I've never noticed that before...

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  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Spectre made over $880 million ? and that's considered as " not doing too well ". :-D
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited February 2018 Posts: 23,883
    Spectre made over $880 million ? and that's considered as " not doing too well ". :-D
    I was referring to the US market on a relative basis.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Birdleson wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Spectre made over $880 million ? and that's considered as " not doing too well ". :-D
    I was referring to the US market on a relative basis.

    Yes, EON has always considered a drop off from the previous film's take (even if it still pulled big numbers compared to your average film) as not doing well. And they always readjust. SP made a bulk of it's cash on opening weekend, which had more to do with the success and expectations set by SF than anything it brought with it.

    OHMSS, TMWTGG, QOS (and even LTK to a lesser degree) showed respectable to strong box office, but they all greatly underperformed in relationship to their predecessor (I believe that SP was down almost 25% from SF), and they led to a big readjustment (DAF, TSWLM, GE, SF) the next time around.
    That's true. If I recall correctly, the only times they haven't followed up a 'relative' US disappointment with a US centric film was with GE & TSWLM, and in both those cases they instead went with supremely confident formula executed very well. I'm curious to see what route they take this time.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited February 2018 Posts: 23,883
    Birdleson wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Spectre made over $880 million ? and that's considered as " not doing too well ". :-D
    I was referring to the US market on a relative basis.

    Yes, EON has always considered a drop off from the previous film's take (even if it still pulled big numbers compared to your average film) as not doing well. And they always readjust. SP made a bulk of it's cash on opening weekend, which had more to do with the success and expectations set by SF than anything it brought with it.

    OHMSS, TMWTGG, QOS (and even LTK to a lesser degree) showed respectable to strong box office, but they all greatly underperformed in relationship to their predecessor (I believe that SP was down almost 25% from SF), and they led to a big readjustment (DAF, TSWLM, GE, SF) the next time around.
    That's true. If I recall correctly, the only times they haven't followed up a 'relative' US disappointment with a US centric film was with GE & TSWLM, and in both those cases they instead went with supremely confident formula executed very well. I'm curious to see what route they take this time.

    But with both of the samples you cite (GE and TSWLM, and I'll throw in SF) they did go all out (BIG!) compared to the predecessor. There was a readjustment.
    Again, that's true. What's interesting though is that in the case of SP, they actually did go 'big', which is in contrast to the other films which relatively underperformed at US box office. I think OHMSS was the only other example of a 'big budget' film which didn't quite do the business stateside (understandably due to the new 'unknown' Bond actor), and then they followed up with a US centric much lower budget entry, but with a huge draw in Connery.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,041
    Then what about the US "double dipper" of DAF and LALD? I'm not aware how DAF did (but it should have been dismal), but LALD was as American as a Bond could come as well.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited February 2018 Posts: 23,883
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    Then what about the US "double dipper" of DAF and LALD? I'm not aware how DAF did (but it should have been dismal), but LALD was as American as a Bond could come as well.
    Yes, that's my point. OHMSS didn't do too well relatively speaking in the US despite being somewhat big budget (Laz's lack of pulling power may have had something to do with it). Then if I understand correctly they decided to go for a more American centric approach with the next two in succession and the box office lit up (yes, DAF did quite well in the US, as did LALD). In fact, I believe they even considered an American for DAF (John Gavin) until Connery decided to return.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited February 2018 Posts: 23,883
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I'm not sure that the American thing is always a reaction, my point is that a drastic shift of some kind is. Yes, @j_w_pepper , DAF and LALD were extremely successful.
    Agreed and I'm not saying it will be either. Just that it's a possibility, especially given that it's been a while.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,400
    With Bond 25 they will either do more of the Craig schtick which is increasingly old hat, or they will push things in a more light hearted direction, in which case why keep Craig when that's clearly not his area of expertise? This, plus the 4 year gap, is why I think Bond 25 will underperform and push EON onto the back foot again.
  • Posts: 17,757
    With Bond 25 they will either do more of the Craig schtick which is increasingly old hat, or they will push things in a more light hearted direction, in which case why keep Craig when that's clearly not his area of expertise? This, plus the 4 year gap, is why I think Bond 25 will underperform and push EON onto the back foot again.

    Bond 25 can only surprise positively, given the expectations I dare to have. I can see them going in both those directions – none of which appeal that much, really.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Roger Moore is the only Bond actor not to have driven an Aston Martin in the films.

    Somewhat ironically, he was associated with the brand famously in both The Persuaders and Cannonball Run, perhaps by way of compensation.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    He also never ordered a vodka martini, shaken not stirred.
  • Posts: 17,757
    bondjames wrote: »
    Roger Moore is the only Bond actor not to have driven an Aston Martin in the films.

    Somewhat ironically, he was associated with the brand famously in both The Persuaders and Cannonball Run, perhaps by way of compensation.

    That is an interesting fact! I don't like yellow cars that much, but the AM he drives in The Persuaders is an exception. The Lotus cars he drove did suit his Bond, I think. A little more extravagant than the cars of Connery. Then again, Moore weighed that up with driving the Citröen in FYEO, too…
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    bondjames wrote: »
    Roger Moore is the only Bond actor not to have driven an Aston Martin in the films.

    Somewhat ironically, he was associated with the brand famously in both The Persuaders and Cannonball Run, perhaps by way of compensation.

    That is an interesting fact! I don't like yellow cars that much, but the AM he drives in The Persuaders is an exception. The Lotus cars he drove did suit his Bond, I think. A little more extravagant than the cars of Connery. Then again, Moore weighed that up with driving the Citröen in FYEO, too…
    I love the Lotus and wish he used it more often. I agree that it somehow suited him better (he is of course the only one associated with that brand) for some reason.

    I also agree about his The Persuaders car. Beautiful. That's the same model that Laz drives in OHMSS and in my view is the best of the lot.
    He also never ordered a vodka martini, shaken not stirred.
    That's a good point. I forgot about that.
  • edited February 2018 Posts: 17,757
    bondjames wrote: »
    I also agree about his The Persuaders car. Beautiful. That's the same model that Laz drives in OHMSS and in my view is the best of the lot.

    I have a soft spot for the good ol' DB5, but I can't really say that the OHMSS/Persuaders DBS is any less of a car. Maybe a bit more muscle car look, but still very, very stylish.
    bondjames wrote: »
    He also never ordered a vodka martini, shaken not stirred.
    That's a good point. I forgot about that.

    Intentional, perhaps? A way to differentiate the Moore Bond to the Connery Bond?

    Edit: Of course, he didn't have to order one in TSWLM.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    bondjames wrote: »
    I also agree about his The Persuaders car. Beautiful. That's the same model that Laz drives in OHMSS and in my view is the best of the lot.

    I have a soft spot for the good ol' DB5, but I can't really say that the OHMSS/Persuaders DBS is any less of a car. Maybe a bit more muscle car look, but still very, very stylish.
    Yes I agree. There's something a bit more aggressive but also quite stately about it. It's perhaps the blunt stubby front end followed by the very classic droop at the back.
    bondjames wrote: »
    He also never ordered a vodka martini, shaken not stirred.
    That's a good point. I forgot about that.

    Intentional, perhaps? A way to differentiate the Moore Bond to the Connery Bond?
    Yes, I believe it was definitely intentional. The closest he got was Anya ordering it for him in TSWLM.
  • Posts: 12,473
    Lazenby and Moore never personally ordered the shaken not stirred vodka martini, but Draco and Anya ordered them one.
  • edited February 2018 Posts: 17,757
    FoxRox wrote: »
    Lazenby and Moore never personally ordered the shaken not stirred vodka martini, but Draco and Anya ordered them one.

    Yes, that's true. Nice touch, really. Clever way to do things differently than the usual "drink ordering routine".
  • Posts: 12,473
    Either way, all the Bonds have had the traditional drink one way or another!
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,585
    In the midst of the Bond / mysoginy issue going on at the moment, I realized the following...

    1. Many women use sex, too, to lure Bond (albeit unsuccessfully) to his death. Some examples: The PTS of GF, Fiona in TB, the PTS in TSWLM, Elektra King is TWINE. Bottom line: when it comes to using and manipulating people, there may be no better weapon than sex, and Bond himself is no different.

    2. Furthermore, one could make a case that Connery's Bond is quite fond (and protective) of women, outside the spygame. Case in point: Tilly Masterson. When she is struck down by Odd Job, Bond does the unthinkable: he runs to check on her, despite the risk involved. I am not sure a female-hating superspy does that. Bond's actions here reveal something far more complicated than "Bond is a pig."
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    edited February 2018 Posts: 28,694
    TripAces wrote: »
    2. Furthermore, one could make a case that Connery's Bond is quite fond (and protective) of women, outside the spygame. Case in point: Tilly Masterson. When she is struck down by Odd Job, Bond does the unthinkable: he runs to check on her, despite the risk involved. I am not sure a female-hating superspy does that. Bond's actions here reveal something far more complicated than "Bond is a pig."

    @TripAces, this is one of my favorite things about Connery's Bond, and another reason I find him very Flemingesque. He has an inherent protection over and worship of women, despite the consequences to himself, and despite how the public seem to view Bond as misogynistic with Sean being the "face" of the 007 brand who is judged through that fact. I'm of the mind that those calling Bond a misogynist either don't know the meaning of the word or haven't seen the films, or both. When you get down to it the claim doesn't hold water.

    The example you list from GF is a good one, but even in that same film one only has to spot Bond's mood after Jill's death to see how angry he is for bringing an innocent into the spy world; he cares so much M has to calm him down from head hunting Auric himself. But from jump in '62 Bond is very protective of Honey, ready to smash the Dom Pérignon bottle at No's dining table the moment she's touched, and he has a similarly endearing chemistry with Tatiana because she's even more innocent and in over her head.

    My favorite example of Connery Bond's warmth and big heart lies with Domino in TB, though, as he really shines there as a chivalric figure probably more than he does in the entire era. I just love how quickly he rushes to Domino's aid when he sees what Largo is doing, the protective and comforting way he holds her when they dance and the soft way in which he tries to break the news of her brother's death to her on the beach.

    As Fleming noted, the tough silent types are using the sentimentalists, and I think Bond fits that description well, on the screen and on the page, especially when it comes to how Sean, George, Tim and Dan have played him in particular; essentially, a hard man with a soft heart. I think it's a vital part of an actor's duty to get that essence of Bond's character just right, where the performer gives you the feeling that no matter what his Bond is ready to go to the very limits of his life blood to protect the women around him no matter the harm to his own person. It's as much a part of Bond to me as everything else, the style, the calm in chaos, the wild confidence and masculine draw.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Good points, Brady.
  • Posts: 2,918
    TripAces wrote: »
    In the midst of the Bond / misogyny issue going on at the moment, I realized the following...
    Many women use sex, too, to lure Bond (albeit unsuccessfully) to his death. Some examples: The PTS of GF, Fiona in TB, the PTS in TSWLM, Elektra King is TWINE.

    But women using sex to entrap and destroy men is a very old sexist stereotype, going back to the femme fatale and La Belle Dame sans Merci, and before them to the Sirens. The temptress archetype is based on a fear of female sexuality wielded by non-subservient women. The Bond novels are actually less interested in this sort of character--Tatiana Romanova for example comes close to being a sexual temptress but turns out to be morally good. Nor do equivalents of Fiona or Elektra exist in Fleming.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,266
    Revelator wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    In the midst of the Bond / misogyny issue going on at the moment, I realized the following...
    Many women use sex, too, to lure Bond (albeit unsuccessfully) to his death. Some examples: The PTS of GF, Fiona in TB, the PTS in TSWLM, Elektra King is TWINE.

    But women using sex to entrap and destroy men is a very old sexist stereotype, going back to the femme fatale and La Belle Dame sans Merci, and before them to the Sirens. The temptress archetype is based on a fear of female sexuality wielded by non-subservient women. The Bond novels are actually less interested in this sort of character--Tatiana Romanova for example comes close to being a sexual temptress but turns out to be morally good. Nor do equivalents of Fiona or Elektra exist in Fleming.

    Since when is this a stereotype? From my personal experience there are enough women who will sleep with men either to get back at another man, because they fancy the fun or to get him to pay for her luxury lifestyle. And of course there are plenty of men who do the same.

    Bond is a gentleman, and thus protective of women, even though he may not stay with them for long (due to his job). Those who think he's a misogynyst basically fail to understand human nature.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited February 2018 Posts: 23,883
    Unfortunately the misogynist term was specifically used by the current actor in an interview during his SP tour. Perhaps he misunderstood the meaning of the word, but it doesn't help in this environment when that happens. The quote itself (rather than the context which he explained) was picked up by quite a few outlets (as is usually the case).

    https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2015/10/james-bond-misogynist-daniel-craig

    EDIT: As an aside, I think all the Bond actors have played the role in a manner that should show the viewer quite clearly that they are in fact protective, and not dismissive, of women (jokes from time to time notwithstanding). That much should be clear to everyone.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,266
    It indeed reads like he misunderstood the words. He's got most of the rest right.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,400
    In CR M says "don't ever break into my house again". And Bond does again in SF.
  • edited February 2018 Posts: 2,918
    Since when is this a stereotype?

    It has been for hundreds of years.
    From my personal experience there are enough women who will sleep with men either to get back at another man, because they fancy the fun or to get him to pay for her luxury lifestyle.

    That's not exactly what we're talking about. The temptress/femme fatale stereotype uses sex to lure men to their doom, not merely to express a fit of pique or enjoy luxuries.
    Bond is a gentleman, and thus protective of women, even though he may not stay with them for long (due to his job). Those who think he's a misogynist basically fail to understand human nature.

    I basically agree, but I'm not sure how many people outside this message board would (not even Daniel Craig!), especially since "misogyny" is now being used in place of "sexist," which certainly can apply to the Bond films.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited February 2018 Posts: 23,883
    Just watching MR. I can't believe I've never noticed this before, but one of the pilots flying the Boeing in the PTS is played by the same actor who played the naval officer who tries to infiltrate the Liparus's control room in TSWLM and is killed. His name is Kim Fortune.

    I'm shocked I didn't previously make the connection, because he had a reasonably noticeable part in the earlier film.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Yes, he's not to great at surviving.

    Like Sean Bean and Kenny from South Park.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Hang and dress me on this one: after Bond sends Grant into the Big Sleep, Bond fixes his tie with his right hand;

    I never noticed the blood (or bruises) on Bond's hand.
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