Would Bond have survived & thrived into the 21st Century without Brosnan?

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  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,801
    Getafix wrote: »
    I think the actor was of almost no import whatsoever.
    Nope. Dalton was great, but his movies under-performed financially due to his relative unknown popular status & lack of BIG motion picture production.
    At that time, Bond was supposed to be event, not character study.
    You cannot have gone into GE with ZERO expectations, my friend. :))
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,217
    chrisisall wrote: »
    @talos7 you summed up in four sentences all that I hoped this thread would make clear to the BHB* here. Thanks.

    *Brosnan Hate Brigade

    My pleasure ;)


  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    Let's just make it clear. Would it? Wouldn't it have? Well, it did thrive WITH Brosnan, anyway. And debating over it won't change it, whether you like him or not in the role. He just did, and he performed his role in four films (plus a video game with full acting performance), becoming a very big part of the franchise. Loads of new fans were recruited, his adult comic book adventures provided the audience, the average cinema goer with entertainment. And believe me, when Die Another Day came out, the majority of the people loved it, including me, and I still do wholeheartedly. Where did that large amount of money come from? The sky? That just sums it all up.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,718
    You have to remember that right after DAD, almost everyone on the old mi6 forums wanted Brosnan back for a 5th one. So he still was popular with DAD. It took a good 2 years or so until people started to think a recast was in order, especially when Bourne Supremacy was in cinemas.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    That's the whole thing. Bond evolves with the current times that go in tandem with the series. Bourne was the popularity among the film industry back then as well as the verisimilitude mould of Nolan's Batman films, and The Bond series drifted into that. In the 90s, the video-game OTT-inspired action flicks influenced the cinema, that's where Brosnan's films come in. Compared to some action films that are made during the era, the Brosnan films are extremely clever. Heck, Tomorrow Never Dies alone was ahead of its time, concentrating on a media mogul dominating the world, which is what the society has become today, the world itself.
  • Posts: 11,189
    Well I do remember Brosnan being an extremely popular Bond at the time -despite being 10/11 and a teenager during his run.

    I loved him growing up and was literally obsessed with GE for many many years. It's still one of my favourites.

    Now, having seen some of his pre-Bond films (Taffin, Death Train, Live Wire) I do find myself wondering if I'd have had the same love for him had I been a bit older and known a bit more then about him. I do know a 50 something work colleague though who (back in the 80s and 90s) championed for him - and she is English. He's still her fav Bond even now.

    Personally I don't think Brosnan's performance in GE is "dreadful". His performance in Taffin? Now THAT is dreadful. In GE he's at least more restrained and sprightly if a bit uncomfortable.
  • edited April 2015 Posts: 11,425
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    I think the actor was of almost no import whatsoever.
    Nope. Dalton was great, but his movies under-performed financially due to his relative unknown popular status & lack of BIG motion picture production.
    At that time, Bond was supposed to be event, not character study.
    You cannot have gone into GE with ZERO expectations, my friend. :))

    My point was about Brosnan in the UK where he was less known than Dalton. Everyone was excited about Bond coming back but I don't think anyone really knew anything about Brosnan.

    I had high expectations of the film but not knowing anything about Brosnan I didn't really have any view on him. He was a total unknown to me .
  • Posts: 11,189
    I get the sense Brosnan in the 80s and 90s had a similar career to Kurt Russell back then (I.e. starring in fairly forgettable B-movies).
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Ultimately, would Bond have survived? Yes.

    Would he have thrived (either financially or critically)? Eventually, yes, because he is Bond and there is always a market for Bond.

    However, would he have thrived financially during the troubled EON/MGM 90's as effectively without PB? I'm not sure. Probably not. Due mainly to his pre-ordained & chosen status as has been mentioned before and because he probably was the right Bond for a 'risk free' run.

    PB was necessary to keep the boat afloat during that difficult transition time. However, what made his run financially successful also doomed it from a critical standpoint. Once the series was re-established financially, and they began to refocus critically again, a new actor had to be cast.
  • Posts: 11,189
    I remember Brosnan's films having a reasonably decent response critically.

    @bondjames should look up The Daily Mail's review of TWINE.
  • Posts: 97
    Yes he would. The big deal wasn't that Brosnan was going to play Bond; the big deal was that Bond was back. And whilst Brosnan is a thoroughly adequate Bond (being something of a mixture of all the Bonds who went before), it was GoldenEye's success as a crowd-pleasing action-adventure which showed OO7 could survive without the Cold War that's allowed him to thrive to the present day.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited April 2015 Posts: 23,883
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    I remember Brosnan's films having a reasonably decent response critically.

    @bondjames should look up The Daily Mail's review of TWINE.

    I do remember the reviews @BAIN123. I remember positive reviews for both TWINE & DAD.

    They were wrong imho. Many were wrong. TWINE & DAD were not great (putting it mildly).
  • ThomasCrown76ThomasCrown76 Augusta, ks
    Posts: 757
    Brosnan finally getting his shot at bond was the selling point. Casting unknown Shakespearean actor Thomas tittiesworth, or whoever, would not have worked as well
  • edited April 2015 Posts: 11,425
    Brosnan finally getting his shot at bond was the selling point. Casting unknown Shakespearean actor Thomas tittiesworth, or whoever, would not have worked as well

    As I said before, this is a very US-centric view. Brosnan did not have much of a profile in the UK. Fortunately casting is no longer dictated by the US box office, otherwise Craig would never have got the job.
  • Posts: 1,548
    Jason Isaacs would have made a great Bond imo. Still would. Reminds me very much of Tim Dalton.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,801
    LeChiffre wrote: »
    Jason Isaacs would have made a great Bond imo. Still would. Reminds me very much of Tim Dalton.
    In the silly Jackie Chan movie "The Tuxedo" he plays a mock Bond character, and very well I might add. That was when I realized he'd have made a perfect Bond. Tan pis.

  • Posts: 11,425
    Yes, don't know Isaacs very well but from what I've seen he looks like he'd have been decent .

    Actually though, what you can't take away from Brosnan is his commercial success. He made lots of money for EON.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,801
    Getafix wrote: »
    He made lots of money for EON.
    And he had such great hair...
    pierce-brosnan-james-bond.jpg
  • Posts: 11,119
    I've said it before, star power and Pierce Brosnan were words that hardly went hand-in-hand by 1994. In the eyes of much of the general public Brosnan was a TV hasbeen from the eighties who the masses wanted as Bond but they wanted it 8 years ago when Brosnan had been more relevant. Before anyone accuses me of Brosnan bashing, I'm not bashing him. I'm merely stating that the early 90s was not a great period for him. He wasn't as famous as he once was or would be again after GE.

    In my opinion audiences were so starved for a Bond film by 1995 that any number of actors could've been cast and GE would've been a hit.

    I mostly agree. But I also think Brosnan got helped/didn't get helped.....by a producers duo who were still in the process of fine-tuning the franchise. I think the Barbara & Michael from the 1990's were different from the 2000's/2010's, in that they had to fill the great shoes of their (step)father "Cubby". Because of that they unconsciously created a set of Bond films that were very formularic and devoid of any real creative risks. It was as if "Cubby" was still alive at times.

    The result was a working environment that was most suitable for Pierce Brosnan. He accepted that completely. Real creative ideas from his side? I find them hard to find. Brosnan's interviews and press conferences from the 1990's clearly show that. It was as if Brosnan's body language constantly was: "Yeah baby, I love being Bond. I just do what they tell me to do!" And that's it.

    After DAD this changed completely. Barbara and Michael set out their own plan. "Cubby" will always be a source of inspiration for them, but from that time onwards it felt more like "Dear Cubby, we're going to do it our way now".

    Maybe I sound silly, maybe not. But that's how I feel about it :-). The Brosnan-films combined the best of all previous Bond films and Bond actors, without getting too risky.....creatively. They have that "Cubby"-style, production-wise. Nothing wrong with that.
  • edited April 2015 Posts: 2,015
    Getafix wrote: »
    As I said before, this is a very US-centric view. Brosnan did not have much of a profile in the UK.

    Well I can say he was popular in France with Remington Steele. And I mean, more popular that Dalton after two Bonds. That's why I think he was a bit doomed, here a lot of people expected that Bond would be Remington Steele:The Movie somehow. With a kind of self-deprecating humour he was very good at, but in the end the Bond team simply didn't want that. Yes Bond was called a dinosaur by M, but Brosnan's Bond did not took the comment with self-deprecating humour at all...

  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    chrisisall wrote: »
    LeChiffre wrote: »
    Jason Isaacs would have made a great Bond imo. Still would. Reminds me very much of Tim Dalton.
    In the silly Jackie Chan movie "The Tuxedo" he plays a mock Bond character, and very well I might add. That was when I realized he'd have made a perfect Bond. Tan pis.
    *Cough* My username is named after that character. *Cough* :))
  • edited April 2015 Posts: 1,778
    I've said it before, star power and Pierce Brosnan were words that hardly went hand-in-hand by 1994. In the eyes of much of the general public Brosnan was a TV hasbeen from the eighties who the masses wanted as Bond but they wanted it 8 years ago when Brosnan had been more relevant. Before anyone accuses me of Brosnan bashing, I'm not bashing him. I'm merely stating that the early 90s was not a great period for him. He wasn't as famous as he once was or would be again after GE.

    In my opinion audiences were so starved for a Bond film by 1995 that any number of actors could've been cast and GE would've been a hit.

    I mostly agree. But I also think Brosnan got helped/didn't get helped.....by a producers duo who were still in the process of fine-tuning the franchise. I think the Barbara & Michael from the 1990's were different from the 2000's/2010's, in that they had to fill the great shoes of their (step)father "Cubby". Because of that they unconsciously created a set of Bond films that were very formularic and devoid of any real creative risks. It was as if "Cubby" was still alive at times.

    The result was a working environment that was most suitable for Pierce Brosnan. He accepted that completely. Real creative ideas from his side? I find them hard to find. Brosnan's interviews and press conferences from the 1990's clearly show that. It was as if Brosnan's body language constantly was: "Yeah baby, I love being Bond. I just do what they tell me to do!" And that's it.

    After DAD this changed completely. Barbara and Michael set out their own plan. "Cubby" will always be a source of inspiration for them, but from that time onwards it felt more like "Dear Cubby, we're going to do it our way now".

    Maybe I sound silly, maybe not. But that's how I feel about it :-). The Brosnan-films combined the best of all previous Bond films and Bond actors, without getting too risky.....creatively. They have that "Cubby"-style, production-wise. Nothing wrong with that.

    You don't sound silly at all. I had pretty much the same reading of the situation. With the Brosnan Era for the first time since the inception of the series EON was a ship without its Captain. And Michael Wilson and Barbara Brocolli were the first officers who had to step up and not only man the helm but do so after 6 1/2 years of inactivity. That'd be intimidating for anyone. So as a response they stuck to what was familiar and what they knew from their days working with Cubby. By the mid 2000s they had the confidence to do what they wanted following 4 financially successful films and a decade of leading EON. But back in 1994 it wouldn't have suprised me if they were too afraid to stray away from the Bond formula.

  • Posts: 11,119
    I've said it before, star power and Pierce Brosnan were words that hardly went hand-in-hand by 1994. In the eyes of much of the general public Brosnan was a TV hasbeen from the eighties who the masses wanted as Bond but they wanted it 8 years ago when Brosnan had been more relevant. Before anyone accuses me of Brosnan bashing, I'm not bashing him. I'm merely stating that the early 90s was not a great period for him. He wasn't as famous as he once was or would be again after GE.

    In my opinion audiences were so starved for a Bond film by 1995 that any number of actors could've been cast and GE would've been a hit.

    I mostly agree. But I also think Brosnan got helped/didn't get helped.....by a producers duo who were still in the process of fine-tuning the franchise. I think the Barbara & Michael from the 1990's were different from the 2000's/2010's, in that they had to fill the great shoes of their (step)father "Cubby". Because of that they unconsciously created a set of Bond films that were very formularic and devoid of any real creative risks. It was as if "Cubby" was still alive at times.

    The result was a working environment that was most suitable for Pierce Brosnan. He accepted that completely. Real creative ideas from his side? I find them hard to find. Brosnan's interviews and press conferences from the 1990's clearly show that. It was as if Brosnan's body language constantly was: "Yeah baby, I love being Bond. I just do what they tell me to do!" And that's it.

    After DAD this changed completely. Barbara and Michael set out their own plan. "Cubby" will always be a source of inspiration for them, but from that time onwards it felt more like "Dear Cubby, we're going to do it our way now".

    Maybe I sound silly, maybe not. But that's how I feel about it :-). The Brosnan-films combined the best of all previous Bond films and Bond actors, without getting too risky.....creatively. They have that "Cubby"-style, production-wise. Nothing wrong with that.

    You don't sound silly at all. I had pretty much the same reading of the situation. With the Brosnan Era for the first time since the inception of the series EON was a ship without its Captain. And Michael Wilson and Barbara Brocolli were the first officers who had to step up and not only man the helm but do so after 6 1/2 years of inactivity. That'd be intimidating for anyone. So as a response they stuck to what was familiar and what they knew from their days working with Cubby. By the mid 2000s they had the confidence to do what they wanted following 4 financially successful films and a decade of leading EON. But back in 1994 it wouldn't have suprised me if they were too afraid to stray away from the Bond formula.

    It is very interesting to see though. And for me it's good to see how Michael Wilson and Barbara Broccoli now fully "own" the franchise from a creative point of view.
  • Posts: 1,778
    I've said it before, star power and Pierce Brosnan were words that hardly went hand-in-hand by 1994. In the eyes of much of the general public Brosnan was a TV hasbeen from the eighties who the masses wanted as Bond but they wanted it 8 years ago when Brosnan had been more relevant. Before anyone accuses me of Brosnan bashing, I'm not bashing him. I'm merely stating that the early 90s was not a great period for him. He wasn't as famous as he once was or would be again after GE.

    In my opinion audiences were so starved for a Bond film by 1995 that any number of actors could've been cast and GE would've been a hit.

    I mostly agree. But I also think Brosnan got helped/didn't get helped.....by a producers duo who were still in the process of fine-tuning the franchise. I think the Barbara & Michael from the 1990's were different from the 2000's/2010's, in that they had to fill the great shoes of their (step)father "Cubby". Because of that they unconsciously created a set of Bond films that were very formularic and devoid of any real creative risks. It was as if "Cubby" was still alive at times.

    The result was a working environment that was most suitable for Pierce Brosnan. He accepted that completely. Real creative ideas from his side? I find them hard to find. Brosnan's interviews and press conferences from the 1990's clearly show that. It was as if Brosnan's body language constantly was: "Yeah baby, I love being Bond. I just do what they tell me to do!" And that's it.

    After DAD this changed completely. Barbara and Michael set out their own plan. "Cubby" will always be a source of inspiration for them, but from that time onwards it felt more like "Dear Cubby, we're going to do it our way now".

    Maybe I sound silly, maybe not. But that's how I feel about it :-). The Brosnan-films combined the best of all previous Bond films and Bond actors, without getting too risky.....creatively. They have that "Cubby"-style, production-wise. Nothing wrong with that.

    You don't sound silly at all. I had pretty much the same reading of the situation. With the Brosnan Era for the first time since the inception of the series EON was a ship without its Captain. And Michael Wilson and Barbara Brocolli were the first officers who had to step up and not only man the helm but do so after 6 1/2 years of inactivity. That'd be intimidating for anyone. So as a response they stuck to what was familiar and what they knew from their days working with Cubby. By the mid 2000s they had the confidence to do what they wanted following 4 financially successful films and a decade of leading EON. But back in 1994 it wouldn't have suprised me if they were too afraid to stray away from the Bond formula.

    It is very interesting to see though. And for me it's good to see how Michael Wilson and Barbara Broccoli now fully "own" the franchise from a creative point of view.

    Quite right. 1962-1989 was Cubby's EON. 2006-Present is Wilson and Barbara Broccoli's EON. The timespan in-between was a strange hybrid. And out of curiosity who do you think was more responsible for the Dalton phase?Cubby or Wilson? Because there are times that LTK doesn't at all resemble Cubby's Bond but if you squint you'll see some precursors to the current era.
  • Mark_HazzardMark_Hazzard Classified
    edited April 2015 Posts: 127
    @bondjames I might be a bit affectionate towards Brozza since he was the first Bond I have ever seen, but I'd like to make a case for the guy and nuance some of your statements.

    The fact that Brozza's Bond felt different throughout all his movies is probably a result from EON/MGM not knowing in which direction they had to take the franchise. After their direction with Dalton (which they started with actually in TLD and was expanded upon in LTK), the audience didn't seem to appreciate the harder and grittier take.

    Now GE was originally written with Dalton in mind. I think that Brosnan actually brought something to the part that hinted back towards Connery. Back at the time Brosnan was hailed as the best one since Connery.

    That is probably the problem with Brozza: he tried to copy Connery to some degree, whereas most other actors simply had their own take on the part. Now EON is always paying close attention to the reaction of the GP. So when the audience was cheering at the gadgetry, extreme stunts and fantastical elements of GE, EON pushed this for TND. Hence we got a movie packed with these elements. Subsequently since a clear vision was missing, which became increasingly difficult with the loss of Cubby, Pierce was handed scripts which weren't consistent in direction and tone.

    Pierce however begged for more sentimental, deeper storylines. We got this in the form of Paris in TND (he literally asked bring in someone from Bond's past) and and the plot with Elektra in TWINE. This brings me to another big difference between Pierce's run and for instance DC's: the supporting cast wasn't always great with Brozza's (except GE).

    Finally, but that's probably a matter of opinion, I thought that Brozza's performance actually peaked in TND, with DAD an absolute downer. The latter is probably a consequence of the less serious approach towards the movie. It was more like a birthday party (40th) than a serious production. Given this statement, all Brozza's movies (actually all Bond movies) should have been written with Dalton in mind, or even better: Fleming's Bond.

    To give a non-Bond example: the first installment of Pirates of the Caribbean was written with a relatively neutral Jack Sparrow character. Johnny Depp gave his interpretation of a pirate in the movie and that's the crazy "rockstar-pirate" we got. The next movie in the series was written with the Jack Sparrow part the way Johnny had played it and it ab-so-lute-ly didn't work out! The script had to be rewritten entirely to give Jack his creative freedom back.

    I think in some way this would have helped Brozza: scripts written with a gritty, edgy Bond in mind so he could have added the charm and suaveness himself.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    Correction. GoldenEye was never written with Dalton in mind.
  • Mark_HazzardMark_Hazzard Classified
    edited April 2015 Posts: 127
    Sorry mate, it actually was:

    http://www.mi6-hq.com/sections/movies/ge_production.php3?t=mi6&s=ge

    Crtl+f "first draft"
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    Hmmm... I've never had read this article before. But, I did have one of the old OO7 Magazine issues somewhere in which one of the articles did mention that GoldenEye was written with Pierce in mind. Dalton's script was the one we all assumed to be titled The Property of A Lady, which actually had nothing to do with the storyline of that abandoned script. Michael France, to my knowledge, came in to polish that script, but it was eventually dropped out. I think he just came with the basic storyline right after Brosnan came to EON's attention. But, many times, he was stated to be a screenwriter while receiving only a "Story By" credit. That's what I know regarding to that of the subject.
  • Mark_HazzardMark_Hazzard Classified
    Posts: 127
    Interesting. I've always understood GE was written with Dalton in mind, but some changes to the story were made because of similarities to True Lies and some things wouldn't have worked with Tim's storyline "missing". To me, it explains the difference in 'tone' compared to Brozza's later work.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    chrisisall wrote: »
    And it was his burden that doomed him for his Bond tenure that people thought so...
    Personally, I thank the Gods that he got his shot, as restrained & limited by the scripts & directors as it may have been. Better a fun & adventurous Bond for his tenure than no Brosnan Bond at all. And better that the series didn't slowly fizzle to a stop because it couldn't compete in the marketplace...
    ;)

    All fair points. Brosnan was a safe (if boring) bet than payed off. Brosnan was a good Bond but his scripts weren't.
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