I've never noticed that before...

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  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    I reckon we have had this conversation before Brady ;).

    It may have something to do with when we were brought up and where Bond was at the time. There was a time when the know it all Bond was where it was at, and audiences liked their Bond that way. But even Moore's Bond got angry, killed in cold blood and lashed out at the occasional woman. He may have been a superman, but he still had a heart and a soul. As Fleming intended.

    Sadly though I see no real point in hankering too much after Fleming's Bond because the guy isn't all that relevant to cinema Bond. He's just a reference point, a place to start from.

    I read that Dalton is great because he is Fleming's Bond from the slight build to the sincere attitude. But what's the point if women don't fancy him because of his build? Where's the box office in that?

    Besides which when I re-read Goldfinger and Casino Royale recently with a polite Bond calling the ladies 'darling', and having a cool demeanour around the villains I couldn't detect much of Dalton, but plenty of Connery and Moore.

  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    NicNac wrote: »
    I reckon we have had this conversation before Brady ;).

    It may have something to do with when we were brought up and where Bond was at the time. There was a time when the know it all Bond was where it was at, and audiences liked their Bond that way. But even Moore's Bond got angry, killed in cold blood and lashed out at the occasional woman. He may have been a superman, but he still had a heart and a soul. As Fleming intended.

    Sadly though I see no real point in hankering too much after Fleming's Bond because the guy isn't all that relevant to cinema Bond. He's just a reference point, a place to start from.

    I read that Dalton is great because he is Fleming's Bond from the slight build to the sincere attitude. But what's the point if women don't fancy him because of his build? Where's the box office in that?

    Besides which when I re-read Goldfinger and Casino Royale recently with a polite Bond calling the ladies 'darling', and having a cool demeanour around the villains I couldn't detect much of Dalton, but plenty of Connery and Moore.

    The importance of cinematic Bond vs. Fleming Bond is relevant depending on who you talk to, but there must be a connection in the fact that a good number of the films looked upon favorably by fans and casuals alike are those that reflect Fleming exponentially more than they do the cinematic Bond, while the films you'd expect to see at the bottom of lists are very reflective of cinematic Bond and where EON took things too far in that caricature and/or parody.

    I don't really get the point about Dalton and his build (we're talking the svelte frame?) as a blockade to box office draw. Every Bond actor has a different thing about them that would attract a crowd, but I don't think it's quite fair to discount a man for how he looks, or claim that it cost the films money or appeal because of it. Brosnan was just as meek in build, and at times out of shape looking, but we don't harp on that, nor do we with Roger's mounting wrinkles or how Sean got progressively pudgy through YOLT and DAF until he looked about two decades older than he was at the start of the 70s.

    More important factors can explain a lack of box office draw, and they're usually creative moves and the tone of the eras. There's not much box office draw in repeating the plot of Goldfinger over and over, but EON did that, in addition to not reinventing enough at crucial points, so we could discuss the shortcomings all day. We could even argue why the draw wasn't as there for Dalton, and a likely hypothesis is in dealing with the cinematic Bond: EON got so in the motions of making the films to formula that when a new guy came around who wanted to play a man instead of an icon or symbol, they didn't take to it because they had over a decade of the same thing to morph their perceptions about Bond. Dalton was jarring, as was how the films tried to move away from Moore's tone (not enough for me, though) and I think that lent to a bad perception of it; it certainly wasn't Dalton's body.

    As for Sean and Moore reflecting parts of Fleming's Bond that Dalton didn't, that wasn't what I was arguing (I don't think anyone was?). That being said, I've been quite vocal about how I don't think Dalton own's the title of Fleming's Bond, and for everything that he is given credit for bringing out from the original, I could point to an ample amount for Sean or Dan as well. But again, I don't think that's a relevant point. This all started with me simply making the assumption that Bond's flat in SP was just being moved back into, and how it got here I'm not too sure.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    edited October 2017 Posts: 7,582
    The thing about Dalton's build wasn't meant to suggest that this was the overriding factor. Just making the point that we keep reading how Dalton captured Fleming's Bond so perfectly, and therefore he is rated so highly by Bond fans. But, at the end of the day it's box office that counts, and people will go to see the person they like the most, not the one who looks most like Fleming's Bond.

    And, apologies for going off on a tangent ;)
  • Posts: 7,415
    NicNac wrote: »
    I reckon we have had this conversation before Brady ;).

    It may have something to do with when we were brought up and where Bond was at the time. There was a time when the know it all Bond was where it was at, and audiences liked their Bond that way. But even Moore's Bond got angry, killed in cold blood and lashed out at the occasional woman. He may have been a superman, but he still had a heart and a soul. As Fleming intended.

    Sadly though I see no real point in hankering too much after Fleming's Bond because the guy isn't all that relevant to cinema Bond. He's just a reference point, a place to start from.

    I read that Dalton is great because he is Fleming's Bond from the slight build to the sincere attitude. But what's the point if women don't fancy him because of his build? Where's the box office in that?

    Besides which when I re-read Goldfinger and Casino Royale recently with a polite Bond calling the ladies 'darling', and having a cool demeanour around the villains I couldn't detect much of Dalton, but plenty of Connery and Moore.

    Yeh right, we should really forget about that bloke Fleming! I mean what did he really do after all?
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    NicNac wrote: »
    I reckon we have had this conversation before Brady ;).

    It may have something to do with when we were brought up and where Bond was at the time. There was a time when the know it all Bond was where it was at, and audiences liked their Bond that way. But even Moore's Bond got angry, killed in cold blood and lashed out at the occasional woman. He may have been a superman, but he still had a heart and a soul. As Fleming intended.

    Sadly though I see no real point in hankering too much after Fleming's Bond because the guy isn't all that relevant to cinema Bond. He's just a reference point, a place to start from.

    I read that Dalton is great because he is Fleming's Bond from the slight build to the sincere attitude. But what's the point if women don't fancy him because of his build? Where's the box office in that?

    Besides which when I re-read Goldfinger and Casino Royale recently with a polite Bond calling the ladies 'darling', and having a cool demeanour around the villains I couldn't detect much of Dalton, but plenty of Connery and Moore.

    Yeh right, we should really forget about that bloke Fleming! I mean what did he really do after all?

    Exactly @Mathis1, the very point I was clearly making.
  • Posts: 386
    I've never really noticed Domino's "slashed" see-through swimsuit from her opening scene.

    Dunno why. Maybe it was the distraction of that burly guy sprinting as fast as he can just to perform the menial task of tethering Domino's boat.

    Sean looks like he's having a lot of fun in TB.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,250
    GetCarter wrote: »
    I've never really noticed Domino's "slashed" see-through swimsuit from her opening scene.

    Dunno why. Maybe it was the distraction of that burly guy sprinting as fast as he can just to perform the menial task of tethering Domino's boat.

    Sean looks like he's having a lot of fun in TB.

    Who wouldn't! Connery having fun, Domino, Volpe, SPECTRE at it's best. Thunderball is the best ;-)
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Watch Bond flicking his cuffs when Goldfinger tells him to sit down (for a Mint Julep). He's pissed, and I love it.
  • Posts: 1,917
    GetCarter wrote: »
    I've never really noticed Domino's "slashed" see-through swimsuit from her opening scene.

    Dunno why. Maybe it was the distraction of that burly guy sprinting as fast as he can just to perform the menial task of tethering Domino's boat.

    Sean looks like he's having a lot of fun in TB.

    Who wouldn't! Connery having fun, Domino, Volpe, SPECTRE at it's best. Thunderball is the best ;-)

    +1
  • edited October 2017 Posts: 386
    Just watched TSWLM again, and Moore's performance struck me as fairly dour and tough by his usual twinkle-eyed standards.

    Was surprised by his frowny grittiness in what is very much known as a "popcorn" Bond film.

    His performances just get better and better IMO.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    I quite agree @GetCarter . For years I saw the film as a fun entry and didn't take proper note of Moore's performance. It's only after joining this forum and analyzing the films in more detail did I detect a marked overall seriousness in his performance in TSWLM.

    Of course there is still the well known humour and perfectly placed (and delivered) lines but it's done with a more serious tone & approach than in later outings. The Lotus chase is a perfect example. "I know, don't tell me" coexists beautifully with "ever get the feeling somebody doesn't like you" & "all those feathers and he still can't fly".

    Moore is a Bond 'on a mission' in this film, fully aware of the seriousness of the threat.
  • Posts: 386
    Yep, spot on @bondjames
  • MooseWithFleasMooseWithFleas Philadelphia
    Posts: 3,369
    There is a Bollinger champagne bucket on the plane of the opening scene in MR. Pretty sure we see the same exact bucket when Bond meets Holly in her Venice hotel room.
  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,133
    There is a Bollinger champagne bucket on the plane of the opening scene in MR. Pretty sure we see the same exact bucket when Bond meets Holly in her Venice hotel room.

    Well Bollinger are credited during the credits. Stands to reason that their Champagne be featured at appropriate times throughout the movie. Product placement is a massive deal for these companies
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,779
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    subliminal only worked, if you've already bought one ? ;-)
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,250

    to me it seems there's three different ones tbh.
  • Lancaster007Lancaster007 Shrublands Health Clinic, England
    Posts: 1,874
    I just amazed Bond didn't start crying after such a hurtful remark from Moneypenny , after
    all she talks to M and must know about Bond's interior design tips.

    I love that Bod cares so little about inviting someone to his messy apartment, showing he doesn't give a damn about any of it. It's how I picture Bond to be personality wise, and feels more in line with the character and the feeling I get from him than either of the apartments for Sean or Roger's Bonds, with Roger's place feeling more pedestrian and favorable and Sean's too richly adorned.

    In reality I think Bond's home would be as it is in SP, pretty barren beyond the essentials because he wouldn't be home enough to use any of it, and when someone did come around (which wouldn't be too often) he wouldn't care about what they thought of it.

    Bond of the books had a fairly neat apartment, and even his own Housekeeper, a Scottish treasure name May. With his fussy habits and wishing to have things to his liking, wether it be food, drink, women or weapons (he is a bit of snob) then I can't see him living in a messy apartment. Just doesn't fit the (literary) character. IMO.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,250
    I just amazed Bond didn't start crying after such a hurtful remark from Moneypenny , after
    all she talks to M and must know about Bond's interior design tips.

    I love that Bod cares so little about inviting someone to his messy apartment, showing he doesn't give a damn about any of it. It's how I picture Bond to be personality wise, and feels more in line with the character and the feeling I get from him than either of the apartments for Sean or Roger's Bonds, with Roger's place feeling more pedestrian and favorable and Sean's too richly adorned.

    In reality I think Bond's home would be as it is in SP, pretty barren beyond the essentials because he wouldn't be home enough to use any of it, and when someone did come around (which wouldn't be too often) he wouldn't care about what they thought of it.

    Bond of the books had a fairly neat apartment, and even his own Housekeeper, a Scottish treasure name May. With his fussy habits and wishing to have things to his liking, wether it be food, drink, women or weapons (he is a bit of snob) then I can't see him living in a messy apartment. Just doesn't fit the (literary) character. IMO.

    True, but I also think this translates not too good to modern-day living. As far as i knowm few civil servants can afford a housekeeper, and just a cleaning lady at home wouldn't work. I do agree however that he would take care of his appartment. I don't think his answer to Moneypenny is sincere, it's more of a joke.
  • Posts: 19,339
    I just amazed Bond didn't start crying after such a hurtful remark from Moneypenny , after
    all she talks to M and must know about Bond's interior design tips.

    I love that Bod cares so little about inviting someone to his messy apartment, showing he doesn't give a damn about any of it. It's how I picture Bond to be personality wise, and feels more in line with the character and the feeling I get from him than either of the apartments for Sean or Roger's Bonds, with Roger's place feeling more pedestrian and favorable and Sean's too richly adorned.

    In reality I think Bond's home would be as it is in SP, pretty barren beyond the essentials because he wouldn't be home enough to use any of it, and when someone did come around (which wouldn't be too often) he wouldn't care about what they thought of it.

    Bond of the books had a fairly neat apartment, and even his own Housekeeper, a Scottish treasure name May. With his fussy habits and wishing to have things to his liking, wether it be food, drink, women or weapons (he is a bit of snob) then I can't see him living in a messy apartment. Just doesn't fit the (literary) character. IMO.

    True, but I also think this translates not too good to modern-day living. As far as i knowm few civil servants can afford a housekeeper, and just a cleaning lady at home wouldn't work. I do agree however that he would take care of his appartment. I don't think his answer to Moneypenny is sincere, it's more of a joke.

    Agreed,i think it's tongue-in-cheek.
    You can see by the slight smirk on his face if you look quick enough.

  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    I just amazed Bond didn't start crying after such a hurtful remark from Moneypenny , after
    all she talks to M and must know about Bond's interior design tips.

    I love that Bod cares so little about inviting someone to his messy apartment, showing he doesn't give a damn about any of it. It's how I picture Bond to be personality wise, and feels more in line with the character and the feeling I get from him than either of the apartments for Sean or Roger's Bonds, with Roger's place feeling more pedestrian and favorable and Sean's too richly adorned.

    In reality I think Bond's home would be as it is in SP, pretty barren beyond the essentials because he wouldn't be home enough to use any of it, and when someone did come around (which wouldn't be too often) he wouldn't care about what they thought of it.

    Bond of the books had a fairly neat apartment, and even his own Housekeeper, a Scottish treasure name May. With his fussy habits and wishing to have things to his liking, wether it be food, drink, women or weapons (he is a bit of snob) then I can't see him living in a messy apartment. Just doesn't fit the (literary) character. IMO.

    Yes, I'm familiar with all that (going through the books now), but I haven't ever read a detailed description of Bond's apartment yet. Certainly in that day a cleaner house was the style, whereas in the current age I don't think that matters much. But if Craig's Bond had a housekeeper, his home would be clean regardless, so it's hard to tell how the literary Bond's house would be kept without May around.
  • Posts: 17,753
    Am I strange for liking Bond's apartment in SP? A bit messy yes, but I also have the habit of having a few stacks of books lying around on the floor, so it felt a bit familiar. Also have a couple framed posters placed next to the wall a well.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Am I strange for liking Bond's apartment in SP? A bit messy yes, but I also have the habit of having a few stacks of books lying around on the floor, so it felt a bit familiar. Also have a couple framed posters placed next to the wall a well.

    I love it. I think it's a great snapshot of this Bond's personality, and how his home would really be. Whether or not what we see is Bond moving back into his old place post-SF, I think we can all agree that Craig Bond wouldn't be the type to be into decoration or anything like that. He'd have the necessities, but not care for all the other trinkets and superfluous things others do.

    One of the reasons I like SP is that it uses visuals or setting to convey things about the characters we have sensed before. An interesting character building technique. The apartment in SP tells me more about this Bond than the one in DN or LALD tells me, let's say, and it backs up what we already know about Craig Bond's personality. He's take his time getting his things set up and he wouldn't care about what people thought about his "messy" flat. To quote him in CR, you imagine him saying, "Does it look like I give a damn?"
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    what about the outright violence in TB's final underwater sequence? Holy s***, from the stabbing visuals, to the sound effects... It was wonderfully disgusting.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    peter wrote: »
    what about the outright violence in TB's final underwater sequence? Holy s***, from the stabbing visuals, to the sound effects... It was wonderfully disgusting.

    @peter, outside of the poor shark getting hit, I really love that about the ending. It feels like real men are dying, and the blood effects really make an impact and add so much consequence to it all. A top 10 finale, easily.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    yes, @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7 , it was visceral... The SFX were awesome, adding to the impact!
  • BondAficionadoBondAficionado Former IMDBer
    Posts: 1,889
    Since we're speaking about TB's finale... just wanted to say that I adore the shot of Largo moving his blood-soaked knife towards the camera. The manner in which the blood drifts off is morbidly poetic. :)
  • Posts: 17,753
    One of the reasons I like SP is that it uses visuals or setting to convey things about the characters we have sensed before. An interesting character building technique. The apartment in SP tells me more about this Bond than the one in DN or LALD tells me, let's say, and it backs up what we already know about Craig Bond's personality. He's take his time getting his things set up and he wouldn't care about what people thought about his "messy" flat. To quote him in CR, you imagine him saying, "Does it look like I give a damn?"
    It really does tell a lot about Crag's Bond. Then again, we know so much more about this Bond than Connery's or Moore's Bond. Of course, a few things are to be noted from those two Bond's too:

    Bond-Dr.-No-Apartment-Car-Prints.jpg?resize=300%2C248
    Bond likes cars...

    cb677fb329c1cf144a33cc5441d6aff8.png
    ...And Bond likes his coffee – making a great deal of effort in making it, as well. :D
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    I always crack up at Bond's apartment in LALD. It's so 70's but also so Moore Bond imho.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    One of the reasons I like SP is that it uses visuals or setting to convey things about the characters we have sensed before. An interesting character building technique. The apartment in SP tells me more about this Bond than the one in DN or LALD tells me, let's say, and it backs up what we already know about Craig Bond's personality. He's take his time getting his things set up and he wouldn't care about what people thought about his "messy" flat. To quote him in CR, you imagine him saying, "Does it look like I give a damn?"
    It really does tell a lot about Crag's Bond. Then again, we know so much more about this Bond than Connery's or Moore's Bond. Of course, a few things are to be noted from those two Bond's too:

    Bond-Dr.-No-Apartment-Car-Prints.jpg?resize=300%2C248
    Bond likes cars...

    I just treat a lot of Sean's Bond's personality as Fleming's character. I think he conveys the original's sensibilities well, and reflects his traits and interests.
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