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Stop comparing everything with Barry and his scores. Barry is unique. He has his own sound, his love themes are beyond any comparison, I really think it was his strongest part in almost any of his score. He is my favorite composer, and OHMSS is my favorite Bond score, and one of my favorite scores overall. As much as I love Thomas Newman, his sound isn't the same as Barry's. And, you know what? It shouldn't be. I don't want copycats.
I believe there's a thematic cohesion, and I find Skyfall quite recognizable from the first second the tune starts to play.
(I really like Serra's work in GoldenEye BTW, that score is so underrated)
I'm not comparing everything to Barry, I'm using his scores as an example because he created the 'format' of a Bond score, the same way Ken Adam was largely responsible for the 'aesthetic' of the films. Nowhere in my comments did I say Newman should sound like Barry, you've just fabricated that angle. That's precisely why I used GE as a reference, because the sound is not even close to Barry, but Serra adhered to the format of a Bond score by incorporating a distinctive, cohesive sound that is littered throughout. A Bond score should be a character in its own right, they don't function like normal film scores.
When you say, ' I find Skyfall quite recognizable from the first second the tune starts to play' are you referring to the Adele theme.
I did not really hear that in Arnold's scores though. I just heard noisey loud hard on the eardrums jumbled mess for the most part, with some exceptions, which is why I am not a proponent of his.
Martin, Hamlisch, even Conti (whose disco ridden action score I absolutely detest) had thematic consistency, as did Serra's score (which I actually like a lot more than Arnold's work precisely because there is creative thematic consistency). I agree that Newman's was lacking that a little in SF, but his sound was distinctive enough and different enough from Arnold that I did find an element of coherence in it personally, if also a level of timidity inappropriate for Bond.
Agree. The only thing of Serra's GE score is the ""Ladies First" track, which IMO is silly (but then that's just me?). And Martin Campbell apparently did not like Serra's Tank Chase score, other wise he would not have it rescored by John Altman. But still like Arnolod's TND, CR and QOS score. But then again it's just me.
The people bought the SF quite a lot if I´m not mistaken, so I guess they like it.
My personal evaluation has nothing to do with Barry. I´d have loved it if Eric Serra would have scored a row of Bond films. I like Arnold´s scores quite a lot, because, even though on a certain level he may be a hack, he consistently managed to put joy and excitement into his scores. SF´s score isn´t bad on the whole, but especially the action pieces are blander than anything Arnold ever produced. Perhaps I say that because the music is more introverted than it was in other films. Perhaps it even accords to Fleming´s Bond more than other scores. But the simple fact is, it doesn´t feel as good as almost every other Bond score to me.
SF has the additional problem that the CD presentation is lousy, with lots of cuts to the tracks, and some of the best bits missing. DAD had a similar problem, which got solved by the not-sure-how-official release of the double album containing the full score :-).
Those are all no proof whatsoever that something good comes out of it.
Having said that, I´m looking forward to enjoying the result ;-)!
And, considering the subdued lighting we saw in the SP trailer, I can understand why Mendes doesn´t want David Pyro Arnold for the music :P.
Arnold was consistent in his inconsistensty. He had so many thematic changes throughout one longer scene that it was consistent as a jumble. Newman on the other hand put in several cues which by themselves were consistent, but work against glueing the whole scene together because several totally different thematical ideas follow one another. E.g. the Shanghai skyscraper scene.
I totally agree with you on the timidity part.
No, it´s not just you, @DoctorKaufmann, everybody likes Arnold´s scores :P .
I´m not sure if it was more Campbell or the producers who insisted on the brass Bond theme stuff during the tank chase scene, but, as much as I love Serra´s track on CD, I think in the film it would have been too much like a French comedy.
No, you may not be, but most Bond fans do compare every single score to those of Barry's. And the first three films you chose were Barry's. That's the main reason for me to say that.
When I say that I mean any part of the score. Specially Grand Bazaar, Istanbul, which has some echoes in other action piece tracks in this film.
Both very good cues. However, if you play these 2 cues to people who have never watched a Bond film, or are not very knowledgeable about the franchise, nearly everyone will say the first track is 'definately a James Bond track', as for the Skyfall one, they won't be as sure of themselves to give the same answer.
Barry was so good that non-Bond fan can tell it's James Bond music, and casual fan can even tell which outing some of his compositions come from.
The TLD track exemplifies the idea of creating a recurring motif that isn't related to the main theme, but a secondary one. It's also astonishingly brilliant and, although we're not allowed to use Barry as a yardstick apparently, it makes Grand Bazaar (which I happen to think is decent) sound totally underwhelming. Newman doesn't need to copy Barry, but if he can stir the same feeling in me that I get listening to that TLD track he's cracked it. Essentially that's what it boils to for me, SF lacked the soul that all the best Bond scores have in abundance.
Even Arnold did this with TND, interweaving cues from Surrender as part of the overall score. People can list Newman's accolades and body if work all day every day but he completely dropped the ball with SF and the man needs to step up his game...immensely.
Well said. For the most part, I agree.
However, as has been noted on this page, one can still create a suitable score without aping Barry. In fact, from my perspective, any composer must do this in order to create something lasting for Bond. Like Roger Moore successfully followed Sean Connery, one cannot and must not copy a master, especially in the creative arena.......one must bring one's own approach to the table. This is where David Arnold failed me miserably.
Martin (did it best), Hamlisch, Conti (even though I dislike his score immensely), Kamen, and Serra all had the longed for thematic consistency in their scores. Even though I liked some of their work better than others, I always felt like I was listening to a Bond score in all cases (yes, even Serra).
With Arnold, I always felt like I was listening to a hack. A fan boy without the skills of the master who was embarrassing himself (for the most part) with his plagiarism. For me, this was because he did not bring enough new to the table, and what he did well was still clearly inferior to the person who he was obviously imitating, respectfully or not. That is the risk one takes when one tries to emulate someone else creatively.
With Newman, I heard great potential, but it did not come together properly. There were elements of greatness there but it felt unfinished. Like something that had not been 'honed' (similar to how QoS creatively had the potential to be much better as a film for me..., but frustratingly was not pulled together properly in the editing/cutting area and so seemed somewhat unfinished). That's why I keep saying, if he has the time to pull it together, we should expect something very good from him, but make no mistake.......it will not be as good as Barry by any means. That TLD clip above sadly confirms that there will never be another Barry.
I'll say it once more. There's no one like Barry. Nobody. Nadie. Persone. Inor. Niemand. Stop comparing what can't be compared. However, I did like more Skyfall than The Living Daylights (not Barry's best work for the series). My top 10, as I voted in the other thread.
12 POINTS: ON HER MAJESTY'S SECRET SERVICE
10 POINTS: MOONRAKER
08 POINTS: FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE
07 POINTS: DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER
06 POINTS: YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE
05 POINTS: THUNDERBALL
04 POINTS: OCTOPUSSY
03 POINTS: SKYFALL
02 POINTS: LIVE AND LET DIE
01 POINT: FOR YOUR EYES ONLY
That ending contains some notes of the Bond theme. I am talking about that SF track and removing all the notes that reminds of the Bond theme. 'Inflight Fight' is instantly recognizable as Bondian despite not containing a single note reminiscent of the Bond theme.
All I'm saying is you don't need to ape Barry like Arnold did in order to make a great soundtrack that as a bonus is identifiable as Bondian. Hamlish and Martin did so brilliantly even though their work sound nothing like John Barry. Newman did not try to ape Barry so it was a welcome change from Arnold (even though I do like several tracks from Arnold), but IMO he failed to make his work truely Bondian.
The ending is part of the track. And you didn't specify the first time and just said that no one would recognize it as a track from a Bond score. If you remove the end, I still believe it's classy enough to think of it as Bond score. In fact, this track tells us a story, as I said before. It tells us that the story is happening somewhere in the middle east (without knowing the title), that it's an in crescendo action piece, and that at the centre of it we've got Bond doing something bondian, so to speak.
I did not mean to say that he stole from Barry. What I meant to say is that, for the most part (there are always exceptions) most people like the tracks that Arnold did which are the most like Barry (I mentioned Night at the Opera and African Rundown before). Those tracks are definitely creatively aping the Barry sound, and very consciously.
That's different from the other Bond composers, who most people tend to like because of the unique sound they brought to the franchise, albeit ever so briefly, rather than the tracks they did which sounded like Barry (in fact, none of them really tried to sound like Barry to me....they were all very creative and unique).
For me Arnold had his chance and was average at best....he evoked Barry but was clearly inferior, which was just not on for me. The jury is still out on Newman as far as I'm concerned. It was a promising start with lots of unfulfilled potential. I am waiting for him to realize this potential with SP.