Congratulations US of A, with fully legalizing gay marriage :-)!

124

Comments

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2015 Posts: 23,883
    I think it's important in these circumstances not to inject one's personal morality into the discussion. The Supreme Court used a constitutional and legal rationale for its decision. I just happen to agree with it, morally. I'm quite sure many of the judges on the Court abhor homosexuality, but they are not there to pass moral judgement.....rather discuss the case on the legal & constitutional merits.

    Unless someone can show me otherwise, their rationale/justification applies to incestuous and polygamous relationships as well. The only difference is that it is not culturally acceptable yet.

    That is completely different from how I may feel about the activity itself.

    I can assure you, in 20 odd years, someone will want to marry an artificial robot because he/she loves it. The robot may be able to 'love' back too. That will will be an interesting discussion to have.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,797
    bondjames wrote: »
    Unless someone can show me otherwise, their rationale/justification applies to incestuous and polygamous relationships as well. The only difference is that it is not culturally acceptable yet.
    I am forced to agree with my esteemed colleague's legal interpretation here.
  • Posts: 342
    bondjames wrote: »
    Of course the USA is one of the best countries to live in, and one of the least undemocratic countries on Earth. All I am saying is that it isn't democratic. Not when there is a pretty good chance that the next presidential election will be a contest between a Bush and a Clinton.

    Also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6K9dS9wl7U

    Good point. It's the country where 'capitalism' is at its most advanced and most rampant.....and elections are increasingly 'bought' courtesy, ironically, of an idiotic "Supreme Court" decision which said that Corporations essentially have the same rights as citizens when it comes to campaign contributions!

    I have had many discussions with those who instinctively confuse capitalism with democracy. A mistake imho.

    This is an interesting read on the inherent corruption of democracy by money:
    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Best-Democracy-Money-Investigative-Globalization/dp/1841197149
  • Posts: 1,987
    What changed? Not a thing, except that same sex couple who've been living together as a married couple now have a legal document saying they are married. Had SCOTUS not ruled in favor of same sex marriage, that couple would still be living together. The ruling does not create more homosexuals, it just allows them to marry if they choose.

    Just as the ruling will not encourage more people to engage in incestuous or polygamous relationships. Those things have always gone on will continue to with or without the ruling. If such relationships are headed for the altar, then the courts can decide if they are acceptable or not. The idea that the ruling now means anything goes is typical of the fear mongering that is continually used by bigots. Equating homosexuality and same sex marriage as some kind of perversion is itself a perversion. None of us chose our sexual orientation any more than we had a choice about our sex, eye color, or height. No one says, "I think I'll be gay because the bigotry I'll face will be fun."

    As a heterosexual, it is all but impossible for me to understand same sex attraction. But then I find it equally challenging to understand conservatism and a belief in God. And so I accept those things, even if I don't understand them. And yes, I have good friends who are gay, conservative, and have a deep and abiding faith -- in some cases, all wrapped into one. Can I be offended by homosexuals? Absolutely! Just as I can by anyone of any sex, orientation, or political and philosophical persuasion. I have yet to find that place on the planet where everyone is exactly like me.

    In the end, the constitution wasn't hijacked and democracy hasn't gone to hell in a hand basket. All that happened is that same sex couple next door who have been living together for years now have a document granting them the legal status enjoyed
    by their married neighbors.





  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,271
    How can incest between sisters be an issue? They cannot have any genetic offspring.

    Don't give them any ideas, just in case.
  • Posts: 15,117
    @CrabKey - You sum it up perfectly.
  • SarkSark Guangdong, PRC
    Posts: 1,138
    Those who've pooh-poohed Gustav talking about living in enlightened liberal democracies should think about the real world alternatives being presented today. The challengers to liberal democracy today are nationalist authoritarianism (exemplified by China and Russia) and theocracy (best represented by ISIS and Iran, but with plenty of imitators). Surely we can agree that we don't want either of those ideologies gaining more influence.
  • CatchingBulletsCatchingBullets facebook.com/catchingbullets
    Posts: 292
    Well as someone who has just married his best friend and now husband at Pinewood Studios (and was the first to do so) in this now very special Pride June month I can assure you that this is one of THE civil rights victories of our times.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited June 2015 Posts: 18,271
    Sark wrote: »
    Those who've pooh-poohed Gustav talking about living in enlightened liberal democracies should think about the real world alternatives being presented today. The challengers to liberal democracy today are nationalist authoritarianism (exemplified by China and Russia) and theocracy (best represented by ISIS and Iran, but with plenty of imitators). Surely we can agree that we don't want either of those ideologies gaining more influence.

    Certainly not, when you put it like that. Give me liberal democracy over those or any other alternative one can conceive any day.
  • SarkSark Guangdong, PRC
    Posts: 1,138
    Well as someone who has just married his best friend and now husband at Pinewood Studios (and was the first to do so) in this now very special Pride June month I can assure you that this is one of THE civil rights victories of our times.

    Wow, pretty amazing to be able to do that at Pinewood studios. Congratulations!

  • Posts: 15,117
    Well as someone who has just married his best friend and now husband at Pinewood Studios (and was the first to do so) in this now very special Pride June month I can assure you that this is one of THE civil rights victories of our times.

    congrats!

    And, I might add, what a venue!
  • Posts: 7,653
    Well as someone who has just married his best friend and now husband at Pinewood Studios (and was the first to do so) in this now very special Pride June month I can assure you that this is one of THE civil rights victories of our times.

    congratulations to the couple.

  • Posts: 4,619
    Sark wrote: »
    Those who've pooh-poohed Gustav talking about living in enlightened liberal democracies should think about the real world alternatives being presented today. The challengers to liberal democracy today are nationalist authoritarianism (exemplified by China and Russia) and theocracy (best represented by ISIS and Iran, but with plenty of imitators). Surely we can agree that we don't want either of those ideologies gaining more influence.

    The United States of America is not a democracy.
    http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-echochambers-27074746
  • SarkSark Guangdong, PRC
    Posts: 1,138
    Compared to a dictionary or an ideal it's not. Compared to the rest of the world, it's way ahead of most countries.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Sark wrote: »
    Compared to a dictionary or an ideal it's not. Compared to the rest of the world, it's way ahead of most countries.
    Unquestionably @Sark.

    However, in my opinion, it is relatively falling behind other countries very fast. If you look at India, China, Russia, Brazil, etc., these countries are liberalizing quite quickly (yes, even Russia, even under Putin, is far more liberal than it was 25 yrs ago).

    Also, to be honest, I think one has more freedoms (of expression, of action, of thought, to criticize those in power and the government) in the UK than one does for all intents and purposes in the US/Canada. That was not something I felt when I was younger.

    I agree that I would prefer not to live in a nationalist autocracy or a theocracy......but I would prefer not to live in a corporatist society or neo-corporatism either, which effectively is the US situation currently.

    It is its relative decline (socially, financially, intellectually/education wise/common sense wise, leadership wise, and liberally) that troubles me. Other countries are catching up in these fields while the US is regressing, despite the recent Supreme Court decision.
  • Posts: 15,117
    Sark wrote: »
    Compared to a dictionary or an ideal it's not. Compared to the rest of the world, it's way ahead of most countries.

    Exactly. Utopias are just that, utopias. Another fancy word for fantasy. No nation is perfectly free or perfectly democratic.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,271
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Sark wrote: »
    Compared to a dictionary or an ideal it's not. Compared to the rest of the world, it's way ahead of most countries.

    Exactly. Utopias are just that, utopias. Another fancy word for fantasy. No nation is perfectly free or perfectly democratic.

    Indeed, rather true democracy is something that nations work towards perfecting. Some nations are further along that scale than others however...
  • Posts: 4,619
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Sark wrote: »
    Compared to a dictionary or an ideal it's not. Compared to the rest of the world, it's way ahead of most countries.

    Exactly. Utopias are just that, utopias. Another fancy word for fantasy. No nation is perfectly free or perfectly democratic.

    Indeed, rather true democracy is something that nations work towards perfecting. Some nations are further along that scale than others however...

    The US is becoming less and less democratic nowadays...
  • Posts: 11,119
    Sark wrote: »
    Compared to a dictionary or an ideal it's not. Compared to the rest of the world, it's way ahead of most countries.

    And that's the whole point I want to make. Thank you @Sark. I mean come on guys. Let's face that fact a bit more often, before we slam our own states until it really hurts the democracy.

  • Posts: 4,619
    Sark wrote: »
    Compared to a dictionary or an ideal it's not. Compared to the rest of the world, it's way ahead of most countries.

    And that's the whole point I want to make. Thank you @Sark. I mean come on guys. Let's face that fact a bit more often, before we slam our own states until it really hurts the democracy.

    Let's not pretend the USA is just as democratic and good as countries like Switzerland, Denmark or Canada! Recommended reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_regime_change_actions
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Sark wrote: »
    Compared to a dictionary or an ideal it's not. Compared to the rest of the world, it's way ahead of most countries.

    And that's the whole point I want to make. Thank you @Sark. I mean come on guys. Let's face that fact a bit more often, before we slam our own states until it really hurts the democracy.

    This is the part I don't quite agree with. Sure, we do ok compared to the rest of the world. We know that. It's stating the obvious. It has always been so.

    What is not so obvious is that we are in relative decline (freedom wise) compared to other nations, and it precisely because we are increasingly less able to speak our minds freely without consequence.

    Slamming our own states is fundamental to living in a democracy. It is what makes it thrive and improve. As I've said, I'm all for the Bradley Mannings, Edward Snowdens and Julian Assanges of the world. More power to them, in order to help our democracy survive and be accountable..
  • Posts: 11,119
    Sark wrote: »
    Compared to a dictionary or an ideal it's not. Compared to the rest of the world, it's way ahead of most countries.

    And that's the whole point I want to make. Thank you @Sark. I mean come on guys. Let's face that fact a bit more often, before we slam our own states until it really hurts the democracy.

    Let's not pretend the USA is just as democratic and good as countries like Switzerland, Denmark or Canada! Recommended reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_regime_change_actions

    That's why I posted below pictures/images on the first page of this topic. Is the USA as good as....Denmark or Switzerland....democratically? No:

    So, name a few states that are "better" in that sense then. And also a few that are "worse" in that sense. There are 196 countries on Earth you know. I am from The Netherlands, but I live in Spain. I try to think like this: Although the USA still has a long way to go, I can sum up like 140 countries in which you would be worse off than the USA.

    9dbPu0.jpg
    06BxaX.jpg

    But look at the countries that are below the USA.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,271
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Sark wrote: »
    Compared to a dictionary or an ideal it's not. Compared to the rest of the world, it's way ahead of most countries.

    Exactly. Utopias are just that, utopias. Another fancy word for fantasy. No nation is perfectly free or perfectly democratic.

    Indeed, rather true democracy is something that nations work towards perfecting. Some nations are further along that scale than others however...

    The US is becoming less and less democratic nowadays...

    Yes, countries sometimes move backwards too sadly.
  • Posts: 7,507
    Oh yes! Norway rules! \m/ \:D/

    Ironic then that in the US we are conidered to be 'socialists'... And we know of course that socialism automatically equals uncivilized, undemocratic vandalism... ;)
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,271
    jobo wrote: »
    Oh yes! Norway rules! \m/ \:D/

    Ironic then that in the US we are conidered to be 'socialists'... And we know of course that socialism automatically equals uncivilized, undemocratic vandalism... ;)

    The US is about 50 years behind the UK politically, hence anything that seeks to help ordinary people in the richest nation in the world is immediately shot down as being "socialism."
  • Posts: 1,987
    A majority of Americans are only adequately educated, not well-traveled, and are constantly indoctrinated to the notion that America is the greatest nation in the history of the world. For many it inconceivable that another country could offer as much or more than what is found in the U.S. Any such discussion is always met with "if it so good elsewhere, then move." Immune to self-examination or critique, nothing in the U.S. needs to change. The greatest healthcare system in the world is great for those who can afford it or have insurance. Opportunity is unlimited for those with means. Education is superb in some places.

    To be sure, America is a great nation with much to offer. But I have traveled a fair amount in Europe, and other than smaller homes with smaller appliances and perhaps oddly placed hot water heaters, I don't find much lacking as compared to the U.S. The U.S. can't even come close to European mass transit.

    Having moved to the U.S. from the U.K. when I was a kid, I don't get all caught up in this love of country stuff. I'm not into idolatry of countries, Gods, or even James Bond for that matter. I do not need to continually assert my nationality. I am a good
    American, not a zealot.

    I don't see the U.S. as regressing as much as I see a very vocal far right wing attempting
    to cast a much wider net. I get tired of their noise and their fear.

    At this point in my life, my concern is for my kids and grandchildren. I want for them an environmentally friendly world, one in which middle class kids can live comfortably, one in which the country they live in is not continually declaring war, and where they
    have an expectation they can live healthy and productive lives without living under
    an umbrella of fear.

    If all this sounds terribly idealistic, well, I am a product of the sixties. Things may not have turned out as we hoped they would, but we had dreams and hallucinations.






  • Seven_Point_Six_FiveSeven_Point_Six_Five Southern California
    Posts: 1,257
    I'm eager to see how the legalization of gay marriage will affect future elections in the US. I always felt gay marriage was one of those social issues that distracted from larger issues facing the US like its economy or the conflicts overseas. The presidential debates always felt like ridiculous game shows where candidates had to give vague opinions on abortion, drugs, and gay marriage. With gay marriage (theoretically) off the table, I'm hopeful politicians will have to move on to bigger and better things.
  • edited June 2015 Posts: 15,117
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Sark wrote: »
    Compared to a dictionary or an ideal it's not. Compared to the rest of the world, it's way ahead of most countries.

    Exactly. Utopias are just that, utopias. Another fancy word for fantasy. No nation is perfectly free or perfectly democratic.

    Indeed, rather true democracy is something that nations work towards perfecting. Some nations are further along that scale than others however...

    The US is becoming less and less democratic nowadays...

    To get back on topic, it is a little bit more today than it was yesterday.
    I'm eager to see how the legalization of gay marriage will affect future elections in the US. I always felt gay marriage was one of those social issues that distracted from larger issues facing the US like its economy or the conflicts overseas. The presidential debates always felt like ridiculous game shows where candidates had to give vague opinions on abortion, drugs, and gay marriage. With gay marriage (theoretically) off the table, I'm hopeful politicians will have to move on to bigger and better things.

    I think equality in front of the law is an essential issue. Social issues are not mere distractions! And how society and justice is run, how we behave as citizens towards one another influences other issues, such as economic ones.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2015 Posts: 23,883
    I'm eager to see how the legalization of gay marriage will affect future elections in the US. I always felt gay marriage was one of those social issues that distracted from larger issues facing the US like its economy or the conflicts overseas. The presidential debates always felt like ridiculous game shows where candidates had to give vague opinions on abortion, drugs, and gay marriage. With gay marriage (theoretically) off the table, I'm hopeful politicians will have to move on to bigger and better things.

    Yes, it definitely seems like they keep retreading the same old stuff over and over again and it distracts from the larger issues facing the country (like income inequality, fewer well paying jobs and lack of opportunity for instance).

    Hopefully we're done with this topic, as well as Obamacare (approved by the Supreme Court) and abortion for now....
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,797
    Education? Infrastructure? Campaign finance? The 1% paying their fair share of taxes? De-fanging big oil, big pharma, the NRA? Climate change? Fixing police corruption? Lowering expenditures that keep the Military Industrial Complex in the big bucks (and us in constant wars) and re-investing in social policies that would ensure all kids have a chance to live out from under poverty & hunger?
    Screw all that, I'm an Uhmurkin! I want the latest news on how big Kim Kardashian's butt is & whether Bruce really had it cut all the way off...

    :))
Sign In or Register to comment.