The UK General Election

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  • Posts: 12,526
    The whole UKIP saga does make me laugh, and I cannot help but like Nigel Farage! :))
  • Posts: 15,125
    SaintMark wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Why does Britan still have a class system? As far as I know nearly everyone in Britain knows which social class they belong to... The country I live in has no class system, and I believe currently no country in Europe has social classes the way the UK does.

    I blame it on the monarchy. The UK has the worst social mobility in the Western world: you are born in a class, you stay in that class.

    Europe has quite a few monarchies and few or none have the class system like in the UK.

    Few monarchies are taken as seriously by their own people. And let's not forget that in some of these monarchies at least, republicanism has legs (Spain for instance).
  • Posts: 7,653
    Ludovico wrote: »
    SaintMark wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Why does Britan still have a class system? As far as I know nearly everyone in Britain knows which social class they belong to... The country I live in has no class system, and I believe currently no country in Europe has social classes the way the UK does.

    I blame it on the monarchy. The UK has the worst social mobility in the Western world: you are born in a class, you stay in that class.

    Europe has quite a few monarchies and few or none have the class system like in the UK.

    Few monarchies are taken as seriously by their own people. And let's not forget that in some of these monarchies at least, republicanism has legs (Spain for instance).

    They are taken seriously, but most are on the track of modernization, the Dutch one is anyhow. That said most elected politicians get far less respect from than our king & Queen (she is kind of a dish).
  • Posts: 1,552
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Why does Britan still have a class system? As far as I know nearly everyone in Britain knows which social class they belong to... The country I live in has no class system, and I believe currently no country in Europe has social classes the way the UK does.

    I blame it on the monarchy. The UK has the worst social mobility in the Western world: you are born in a class, you stay in that class.
    I don't believe this, I have friends who's family were very badly off, barely working class but through their own hard work they've brought themselves up to be middle class, comfortably well off with a good family. I think class lines are thinning.
  • MrcogginsMrcoggins Following in the footsteps of Quentin Quigley.
    Posts: 3,144
    @thelivingroyale I know that we have had a discussion about Mrs T before but I wanted to thank you for that last post of yours good points which were well made .
  • Posts: 15,125
    JCRendle wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Why does Britan still have a class system? As far as I know nearly everyone in Britain knows which social class they belong to... The country I live in has no class system, and I believe currently no country in Europe has social classes the way the UK does.

    I blame it on the monarchy. The UK has the worst social mobility in the Western world: you are born in a class, you stay in that class.
    I don't believe this, I have friends who's family were very badly off, barely working class but through their own hard work they've brought themselves up to be middle class, comfortably well off with a good family. I think class lines are thinning.

    I am sure you do, but this is at best anecdotal.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    To quote Ronnie Corbett from a well known sketch ...... " I know my place !" :D
  • Posts: 1,552
    Ludovico wrote: »
    JCRendle wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Why does Britan still have a class system? As far as I know nearly everyone in Britain knows which social class they belong to... The country I live in has no class system, and I believe currently no country in Europe has social classes the way the UK does.

    I blame it on the monarchy. The UK has the worst social mobility in the Western world: you are born in a class, you stay in that class.
    I don't believe this, I have friends who's family were very badly off, barely working class but through their own hard work they've brought themselves up to be middle class, comfortably well off with a good family. I think class lines are thinning.

    I am sure you do, but this is at best anecdotal.
    it may be area specific, but the example above wasn't unique, I've noticed class norms being broken is quite wide spread. I think the urge to better ones self is strong, even in areas where schools are poor and job prospects minimal. I don't know how serious you were when you said people stay in the classes they were born into, but I know of several examples where it's gone both ways

  • SirHilaryBraySirHilaryBray Scotland
    edited May 2015 Posts: 2,138
    You can't blame the monarchy it's they have no real power or say in how the country is run, the people elect a government the buck stops at parliament. That's how the UK constitution works. As for the miners the trade unions and the labour party are basically the same thing of course Tatcher
    did not like the powers and influence they hold. End of the day the demand for coal in Europe is next to non existant that's why we never reopened the pits. As for the class system last year a UK University can't mind which one said that they discovered 8 classes in the UK. I don't agree you are born in to one and stay in one. There is plenty of what they call "New money" in the UK Duncan Banatyne was from lower classes and started with a few ice cream vans last time I checked he was a very wealthy man. See I don't buy in to all the BS that you can't achieve because you were not born in to money. The UK offers a free education, student loan and Bursaries to get the qualifications to do any job it comes down to whether you can be arsed. I left school with no qualifications and from a working class one working parent family. I went to college and revisited my highers before studying a HND. I got a job in a company at entry level. And moved jobs progressing each time I am fortune I earn enough to be living comfortably. We have built a society dependent on a sense of entitlement over hand outs. A study showed most child benefit is being spent on alchol, cigarettes and betting shops. The NHS should have been means tested years ago. Social housing and teenage parenthood are the big issues for me this mix creates generation after generation of young people who often feel unwanted don't get the right support or direction early in life and therefore have no aspirations and feel they have to accept what they got was what they got.
  • Posts: 4,619
    Of course there is movement between the classes, but the fact is that Britain has the lowest social mobility in the developed world. As for the monarchy, they may not have real power, but that the head of state in the UK is an unelected person, born into the right family, definitely sends a message.
  • SirHilaryBraySirHilaryBray Scotland
    edited May 2015 Posts: 2,138
    Of course there is movement between the classes, but the fact is that Britain has the lowest social mobility in the developed world. As for the monarchy, they may not have real power, but that the head of state in the UK is an unelected person, born into the right family, definitely sends a message.

    Yes but we live in a democracy. As per the Magna Carta in 1215 King John of England transfered powers to rule to the people, The Monarchys power over the country disolved and the head of the Monarchy would remain a figure head.

    I was merely pointing out that you can't blame the Monarchy for the failings of the governments that the people democraticaly put in power.

    Since the first British Monarch of the Union took seat in 1707 the last The last Civil war seen in the UK 1642 to1651 they have avoided what other countries have since ex. civil war, Military coup's, dictatorships and other false prophets who come and go. The Monarchy in the UK and the country has remained stable for 308 years despite two world wars. History therefore shows our Monarchy works for our country. Did you know the Royal family bring £26.4billion a year to our economy in just tourism interest?

    Social mobility in the developed world?, considering we unlike the Eastern block who had to put up with communism in which everyone in theory "everyone is equal, but some are more equal than others" which end result was to bring everyone in society down to the very bottom. The UK has never had such and issue. We are unique due to the way our country developed Industry in the North, Financial in the South. Of course those in financial in the south were always making more money than those working in industry in the north. This is an issue stemming back beyond Victorian times and is stil impacting our society today.

    So what can you do? move to Robin Hood politics and rob from the rich to give to the poor? Do you take 50% of in tax from a judge who lives in London, who has spent 7 years at university and 20 years practising as a lawyer to give to wee Davie from Leeds who works in a call centre who made his own choices not to stick in a school, who has shown no desire to get a further education, who made the choice to have 4 kids by the time he's 30 without considering the financial cost or burden on society? it is compensation culture Britian so many feel they are entitled to money just because they live here. That's why we are such an attraction for Asylum seekers.

    Everyone should pay in the same to the tax pot, we as a nation need to stop being childish and expecting goverments to decide our own destinys. We need to consider the implication of the decision we make rather than assume the government should bail us out. Only you as an individual can work hard and achieve the life you want. Why should I work hard to pay for your kids when I chose not to have any of my own? becuase I was smart enough to know at the time I can't afford the expense of a child why should you get more money from the government than I do because I know how to use a condom? do you get the point I am making?

    What I will say is TV liscence should go its a tax on the poor.
    Sexual education must be a priority and should be party of the sylabas at secondary schools.

    High rised living needs to be demolished and people rehoused in affordable new council built homes.

    Cigarette, Alcohol and fuel duty should be cut in half most of which hit the lower classes of our society the hardest. The high tax is used a detterent to stop people but really it just leaves people worse off because they will continue to smoke and drink anyway.

    "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" - JFK

  • Posts: 15,125
    Of course there is movement between the classes, but the fact is that Britain has the lowest social mobility in the developed world. As for the monarchy, they may not have real power, but that the head of state in the UK is an unelected person, born into the right family, definitely sends a message.

    exactly.
  • Posts: 4,619
    The Monarchy in the UK and the country has remained stable for 308 years despite two world wars. History therefore shows our Monarchy works for our country.
    Did the UK remain stable for such a long time because it is a monarchy or for other reasons? Switzerland is arguably one of the most stable countries on Earth, but it's not a monarchy. Cambodia on the other hand is a constitutional monarchy (just like the Unted Kingdom), but it isn't that stable...
    Did you know the Royal family bring £26.4billion a year to our economy in just tourism interest?
    Monarchists always bring this up, but I just don't believe it. I doubt that there are many people who decide to visit Britain just because it has a Queen and a royal family.
    Social mobility in the developed world?, considering we unlike the Eastern block
    Forget about the Eastern block, and compare the British social mobility to the social mobility of countries like Denmark or Finland.
  • SirHilaryBraySirHilaryBray Scotland
    edited May 2015 Posts: 2,138
    The Monarchy in the UK and the country has remained stable for 308 years despite two world wars. History therefore shows our Monarchy works for our country.
    Did the UK remain stable for such a long time because it is a monarchy or for other reasons? Switzerland is arguably one of the most stable countries on Earth, but it's not a monarchy. Cambodia on the other hand is a constitutional monarchy (just like the Unted Kingdom), but it isn't that stable...
    Did you know the Royal family bring £26.4billion a year to our economy in just tourism interest?
    Monarchists always bring this up, but I just don't believe it. I doubt that there are many people who decide to visit Britain just because it has a Queen and a royal family.
    Social mobility in the developed world?, considering we unlike the Eastern block
    Forget about the Eastern block, and compare the British social mobility to the social mobility of countries like Denmark or Finland.

    We are not neutral cowards like Switzerland. Our country fought for the Freedom that those cowards enjoy. Switzerland is the financial capital of the planet it's rediculous comparison to make not many countries has what they have. Maybe Switzerland should share their wealth maybe compensate the families of those who died in WW2 from this country who did to fend off total invasion of Europe while they stayed silent. Since Switzerland didn't have to pick themselves up after a war.

    Your post is ill informed and an insult to those who died in the name of the freedom you enjoy.
  • Posts: 4,619
    We are not neutral cowards like Switzerland. Our country fought for the Freedom that those cowards enjoy.
    Wow... That may be the dumbest thing I have read in months.
    Your post is ill informed and an insult to those who died in the name of the freedom you enjoy.
    Switzerland was just an example, there are dozens of republics that are as stable as Britain.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    @thelivingroyale, that is all so very well said. Thank you for your latest post.

    @Ludovico, as an American (and therefore not in the thick of things there) I am still often surprised at how much the class system is still evidently strong in the UK.
  • Posts: 15,125
    @SirHilaryBray-I find it ironic that you need to build a strawman to justify the presence of an outdated institution based on bloodright. I am not talking about turning Britain into a communist nation, or even a socialist one. By the way, how socialist is the USA, which incidentally is a republic? How less prosperous they are compared to the UK?

    Besides, economic prosperity is irrelevant to the debate. At the core, no system can guarantee economic prosperity. A republic is, however a more legitimate form of government, because the sovereignty does not reside in someone born into it, but in the citizens.

    And a video explaining fairly well the British monarchy, in a nutshell:
  • edited May 2015 Posts: 1,552
    @4EverBonded Whilst it may not have a named class system, Americans do seem to have a similar class structure to the United Kingdom.

    You have lower classes, working classes, middle classes, upper classes etc just the same as us, it's just not acknowledged as a class system ("A rose by any other name" comes to mind)
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    Oh, the U.S. has tons of cultural differences, "classes", our society is structured sure ... but not the same as the UK.
  • Posts: 15,125
    And the USA is far more of a meritocracy than the UK.
  • edited May 2015 Posts: 7,507
    Ludovico wrote: »
    And the USA is far more of a meritocracy than the UK.


    Well, that is highly debatable...
  • Posts: 15,125
    jobo wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    And the USA is far more of a meritocracy than the UK.


    Well, that is highly debatable...

    How so? It's a country that practically invented the archetype of the self-made man! In fact, I wonder if there is a single country more meritocratic than the US.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    I think the U.S. is more of a meritocracy, yes. Edges get blurred of course, when knocking around terms like that. But in general, yes.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Just noticed with all this talk of America that my post number 1776. ;)
  • edited May 2015 Posts: 7,507
    Ludovico wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    And the USA is far more of a meritocracy than the UK.


    Well, that is highly debatable...

    How so? It's a country that practically invented the archetype of the self-made man! In fact, I wonder if there is a single country more meritocratic than the US.


    The problem is that the country has a policy that makes it much harder for the less fortunate to succeed, no matter how hard they work. The concept of the "American dream" is there, yes, but it is not so easy to achieve if you are born into a poor family (or a "lover class" if you like). I would argue the "American dream" is easier to achieve in Brittain (unless you are born wealthy of course...) than in America...
  • Posts: 1,552
    I don't know, Britain has a high percentage of entrepreneurs and self made millionaires which works with the meritocracy ideals.
  • SirHilaryBraySirHilaryBray Scotland
    edited May 2015 Posts: 2,138
    A Republic one of the oldest being Ireland who have been crippled by debt they don't have the class divide over there as there all broke the country would have been bankrupt without a European Union bail out. Some of the most stable countries on the planet have a Monarchy intact Spain, The Netherlands even the Danes hundreds of years of democracy and stability. There is greater poverty in parts of the US than there is in the UK. Well be just fine with the Windsors thank you. As I said the Magna Carta means our Queen is only a figure head the power is with the democratically elected government. You make it out that she is head of state in the sense of a dictatorship read the translated Magna Carta on the British library website instead of posting republican propaganda from you tube.
  • edited May 2015 Posts: 7,507
    A Republic one of the oldest being Ireland who have been crippled by debt they don't have the class divide over there as there all broke the country would have been bankrupt without a European Union bail out. Some of the most stable countries on the planet have a Monarchy intact Spain, The Netherlands even the Danes hundreds of years of democracy and stability. There is greater poverty in parts of the US than there is in the UK. Well be just fine with the Windsors thank you. As I said the Magna Carta means our Queen is only a figure head the power is with the democratically elected government. You make it out that she is head of state in the sense of a dictatorship read the translated Magna Carta on the British library website instead of posting republican propaganda from you tube.



    Spain has had "hundreds of years" of "democracy and stability"?? ;))
  • SirHilaryBraySirHilaryBray Scotland
    edited May 2015 Posts: 2,138
    jobo wrote: »
    A Republic one of the oldest being Ireland who have been crippled by debt they don't have the class divide over there as there all broke the country would have been bankrupt without a European Union bail out. Some of the most stable countries on the planet have a Monarchy intact Spain, The Netherlands even the Danes hundreds of years of democracy and stability. There is greater poverty in parts of the US than there is in the UK. Well be just fine with the Windsors thank you. As I said the Magna Carta means our Queen is only a figure head the power is with the democratically elected government. You make it out that she is head of state in the sense of a dictatorship read the translated Magna Carta on the British library website instead of posting republican propaganda from you tube.



    Spain has had "hundreds of years" of "democracy and stability"?? ;))

    Why is that so funny the country its
    democratic in financial health with a great track record on human rights. I'm not ignorant to the issue in the tribal basque north but I didn't say it's perfect every nation has its hate mob.
  • edited May 2015 Posts: 15,125
    jobo wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    And the USA is far more of a meritocracy than the UK.


    Well, that is highly debatable...

    How so? It's a country that practically invented the archetype of the self-made man! In fact, I wonder if there is a single country more meritocratic than the US.


    The problem is that the country has a policy that makes it much harder for the less fortunate to succeed, no matter how hard they work. The concept of the "American dream" is there, yes, but it is not so easy to achieve if you are born into a poor family (or a "lover class" if you like). I would argue the "American dream" is easier to achieve in Brittain (unless you are born wealthy of course...) than in America...

    It is difficult everywhere to start at the bottom of ladder and go on the top. The concepts of the American dream, self-made man, etc. are all... American concepts. It is a people that values at the chore of its identity merit. Not birthright, merit. That doesn't mean there are no people in the UK that can go from working class to middle class and up. But they value it less. And it is partially due, I think, to a certain reverence, often downright sycophantic attitude, towards an outdated institution that is the monarchy.

    And don't get me wrong, I love the UK. I live in the UK, I am married to an English woman, I admire British writers, musicians, actors, heck, British artists and intellectuals. But this country has a serious issue with its political system.
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