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I'm not saying people who watch dubbed movies are idiots; I'm saying the fact of dubbing them is silly. Let's face it, most films we watch here in Western-Europe, either on television or in cinemas, are made in the UK or USA. Every once in a while a native film or an Asian, Russian, Indian, ... film slips in, but English films dominate our catalogues here in France, Germany, Belgium, ... Our educational systems consider English important enough to include English lessons in our schools. I know I sat through years and years of English training in school, besides my courses in Dutch, French and a tiny morsel of German. Because of this, most not-too-old mainlanders in Western-Europe most likely have at least some basic understanding of English. It certainly helps, when you're a film freak like myself, to sit through hours and hours of English movies. One automatically picks up words, grammar rules, pronunciation, ... Thanks to that, I had a pretty easy time getting through English class. So I wonder why in some countries every bit of English is removed from an English movie, including the title (!), while kids are taught English in school! That's like taking away one of the best ways for them to learn the language. Reading books in English works well too, but then one doesn't hear the language, which is at least as important as reading it.
Perhaps I'm being way too modest in the sense that I don't give my own native language, Dutch, much 'weight' on a global scale. I know no chauvinism, rather a lack thereof. I understood from a very early age that the world of music, comics, films and video games would present itself to me in English more than anything else, so I never objected to coming in contact with English as often as I could, learning as much as I could. It might be different in other countries, I don't know, where people have much more of a protective attitude towards their own language and cultural identity. After all, Americans are even willing to remake perfectly fine, recent movies if for no other reason than only because they refuse dubs and subs. That's not much better either IMO.
I'd agree that subs are easily ignored, and they don't really bother me, but I often find that most of my Belgian friends & colleagues DO miss out on subtle visual details every now and then because they are spending too much time reading the lines instead of focusing on the essential part of the screen. Especially on larger cinema screens.
Thank you, sir. I'm sure that comes from watching all those movies. ;-)
Fair enough, @AceHole. But would you prefer dubbed movies over the original version? ;-)
Then this is a bit a paradox, as you're talking mostly about blockbusters and Hollywood then : mostly movies with not much talking, a generic simple international English said without any accent, plots that are spelled out three times in case you miss it because you're going to the toilets when it's shown on syndicated TV, etc, etc.
I agree that for movies that are not demanding, that are crowd pleasers, you can go with the subtitles. And ironically, you can go with dubbing too, because this is not really a theater play.
But for other movies, movies that are very talkative, movies in languages you don't understand, movies where the framing is very elaborate, movies with super strong accents that makes you realize you're not bilingual, etc.. it's far from obvious subtitles are always the superior option. Those who watched Grand Budapest Hotel with me are not from the blockbusters fan crowd and yet we decided the framing in this movie was more important than the words. The movie we watched after was a Japan movie from 1954, it looks like a caricature but it was the truth (I confess I already forgot the director though :) ).
Well, personnally, from years of discussing about this topic, first I've concluded there's quite some snobbery on it : talk about the fact that subtitles miss 30% of the information in talkative movies, and some people go .. what ? it's not perfect ?! nobody told me ! I can't believe it !
And second, yes, I think that some who hate dubbing (yes, hate), have a problem with their perception of their own language/culture... I think they somehow consider it inferior to Hollywood.
Even the use of the word "protective" sounds like it is a problem, as if they were closed and less open than others...
Could an American movie made with actors with a strong Texan accent be produced these days ? I think an American actor with a strong accent in a Michael Bay movie is as rare as a black actor in a Woody Allen movie.
Hollywood is not making movies about Americans, it's making movies about a kind of worldwide culture, sometimes for the best (a lead character won't be a racist or homophobic character unless it's driving the plot, etc), sometimes for the worst (but he'll often be bland for everything then..)
About Pulp Fiction, here's an excerpt from the French dubbed version. I consider it very good. It's different from the original, obviously, but the lead voices have strong characterizations. It's a different experience, but it's not a bland experience.
Dubbing just does not work for films where the original language and it’s culture are so intrinsic to the whole piece that it falls apart when translated. Can you imagine La Haine or Pierrot le fou working in English? Or German?? Saperlipopette..!
Case in point: anything by Tarantino (I find it rather ironic that you used that as a good example of successful dubbing…), Mike Leigh, Ken Loach or intricately written American drama like ‘The Wire’ - just doesn’t work when dubbed. At all.
Sure - Spielberg, Superhero flicks and most of your lowest-common denominator fare like ‘Bones’ and ‘Grey’s anatomy’ will do fine in any language. They are universal.
But you cannot translate Secrets & Lies any more than you can translate Baudelaire.
This is not a generalized defense of dubbing, this is a defense of dubbing.
Bad dubbing exists, obviously, and the key point is that bad subtitling exist too, but it's almost never ever talked about.
Well, give me something that is "sometimes good, sometimes bad" (dubbing), and I'll tell you then there's probably some artistic value in it. And then give me "something that's always good" (subtitiling as it is considered by many), and I'll tell you "really ? have you really thought about it ?".
This remark can be applied to subtitling as well as dubbing.
And I even dare to say that subtitling's translations are even worse than dubbing's translation overall. I did not make a thesis on the subject, but turn on at the same time the dubbing and the subtitling next time you watch a talkative movie, and you may be very surprised (I did this for The Sting, and was blown away by how much the French subtitles only scratched the surface of what was being said by the French dubbers)
Consider the Pulp Fiction except above not like a French translation, but like a French *adaptation*. US Audiences need American actors to have their US adaptations of foreign movies. Here we can have French adaptation with the American actors. I think the former is more a sign of closed-mindedness than the latter, frankly, despite comments about the contrary.
Sure, but being French (I'm assuming?) you are used to the dubbing. That is a critical point, I feel.
As are Germans, Italians and the Spanish. If you've not grown up with it then I would say that subtitling is the 'lesser of the two evils' because it allows you to grasp the feel & tone of the original format.
I'm not saying I am a better judge in this matter per se, but I'm in a somewhat unique situation of having grown up trilingual English/German/Dutch - hence I've watched many films in all formats without having to rely on any of the mediums of translation but still being able to use them, if you see what I mean.
So for instance I’ve seen Reservoir Dogs in the original (sans subs) version / dubbed in German / subtitled in Dutch (and French, simultaneously) for the Belgian market, and I experienced each version respectively in the same way as those for whom it was meant.
Interestingly the Danish, Swedish and Norwegians don't dub English language films - even though their languages are perhaps even further removed from English than any of the aforementioned…
Exact translation isn't possible either way, but subs at least don’t mess up the original i.m.o
Do you mean I'm more open-minded about it than others ? It definitely looks so :) But there are French who just can't stand dubbing too, don't worry. But I dare to call some of them snobs when I listen to what they say. Many of them claim to be bilingual, but they only know Hollywood English...
And what is the state of Danish, Swedish and Norwegian cinema ? For one Troll Hunter or Headhunters, how many movies per year to make the industry live there ?
Big blank letters don't mess up with the frame, really ? And this for only a part of what's being really said ?
I don't feel like I need to find an eye-gazing direction study to "prove" that the eyes do not look at a subtitled movie the same way as a movie as it was intended to be seen, frankly. Look at Grand Budapest Hotel with subtitles on the bottom of the image, and tell me it doesn't mess up what Wes Anderson had in mind...
So it's not trivial at all it's always superior IMO.
I also note that those who answer that dubbing is bad here are bilingual or trilingual.. Hardly the usual moviegoer.
By the way, do you know how one calls someone who speaks only one language ?
I speak and understand three languages where I do not need any dubbing and can follow French fairly well and do not mind a decent sub. But I do realize that subtitles rarely touches on the real subtlety of jokes or cultural matters. In those situations the movie/tv industry does not mind dubbing as it adds to an audience and they themselves do actively participate in the dubbing.
For me dubbing and subs are all about accessibility of a medium, if it works for the audience I am all in favour of it. You cannot say which is better that is something the viewers decide in quantity.
I still prefer my Bus Spencer & Terrence Hill movies in German dubbing as I grew up with those and they still make laugh hard. The same applies to the Fernandel movies concerning the Don Camillo movies which I have always watched in German. I bought the dvd set and found the original dubbing with subs less satisfying and bought he German boxset instead.
Perhaps an acquired taste but a good professional dub can make a movie enjoyable for a for a bigger audience that would have ignored the movie otherwise.
ANd the dubbed Asian fight-movies are a subculture all on its own and will always be able to count me as a fan. They are brilliant in their awefullness.
Darn that made me laugh out loud :D
Yes, the Germans absolutely LOVE those movies. Only in Germany & Austria are they still shown with astounding regularity, they have been all but forgotten by the rest of the world...
@Suivez_ce_parachute, First of all, I'm terribly sorry for he delay. I guess I lost track of this thread in May and just today discovered your post. I apologise. :-)
But that clip is horrendous, sir, HORRENDOUS! It's vomit inducing. Travolta's distinct voice and Jackson's distinct voice, now replaced by some unknown... I'm going all bug eyes on this. They do a fairly good job with the lip-sync but it still sounds wrong. I think Pulp Fiction, I hear Jackson. The experience I got from this clip is terrifying. People actually sit through the entire film and think they have watched Pulp Fiction? Without hearing those very unique voices? I feel sorry for those people. :(
In truth, I don't think my language/culture is inferior to Hollywood. I do, however, think that a product delivered by Hollywood should not be "assimilated" by my culture. Subs can be switched on or off; I have that choice. But a kid in France watching Pulp Fiction in French doesn't get the genuine product and is robbed from a good chance to learn English during his formative years.
Cunning linguist, then..?
But I think most French viewers will tell you it's a very good example of good French dubbing.. The dubbers do good lip-sync and the voices carry very expressive intonations. The dubbers are actors of their own. I'm afraid for instance Bond movies since the 90s have so generic dubbers it's as if they were cast in order to be so. Brosnan IIRC was better dubbed in Remington Steele !
Mimicking the original's voices is the wrong way to go IMO, except in some specific cases.
I read "purity is important" when I read this sentence. Culture is all about mixing on the contrary, IMO.
"The Persuaders" are very popular in France and in Germany because the dubbing is famously quite different sometimes from the original. When the US vs UK accent is lost in translation, they had to do something different.
The 200-words easy English without any accent that Hollywood uses (because of the international market) is not real English ! IMO English is being du(m)bbed down in the movies because it must be understood by most. This is not a good result. "Licence Revoked" a too complex title, oh come on... And Mickey Mouse in SPECTRE ! They even had to change 009's musical taste in the movie because probably in the script it was a bit too specific to UK (Dusty Springfield) ! Now 009 likes one of the most US symbolic piece of music ever...
Oh come one, @Suivez_ce_parachute, this is all wrong. When you say that mimicking the original's voice is the wrong way, you're basically telling me it's okay to take some guy's painting and brush up the colouring here and there. The way I see it you just don't care about how an actor's voice sounds. Iconic voices like Connery's, Sam Jackson's, Craig's... they mean nothing to you? I don't need some dude, no matter how skilled or talented in his own right, pasting his voice over the original ones. You have no idea how much of a film you lose when you mess with that. It gives me nightmares to think that someone else would chew out Ford's lines in Blade Runner (and in another lingo!), that someone else does Homer Simpson's voice (and in another lingo!) It's wrong. It's like asking your kindly old grandpa to sing Sinatra and pretend it's the real thing. An actor's voice is half his performance.
The movies with dumbed down English don't account for all movies. There are a lot of movies out there where the accents matter, even some big Hollywood films. Still, that's entirely besides the point. Better to hear some English than none at all.
In fact, no matter what I'm watching, I always enjoy having subtitles on.
Yes, once you are in a situation where your brain does not react to what he says instantly, you're in a mode where you will never really benefit from the actor's vocal performance, even if you think the contrary (and it's even truer for comedies IMO). So whatever happen next, you're in for another stuff. Some prefer another voice that tells all the lines, rather than subtitles that remove 30% of them in talkative movies, and that destroys the frame (cinema is a visual medium). I dont think they're "obviously" wrong. There are pros and cons.
I can understand what Craig says (at least in his mainstream movies where all the words are simple), but do I care about the voice of some actor in a Japanese movie ? Well, IMO in a language you don't understand, your brain feels like all voices start to sound the same, and you only notice what is overplayed. So I don't feel cheated to have something else, since I won't have the original performance in the first place.
The Bond movies are full of dubbed actors. And arguably one of the most iconic villain lines ("No Mr Bond, I expect you to die") is a dubbed one. And well, it's a bit because of the bad reputation of dubbing that many fans do not know the name of Michael Collins, even though they quote him repeatedly. And what about Lazenby himself, dubbed in his own language ?? And shall we mention Nikky van der Zyl ? A touchy topic here :) Dubbing is a touchy topic :)
That's why when someone is dubbed, I prefer an actor's voice who performs something, rather than someone trying to mimic the original voice, a recipe for disaster except for some very successful examples.
The Simpson is another case of very successful dubbing here, that may make you probably cry again :)
What do you think of the fact that dubbed and subtitled movies are almost nil in the land of Hollywood ? Là bas, un film français va être vanté par les snobs, mais il n'a aucune chance de faire la moindre carrière. Quant aux films néerlandais, je ne peux même pas citer un exemple sauf Spoorloos, et heureusement qu'il y avait des français pour le co-produire celui-là :) It looks like a one-sided approach...
I watch a lot of French movies and wouldn't dream of having it in any other language. ;-) By the way, Spoorloos is not the kind of programs I watch. ;-)
Nothing wrong with 'Spoorloos'. The Dutch do human-interest docu's like no other nation...
I agree. It goes both ways. I would hate to miss out on Richard Burton's or Humphrey Bogart's voices as much as I would hate to miss out on Alain Delon's or Marcello Mastroianni's voices. Dubbing is raping.
Amen to that, @GoldenGun!
Once again, amen to that.
Very much so. Cinema is so much more than English language films. I would encourage everyone who loves this form of art to broaden their horizon, if they haven't already, and dive into the wonders of foreign language cinema.
Let's not forget many groundbreaking classics are in Italian, Russian, French, Japanese, German, Swedish, etc.
Generally, I prefer subtitles to dubbing, as subs allow one to have a larger feel for the actors. That said, however, I’m not certain that my 7-8-year-old self would have become such a huge fan of these movies if I had to “read” as I watched. Worse still, I miss the specific dubbing that was done for the US market and all of its’ little unintended humor. Toho’s standard international edition dubs – that they now require to be used when these movies are issued on DVD - have always struck me as being “flat” and dull.
A lot of Scandinavian crime series have been really big hits in the UK recently and all of them just had subtitles. Hearing the original language is seen as part of the appeal. Ditto, no one would want to see a French film dubbed with English voices. It's just regarded as no longer the done thing.