid down arms and related on a personal level. I am very, very happy that we got to see White again and got a refreshingly human moment between he and Bond. I remember waiting all day to watch the first trailer for SP and literally yelling at high pitch when I heard White's voice play over the scenes.
Mr White and all of his related aspects including the scene at Le American were some of the best aspects of SP. Not to mention, the desert shots when Bond and Madeleine arrive at the train station waiting.
Do you think that the McClory estate got ripped off by accepting $1 million in exchange for the rights to Blofeld and Spectre?
If that deal didn't happen, then Quantum would have had a more direct role onwards.
I also feel like this is Judi M at her best (or near best). All of her scenes are killer.
As for Judi, hard to say what is her best because she was always firing on all cylinders. The only thing I can say with ultimate confidence is that she was never better than in scenes opposite Dan. The first confrontation they have in M's flat, the tense meeting at the hotel in QoS, the very bitter but heartfelt moments they share in SF. Every movie has so many wonderful scenes with them that hit so many levels, and that's just done to not only how insanely good they both are as performers, but how good they were together. They bounce off each other so well, and you just can't look away when they share the screen together.
Her M and his Bond have far and away the most interesting and engaging dynamic of any of the other pairings in the series. I just really love how they chose to develop their relationship over the films, where Bond had to prove himself over time before she trusted him, and I've always enjoyed the strange sort of maternal spirit she has for him that grew as the movies went on. I like Mallory's line in SF, where he says she's, "sentimental" about him. She definitely has a soft spot for Bond, and maybe that's because she sympathizes with his past, knows how good he could be if he had the right tutelage (I'm thinking of how she felt about him in CR), and she probably saw a lot of herself in him. They are certainly very much of the same heart: two very principled and duty bound individuals that will fly in the face of authority and bend rules to do what needs done.
I think M finds an unlikely sort of partner in Bond, someone she can understand because he understands her. It was sweet to see how close they grew from CR to SF, from the barbed talk they have as Bond breaks into her flat to the very touching way Bond cradles her and kisses her forehead as she passes away. For a guy that didn't have a mother most of his life, she was about as close to a mother as he had, and she was with him during a more integral part of his life longer than his own mother was. Kind of striking, when you think about it, and I love that the films presented their relationship as a very strong one that still kept professional. It's endearing to see moments where Bond and M find quiet ways to show their care for one another, all while still committing themselves to retaining the professional relationship they have as "master and servant" as it were.
Bond as we know him couldn't be who he is without her, and she is up there with Mathis as being instrumental in him being the man he becomes. She truly made him who he was, the kind of man brave and selfless enough to do what he did in NTTD. I think she'd be insanely proud of him, and the man he'd become by the end. All the lessons and behaviors she nurtured in him came to fruit, and he truly went out acting as the pinnacle of what an agent should be. "Well, I did get one thing right.". Indeed.
I like that, and I can very much see it in the films we got. For all my issues with aspects of Craig's Bond and even Dench's M (I always hated the idea of Bond breaking into M's flat in CR, although not SF under the circumstances, and found the idea of M globe trotting in QOS due to Bond unintentionally comical) these ideas are very much central to their relationship. It might even somewhat explain why Craig's Bond is... well, let's be honest, a bit of a di*k to Mallory in SP and NTTD. Dench's M was always his commander in chief, even if took time for them to see eye to eye and influence each other. Dench's M was impulsive, much like Craig's Bond, a bit more sceptical of authority and the chain of command, someone who did what it took to get the job done. Mallory was a government bureaucrat - brave but ultimately a different breed, even after SF. Mallory and Craig's Bond would and could never have the same connection that our protagonist did with Dench's M. He simply didn't have that same influence on his life...
It's a shame we never got a similar arc between Mallory's M and Craig's Bond. I'd say NTTD especially dropped the ball in terms of the character's questionable morality. I'd love to see such a well thought out relationship between M and Bond in future instalments.
I never would've thought that how SF built their dynamic up-from harsh words and unprofessional conflict to respectful partnership-would revert back to those harsh words and unprofessional conflicts once again. I would love to interview the screenwriters to know how much of this was intentional, as it is one of my favorite aspects of the Craig era that isn't a main, core plot line. I love that, even in death, Bond decides to follow the orders of Judi's M over Mallory, the latter of whom takes it personally and gives Bond a torching for it. Which I can understand, as Bond didn't communicate what he was doing and was acting outside parameters, even if he was doing the right thing, which made Mallory look bad because he didn't have control over his agent. But I think Bond was in a hard spot there. Judi's M had trusted him and only him with confidential information and he didn't want anyone else to know about it, so he had to deal with her tip off on his own. He didn't trust anyone, nor did she, so it made no sense for him to spill it all to Mallory, as he still didn't fully trust him either. I don't think Mallory was used to dealing with bold operators or insubordination either, which made Dan's Bond a hard pill for him to swallow. Bond wouldn't just follow orders and march on, he'd speak his mind and do so with an arsenal of passive aggressiveness. In the SP de-briefing following Mexico Bond is very much on the defensive, and Mallory is the disapproving father chewing out his son for taking out his prized Bentley and denting it up.
As SP goes on they level out and reach a better place, but it's not the peaceful partnership as we see at the end of SF. It's more like Bond and Mallory say, "Blofeld and his threat is more important than what we've got going on right now" and they move on and do their jobs. Not so much a forgive and forget, just a "we don't have time for this right now." And we don't see any reconciliation between them as Bond leaves MI6 shortly thereafter to live a new life, possibly spurred on not just because of Madeleine, but because he lost the woman whose orders he could follow. Judi's M understood him, and knew that even at his most impulsive and daring he had the best of intentions. But Mallory wasn't used to that behavior, and took Bond's personal drive and impulsivity as reckless and untrustworthy actions. Anything Bond did, he was under the microscope, and I don't think he felt as at "home" in MI6 once his M passed. Everything changed, top down, and he just wasn't understood or treated the same after that. In many ways, M was the sort of glue that kept his job at MI6 together, a job he did because he knew he could count on who was giving him orders. With that glue gone, things gradually fell apart.
And I have to imagine that the writers behind NTTD intended for all of this to be evident, because I don't see any other reason why Mallory would be portrayed so incompetently and harshly. I have to assume that he was written such a way on purpose to convey that not only was Bond uncomfortable living under his authority, but that he wasn't the man for the job to follow in Judi's footsteps. Mallory was, as you said, not the kind of guy that makes for a good leader of agents. He's just not fit for those conditions, or for dealing with people like Bond. He also lacked the foresight and balls of steel Judi's M had, which are very much required due to how much the 00 program was in the crosshairs for being shut down. Mallory sees the 00 program collapsing and the only thing he can think to do is quote a stupid French proverb, and when Bond needs him, he just leaves him in the wind. Judi's M would've ripped C's balls off and laughed as he cried in agony and ran away. He just didn't have the fight in him, or that warrior like mindset to never give in or give up. It's telling that, when M tells Bond it's nice to have him back before the climax of SP, Bond gives the most solemn and unenthusiastic, "Sir" I've ever heard. I think by then he'd already made the decision that he was done with MI6, and lost too much respect for Mallory that he couldn't recover because when he need him, he wasn't there. Not like Dench's M would've been.
I find it ironic and stupid that Mallory, the man who fought so hard against widespread surveillance in SP was so quick to invest and nurture the creation of a virus that could be bio-engineered to eradicate any sect of human being known to man for a decade afterward. He was basically helping to create the first fully customizable genocide generator, and somehow didn't think the risks outweighed the benefits. Maybe it's bad writing, or maybe the writers intended to show Mallory in such a negative and hypocritical light. Either way, he is not a respectable character, and doesn't look too good in comparison to those around him or Dench's M that came before. I love the scene in M's office where Bond just lets him have it, because Bond says what we'd say and doesn't hold back. He's no longer a 00 so he can be even more scorching to Mallory than before due to the erosion of those professional lines. His barb, "My God you're thirsty" is third degree and Bond is on fire, standing up for himself and against a man whose decisions he can't fathom or respect. And this is where the division between he and Mallory is the most cavernous. Bond could understand, even if he couldn't accept, every decision Judi's M made. But Mallory was making calls he couldn't co-sign, and it's clear how much it bothers him. It truly says it all that when Bond was against the wall, Judi's M was always in his corner and believed in him even when being told not to, and she used Q and Moneypenny to aid in helping Bond achieve his goals. Compare that to SP and NTTD, where both times Q and Moneypenny have to go behind M's back to help Bond because their leader constantly fails them. The contrast couldn't be starker. Mallory is by far the worst M of the lot, up there with Brown's M, in my opinion. Two disappointing M's that followed in the footsteps of legends, never able to stop stumbling within their shadows.
Yes, agreed. Well written and very interesting. It's very strange that Mallory is written in SP as being so against this awful cyber technology (which ironically is very commonplace to some extent in the world we live in) and yet authorises the Heracles project, which is actually an objectively dangerous and insidious weapon. The guy should at the very least be trialed for some sort of crime. I can't see Dench's M, nor any other version of M (including the Fleming one, who was not exactly a warm character by any means) doing such a questionable and stupid thing.
It's weird rewatching SF with the POV I had when I first watched it. In a sense I was rather tired of Dench's M. Ok, I understood her relationship with Bond and felt invested in it by the end of the film. But Mallory finding that 'inspiration' and taking control of MI6, learning to trust Bond - it all felt quite optimistic in the sense that a new partnership could be forged. It felt like a new beginning. Like the M/Bond relationship from the Fleming novels, I feel there should always be that parental/son dynamic there. It's a dynamic that goes deeper than boss and employee anyway. Mallory just wasn't that figure in Craig's Bond's life. As you say by the end Bond realises this man isn't making decisions he can even comprehend anymore. He didn't share that same sense of duty, the instinct to go against orders when needed that Dench's M had.
I suspect it's a case of questionable writing (it always seemed a bit underdeveloped to me), but like you I'm not actually a fan of Fienne's M. I certainly don't want to see him return for Bond 26 in the same way that Dench did for CR as a slightly different iteration of M. It'd just feel weird. Again, if the core dynamic of that M/Bond relationship could be harnessed for the next one I'd be happy. It doesn't have to be the same one that Dench's M and Craig's Bond had, but just the sense that these two people are in this game together - Bond is M's best man and M is that constant figure in Bond's life, ideally one who has a similar sense of morality to himself.
I very much agree on what you're saying. Bond is M's golden boy, and always should be. I enjoy moments like we got with the Craig era where M is "sentimental" about him, because she knows how good he is at what he does and how much she needs him. It was nice to see a maternal variation on this dynamic in the way that the 60s films adapted the paternal aspect, where M was the stern but fair father to his rather rough and tumble but altogether good-hearted son.
One of my favorite interactions in the whole series was in QoS with Bond and Camille on the big craft heading out of the desert, where Camille asks if Bond is looking for someone who hurt his mother and he just says, "she likes to think so." Sums up their relationship pretty well.
I love that scene though. It's great to see Bond being so unrelenting and just giving it to Mallory, while Mallory is being very petty and obnoxious in return. Him calling "007" into the office while Bond makes his exit was the last little barb he could hope to shoot at a man who simply called him out on his mistakes.
I do love the little details I notice watching these scenes back. More than once Mallory is fidgeting with a black binder clip when he's in high stress, like he does before Bond enters his office and later in that scene in the hallway where he's got his head hung low and seems to be looking to the old M for guidance. He's literally and figuratively trying to "keep it together." Thought that was a nice touch, to give him a symbolic nervous tick.
I enjoy the prickliness between M and Bond in NTTD because it's so different and unexpected and tracks for me since Bond has left the service for years. I'm guessing Fiennes was happy to play a darker side of M, after he rejected being a traitor in SP.
However, I understand if maintaining the respect/deference aspect of Bond toward M's authority is all-important to a viewer that this would seem jarring.
Watching parts of that in OHMSS make me wish we could've gotten a more "in shape" (not just physically but performance wise) Connery. Imagine him and M going at it like that, after having that set up of their usual dynamic throughout the 60s. The movie as it is with the new guy just doesn't register those moments as hard as they could've, and Lazenby is no Connery. A real shame.
Part of why I enjoy the Craig era is because it was successful in doing the continuity heavy storytelling that the 60s always failed at. We had so many different Blofelds, an obnoxious barrage of different Felixs, and even a different Bond. The story just didn't cohesively fit together, and it all comes together so disappointingly from YOLT onwards after the mysterious and grave set up of SPECTRE from DN, FRWL & TB. The Craig era stumbled here and there too in setting this kind of thing up (though in fairness it's hard to plan for this kind of thing so long in advance when they didn't even think they'd get the rights to do SPECTRE again), but I think it faired very well on the whole. We got a gradual reveal of an organization with the same players on "the stage" throughout, so the events have more impact because they are happening to the same characters we know with the faces we've attached to them, and not the same characters who've had a thousand different actors behind them. We also got blessed with an insane cast of actors just firing on all cylinders and it was a helluva ride to go on.
I'm sure Fiennes enjoyed playing a more dramatically substantial M, one more in touch with what he wanted to do with the character than just making him another villain like he'd already played so many times before (and to great acclaim in Harry Potter). M being evil would've just made the memes of "Voldemort is Bond's boss" even more ridiculous in retrospect. He no doubt appreciated the ability to do more with the character than just bark orders at Bond, and I like that the dynamic he and Bond have had is called back to and developed from how it started in SF. They never find a stable point where they get on, and instead they are always on uneven footing with one another, which I think is interesting and very fitting to how it would be in reality. Mallory knows that Bond and his predecessor were very close, and he knows he'll never fill those shoes as a leader of the 00 program or as a boss to Bond like Judi's M did, and Bond knows that what he had with his M was special and won't be able to be replicated with Mallory. So these two men who know they won't ever truly earn each other's full respect just get along the best they can, for the sake of the work they're doing but little more.
I guess it's similar in the way that Bond and Madeleine's relationship worked. I think Bond knew he'd lost the true love of his life, and Madeleine knew that Vesper would always have a hold on Bond's heart that could never fade, but they made the best of their situation and strived to be as happy together as they could be, given their unique but shared dark pasts. In both cases, Bond can never get over his first.