Do you prefer the 50's or the 60's Fleming novels?

13

Comments

  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    RC7 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    RE: working with a prearranged plot. Shakespeare did this his whole career. Nobody complained.

    I prefer Fleming to Shakespeare.

    Of course. Shakespeare wrote for the theatre.
  • Posts: 15,106
    RC7 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    RE: working with a prearranged plot. Shakespeare did this his whole career. Nobody complained.

    I prefer Fleming to Shakespeare.

    Then you should not complained if Fleming used already made material. Which is what he did in the 50s to a certain degree: using spy thrillers commonplaces to great effect.
  • RC7RC7
    edited June 2017 Posts: 10,512
    Ludovico wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    RE: working with a prearranged plot. Shakespeare did this his whole career. Nobody complained.

    I prefer Fleming to Shakespeare.

    Then you should not complained if Fleming used already made material. Which is what he did in the 50s to a certain degree: using spy thrillers commonplaces to great effect.

    That's not what I'm saying. My observation is that, for me, TB didn't quite have the feel of his previous novels in terms of their idiosyncrasies and authorship. It feels like a definite shift - imbueing a certain cinematic feel, which to me is a hangover from source. This is just my opinion. I'm not saying I'm right. While still a great read, I just don't think TB is as good, or uniquely Fleming as quite a few of his other efforts.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    RC7 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    RE: working with a prearranged plot. Shakespeare did this his whole career. Nobody complained.

    I prefer Fleming to Shakespeare.

    Then you should not complained if Fleming used already made material. Which is what he did in the 50s to a certain degree: using spy thrillers commonplaces to great effect.

    That's not what I'm saying. My observation is that, for me, TB didn't quite have the feel of his previous novels in terms of their idiosyncrasies and authorship. It feels like a definite shift - imbueing a certain cinematic feel, which to me is a hangover from source. This is just my opinion. I'm not saying I'm right. While still a great read, I just don't think TB is as good, or uniquely Fleming as quite a few of his other efforts.

    I concur.
  • Posts: 15,106
    I didn't see a cinematic feel in TB. In fact like many of his novels I found TB anticinematic.
  • edited June 2017 Posts: 170
    delete
  • edited July 2017 Posts: 4,622
    I think I prefer the '50s Bonds, only because Bond was fresh and finding his literary stride.
    The entire canon though, is of course excellent.
    I know this because I keep re-reading them.
    The collection, is rather one Fleming whole, that thrilled upon first compulsive reading as a 13-15 year old, and continues with each subsequent read.

    Edit.
    Re Spectre. Yes it is a trilogy, but Bond also battled Spectre in TSWLM, right off the back of TB. The organization was still intact.
    He has a nasty battle with Spectre agents in Toronto, before he motors south for his rendezvous with Viv and the two goons.
  • Major_BoothroydMajor_Boothroyd Republic of Isthmus
    Posts: 2,722
    1950s - From Russia With Love and Moonraker are two of my three favourite Bond novels with Dr No occupying a special place in my heart due to it being my first Bond novel at the age of 12. On sheer volume I will go for 50s.

    But this is an impossible decision as I think there is something special about 60s literary Bond as well. Fleming really expands his hero and his themes. I enjoy the one-two punch of OHMSS and YOLT - the former is my second favourite novel, the latter I have a real soft spot for. It is languid and leisurely with the travelogue aspect consuming the reader while a hint of death creeps in with every turning page. It draws to a creepy, apocalyptic climax. Where not only does Blofeld die - but Bond in his own way. As grateful as I am for MWTGG there is something desperately perfect about a reborn, amnesiac Bond ironically strolling toward an uncertain fate in Soviet Russia. I feel as though MWTGG and OP/TLD are codas - YOLT is where the Bond story ends so well. And to know that Fleming was dealing with death in such a very real way so close to his own - it reminds me of John Huston's final film - the gentle, melancholic 'The Dead' - so uncharacteristically romantic and quiet for a director who dealt with such macho and brutal subjects in Maltese Falcon, Treasure of Sierra Madre and The African Queen. There's a stretching out to the beyond with both of these creator's final completed artistic endeavours.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,275
    But this is an impossible decision as I think there is something special about 60s literary Bond as well. Fleming really expands his hero and his themes. I enjoy the one-two punch of OHMSS and YOLT - the former is my second favourite novel, the latter I have a real soft spot for. It is languid and leisurely with the travelogue aspect consuming the reader while a hint of death creeps in with every turning page. It draws to a creepy, apocalyptic climax. Where not only does Blofeld die - but Bond in his own way. As grateful as I am for MWTGG there is something desperately perfect about a reborn, amnesiac Bond ironically strolling toward an uncertain fate in Soviet Russia. I feel as though MWTGG and OP/TLD are codas - YOLT is where the Bond story ends so well. And to know that Fleming was dealing with death in such a very real way so close to his own - it reminds me of John Huston's final film - the gentle, melancholic 'The Dead' - so uncharacteristically romantic and quiet for a director who dealt with such macho and brutal subjects in Maltese Falcon, Treasure of Sierra Madre and The African Queen. There's a stretching out to the beyond with both of these creator's final completed artistic endeavours.

    Craig's last Bond really should showcase the end of YOLT; he is so perfect for it. I just fear that they'd get the writing wrong. They really need a Soderbergh who would honor the original source and make it sing.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,244
    The fascinating part is that she lets him go while beeing pregnant. Btw, anyone read Benson's 'Blast from the Past'? Never knew it existed.
  • Agent_99Agent_99 enjoys a spirited ride as much as the next girl
    Posts: 3,176
    Btw, anyone read Benson's 'Blast from the Past'? Never knew it existed.

    Yes! I can't remember that much about it, though.

    I was too embarrassed to walk into a shop and buy a copy of Playboy for the Bond story, so I asked my dad to buy it for me, which was, er, somehow less embarrassing??
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    edited July 2017 Posts: 45,489
    Agent_99 wrote: »
    Btw, anyone read Benson's 'Blast from the Past'? Never knew it existed.

    Yes! I can't remember that much about it, though.

    I was too embarrassed to walk into a shop and buy a copy of Playboy for the Bond story, so I asked my dad to buy it for me, which was, er, somehow less embarrassing??

    Embarassed dad in the shop: ."It isn t for me. It s a present for my daughter"
  • Agent_99Agent_99 enjoys a spirited ride as much as the next girl
    Posts: 3,176
    :D What are daughters for, if not embarrassing their dads?
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    edited July 2017 Posts: 8,244
    Hahahaha great story! You still have that Playboy?
  • Agent_99Agent_99 enjoys a spirited ride as much as the next girl
    Posts: 3,176
    Yup!

    35568827812_de672b97e2.jpg
  • Posts: 520
    1950s - From Russia With Love and Moonraker are two of my three favourite Bond novels with Dr No occupying a special place in my heart due to it being my first Bond novel at the age of 12. On sheer volume I will go for 50s.

    But this is an impossible decision as I think there is something special about 60s literary Bond as well. Fleming really expands his hero and his themes. I enjoy the one-two punch of OHMSS and YOLT - the former is my second favourite novel, the latter I have a real soft spot for. It is languid and leisurely with the travelogue aspect consuming the reader while a hint of death creeps in with every turning page. It draws to a creepy, apocalyptic climax. Where not only does Blofeld die - but Bond in his own way. As grateful as I am for MWTGG there is something desperately perfect about a reborn, amnesiac Bond ironically strolling toward an uncertain fate in Soviet Russia. I feel as though MWTGG and OP/TLD are codas - YOLT is where the Bond story ends so well. And to know that Fleming was dealing with death in such a very real way so close to his own - it reminds me of John Huston's final film - the gentle, melancholic 'The Dead' - so uncharacteristically romantic and quiet for a director who dealt with such macho and brutal subjects in Maltese Falcon, Treasure of Sierra Madre and The African Queen. There's a stretching out to the beyond with both of these creator's final completed artistic endeavours.

    What a fabulous summation from the good Major.

    We have people with great taste haunting this hallowed cyber hall - atleast the literary end of it.

    That said, PussyNoMore must stick to his original proposal that Bond was really a hero of the '50s and that with the exception of OHMSS, the great stuff is really from that decade.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,275
    I would agree that Fleming finally perfected the Bond novel with OHMSS. It's not coincidental that there are echoes of Vesper in this one.
  • edited July 2017 Posts: 4,622
    Agent_99 wrote: »
    Yup!

    35568827812_de672b97e2.jpg

    Yep, I have that edition too. I don't remember having any qualms about buying it though. I was a fairly avid "reader" of the fine publication.
    I was actually probably brazenly eyeballing the centrefold full length, in the checkout lineup - no doubt influenced by Laz's example, leaving the lawyers office in OHMSS.
    I've also got a collection of all the Baywatch special edition Playboys.
    Should really get these precious collectables wrapped in plastic coverings.

    As for the Benson short stories. I think there are four total.They finally got published as add-ons to the pair of Benson trilogy novel collections, which are available on Amazon.
  • Major_BoothroydMajor_Boothroyd Republic of Isthmus
    Posts: 2,722
    I got the Benson dual Omnibus editions which cover his complete output and include this short story apparently. I haven't read them yet as I'm working my way through the continuation novels in sequence so I'm still on Gardner at present (the exception being Trigger Mortis which I read immediately upon release.)
  • Major_BoothroydMajor_Boothroyd Republic of Isthmus
    edited July 2017 Posts: 2,722

    What a fabulous summation from the good Major.

    We have people with great taste haunting this hallowed cyber hall - atleast the literary end of it.

    That said, PussyNoMore must stick to his original proposal that Bond was really a hero of the '50s and that with the exception of OHMSS, the great stuff is really from that decade.

    Why thank you PNM! I definitely love the 50s Bond the most - I reread FRWL quite often. That was the sweet spot of Fleming's writing IMO. That 50s hero observation is correct. A man for his times - and it is interesting to see the changing times of the tumultuous 60s fraying at the edges of Fleming's hero. The existential doubt and questioning is there in the early texts but they really come to fore in the later Bond novels.
  • Posts: 520
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I'm rereading them now and that run from CR to DN is near flawless (DAF, while excellent, is a bit weaker than its brethren). GF is a bit of a slip, but the short stories are on a par with Fleming's best.

    Birdleson, why did you find GF a bit of a slip ?
    I re-read it in preparation for Trigger Mortis a solid Fleming.
    Of course, not up to the level of CR,MR, FRWL,or OHMSS but ceratainly a good mid ranker.

  • Posts: 15,106
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I'm rereading them now and that run from CR to DN is near flawless (DAF, while excellent, is a bit weaker than its brethren). GF is a bit of a slip, but the short stories are on a par with Fleming's best.

    I think it's because DAF is in essence crime fiction and not spy thriller. Fleming did far better with TSWLM, as he seems to truly embrace the genre there while bringing some originality to it.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Goldfinger is elite Bond, a classic.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,244
    I always thought the short stories are Fleming's best. He was an extremely good journalist when it comes to writing.
  • edited July 2017 Posts: 4,622
    Bond is at his smartass best in GF. The verbal barbs tossed at Oddjob are relentless.
    Gets some good ones in at Auric too.

    I think this one below, is in the movie, but it could have been lifted from Fleming's pages.

    Edit: it's from the book. I don't believe there is any mention of agoraphobia in the movie.
    Thus, Fleming was as glib as any of the early screenwriters.

    "How's the agoraphobia Goldfinger?" whilst the two stroll down the wide expanse of the golf fairway.

    Fleming reveled in portraying his villains as ultimate corruptions of evil, and enjoyed having Bond verbally torment them.
    This aspect of Bond comes out in many of the films too.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Another great thing about Goldfinger is how we get inside Bond s head, more so than in other books.
  • edited July 2017 Posts: 6,844
    The opening chapter of Goldfinger is terrific. Apart from that, it is my least favorite Fleming.

    Ultimately, between the 50s and the 60s, I'd go with the 50s novels. That first run is stellar (including DAF for me) with Dr. No and Goldfinger being comparatively less great than their predecessors (again, for me).

    The 60s novels are fantastic as well though (TB and YOLT being standouts for me) with only TMWTGG really letting the decade down.
  • The opening, the train scene, and the finale in the swamp are definitely among the highlights of TMWTGG. I do, however, find the prose to be perhaps Fleming's weakest, and that I'm sure is on account of the draft we have not being Fleming's final polished draft. It's a good novel nonetheless. Though I can't help but feel YOLT's ending would have been a much stronger conclusion for the series. Always loved that image of Bond setting off into the world (right into the clutch of the enemy, in fact) to discover who he really is. That felt like the ultimate culmination of all of Fleming's more existential ruminations.
  • Yup, they're ripe for the picking for Bond films from here on out.
  • Posts: 15,106
    I always thought there was one novel missing between YOLT and TMWTGG.
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